LA - Do you use it? [Archive] - Wizards Community

LA - Do you use it? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
mwbeeler
10-18-05, 07:09 AM Personally, I loathe it. My personal tendency is to treat level adjustments as "blank slate" class levels using D6 per and 2 skill points.
Lord Schpungus
10-18-05, 08:04 AM What do you mean, do we use it? It's an integral part of the system. LA is supposed to be a penalty. Giving any hp and skills is practically negating any balance the LA ever had.
Starmage21
10-18-05, 08:36 AM Depends on the situation.
If im starting a game at higher than 1st level, and my player wants to play a half celestial or something, then i make him deal with the LA.

If a player achieves a template or some kind of power through role-playing, then the last thing im going to do is penalize his character by assigning an LA. For instance: The party wizard just happens to be evil, and decides that when he has the resouces he wants to research becoming a lich. I definitely make him research the process, and take a few adventures for exotic components and whatnot, but the last thing im going to do is cheapen his achievement with an LA adjustment.
Temrek
10-18-05, 09:08 AM Depends on the situation.
If im starting a game at higher than 1st level, and my player wants to play a half celestial or something, then i make him deal with the LA.

If a player achieves a template or some kind of power through role-playing, then the last thing im going to do is penalize his character by assigning an LA. For instance: The party wizard just happens to be evil, and decides that when he has the resouces he wants to research becoming a lich. I definitely make him research the process, and take a few adventures for exotic components and whatnot, but the last thing im going to do is cheapen his achievement with an LA adjustment.

I agree with what he said.
Cymraegmorgan
10-18-05, 12:19 PM I make racial LAs a frontloaded buyout.
Turn the character's level adjustment into maximum experience for the level indicated(for example, an LA +1 is 999xp), and make that the character's negative xp total.
The character is first level in all respects(including xp awards), but for having a negative xp total.
legophreak
10-18-05, 01:14 PM I make racial LAs a frontloaded buyout.
Turn the character's level adjustment into maximum experience for the level indicated(for example, an LA +1 is 999xp), and make that the character's negative xp total.
The character is first level in all respects(including xp awards), but for having a negative xp total.

That's the way we are playing our current Campaign. One guy wanted to be a goliath, and since we started at level 1, the DM told him he was -1000 XP. Still works out to be the same i believe. He will always be 1 level behind us...
Cymraegmorgan
10-18-05, 01:58 PM That's the way we are playing our current Campaign. One guy wanted to be a goliath, and since we started at level 1, the DM told him he was -1000 XP. Still works out to be the same i believe. He will always be 1 level behind us...

He will probably catch up about level seven, as those little bits of extra xp he gets for being lower level begin to build up. That is what makes this method for LA so great. It is not a permanent gimp to a cool character.
legophreak
10-18-05, 02:30 PM He will probably catch up about level seven, as those little bits of extra xp he gets for being lower level begin to build up. That is what makes this method for LA so great. It is not a permanent gimp to a cool character.

Yeah. I think realistically you could only get away with it at +1 LA, or maybe even +2 if a lot of the other classes have high stats.

Maybe that's just because i don't quite understand the buying off LA levels as explained in UA.
Cymraegmorgan
10-18-05, 02:44 PM Maybe that's just because i don't quite understand the buying off LA levels as explained in UA.

That is why I do it the simpler way. :D
mwbeeler
10-19-05, 08:59 AM Hmmm, the negative xp concept isn't bad at all; I might just try something like that.

I guess my biggest problem is I find LA to be really unbalancing compared to a character of comparative level. I mean, a 3rd level fighter vs. a 1st level drow? Or a 9th level Fighter vs. a 1st level minotaur? Why would anyone pick anything but one of the core races passed +1 LA the way things are laid out? It especially rules out fun things like lycanthropy. Can you honestly tell me that a Drow-werewolf lord is comparative to an 11th level pc? Losing all those hitpoints, saves, and skills just sucks the joy out of the whole experience. In that vein, I really like the split up animal + template class, but again, there are three good levels with no hitpoints, no skills, and no saves. Is what the monster class gets for that level simply that much better that a fighter's bonus feat or a wizard's spells that it precludes them getting anything else that level?
Cymraegmorgan
10-19-05, 02:33 PM And if you work out it out on paper those high LA creatures actually benefit from my way, because the are considered first level(in all regards) until that negative xp is burned off. So when their compatriots are sixth level, and they are still "1st level", there is a nice chunk of extra xp for the guy with the high LA. I think this particular method puts the level adjustment in balance, for all of the examples you point out, mwbeeler.
Cynlas
10-20-05, 07:23 PM Well, as I can see no way around keeping an LA adjustment in the game, I have basically done what it was supposed to do according to some write ups, only I have complicated it on the front end of things in order to make its use in actual play a bit easier for the players (who continually get confused by their multitude of different "levels":

