LA and Gestalt [Archive] - Wizards Community

LA and Gestalt [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Riznar
03-31-04, 11:55 AM Somewhere here people were talking about how mixing LAs and Gestalt progressions wasn't a good idea...but I don't really see how it could be overpowered anymore than other Gestalt characters.

I mean, a Half Celestial I could understand the argument for, but it still seems limited by the same thing all characters are, actions. Plus I don't see how taking 4 levels of another class wouldn't be better...

PS: This for a character I wanted to play when I was thinking about this, not optimized at all:
Sorcerer 1 / Aasimar
Sorcerer 2 / Aasimar Paragon 1
Sorcerer 3 / Winged Template 1
Sorcerer 4 / Aasimar Paragon 2
Sorcerer 5 / Winged Template 2
Sorcerer 6 / Aasimar Paragon 3
Veton
03-31-04, 03:43 PM Well, basically the thing is this:

In a Gestalt campaign, levels matter even more. So a character with a level adjustment in a Gestalt campaign is going to be underpowered unless you let him buy off his LA.
Flitt
04-02-04, 11:22 PM Well, I've read up on this in other topics, and since this is the most recent, I'd like to put up my opinions and hopefully get some feedback.

Obviously, allowing the gestalt of a standard class and a level adjustment completely unbalances the campaign. All of the drawbacks of a level adjustment are removed if you are allowed to gain a hit die and the resulting attack and save bonus at the same time that you gain a level adjustment.

The somewhat accepted idea is that you may only gestalt at levels where your monster would otherwise gain a hit die. For example, if you were to be a monster that had 2 hit dice and a level adjustment of +2, you would be able to be a 2nd level gestalt character (class/racial hit dice) with a level adjustment of +2.

Compared to a normal character, this would be very powerful. However, compared to a gestalt character, it is underpowered.

My idea is this. You may only gain a hit dice and the benefits that come with it such as attack bonus, saves, feats and skills at the levels where the monster would gain a racial level. But you would still gain the abilities of the class every level adjustment.

This seems more balanced to me.

At each level where you would gain the hit dice of the monster, you can choose whether the saves, attack and skills are from the class or the monster and then all of the abilities. At the levels where it is just an adjustment, you still get the abilities of the class that you are gestalting with.

For example.

An Ogre (4 hit dice, +2 LA) that has been gestalted with fighter would have 4d10 hit dice (from the fighter) saves of 4/1/1 (same for both fighter and ogre) max skill ranks of 7, and 2 feats from levels (1st and 3rd hit dice).

It would then have +5 NA, +10 Str, +4 Con, -2 Dex, -4 Int, and -4 Cha, and would be a large creature from all of the Ogre levels.

It would then have 4 feats from fighter, not 3 as it would if it were only allowed to gestalt at levels where it gained a hit dice.

For the ogre, this isn't much of a difference, but for monsters with higher level adjustments, and especially for monsters with spellcasting classes, this would allow them to keep up with their gestalting companions without overpowering them.

Thoughts?

Just thought of another way to explain this. A level adjustment is generally worth the lost hit die. So basically, when you're gestalting with it, you're saying that the level adjustment has the better hit die, attack, save, skills, etc. Since it doesn't actually have any of those, that is why you only get the abilities of the class and not the rest.
Tywyll
04-06-04, 03:18 AM Originally posted by Flitt

Obviously, allowing the gestalt of a standard class and a level adjustment completely unbalances the campaign. All of the drawbacks of a level adjustment are removed if you are allowed to gain a hit die and the resulting attack and save bonus at the same time that you gain a level adjustment.

The somewhat accepted idea is that you may only gestalt at levels where your monster would otherwise gain a hit die. For example, if you were to be a monster that had 2 hit dice and a level adjustment of +2, you would be able to be a 2nd level gestalt character (class/racial hit dice) with a level adjustment of +2.

Compared to a normal character, this would be very powerful. However, compared to a gestalt character, it is underpowered.

