Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aurotuli 04-12-05, 08:36 PM	Something I am considering in regards to +LA races. Instead of treating such as a permanent level handicap (one or two levels is worth a lot more at higher levels than at lower levels) why not just not allow a character to level up into second level until they have gained XP equal to their LA? In other words, consider the following: (Hobgoblin +1, Half-Celestial +4) Human Drd 7 needs 7000 XP to advance to Drd 8, for a total of 28000. Hobgoblin Drd 7 needs 8000 XP to advance to Drd 8, for a total of 36000. Half-Celestial Drd 7 needs 11000 XP to advance to Drd 8, for a total of 66000. Hobgoblins have LA +1, suggesting that at first level they are the equivalent of level 2 character. Does this also mean that at 19th level they are the equivalent of a level 20 character? Is Dark Vision 60, +4 to Move Silently and +2 to two abilities - countered in part by a favored class - worth 19,000 XP at 19th level? If so, then why is the character only considered one level higher at first level? There is almost 20x difference in XP between the two, after all. By the same logic, is a 17th level half-celestial considered epic? No, not really. From what I understand they are still not allowed epic feats (since they have not yet gained a 20th level in a class). Even if they are - are they truly equal to a human that has 21 levels in the same class as they? My view - and one I am thinking of houseruling in my next campaign, is that a character with LA effectively starts with an XP deficit. They gain XP as normal, but they do not gain their second level until after their deficit is paid. This results in the following: A Hobgoblin has LA +1, and therefore they start the game with -1000 XP. Thus, upon gaining their first 1000 XP they have paid off their deficit for the abilities they began with and now have XP 0. Upon gaining 1000 more XP they gain level two. In effect, every level is bumped up 1000 XP. A Hobgoblin Ftr 7, therefore, needs only 7000 XP to gain level level, but they are 1000 XP behind the (non-LA adjusted) other members of their party. At lower levels this is a significicant difference, but at higher levels this is negligible. A Half-Celestial has LA +4 and therefore starts with -4000 XP. As such, they will spend 4000 XP just paying off their deficit. Once that occurs they begin gaining XP as normal: 1000 XP results in level two, etc. They will forever be 4000 XP behind the other (non-LA adjusted) members of the party, but this is not potentially crippling at higher levels. A Half-Celestial and a human with 110,000 XP, for instance, are both level 15. The human made the level 5000 XP ago, and the half-celestial made the level 1000 XP ago. This is instead of having the human at level 15 and the half-celestial at level 11. I am curious as to how others view this idea. I wish to make the LA races more approachable. Rarely will anyone take a race higher than +1 because of the extreme difficulties such face against supposedly correct CR in later or even mid levels. A group of LA +2 all at level 10 are supposed to be equal to the task of CR 12, but such is not always the case. At level 16 I seriously doubt they would be equal to dealing with CR 18 encounters. In some ways this is similar to LA buy back, except that it all occurs at the beginning and it is equal to their difference in initial level - rather than attempting to guess their equivalent level half a dozen and a dozen levels later. - - - Instead of a deficit that must be paid before leveling can occur I am also considering a 10% XP penalty until their deficit is paid off. In such an instance a +1 LA character (such as the hobgoblin above) would suffer a 10% XP penalty until 5th level. A half-celestial, on the other hand, would suffer a 10% XP penalty until about halfway between 9th and 10th level. This is less of a penalty than multiclassing might bring due to favored classes (20%), and note that although it lasts several levels, it is lost before 10th for any reasonable LA creature. (LA +6 or more is not reasonable in my opinion; +5 is borderline perhaps reasonable, depending strongly on circumstances - such as whether all the others are using LA +2 or +3 races, something I've yet to see.) I would also consider such a method for bloodlines, in which case a minor bloodline would be paid for by level 5, an intermediate between levels 6 & 7 and a major between levels 8 & 9 (1k, 2k, and 3k XP, respectively, as they represent LA +1, LA +2, and LA +3, respectively). What are your views on the matter?
Marabout 04-13-05, 03:35 AM	The flat XP modification seems like a good idea. It also fits in well with the magic rituals to change a character's race or add a template detailed in Savage Species, as well as reducing LA in Unearthed Arcana. Perhaps you could say that whatever LA you have, you have to pay the relevant XP from your starting total. You could even start below 0 XP. For instance, if you start at level 5, being an Aasimar (a race with +1 LA) sets you back to 9,000 XP, dropping you to the end of level 4. Starting as a Half-Celestial, OTOH (+4 LA), sets you backto 0 XP, meaning you start at 1st level in a 5th-level campaign.