First, you look at their beginning, Class level 1, ECL and compare it to the basic XP table. In this case, a 1/2 Celestial Ranger 1 would be an ECL 5, which according to the XP table, would "have" 10,000 XP, and need to reach 15,000 XP to get to level "2". However, I instead, subtract the 10,000 XP from the necessary XP needed for all future level gains. This both zeroes out the character's starting XP (which at level 1 should be 0), and balances this with reducing all future levels by the same amount "lost", but while still preserving the intended "penalty" of needing more xp pr level than an equivalent level character would need.

In this case, instead of needing the 1,000 XP that a "normal" character needs to reach 2nd level, the 1/2 Celestial needs to reach 5,000 XP to reach it. To make things even easier for the player, I print up a copy of "their" XP table so that they easily know what they need to get to the next level, without having to reinvent the wheel each level or use "adjusted xp" or other fudging.

Granted, I do not think that such a system will be too useful for those of you still using the "level-based" XP (instead of the system in UA which I eventually moved to); though it is still workable if you, as the DM, keep track of everyones LAs in order to continue to accurately assess the Average Party Level for xp determination.

This way, the 1/2 Nutball players can still think of their characters as simply a "Paladin 6"; while you, as DM, still treat them as the ECL 10 character they really are.

Yes, I try and keep it as simple as possible for the players; just my style, yes it is more work for me, but it eliminates many arguments and headaches as I have to re-explain many things repeatedly when I don't (arguments from those trying to conveiniently mistake their ECL to determine Caster Level, but use a class level to avoid losing any XP; but there are those who after multiclassing and then inheriting an LA get genuinely confused); and it generally makes things more enjoyable for the players in the end.

I really do like the suggestion, however, of not penalizing a player due to contracting or otherwise gaining a template (like Lycanthropy) which then screws up their character progression due to their new ECL. Unfortunately, I have not found any other way to emphasize that such a thing is always a "Curse" and not a desireable thing. As becomeing a Vampire or Were-Nut creates a circumstance where their new condition should absorb their attention and resources, effectively derailing them from their original "plans"; especially moreso than is typically played by the afflicted character. As these statuses can be removed (especially at the levels I tend to introduce them) rather easily, then I cannot justify to myself (as DM) reducing or not applying the metagame penalty. As a PC who likes the various flavors of Were-nuts, I want to find such a rationale, but I cannot really do so, other than the simple "I shouldn't penalize the player"; but then, should I then refrain from killing an equally unfortunate PC when their time is up for the same reason?

The last campaign I ran we actually had a character get infected by a wereboar, and so it became a big decision for the Player to either get it fixed, or to allow the curse to become permanent. As the player did choose to keep the "curse", they were fully hit with the appropriate modifiers and "penalties". The character easily became the most powerful tank of the party, but such was not particularly desired by the Rogue/Cleric that quickly got consumed by the brute force of the Lycanthropy, undermining the actual clerical status and "power" originally sought by the character/Player.
SKB
10-25-05, 02:38 AM Side Question: If using the standard LA rules and UA buyoff, what would be the break even point for a +2 LA based on a 4 PC party?
strumbleduck
10-25-05, 04:45 AM I guess my biggest problem is I find LA to be really unbalancing compared to a character of comparative level. I mean, a 3rd level fighter vs. a 1st level drow? Or a 9th level Fighter vs. a 1st level minotaur? Why would anyone pick anything but one of the core races passed +1 LA the way things are laid out?

I would gladly play a minotaur character -- it's not very diffferent from playing a straight barbarian. Actually, I see this argument a lot, and I'm always puzzled by it. Why do you think that LA creatures are underpowered?
Gilean
10-25-05, 09:12 AM I would gladly play a minotaur character -- it's not very diffferent from playing a straight barbarian. Actually, I see this argument a lot, and I'm always puzzled by it. Why do you think that LA creatures are underpowered?Take one with little or no natural HD. Give 1 or 0 class levels. Compare to standard race.
Alternatively, high levels also penalise LA'd characters, as the natural powers they have start to pale in comparison to class abilities gained.
strumbleduck
10-25-05, 01:40 PM Take one with little or no natural HD. Give 1 or 0 class levels. Compare to standard race.

Right, so it's true that a LA +2 creature with no racial Hit Dice and only 1 class level will be underpowered, but he'll balance out when he gains a few levels.