...

Just thought of another way to explain this. A level adjustment is generally worth the lost hit die. So basically, when you're gestalting with it, you're saying that the level adjustment has the better hit die, attack, save, skills, etc. Since it doesn't actually have any of those, that is why you only get the abilities of the class and not the rest.

I don't think its "obvious" that allowing mixing of ECL and Class levels in Gestalt completely unbalance the campaign. Compare the relative power of a 4th level Half-Celestial Wizard vs a Human 4/4 Barbarian Wizard. The HC special abilities won't compensate him for the lower HP, saves, skills that the Human has.

I've allowed some PCs to mix LA with Gestalting levels, and they aren't producing characters any more effective than their fellows (sometimes less so, sometimes with a few added beneies). The main benefit is getting HP when they normally shouldn't, but that is a small benefit.

Its like you said in the last paragraph: mixing Gestalt with LA is like blending with a class that has nothing in the categories you are combining, so you take only the beneies of one class... at least for a few levels.
Machiel_WarriorofDarkness
04-06-04, 04:04 AM I'd have to agree with Tywll here. LA's are supposed to reflect an ECL. If you have a normal level 10 character going against a level 6 half-celestial, the half-celestial is by no means "obviously" has the upper hand. They are both ECL 10, so that means that they should be equivalent. When gestalting this does not change. The main benefit of gestalting is taking two different class levels for every upgrade. When you have an LA taking up one slot, you are, in fact, limiting the overall power of your character.

To be honest, gestalting with LA's is probably more balancing than a regular ECL. The power of a character isn't so much his stats or spell-like abilities, which is the main thing that creatures with LA's enhance. The true power of a character is in his feats and class abilities. When you pit a character with multiple class abilites against one with only a few, but higher stats, then the one with the fewer abilities is at a disadvantage even though it attempts to make up for it with it's higher stats.

This is JMHO. If this thread is still going on when I get this one game really started I'll give some feedback. I've got a few characters with LA's involved. And it is at a high level, so we'll really get a good look at how balancing/unbalancing it should be. From looks alone, they seem to be balanced, but as it was said earlier, the best way to know for sure is play-testing.
Flitt
04-06-04, 03:08 PM Compare the relative power of a 4th level Half-Celestial Wizard vs. a Human 4/4 Barbarian Wizard.

How about I compare a Half Celestial/Sorcerer to a Barbarian/Sorcerer? I can't, by any stretch of the imagination conceive of a barbarian/wizard. x.0 And it really doesn't put the Half Celestial's benefits to good use.

Barbarian/Sorcerer

Ability Scores

Str 13
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 16 (Base 15 +1 from level)

HP 4d12 + 8 (Average 38)
Base Attack +4
Saves are Fort +6, Ref +2, Will +1 or Fort +3, Ref +2, Will +4
4 Skills at full ranks, Choosing from either the barbarian list or the wizard list.
Speed 40 ft.
AC 11 (+1 Dex)
Abilities:
Rage 2/day (+4 Str/Con, +2 Will, -2 AC) cannot cast spells while in rage.
Fast Movement
Uncanny Dodge
Trap Sense +1
Familiar
Feats: 3 (1 from human, 2 from level)

Spells:
6/7/4 per day Base DC is 12 + Spell Level

Now for the Sorcerer/Half Celestial

Ability Scores:

Str 17 (base 13 +4 from race)
Dex 14 (Base 12 +2 from race)
Con 18 (Base 14 +4 from race)
Int 10 (Base 8 +2 from race)
Wis 14 (Base 10 +4 from race)
Cha 20 (Base 15 +4 from race +1 from level)

HP 4d4 + 16 (Average 26)
Base Attack +2
Saves are Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +6 (+4 Fort Save vs. Poison)
2 skills at full ranks choosing from the sorcerer class list
Speed 30 ft. FLY (Good) 60 ft.
AC 13 (+2 Dex, +1 Natural)
Abilities:
Familiar
Smite Evil 1/day for +4 damage
Darkvision 60 ft
Immune to Disease
Acid, Cold and Electricity Resistance 10
Damage Reduction 5/magic
Spell Resistance 14
Spell Like Abilities:
Daylight at will
Protection from Evil 3/day
Aid, Bless and Detect Evil 1/day
Feats 2 (both from levels)

Spells
6/8/4 per day Base DC is 15 + Spell Level

So lets compare them, shall we.