Arcade 04-13-05, 08:35 AM	It seems well enough and was a system that "basic" D&D used for level adjustments. However, I think 1000 XP per level adjustment is too low. Let's take the +4 LA half celestial and 5th level characters with 10000 XP. The half celestial will be at level 4 and have all the abilities of of a half celestial- too powerful. Instead, you should likely use the actual amount of XP it would take to get to 4th level- in this case 10000 XP. This is especially relevant given my next argument. When handing out XP, what level do you consider the half celestial creature? Let's say all the characters have 6000 XP- half celestial is now level 2 and the other chacters are level 4. Does the half celestial gain more XP than the other characters since he is 2 levels lower? And while he is gaining all those XP needed to get him to first level, is he considered a 1st level character or a 4th level character? (which affects his XP progress drastically). IMO, the buy back system is a pretty good solution to the LA. Keep sending out the details for yours, though. I'm interested to see what you come up with.
Thelon Fairblade 04-13-05, 09:11 AM	If you're not going to use the buy-back system in UA, I would agree with Arcade: LA +4 should be 10,000, not 4,000. I.e. the cost for all the levels, added together. See, the thing about LA is that it is much more beneficial at the low to medium levels. +6 STR (+3 to hit and damage) is freaking amazing when your normal attack bonus is +1 to 4. When your attack bonus is +21 to +25, +3 is nice but not overwhelming. Likewise, +6 WIS is +3 on will saves... great against the expected DC 11 and 13 spells of low level, nice but not overwhelming by 16th when DCs are in the 30s. [LA of course sucks at 1st level, when you don't have any HP to back up the powers...] Lastly, any kind of buyback system makes LA race vastly more attractive to casters. A Half-Celestial mage is 2 full spell levels behind his party... but after buyback, he ends up only about 1 level behind (half a spell level), plus he has all the yummy goodies of the heavy LA race! I think the UA's plan to stagger buyback across a few levels works out fine. You can tinker with timing and the numbers, but I don't think just marooning them at 1st level for awhile is a good choice. When everyone is 1st level, the LA+4 character will outshine everyone. When everyone advances levels and this PC doesn't, the LA player will now be the frustrated one.
Gilean 04-13-05, 09:26 AM	The goal is admirable, but execution poor. Remeber, creatures of lower level gain more experience. Much like the item crafter XP gravvy train, or whatever it is called.
Aurotuli 04-13-05, 07:52 PM	Perhaps I made a mistake in my first post, for I did not mean to suggest that the cost of LA only be 1000 XP per LA. On the other hand I was working from memory in regards to the XP table (per level), so perhaps I misquoted a number or a total for a level. In any case, what I mean is basically what you said. A half-celestial starts with a deficit in XP equal to a typical fourth level character. Taking one level of a class, they are now the equivalent of a fifth level character, but they have a deficit of several thousand XP. From here I have two ideas. The first is that all XP goes to the deficit first. The problem with this, however, is that they will not gain their second level until the rest of their party is several levels beyond them. While fair, the fact remains that less than a dozen hp when dealing with fifth level encounters is decidely less than healthy. The second idea that I am beginning to play with is that the character is in some manner 'penalty multiclassed' into their template - with a resultant XP 'penalty' that remains until the XP needed to pay off the 4 levels (in the half-celestial example) has been dealt with. Once that is the case the penalty vanishes. In this instance the character gains XP as normal, but due to a set fraction of their XP automatically going towards their template, they need, say, 1100 XP to gain second level (10% penalty), or perhaps they need 1200 XP to gain second level (20% penalty). With the latter they would pay off their debt sooner, but they would also fall behind the others faster (in terms of hp, bab, saves, skill points, etc). . . . . . . . . . .with .true^ . total. with . true^. total Lv . total . needs. 