Alternatively, high levels also penalise LA'd characters, as the natural powers they have start to pale in comparison to class abilities gained.

Only spellcasters really get super abilities at high levels. I'd expect that a minotaur barbarian 12 is about the same as a barbarian 20.

I'm fixating a little on minotaur here because I tried making one, and my minotaur barbarian 4 ended up almost exactly the same as a barbarian 12. It had fewer hit points, fewer feats and skills, no DR yet, higher damage, higher AC, and better saves. I expect the way that WotC chose LA's for monsters is they actually tried making a character for each monster, and then estimated how powerful the character was.
Shmatt
10-25-05, 02:56 PM Personally, i was first ecstatic over the new LA rules, however after reading through, it gets progressively harder the higher the LA...

a mind flayer won't start burning away LA until level 21...

personally, i feel that having the character gain experience without the addition of LA would work slightly better, although eventually this will then make them more powerful than non-LA characters
Cynlas
10-25-05, 03:45 PM Side Question: If using the standard LA rules and UA buyoff, what would be the break even point for a +2 LA based on a 4 PC party?

Well, based on how I interpreted (and implemented) the rules, for a LA +2 critter, you will effectively be put back to a normal advancement by 13th level (as in needing the same amount of xp to move from one level to the next, rather than looking at specific total xp).
Tenzhi
10-28-05, 04:03 AM What do you mean, do we use it? It's an integral part of the system. LA is supposed to be a penalty. Giving any hp and skills is practically negating any balance the LA ever had.

For a number of builds, the lack of hit points makes LA severely unbalanced especially at early levels. Adding HP without adding the other benefits of level (chiefly BAB and Saves, but one could say skills as well) can actually serve to make LA more balanced rather than less.