In terms of ability scores, the half celestial has the advantage. Even when the barbarian goes into rage, that only brings his Str and Con equal to the half celestial, and it only lasts for a short time.

The Barbarian/Sorcerer has 12 more hp on average. His die type is larger, but the Half Celestial/Sorcerer’s higher Con helps to close the gap. When enraged, the Barbarian gains an extra 8 HP because of his increased Con, for 46 HP vs. the Half Celestial's 26 HP. Of course, those extra HPs go away.

However, despite the higher HP of the Barbarian mix, the Half Celestial is much tougher and can take more punishment. Why is that, you ask?

At 4th level, the Half Celestial has damage reduction 5/magic. Let’s take a look at some of the CR 5 Monsters in the Monster Manual: Some of them can get through that. The majority can't. Most equivalent level characters will have a weapon that can bypass it. But it's definitely better than nothing is, which is what the Barbarian/Sorcerer has.

The Half Celestial also has spell resistance 14. It's not overwhelmingly high, but it still means that an equivalent level caster has to roll a 10 or higher. An equivalent level caster doesn't even half to roll for the Barbarian mix.

Then, the Half Celestial has elemental resistances: Acid, Cold and Electricity 10. So, if they get by his spell resistance, they have to get past the elemental resistance too.

The Barbarian/Sorcerer has a higher base attack bonus (+4 vs. +2) however the Half Celestial/Sorcerer has higher Str and Dex. Because of this, their melee attacks will have the same attack bonus of +5 (+4 BAB +1 Str; +2 BAB, +3 Str) while the barbarian has the edge in ranged with a +5 (+4 BAB, +1 Dex) compared to the half-celestial with a +4 (+2 BAB, +2 Dex).

When in rage, he jumps ahead in melee, leading with a +7 to the attack compared to the half celestial who stays at +5. Of course, while the barbarian is raging, the half celestial can just cast true strike, which the barbarian could cast, if he wasn't so busy frothing at the mouth.

The Barbarian wins as far as skills go, 4 skills to the Half Celestial's 2.

Lets assume that they both buy Knowledge Arcana and Spellcraft, since those are very important for a spellcaster. Lets also assume that the barbarian takes Climb and Survival as his other two skills.

So, the half celestial will have higher checks for Arcana and Spellcraft because of it's increased Int. The barbarian will have a Climb check of 8 (+7 ranks, +1 Str) and a Survival Check of 7 (+7 ranks, +0 Wis). The Half Celestial will have a climb check of 3 (+3 Str) and a Survival Check of 2 (+2 Wis). The barbarian wins, but only because of the skill ranks, and the gap isn't as big as it could be. In anything that they don't have ranks in, the half celestial has the advantage, because his ability scores are higher than the barbarian's are.

Saves! The Half Celestial has 5/3/6 while the barbarian has 6/2/1 or 3/2/4. If using the second set of saves, the barbarian will have equivalent saves to the half celestial, but only when in rage. If using the first set, the barbarian's fort save wins, but his will save can't even try to compete. Either way, the barbarian will still have a lower reflex save. Just remember though, that the half celestial is immune to disease, so he doesn't have to make fort saves for that. And the half celestial has a +4 Fort Save vs. Poison. The barbarian does have a +1 vs. traps though.

As far as land speed goes, the barbarian wins. But the half celestial can fly faster than the barbarian can walk. Sure, the barbarian can learn the fly spell, in a couple of levels, and if he wants to waste a known spell on it. Wings don't have a duration.