10%. .total . paid . .20% . total. paid 01 . . 000 . 1000 . 1100 . 0000 . 0000 1200 . 0000 . 0000 02 . .1000 . 2000 . 2200 . 1100 . .100 2400 . 1200 . .200 03 . .3000 . 3000 . 3300 . 3300 . .300 3600 . 3600 . .600 04 . .6000 . 4000 . 4400 . 6600 . .600 4800 . 7200 .*1200* 05 . 10000 . 5000 . 5500 .11000 .*1000* 6000 .12000 . 2000 06 . 15000 . 6000 . 6600 .16500 . 1500 7200 .18000 .*3000* 07 . 21000 . 7000 . 7700 .23100 . 2100 8400 .25200 . 4200 08 . 28000 . 8000 . 8800 .30800 . 2800 9600 .33600 . 5600 09 . 36000 . 9000 . 9900 .39600 .*3600* 10800 .43200 .*7200* 10 . 45000 .10000 .11000 .49500 . 4500 12000 .54000 . 9000 11 . 55000 .11000 .12100 .60500 . 5500 13200 .66000 *11000* 12 . 66000 .12000 .13200 .72600 .*6600* 14400 .79200 .13200 13 . 78000 .13000 .14300 .85800 . 7800 15600 .93600 *15600* 14 . 91000 .14000 .15400 100100 . 9100 16800 109200 .18200 15 .105000 .15000 .16500 115500 *10500* 18000 126000 *21000* 16 .120000 .16000 .17600 132000 .12000 19200 144000 .24000 17 .136000 .17000 .18700 149600 .13600 20400 163200 .27200 18 .153000 .18000 .19800 188100 *15300* 21600 183600 *30600* 19 .171000 .19000 .20900 209000 .17100 22800 205200 .34200 20 .190000 .20000 .22000 231000 .19000 24000 228000 *38000* 21 .210000 .21000 .23100 254100 *21000* 25200 252000 .42000 ^(total XP, including XP lost due to deficit payoff) *####* (level at which a degree of LA is bought off) From the above several things can be clearly seen. The first is that the bloodlines seem to have been made with the 20% payoff in mind. With a 20% deficit (equivalent to multiclassing in a non-favored class) the first LA is paid off around level 3 to 4, the second at level 6, and the fourth just before level 11. Indeed, with a 20% deficit, it is theoretically possible to pay off LA +8 by level 20. It is interesting to note, however, that their XP total - including the deficit payoff - is only equivalent to a 22rd level character. Thus, what at first level was a +8 difference in level, at 20th level is a mere +2 difference in level. This makes since, although it comes at a rather high cost (20%). Most I know of would be wary of paying so great a cost the entirery of their adventuring career. A more modest +3, however, is another matter. With the 20% payoff plan the PC has paid off their LA by level 9, and they are only a single level behind their part in terms of XP. However, due to the lower LA, it is likely that the PC may wish to alleviate the cost at a slower rate. Consider then the 10% payoff plan. Only LA +5 can be paid off with that plan prior to epic (although +6 is dealt with just as the first epic level is gained). However, for lower LAs this works quite to the PCs favor. LA +3, for instance, is paid off at level 12 (rather similar to bloodlines, although the prior to payoffs, 5 & 9, occur after the prior bloodline levels of 3 & 6).Furthermore, at that time they are the same level as their comrads, albeit several thousand XP behind them. With the narrower differences at higher levels, this will likley make little difference in future adventures. Personally, I favor the 10% payoff plan. Reasonable LAs (ie: less than 6) can be dealt with readily and the penalty is not crippling - often allowing the PC to be within one level of their party at lower to mid levels. Even at early epic levels they would differ by no more than a level or two from their party. For higher LAs or for faster payoff, on the other hand, it would be best to use the 20% payoff plan - equivalent to poorly thought out core multiclassing with a non-human/non-halfelven race. Of course, if you poorly multitask and have LA to pay off, then all the calculations go out the window. 40% - or even 30% - is crippling enough to make your character cannon fodder within two or three levels.