Personally, I don't like the LA system for a variety of reasons, and often modifyy the LAs even when I use them. Were I feeling ambitious, I would make seperate XP tables (I use the Level-Independent XP Reward variant) for +1/+2/+3/etc. LA, perhaps up to +10, each needing more XP per level than the last (and perhaps a couple of lesser tables for disadvantaged critters). Not only do I think this would be more balanced in the long run, but it could also be useful as a class-balancing aide (allowing one to move classes to different XP schedules based on relative power as necessary - and if you had a +2 monster in a +1 class, it would be on the +3 table).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mwbeeler 10-18-05, 07:09 AM	Personally, I loathe it. My personal tendency is to treat level adjustments as "blank slate" class levels using D6 per and 2 skill points.
Lord Schpungus 10-18-05, 08:04 AM	What do you mean, do we use it? It's an integral part of the system. LA is supposed to be a penalty. Giving any hp and skills is practically negating any balance the LA ever had.
Starmage21 10-18-05, 08:36 AM	Depends on the situation. If im starting a game at higher than 1st level, and my player wants to play a half celestial or something, then i make him deal with the LA. If a player achieves a template or some kind of power through role-playing, then the last thing im going to do is penalize his character by assigning an LA. For instance: The party wizard just happens to be evil, and decides that when he has the resouces he wants to research becoming a lich. I definitely make him research the process, and take a few adventures for exotic components and whatnot, but the last thing im going to do is cheapen his achievement with an LA adjustment.
Temrek 10-18-05, 09:08 AM	Depends on the situation. If im starting a game at higher than 1st level, and my player wants to play a half celestial or something, then i make him deal with the LA. If a player achieves a template or some kind of power through role-playing, then the last thing im going to do is penalize his character by assigning an LA. For instance: The party wizard just happens to be evil, and decides that when he has the resouces he wants to research becoming a lich. I definitely make him research the process, and take a few adventures for exotic components and whatnot, but the last thing im going to do is cheapen his achievement with an LA adjustment. I agree with what he said.
Cymraegmorgan 10-18-05, 12:19 PM	I make racial LAs a frontloaded buyout. Turn the character's level adjustment into maximum experience for the level indicated(for example, an LA +1 is 999xp), and make that the character's negative xp total. The character is first level in all respects(including xp awards), but for having a negative xp total.
legophreak 10-18-05, 01:14 PM	I make racial LAs a frontloaded buyout. Turn the character's level adjustment into maximum experience for the level indicated(for example, an LA +1 is 999xp), and make that the character's negative xp total. The character is first level in all respects(including xp awards), but for having a negative xp total. That's the way we are playing our current Campaign. One guy wanted to be a goliath, and since we started at level 1, the DM told him he was -1000 XP. Still works out to be the same i believe. He will always be 1 level behind us...
Cymraegmorgan 10-18-05, 01:58 PM	That's the way we are playing our current Campaign. One guy wanted to be a goliath, and since we started at level 1, the DM told him he was -1000 XP. Still works out to be the same i believe. He will always be 1 level behind us... He will probably catch up about level seven, as those little bits of extra xp he gets for being lower level begin to build up. That is what makes this method for LA so great. It is not a permanent gimp to a cool character.
legophreak 10-18-05, 02:30 PM	He will probably catch up about level seven, as those little bits of extra xp he gets for being lower level begin to build up. That is what makes this method for LA so great. It is not a permanent gimp to a cool character. Yeah. I think realistically you could only get away with it at +1 LA, or maybe even +2 if a lot of the other classes have high stats. Maybe that's just because i don't quite understand the buying off LA levels as explained in UA.
Cymraegmorgan 10-18-05, 02:44 PM	Maybe that's just because i don't quite understand the buying off LA levels as explained in UA. That is why I do it the simpler way. :D
mwbeeler 10-19-05, 08:59 AM	Hmmm, the negative xp concept isn't bad at all; I might just try something like that. I guess my biggest problem is I find LA to be really unbalancing compared to a character of comparative level. I mean, a 3rd level fighter vs. a 1st level drow? Or a 9th level Fighter vs. a 1st level minotaur? Why would anyone pick anything but one of the core races passed +1 LA the way things are laid out? It especially rules out fun things like lycanthropy. Can you honestly tell me that a Drow-werewolf lord is comparative to an 11th level pc? Losing all those hitpoints, saves, and skills just sucks the joy out of the whole experience. In that vein, I really like the split up animal + template class, but again, there are three good levels with no hitpoints, no skills, and no saves. Is what the monster class gets for that level simply that much better that a fighter's bonus feat or a wizard's spells that it precludes them getting anything else that level?
Cymraegmorgan 10-19-05, 02:33 PM	And if you work out it out on paper those high LA creatures actually benefit from my way, because the are considered first level(in all regards) until that negative xp is burned off. So when their compatriots are sixth level, and they are still "1st level", there is a nice chunk of extra xp for the guy with the high LA. I think this particular method puts the level adjustment in balance, for all of the examples you point out, mwbeeler.
Cynlas 10-20-05, 07:23 PM	Well, as I can see no way around keeping an LA adjustment in the game, I have basically done what it was supposed to do according to some write ups, only I have complicated it on the front end of things in order to make its use in actual play a bit easier for the players (who continually get confused by their multitude of different "levels": First, you look at their beginning, Class level 1, ECL and compare it to the basic XP table. In this case, a 1/2 Celestial Ranger 1 would be an ECL 5, which according to the XP table, would "have" 10,000 XP, and need to reach 15,000 XP to get to level "2". However, I instead, subtract the 10,000 XP from the necessary XP needed for all future level gains. This both zeroes out the character's starting XP (which at level 1 should be 0), and balances this with reducing all future levels by the same amount "lost", but while still preserving the intended "penalty" of needing more xp pr level than an equivalent level character would need. In this case, instead of needing the 1,000 XP that a "normal" character needs to reach 2nd level, the 1/2 Celestial needs