With an Armor class of 13, the Half Celestial beats the Barbarian's AC or 11, 9 when in rage. Either one of them could wear armor with it's accompanying spell failure chance, or use the same armor enhancing spell, so I won't even worry about that. The barbarian has uncanny dodge, a nice ability. If the Half Celestial loses his Dex bonus, his AC drops to be the same as the Barbarian. Of course, the barbarian can't be sneak attacked in that situation.

They both have the same choice of familiar, so that's not an issue for comparison.

The Barbarian has 1 more feat because of his race. So, the advantage is his. He could take Power Attack with that, which he would be able to use to better effect because of his higher base attack bonus. But for the most part, the same feats are available to both of them and give them both the same benefits.

The half celestial has several spell like abilities and more spells per day because of his higher Charisma. The save DC for his spells is higher.

Overall, the half celestial/sorcerer owns the barbarian. The gap isn't as big as I was imagining, but it is still there.

Now lets give our two competitors each a level in barbarian/sorcerer.

They each gain +1 BAB. Saves don't change. The original Barbarian gets Improved Uncanny Dodge - a very nice ability. The new one gains the ability to rage 1/day, and gets fast movement, which may or may not apply to the flight speed as well, depending on the DM. Either way, the original barbarian loses his speed advantage. Let’s say that each one gains the average of six hp on the die roll. Plus con, that is an 8 hp gain for the barbarian and a 10 hp gain for the half celestial. Their HP totals are now 46 and 34. The difference in their HPs will grow smaller for a few levels. Eventually the half celestial will have more HP. The original barbarian can still only rage 2/day. So, its really only once per day for a few rounds that he can have Str or con equal to the half celestial. He's only every going to be able to rage one more time per day than the half celestial. He will gain greater rage earlier though, and the half celestial will never be able to get tireless rage or mighty rage. The half celestial gains the ability to cast cure serious wounds and neutralize poison 1/day. His smite evil now deals five extra damage. Spell resistance goes up to 15.

As they both gain further levels, the barbarian's few advantages are going to disappear, while the half celestial's will keep growing.

This wasn't the best example of how sick allowing a level adjustment to be gestalted to a normal level would be. The power gap would be much more apparent if we were to use other combinations such as a fighter/barbarian vs. a fighter/half dragon.

What about some of the powerful angels/devils and other monsters from the Monster Manual and Savage Species? Take a Ghaele Eladrin gestalted with pretty much anything and then try to compare it to something else. The Ghaele will win hands down every single time.

Edit: *twitch* Fixed some grammar and spelling errors.
Flitt
04-06-04, 03:45 PM Originally posted by Machiel_WarriorofDarkness
If you have a normal level 10 character going against a level 6 half-celestial, the half-celestial is by no means "obviously" has the upper hand.

I don't think I ever implied that.

What I meant to say is that a normal race character with 10 gestalt levels would absolutely overpower a half celestial with 6 gestalt levels. Whereas a half celestial with 4 levels of something gestalted onto his LA and then 6 gestalt levels on top of that would overpower a normal race character with 10 gestalt levels.

After having actually made out two characters like that, I still think that the half celestial with 4 levels of something gestalted onto his LA and then 6 gestalt levels would beat up the normal race character with 10 gestalt levels. Even if it wouldn't be as "obvious" as I had assumed.

In my opinion, there are two ways to balance LA's for use in a gestalt campaign. I had only been seeing one, but what has been said here and in one other topic brought the other to my mind.

Either you give the LA the hit dice of a class with no abilities or you give the LA the abilities of a class without the hit dice.

I'm just not sure which would be better. However, with what I wrote above, and after toying around with some other ideas in my mind, I really don't think that giving them both the hit dice and the abilities of a class in addition to the LA is a good idea.

