LA Rules (Quick and Easy Solution) [Archive] - Wizards Community

LA Rules (Quick and Easy Solution) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
CrimsonPhoenix
04-21-05, 08:52 PM I'm currently working on a better method with which to deal with races that have both non-replacable racial HD (more than 1) and a level adjustment. The system is extremely loose at this point, but basically comes down to this:
For every 2 racial HD the creature has, subtract 1 from its LA. This is due to the fact that racial HD are much worse than class levels, and usually the abilities gained from the LA should instead be gained via "virtual class abilities" of the racial HD.
The creatures I made this system for in particular are dragons, so I will use an example for a Very Young Silver Dragon (the current test subject of this system). The silver has 10 HD and an LA of +4. Just looking at the abilities gained it is quite obvious that he would be underpowered as a 14th level character, and not just a little bit either. Since he has 10 HD, all the level adjustment would be removed. Given the normal starting gold for a 10th level character, he should be pretty balanced. Well, let's compare:

A 10th level fighter with starting stats Str 18, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8 (a little over average) would have final stats of Str 20, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8. His base saves would be Fort +7, Ref +3, Will +3. He would have gained a total of 6 bonus feats from his class abilities, on top of Quick Draw for free. He is proficient with all armors and all simple and martial weapons. He would have 10d10+20 HP, nothing to laugh at (not including Con enhancing items, if any).

The dragon with the same starting stats would have Str 24, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 12: clearly far better. His base saves would be +7 for all (also better). He would have a fly speed, natural armor of +9, a breath weapon (although not all that useful from my testing) and a couple immunities. He does not have any proficiencies (prof. with simple weapons due to innate Alternate Form, but nothing all too good there, and certainly nothing he can use effectively). The natural armor is basically just free armor (about a 2650gp value from a +1 Full Plate). He has multiple attacks (more than the fighter), but less attack bonus and only 1:1 power attack since natural weapons are (I certainly hope...) not two-handed. He has 10d12+40 HP (A good deal more).

So, it comes down to this: The dragon with this system is just a little too good. The fighter can still deal more damage, but the dragon is tougher and can take more hits. The other dragon abilities (such as flying, darkvision, etc) are only partially useful in a normal party since low level spells can mimic all of these abilities (better in the case of the Fly spell, which grants perfect manueverability). The fact that the fighter, assuming a competent party, can also fly and see in the dark somewhat redeems the dragon for being seemingly overpowered.

In conclusion, if you've managed to read this far through my confusing mess of parenthesis, this system is not quite balanced. On top of this, I certainly do not think it will work for everything. This is made for creatures that have both a moderate LA and a good deal of racial HD. Because of this, Pixies and such will be relatively unaffected, which might mean that this system can work for them too. If anyone has any suggestions to round off this method and fix the minor imbalance please post. Otherwise, I encourage all of you who are interested to experiment in your own campaigns (assuming your DM is lenient enough to allow it).
Darkmeer
04-21-05, 09:10 PM It all comes down to how you do it.
Under your system, Trolls would recieve a lower level adjustment (even in non-powergaming hands, their LA seems low).
Anyhoo,
Dragons are difficult creatures to use in a game. I have a copper dragon PC that uses a monster class from Dragon magazine. The reason I bring this up is that it makes more sense to see the abilities broken down over many levels. It also helps to alleviate any problems that the player and I have with the LA. I'd try finding the back copy (don't have a number, but it had a big silver dragon on the cover) to help adjust for dragons.

As far as your system goes, I typically find that -1 LA per 3-4 hd is a little more balanced. This covers most creatures with minor spell-like abilities pretty well, but doesn't help with highly magical creatures such as outsiders, dragons, and illithids. It almost seems that there needs to be a double standard (but I don't know what it should be).
I do think the LA system is a little overbearing, but it is okay to use by itself. Remember, that same silver dragon would have the gear of a 15th level character, which has to account for something. Gear+LA tends to make stronger monsters.

:twocents:
CrimsonPhoenix
04-21-05, 09:32 PM I accidentally calculated part of that wrong. It was supposed to be 1 LA per 3 HD, not 2 HD. That would make the same dragon mentioned above an 11th level character, not 10th. I don't know how I managed to let that one slip by my proofreading.

In any case, this was designed not so much to balance a whole lot better but to allow these characters to be played before extremely high levels. The LA system would give you better gear in the long run, but you wouldn't even be playing the character until several levels later. Dragons are especially annoying with this since the earliest you can get a Med. sized dragon is 12th, and then you have to roleplay a baby :confused: .

The dragons I have played are all at least in the Very Young age catagory, most of the time Young. This LA removal system will leave the gold dragon with LA +2 and most others with +1 or 0, which seems about right (the gold stats are clearly better than the others).
steenan
04-22-05, 03:55 PM I would go with -1 LA for 4 or 5 racial HD for dragons (or outsiders) - their HD is very strong, nearly a class level. -1 LA for 3 HD is good for monstrous humanoids, magical beasts and shapechangers, while -1 LA for 2 HD for humanoids, giants, fey and aberrations.