Marabout 04-13-05, 08:55 PM	You can't start with a LA greater than your total class level. Thus, you can start your game with a LA greater than +1 (like a Half-Dragon or Half-Fiend) only if your party is sufficiently advanced (level 2 or higher). Once you start, you suffer a 10% experience penalty per point of LA until you pay off the XP value of the LA. You accomplish this with a ritual of some sort: Arcane or Divine magic, Psionic Trance, intense combat training, or whatever floats your character's boat and the DM will allow (let's call it a Ritual for simplicity's sake). Here's the catch: you can't pay more than 1000 XP per Ritual, you can't perform a Ritual more than once per day, and you can't reduce yourself below the bottom of a level by spending XP on Rituals (however, if you've just gained enough XP to boost your level, you can perform your Ritual, effectively reducing your XP below the threshold for the level before it takes full effect). Example: Angelica Darklighter starts at level 5: a Half-Celestial/Half-Tiefling Fighter 2/Rogue 3. She now suffers a whopping 50% penalty to earned XP because she has an outstanding LA of 5. The XP cost for a 5 LA is 15,000 XP (this is really significant because, as a 5th-level character, she only has 10,000 XP). To lower her LA means she needs to reduce her XP debt to the equivalent of 4th level, at 10,000 XP. This requires at least 5000 XP and 5 Rituals spread across at least 5 days. Over the next few weeks, she slowly (50% of normal) earns enough XP so that she has paid off 4900 XP of her XP debt. She then saves the world and shoots to 15,099 XP, which is just beyond the threshold for the next level. She's now in a quandry, because she can gain a level, but if she performs her Ritual, she can remove one point of her LA, reducing her XP penalty to 40%. Note that she can't do both, because she's 1 XP short of the necessary amount (I'm a truly heartless DM, aren't I?). With a heavy sigh, her player acquires level 4 as a Rogue, then performs her Ritual, figuring it will be easier to get the 1 XP if she has an extra Hit Die, more Skill Points, an extra feat, and Uncanny Dodge. BTW: Even Humans and Half-Elves can easily multiclass badly: Fighter 3/Rogue 3 adding a level of a new core class suffers a 20% penalty. If they say the Favored Class is Any, it should be ANY class: whichever one would do the most good. C'mon WOTC, just call it Highest class or somethin'!
Tenzhi 04-14-05, 02:28 AM	I do like the idea of penalizing their XP rather than their level. I might consider taking the difference between what they need to gain 2nd level and what a normal character needs to gain 2nd level and dispersing that across twenty levels as additional XP they need to gain. I think I'd have to make a table in advance to make things easier.
Aurotuli 04-14-05, 11:03 PM	Marabout, that is not quite what I meant, but if that works for you, then I suppose that will work in your campaigns. What I meant is that the LA system itself is completely replaced. There is no need for a ritual, extra combat training, etc. Instead, they receive a penalty as if multiclassed. However, the penalty can be either 10% or 20%. The latter is harsher, but it pays off the penalty rather quickly. The former is easier, but the penalty lasts for many more levels. So, in your example, assume that Angelica started at level one. She decides, upon character creation (for I would probably not allow a change in pace later) that she wishes to get her XP penalty out of the way sooner rather than later. She takes the 20% penalty. Five levels later (your example) the continuous 10% payment as accrued to 1200 XP. One level of LA has been paid off. It will not be until shortly before 11th level that her penalty is paid off in full. By that time she will have earned 65,000 XP, but 10,000 XP will have gone towards her XP penalty for being an LA race. So while everyong else in the party is just 1000 XP shy of level 12, she will be only just gaining level 11 (at 55,000 XP). Now, however, her penalty is paid off, so she no longer suffers the 20% penalty. Notice that if she had chosen the 10% penalty, she would still be paying it until 500 XP shy of level 15. However, the lower penalty would actually allow her to be closer to her team in level than the faster 20% pay off plan. As for LA and ELs, I would add her LA to her level to determine her equivalent level. Each time an LA is paid off, it would lower her equivalent level by one, until the penalty is over and her character level is her level (no LA added due to having been fully paid off). So at first level she is a 5th level equivalent character. When determining XP gained from a CR 5 encounter she is treated as level 5, not level 1. However, after level 4 one level of LA has been paid off. Therefore, at level five she is treated as being equivalent to level 8 (char lv 5 + LA 3, one LA has been paid off). Your ritual idea could work, but a 50% penalty is rather harsh. On the other hand, by using a ritual you allow them to sacrifice XP on their own and at the time of their choosing. My method, it is automatically removed each time XP is awarded. For example: "everyone gains 100 XP - except Angelica, who receives 80 XP" (due to her 20% XP penalty). Both ways have their good and bad sides, I'll admit, but I like my method because it reflects that encounters are just a little easier for the character - thus the lower XP they receive each time.
Arcade 04-15-05, 11:32 AM	I think your numbers are slightly off because you haven't considered the fact that the LA character will be gaining levels much more quickly off the start than the other characters. He will onyl need 1200 XP to get to 2nd level and another 2400 XP to get another level after that. However, because he gains those levels, his ECL will rise as well which will also reduce his XP gains even more. It is not until near the end of his payback cycle that he will actually be at a lower ECL than the other party members. this will lengthen the amount of time he has to pay back his XP such that the other characters will be well into level 12 by the time he hits level 11. Not that this is such a bad thing. For a +4 LA, he's still getting a pretty good deal. I'm not convinced this is any better than the standard buy-back, but it's an interesting alternative.