Edit:
I just saw something that Tywyll proposed about halving the LA in gestalt games. I wonder if a normal race character with 10 gestalt levels would still own a half celestial with 8 gestalt levels. I hadn't thought of that method either.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Riznar 03-31-04, 11:55 AM	Somewhere here people were talking about how mixing LAs and Gestalt progressions wasn't a good idea...but I don't really see how it could be overpowered anymore than other Gestalt characters. I mean, a Half Celestial I could understand the argument for, but it still seems limited by the same thing all characters are, actions. Plus I don't see how taking 4 levels of another class wouldn't be better... PS: This for a character I wanted to play when I was thinking about this, not optimized at all: Sorcerer 1 / Aasimar Sorcerer 2 / Aasimar Paragon 1 Sorcerer 3 / Winged Template 1 Sorcerer 4 / Aasimar Paragon 2 Sorcerer 5 / Winged Template 2 Sorcerer 6 / Aasimar Paragon 3
Veton 03-31-04, 03:43 PM	Well, basically the thing is this: In a Gestalt campaign, levels matter even more. So a character with a level adjustment in a Gestalt campaign is going to be underpowered unless you let him buy off his LA.
Flitt 04-02-04, 11:22 PM	Well, I've read up on this in other topics, and since this is the most recent, I'd like to put up my opinions and hopefully get some feedback. Obviously, allowing the gestalt of a standard class and a level adjustment completely unbalances the campaign. All of the drawbacks of a level adjustment are removed if you are allowed to gain a hit die and the resulting attack and save bonus at the same time that you gain a level adjustment. The somewhat accepted idea is that you may only gestalt at levels where your monster would otherwise gain a hit die. For example, if you were to be a monster that had 2 hit dice and a level adjustment of +2, you would be able to be a 2nd level gestalt character (class/racial hit dice) with a level adjustment of +2. Compared to a normal character, this would be very powerful. However, compared to a gestalt character, it is underpowered. My idea is this. You may only gain a hit dice and the benefits that come with it such as attack bonus, saves, feats and skills at the levels where the monster would gain a racial level. But you would still gain the abilities of the class every level adjustment. This seems more balanced to me. At each level where you would gain the hit dice of the monster, you can choose whether the saves, attack and skills are from the class or the monster and then all of the abilities. At the levels where it is just an adjustment, you still get the abilities of the class that you are gestalting with. For example. An Ogre (4 hit dice, +2 LA) that has been gestalted with fighter would have 4d10 hit dice (from the fighter) saves of 4/1/1 (same for both fighter and ogre) max skill ranks of 7, and 2 feats from levels (1st and 3rd hit dice). It would then have +5 NA, +10 Str, +4 Con, -2 Dex, -4 Int, and -4 Cha, and would be a large creature from all of the Ogre levels. It would then have 4 feats from fighter, not 3 as it would if it were only allowed to gestalt at levels where it gained a hit dice. For the ogre, this isn't much of a difference, but for monsters with higher level adjustments, and especially for monsters with spellcasting classes, this would allow them to keep up with their gestalting companions without overpowering them. Thoughts? Just thought of another way to explain this. A level adjustment is generally worth the lost hit die. So basically, when you're gestalting with it, you're saying that the level adjustment has the better hit die, attack, save, skills, etc. Since it doesn't actually have any of those, that is why you only get the abilities of the class and not the rest.