to reach 5,000 XP to reach it. To make things even easier for the player, I print up a copy of "their" XP table so that they easily know what they need to get to the next level, without having to reinvent the wheel each level or use "adjusted xp" or other fudging. Granted, I do not think that such a system will be too useful for those of you still using the "level-based" XP (instead of the system in UA which I eventually moved to); though it is still workable if you, as the DM, keep track of everyones LAs in order to continue to accurately assess the Average Party Level for xp determination. This way, the 1/2 Nutball players can still think of their characters as simply a "Paladin 6"; while you, as DM, still treat them as the ECL 10 character they really are. Yes, I try and keep it as simple as possible for the players; just my style, yes it is more work for me, but it eliminates many arguments and headaches as I have to re-explain many things repeatedly when I don't (arguments from those trying to conveiniently mistake their ECL to determine Caster Level, but use a class level to avoid losing any XP; but there are those who after multiclassing and then inheriting an LA get genuinely confused); and it generally makes things more enjoyable for the players in the end. I really do like the suggestion, however, of not penalizing a player due to contracting or otherwise gaining a template (like Lycanthropy) which then screws up their character progression due to their new ECL. Unfortunately, I have not found any other way to emphasize that such a thing is always a "Curse" and not a desireable thing. As becomeing a Vampire or Were-Nut creates a circumstance where their new condition should absorb their attention and resources, effectively derailing them from their original "plans"; especially moreso than is typically played by the afflicted character. As these statuses can be removed (especially at the levels I tend to introduce them) rather easily, then I cannot justify to myself (as DM) reducing or not applying the metagame penalty. As a PC who likes the various flavors of Were-nuts, I want to find such a rationale, but I cannot really do so, other than the simple "I shouldn't penalize the player"; but then, should I then refrain from killing an equally unfortunate PC when their time is up for the same reason? The last campaign I ran we actually had a character get infected by a wereboar, and so it became a big decision for the Player to either get it fixed, or to allow the curse to become permanent. As the player did choose to keep the "curse", they were fully hit with the appropriate modifiers and "penalties". The character easily became the most powerful tank of the party, but such was not particularly desired by the Rogue/Cleric that quickly got consumed by the brute force of the Lycanthropy, undermining the actual clerical status and "power" originally sought by the character/Player.
SKB 10-25-05, 02:38 AM	Side Question: If using the standard LA rules and UA buyoff, what would be the break even point for a +2 LA based on a 4 PC party?
strumbleduck 10-25-05, 04:45 AM	I guess my biggest problem is I find LA to be really unbalancing compared to a character of comparative level. I mean, a 3rd level fighter vs. a 1st level drow? Or a 9th level Fighter vs. a 1st level minotaur? Why would anyone pick anything but one of the core races passed +1 LA the way things are laid out? I would gladly play a minotaur character -- it's not very diffferent from playing a straight barbarian. Actually, I see this argument a lot, and I'm always puzzled by it. Why do you think that LA creatures are underpowered?
Gilean 10-25-05, 09:12 AM	I would gladly play a minotaur character -- it's not very diffferent from playing a straight barbarian. Actually, I see this argument a lot, and I'm always puzzled by it. Why do you think that LA creatures are underpowered?Take one with little or no natural HD. Give 1 or 0 class levels. Compare to standard race. Alternatively, high levels also penalise LA'd characters, as the natural powers they have start to pale in comparison to class abilities gained.
strumbleduck 10-25-05, 01:40 PM	Take one with little or no natural HD. Give 1 or 0 class levels. Compare to standard race. Right, so it's true that a LA +2 creature with no racial Hit Dice and only 1 class level will be underpowered, but he'll balance out when he gains a few levels. Alternatively, high levels also penalise LA'd characters, as the natural powers they have start to pale in comparison to class abilities gained. Only spellcasters really get super abilities at high levels. I'd expect that a minotaur barbarian 12 is about the same as a barbarian 20. I'm fixating a little on minotaur here because I tried making one, and my minotaur barbarian 4 ended up almost exactly the same as a barbarian 12. It had fewer hit points, fewer feats and skills, no DR yet, higher damage, higher AC, and better saves. I expect the way that WotC chose LA's for monsters is they actually tried making a character for each monster, and then estimated how powerful the character was.
Shmatt 10-25-05, 02:56 PM	Personally, i was first ecstatic over the new LA rules, however after reading through, it gets progressively harder the higher the LA... a mind flayer won't start burning away LA until level 21... personally, i feel that having the character gain experience without the addition of LA would work slightly better, although eventually this will then make them more powerful than non-LA characters
Cynlas 10-25-05, 03:45 PM	Side Question: If using the standard LA rules and UA buyoff, what would be the break even point for a +2 LA based on a 4 PC party? Well, based on how I interpreted (and implemented) the rules, for a LA +2 critter, you will effectively be put back to a normal advancement by 13th level (as in needing the same amount of xp to move from one level to the next, rather than looking at specific total xp).
Tenzhi 10-28-05, 04:03 AM	What do you mean, do we use it? It's an integral part of the system. LA is supposed to be a penalty. Giving any hp and skills is practically negating any balance the LA ever had. For a number of builds, the lack of hit points makes LA severely unbalanced especially at early levels. Adding HP without adding the other benefits of level (chiefly BAB and Saves, but one could say skills as well) can actually serve to make LA more balanced rather than less. Personally, I don't like the LA system for a variety of reasons, and often modifyy the LAs even when I use them. Were I feeling ambitious, I would make seperate XP tables (I use the Level-Independent XP Reward variant) for +1/+2/+3/etc. LA, perhaps up to +10, each needing more XP per level than the last (and perhaps a couple of lesser tables for disadvantaged critters). Not only do I think this would be more balanced in the long run, but it could also be useful as a class-balancing aide (allowing one to move classes to different XP schedules based on relative power as necessary - and if you had a +2 monster in a +1 class, it would be on the +3 table).