Aurotuli 04-15-05, 09:06 PM	Initially he gains levels slower, not faster. Otherwise you have it right. Initially he is more powerful than the others (due to being an LA+ race). Yet because of this power the challenges are not quite so challenging, and he gains levels at a slower rate. (His LA is taken into account when determing how much XP he gains from an encounter.) As the level of challenge (CR) rises due to party level increase the rate at which he is held back (due to ease in meeting challenges) is decreased, allowing for more ease in gaining levels. However, by that time he is already about a level or so behind the others. Eventually his advantages due to being an LA race are no longer enough to grant him a noticeable edge in dealing with the challenges commonly met by the group. By that time his LA is paid off and he is perhaps half a level to two levels behind the group. But this does not remain for long, because with the last level paid off he is now a (slightly) lower level than the others. Now he is the one gaining slightly more XP from an encounter (due to lower equivalent level, when XP gain for overcoming the CR is determined). As such, he won't remain behind them for long. As I said before, any reasonable LA is paid for by mid-level (level 8 to 12) at the latest. After that the LA is paid off and the adventurers can continue as normal. This is much more realistic than a half-celestial still suffering excessive penalties due to LA at higher levels - in many instances held back from epic levels despite that being the average encounter level. Consider, for instance, a party with 3 22nd level PCs and one 18th level PC, dealing with with CR 22 encounters. I don't think the half-celestial will be able to keep up.
ryanroyce 04-20-05, 01:24 AM	This is an excellent idea, IMO. I'd probably implement it in this way: PCs with a level adjustment have a minimum XP penalty of 10% per point of level adjustment. The penalized xp is used to "buy off" their level adjustment instead. Thus, an aasimar has a 10% XP penalty, while a half-fiend has a 40% XP penalty. For example, an aasimar begins play with a 1000xp debt, due to their +1 LA. If that aasimar earns 100xp for an encounter, at least 10xp is paid toward the debt (reducing it to 990xp), leaving 90xp to be spent on leveling up. If the aasimar wishes to buy off their debt more quickly, they may spend all 100xp on the debt and none on leveling up (reducing the debt to 900xp). Likewise, the half-fiend begins play with a 10,000xp debt and a minimum 40% xp penalty (i.e., upon earning 100xp for an encounter, 60xp goes to leveling up and 40xp goes to paying off the LA debt, leaving an xp debt of 9,960xp). Upon paying off the first 1,000xp of debt, the half-fiend's minimum xp penalty drops to 30%. Upon paying off an additional 2,000xp of debt (for a total of 3,000 in paid off debt), the half-fiend's minimum xp penalty drops to 20%. Upon paying off an additional 3,000xp of debt (for a total of 6,000 in paid off debt), the half-fiend's minimum xp penalty drops to 10%. Upon paying off an additional 4,000xp of debt (for a total of 10,000 in paid off debt), the half-fiend's minimum xp penalty drops to 0%. I'm not sure how I'd handle racial hit dice and starting play at higher levels, but I'm just going to ignore those issues for now. ;) Ryan
Chemlak 04-21-05, 05:24 PM	I would be tempted to do something similar, but allow the player to decide how much (if any) XP they are using to pay of the "debt" each time I hand XP out. That way it becomes a matter of player choice as to whether they use the XP toward level advancement, but go up in level more slowly, or pay off some of the debt to speed up future level advancement. Also saves DM bookeeping, 'cause you just need to know what their current ECL is, and let the player worry whether some of the debt is being bought off. I would also rule that a character cannot buy off more than 1 level of LA/debt per Character level, just to be safe.
Aurotuli 04-21-05, 08:45 PM	ryanroyce, that is an interesting idea. It well displays the fact that at first the encounters are a noticeably easier for the LA+ race character. And as the character gains levels the penalty falls noticeably, showing the increased challenges they are facing (or, perhaps more accurately, the decreased ease of the encounters). Hmm, I think I would give a player the choice of the two methods. My method in and of itself allows for a lower but consistant penalty for many more levels, while your level allows for much more rapid pay off with a much greater initial penalty. I know some that would prefer the former and some that would prefer the latter.