Tywyll 04-06-04, 03:18 AM	Originally posted by Flitt Obviously, allowing the gestalt of a standard class and a level adjustment completely unbalances the campaign. All of the drawbacks of a level adjustment are removed if you are allowed to gain a hit die and the resulting attack and save bonus at the same time that you gain a level adjustment. The somewhat accepted idea is that you may only gestalt at levels where your monster would otherwise gain a hit die. For example, if you were to be a monster that had 2 hit dice and a level adjustment of +2, you would be able to be a 2nd level gestalt character (class/racial hit dice) with a level adjustment of +2. Compared to a normal character, this would be very powerful. However, compared to a gestalt character, it is underpowered. ... Just thought of another way to explain this. A level adjustment is generally worth the lost hit die. So basically, when you're gestalting with it, you're saying that the level adjustment has the better hit die, attack, save, skills, etc. Since it doesn't actually have any of those, that is why you only get the abilities of the class and not the rest. I don't think its "obvious" that allowing mixing of ECL and Class levels in Gestalt completely unbalance the campaign. Compare the relative power of a 4th level Half-Celestial Wizard vs a Human 4/4 Barbarian Wizard. The HC special abilities won't compensate him for the lower HP, saves, skills that the Human has. I've allowed some PCs to mix LA with Gestalting levels, and they aren't producing characters any more effective than their fellows (sometimes less so, sometimes with a few added beneies). The main benefit is getting HP when they normally shouldn't, but that is a small benefit. Its like you said in the last paragraph: mixing Gestalt with LA is like blending with a class that has nothing in the categories you are combining, so you take only the beneies of one class... at least for a few levels.
Machiel_WarriorofDarkness 04-06-04, 04:04 AM	I'd have to agree with Tywll here. LA's are supposed to reflect an ECL. If you have a normal level 10 character going against a level 6 half-celestial, the half-celestial is by no means "obviously" has the upper hand. They are both ECL 10, so that means that they should be equivalent. When gestalting this does not change. The main benefit of gestalting is taking two different class levels for every upgrade. When you have an LA taking up one slot, you are, in fact, limiting the overall power of your character. To be honest, gestalting with LA's is probably more balancing than a regular ECL. The power of a character isn't so much his stats or spell-like abilities, which is the main thing that creatures with LA's enhance. The true power of a character is in his feats and class abilities. When you pit a character with multiple class abilites against one with only a few, but higher stats, then the one with the fewer abilities is at a disadvantage even though it attempts to make up for it with it's higher stats. This is JMHO. If this thread is still going on when I get this one game really started I'll give some feedback. I've got a few characters with LA's involved. And it is at a high level, so we'll really get a good look at how balancing/unbalancing it should be. From looks alone, they seem to be balanced, but as it was said earlier, the best way to know for sure is play-testing.
Flitt 04-06-04, 03:08 PM	Compare the relative power of a 4th level Half-Celestial Wizard vs. a Human 4/4 Barbarian Wizard. How about I compare a Half Celestial/Sorcerer to a Barbarian/Sorcerer? I can't, by any stretch of the imagination conceive of a barbarian/wizard. x.0 And it really doesn't put the Half Celestial's benefits to good use. Barbarian/Sorcerer Ability Scores Str 13 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 10 Cha 16 (Base 15 +1 from level) HP 4d12 + 8 (Average 38) Base Attack +4 Saves are Fort +6, Ref +2, Will +1 or Fort +3, Ref +2, Will +4 4 Skills at full ranks, Choosing from either the barbarian list or the wizard list. Speed 40 ft. AC 11 (+1 Dex) Abilities: Rage 2/day (+4 Str/Con, +2 Will, -2 AC) cannot cast spells while in rage. Fast Movement Uncanny Dodge Trap Sense +1 Familiar Feats: 3 (1 from human, 2 from level) Spells: 6/7/4 per day Base DC is 12 + Spell Level Now for the Sorcerer/Half Celestial Ability Scores: Str 17 (base 13 +4 from race) Dex 14 (Base 12 +2 from race) Con 18 (Base 14 +4 from race) Int 10 (Base 8 +2 from race) Wis 14 (Base 10 +4 from race) Cha 20 (Base 15 +4 from race +1 from level) HP 4d4 + 16 (Average 26) Base Attack +2 Saves are Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +6 (+4 Fort Save vs. Poison) 2 skills at full ranks choosing from the sorcerer class list Speed 30 ft. FLY (Good) 60 ft. AC 13 (+2 Dex, +1 Natural) Abilities: Familiar Smite Evil 1/day for +4 damage Darkvision 60 ft Immune to Disease