The numbers are from a system I use for evaluating ECLs. It's playtested and works quite good.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CrimsonPhoenix 04-21-05, 08:52 PM	I'm currently working on a better method with which to deal with races that have both non-replacable racial HD (more than 1) and a level adjustment. The system is extremely loose at this point, but basically comes down to this: For every 2 racial HD the creature has, subtract 1 from its LA. This is due to the fact that racial HD are much worse than class levels, and usually the abilities gained from the LA should instead be gained via "virtual class abilities" of the racial HD. The creatures I made this system for in particular are dragons, so I will use an example for a Very Young Silver Dragon (the current test subject of this system). The silver has 10 HD and an LA of +4. Just looking at the abilities gained it is quite obvious that he would be underpowered as a 14th level character, and not just a little bit either. Since he has 10 HD, all the level adjustment would be removed. Given the normal starting gold for a 10th level character, he should be pretty balanced. Well, let's compare: A 10th level fighter with starting stats Str 18, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8 (a little over average) would have final stats of Str 20, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8. His base saves would be Fort +7, Ref +3, Will +3. He would have gained a total of 6 bonus feats from his class abilities, on top of Quick Draw for free. He is proficient with all armors and all simple and martial weapons. He would have 10d10+20 HP, nothing to laugh at (not including Con enhancing items, if any). The dragon with the same starting stats would have Str 24, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 12: clearly far better. His base saves would be +7 for all (also better). He would have a fly speed, natural armor of +9, a breath weapon (although not all that useful from my testing) and a couple immunities. He does not have any proficiencies (prof. with simple weapons due to innate Alternate Form, but nothing all too good there, and certainly nothing he can use effectively). The natural armor is basically just free armor (about a 2650gp value from a +1 Full Plate). He has multiple attacks (more than the fighter), but less attack bonus and only 1:1 power attack since natural weapons are (I certainly hope...) not two-handed. He has 10d12+40 HP (A good deal more). So, it comes down to this: The dragon with this system is just a little too good. The fighter can still deal more damage, but the dragon is tougher and can take more hits. The other dragon abilities (such as flying, darkvision, etc) are only partially useful in a normal party since low level spells can mimic all of these abilities (better in the case of the Fly spell, which grants perfect manueverability). The fact that the fighter, assuming a competent party, can also fly and see in the dark somewhat redeems the dragon for being seemingly overpowered. In conclusion, if you've managed to read this far through my confusing mess of parenthesis, this system is not quite balanced. On top of this, I certainly do not think it will work for everything. This is made for creatures that have both a moderate LA and a good deal of racial HD. Because of this, Pixies and such will be relatively unaffected, which might mean that this system can work for them too. If anyone has any suggestions to round off this method and fix the minor imbalance please post. Otherwise, I encourage all of you who are interested to experiment in your own campaigns (assuming your DM is lenient enough to allow it).
Darkmeer 04-21-05, 09:10 PM	It all comes down to how you do it. Under your system, Trolls would recieve a lower level adjustment (even in non-powergaming hands, their LA seems low). Anyhoo, Dragons are difficult creatures to use in a game. I have a copper dragon PC that uses a monster class from Dragon magazine. The reason I bring this up is that it makes more sense to see the abilities broken down over many levels. It also helps to alleviate any problems that the player and I have with the LA. I'd try finding the back copy (don't have a number, but it had a big silver dragon on the cover) to help adjust for dragons. As far as your system goes, I typically find that -1 LA per 3-4 hd is a little more balanced. This covers most creatures with minor spell-like abilities pretty well, but doesn't help with highly magical creatures such as outsiders, dragons, and illithids. It almost seems that there needs to be a double standard (but I don't know what it should be). I do think the LA system is a little overbearing, but it is okay to use by itself. Remember, that same silver dragon would have the gear of a 15th level character, which has to account for something. Gear+LA tends to make stronger monsters. :twocents:
CrimsonPhoenix 04-21-05, 09:32 PM	I accidentally calculated part of that wrong. It was supposed to be 1 LA per 3 HD, not 2 HD. That would make the same dragon mentioned above an 11th level character, not 10th. I don't know how I managed to let that one slip by my proofreading. In any case, this was designed not so much to balance a whole lot better but to allow these characters to be played before extremely high levels. The LA system would give you better gear in the long run, but you wouldn't even be playing the character until several levels later. Dragons are especially annoying with this since the earliest you can get a Med. sized dragon is 12th, and then you have to roleplay a baby :confused: . The dragons I have played are all at least in the Very Young age catagory, most of the time Young. This LA removal system will leave the gold dragon with LA +2 and most others with +1 or 0, which seems about right (the gold stats are clearly better than the others).
steenan 04-22-05, 03:55 PM	I would go with -1 LA for 4 or 5 racial HD for dragons (or outsiders) - their HD is very strong, nearly a class level. -1 LA for 3 HD is good for monstrous humanoids, magical beasts and shapechangers, while -1 LA for 2 HD for humanoids, giants, fey and aberrations. The numbers are from a system I use for evaluating ECLs. It's playtested and works quite good.