Acid, Cold and Electricity Resistance 10 Damage Reduction 5/magic Spell Resistance 14 Spell Like Abilities: Daylight at will Protection from Evil 3/day Aid, Bless and Detect Evil 1/day Feats 2 (both from levels) Spells 6/8/4 per day Base DC is 15 + Spell Level So lets compare them, shall we. In terms of ability scores, the half celestial has the advantage. Even when the barbarian goes into rage, that only brings his Str and Con equal to the half celestial, and it only lasts for a short time. The Barbarian/Sorcerer has 12 more hp on average. His die type is larger, but the Half Celestial/Sorcerer’s higher Con helps to close the gap. When enraged, the Barbarian gains an extra 8 HP because of his increased Con, for 46 HP vs. the Half Celestial's 26 HP. Of course, those extra HPs go away. However, despite the higher HP of the Barbarian mix, the Half Celestial is much tougher and can take more punishment. Why is that, you ask? At 4th level, the Half Celestial has damage reduction 5/magic. Let’s take a look at some of the CR 5 Monsters in the Monster Manual: Some of them can get through that. The majority can't. Most equivalent level characters will have a weapon that can bypass it. But it's definitely better than nothing is, which is what the Barbarian/Sorcerer has. The Half Celestial also has spell resistance 14. It's not overwhelmingly high, but it still means that an equivalent level caster has to roll a 10 or higher. An equivalent level caster doesn't even half to roll for the Barbarian mix. Then, the Half Celestial has elemental resistances: Acid, Cold and Electricity 10. So, if they get by his spell resistance, they have to get past the elemental resistance too. The Barbarian/Sorcerer has a higher base attack bonus (+4 vs. +2) however the Half Celestial/Sorcerer has higher Str and Dex. Because of this, their melee attacks will have the same attack bonus of +5 (+4 BAB +1 Str; +2 BAB, +3 Str) while the barbarian has the edge in ranged with a +5 (+4 BAB, +1 Dex) compared to the half-celestial with a +4 (+2 BAB, +2 Dex). When in rage, he jumps ahead in melee, leading with a +7 to the attack compared to the half celestial who stays at +5. Of course, while the barbarian is raging, the half celestial can just cast true strike, which the barbarian could cast, if he wasn't so busy frothing at the mouth. The Barbarian wins as far as skills go, 4 skills to the Half Celestial's 2. Lets assume that they both buy Knowledge Arcana and Spellcraft, since those are very important for a spellcaster. Lets also assume that the barbarian takes Climb and Survival as his other two skills. So, the half celestial will have higher checks for Arcana and Spellcraft because of it's increased Int. The barbarian will have a Climb check of 8 (+7 ranks, +1 Str) and a Survival Check of 7 (+7 ranks, +0 Wis). The Half Celestial will have a climb check of 3 (+3 Str) and a Survival Check of 2 (+2 Wis). The barbarian wins, but only because of the skill ranks, and the gap isn't as big as it could be. In anything that they don't have ranks in, the half celestial has the advantage, because his ability scores are higher than the barbarian's are. Saves! The Half Celestial has 5/3/6 while the barbarian has 6/2/1 or 3/2/4. If using the second set of saves, the barbarian will have equivalent saves to the half celestial, but only when in rage. If using the first set, the barbarian's fort save wins, but his will save can't even try to compete. Either way, the barbarian will still have a lower reflex save. Just remember though, that the half celestial is immune to disease, so he doesn't have to make fort saves for that. And the half celestial has a +4 Fort Save vs. Poison. The barbarian does have a +1 vs. traps though. As far as land speed goes, the barbarian wins. But the half celestial can fly faster than the barbarian can walk. Sure, the barbarian can learn the fly spell, in a couple of levels, and if he wants to waste a known spell on it. Wings don't have a duration. With an Armor class of 13, the Half Celestial beats the Barbarian's AC or 11, 9 when in rage. Either one of them could wear armor with it's accompanying spell failure chance, or use the same armor enhancing spell, so I won't even worry about that. The barbarian has uncanny dodge, a nice ability. If the Half Celestial loses his Dex bonus, his AC drops to be the same as the Barbarian. Of course, the barbarian can't be sneak attacked in that situation. They both have the same choice of familiar, so that's not an issue for comparison. The Barbarian has 1 more feat because of his race. So, the advantage is his. He could take Power Attack with that, which he would be able to use to better effect because of his higher base attack bonus. But for the most part, the same feats are available to both of them and give them both the same benefits. The half celestial has several spell like abilities and more spells per day because of his higher Charisma. The save DC for his spells is higher. Overall, the half celestial/sorcerer owns the barbarian. The gap isn't as big as I was imagining, but it is still there. Now lets give our two competitors each a level in barbarian/sorcerer. They each gain +1 BAB. Saves don't change. The original Barbarian gets Improved Uncanny Dodge - a very nice ability. The new one gains the ability to rage 1/day, and gets fast movement, which may or may not apply to the flight speed as well, depending on the DM. Either way, the original barbarian loses his speed advantage. Let’s say that each one gains the average of six hp on the die roll. Plus con, that is an 8 hp gain for the barbarian and a 10 hp gain for the half celestial. Their HP totals are now 46 and 34. The difference in their HPs will grow smaller for a few levels. Eventually the half celestial will have more HP. The original barbarian can still only rage 2/day. So, its really only once per day for a few rounds that he can have Str or con equal to the half celestial. He's only every going to be able to rage one more time per day than the half celestial. He will gain greater rage earlier though, and the half celestial will never be able to get tireless rage or mighty rage. The half celestial gains the ability to cast cure serious wounds and neutralize poison 1/day. His smite evil now deals five extra damage. Spell resistance goes up to 15. As they both gain further levels, the barbarian's few advantages are going to disappear, while the half celestial's will keep growing. This wasn't the best example of how sick allowing a level adjustment to be gestalted to a normal level would be. The power gap would be much more apparent if we were to use other combinations such as a fighter/barbarian vs. a fighter/half dragon. What about some of the powerful angels/devils and other monsters from the Monster Manual and Savage Species? Take a Ghaele Eladrin gestalted with pretty much anything and then try to compare it to something else. The Ghaele will win hands down every single time. Edit: twitch Fixed some grammar and spelling errors.
Flitt 04-06-04, 03:45 PM	Originally posted by Machiel_WarriorofDarkness If you have a normal level 10 character going against a level 6 half-celestial, the half-celestial is by no means "obviously" has the upper hand. I don't think I ever implied that. What I meant to say is that a normal race character with 10 gestalt levels would absolutely overpower a half celestial with 6 gestalt levels. Whereas a half celestial with 4 levels of something gestalted onto his LA and then 6 gestalt levels on top of that would overpower a normal race character with 10 gestalt levels. After having actually made out two characters like that, I still think that the half celestial with 4 levels of something gestalted onto his LA and then 6 gestalt levels would beat up the normal race character with 10 gestalt levels. Even if it wouldn't be as "obvious" as I had assumed. In my opinion, there are two ways to balance LA's for use in a gestalt campaign. I had only been seeing one, but what has been said here and in one other topic brought the other to my mind. Either you give the LA the hit dice of a class with no abilities or you give the LA the abilities of a class without the hit dice. I'm just not sure which would be better. However, with what I wrote above, and after toying around with some other ideas in my mind, I really don't think that giving them both the hit dice and the abilities of a class in addition to the LA is a good idea. Edit: I just saw something that Tywyll proposed about halving the LA in gestalt games. I wonder if a normal race character with 10 gestalt levels would still own a half celestial with 8 gestalt levels. I hadn't thought of that method either.