Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MessiahOmega 11-06-05, 07:45 AM	nah, languages are good. i just want some input on this house rule though, because at the moment, languages are kinda dullish.... rule: you get a +1 bonus to checks that imply communication (ie bluff, diplomacy, ect) if you speak the native languge of the person (or thing) listening make sense? it sort of implies that the listener is impressed that the speaker grasps their language. i got the idea while watching Enterprise (2 days and 2 nights was the episode).
legophreak 11-06-05, 09:32 AM	nah, languages are good. i just want some input on this house rule though, because at the moment, languages are kinda dullish.... rule: you get a +1 bonus to checks that imply communication (ie bluff, diplomacy, ect) if you speak the native languge of the person (or thing) listening make sense? it sort of implies that the listener is impressed that the speaker grasps their language. i got the idea while watching Enterprise (2 days and 2 nights was the episode). This wouldn't be too bad if in your game not everyone spoke common all the time, or if everyone spoke common, but there were different dialects of common. Like slang or something where one word means another in another culture. I think the bonus would apply in that regard...
Xeviat-DM 11-06-05, 03:10 PM	In my game, I increased the number and variety of languages. They are grouped into several broad categories, but with some variations within. First off, Common is now known as Trade, and it is a bastardized language mixed with simplistic terms taken from the other languages. It has very few words (for instance, one couldn't describe pink with one word in trade, one would have to say light red or redish white) and isn't great at conveying meaning quickly. It was created to, you guessed it, facilitate trade (as a side note, since the halflings of my setting didn't have a unified language when they were discovered by the humans, halflings took the human trade tongue and eventually turned it into their own language; think cockney). Then, I have four continents; each continent has a Human, Dwarven, Elven, Goblin, and Orc language, but each continent has their own version of it. I've been considering options or a different way to run the Speak Language skill. 1 rank would allow one to speak, 2 would allow one to read and write, but I'm not sure what additional ranks would grant. Characters other than barbarians would get 2 ranks in all of their starting languages. Ancient and Planar languages (Draconic, Giant, Celestial, Abyssal, Fiendish) wouldn't fall into these categories; they have little variation. I guess a -2 penalty to certain skill checks when one can't speak an exact language matching the targets (such as one speaking a different form of elven), or speaking through common, would probably do great things to get the players to think more about their character's languages.
FlameLover 11-06-05, 04:38 PM	Yeah in my world only Humans speak Common so languages become more importent when you don't share a common tounge. As for the system I have each language have a seperate rank (like Knowledge does) and you range from 0 to 4 in ranks where 0 is no proficiency and 4 is mastery of a language. I havn't got different dialects like was mentioned above but you get bonuses/penalties on social skills based on your language proficiency plus other related ones. So if you have ranks in a language that shares the same alphabet you gain a +2 bonus etc. Basically with level 3 or 4 you understand things without a check while 0-2 require either Sense Motive or Decipher Script checks (whether verbal or written). I havn't fully worked out the details yet but that's the jist of it. But if you're sticking with the D&D system then your idea sounds fine ;)
savant_warlord13 11-06-05, 04:46 PM	it shouldn't apply to common
Gilean 11-07-05, 10:16 AM	There should be no common. See modern world, and we are a lot more connected than your average D&D world.
DrMorganes 11-07-05, 10:59 AM	This next comment is likely to be viewed as conceited by some, but one could argue that English is the Common language of The Real World (TM). At a minimum, it's certainly the Trade language.
Jerks 11-07-05, 11:21 AM	I've abolished the ideal of a Common language. While I don't have a problem with this type of concept in a future campaign (because of the possibility of some universal translators or Esperanto type language development), it really bothers me in a medieval setting. Even if you make the broad assumption that language was created by the gods as a gift to man it just doesn't make sense. Using the Alternity: Dark Matter campaign setting, I've designed a language structure for my own games. In that game you can purchase as many as 12 ranks in a language. Higher ranks basically give you synergy bonuses to winning friends and influencing people. Condensed down to D&D terms I came up with this No ranks = Body language and communication through signs. Take a -4 penalty on any check requiring communication. In general, you can only succeed at checks with a DC 10 or lower. Rank 1 = Basic communication, crude familiarity with the language. Any skill checks requiring this language take a -4 nonproficiency penalty. Rank 2 = Full proficiency. You can communicate both basic and advanced ideals. Rank 3 = Literacy. You can read and write this language. Alternately, for dead languages you could learn to read it at rank 1 and proceed to learn to speak it from there. Rank 4 = Dialect fluency. You can communicate with speakers of other languages in your language group as if you had 1 rank in that language. [In effect you do. If you learn one of these languages 1 rank grants you full proficiency] Rank 5 = Mastery. Only the most successfull Diplomats reach this level of proficiency. Any skills using language gain a +2 synergy bonus when used against someone with at least full proficiency in the language.
Jerks 11-07-05, 11:26 AM	This next comment is likely to be viewed as conceited by some, but one could argue that English is the Common language of The Real World (TM). At a minimum, it's certainly the Trade language. Throughout modern history there have been a number of attempts at a lingua franca. For a time, German was the language of mathematics because the best science was coming out of Germany. In order to read the papers, you pretty much had to study German. The U.N. has 5 official languages I think to cut down on the number and variety of translators it takes to staff the place. English and French are two of them. Many countries teach their grade school kids English to give them a better chance at business opportunities. However, if you travel the world with only English proficiency you're bound to have some problems along the way. It's widespread, but far from as universal as Common is regarded in D&D.
RaspK FOG 11-07-05, 03:32 PM	First of all, you should probably read some real campaign resources: the old 2e campaigns, as well as the FRCS (I think this applies to Eberron too), had a rather long listing of the various languages in the setting, and their information is a good groundwork for any such DM cooked up fluff! Another thing: you forget that most campaign settings take place in only one continent; it is true that most people who are traveling with the expectation of making business with others learn a few languages and other tidbits, and English does tend to play this role in both Europe and the USA... Finally, common is supposed to be a mish-match of various catchphrases relating to trade, so I think pink should be found in it (just like people say burgundy or bordeau [spelling?] and they mean almost the same thing colourwise).
Gilean 11-08-05, 09:51 AM	There is no specific word for pink in Finnish, though pink is occasionally used ("pinkki"). The equivalent translation would be "light red" (vaaleanpunainen). So, no, it is not a necessary word by any means.
RaspK FOG 11-08-05, 12:19 PM	There is no specific word for pink in Finnish, though pink is occasionally used ("pinkki"). The equivalent translation would be "light red" (vaaleanpunainen). So, no, it is not a necessary word by any means.Saying so means you've never had the pleasure to listen to a real trading language, or any language heavily influenced by other languages: the Germans say "pommes frittes," and so do a few other peoples in Europe, which is the French equivalent of "French fries" or "chips." And they use the word "Apotheke" (Greek for "warehouse" as well as any other room made for storage), which means "apothecary/pharmacy." "Father" is derived from the German "Vater" (pronounced "Fatter"), which in turn is derived from the Latin "pater" which is derived from the Greek pa-TEER (which, when calling one, was called out as PA-tehr), which in turn is derived from Sanscrit! In actual languages made in demand of a common linguage (something that, more or less, naturally occurs with little intervention), words used are a mish-mash, so there would be any word that best described the term in question!
YanYaoMo 11-08-05, 02:19 PM	Actually, the German word "Vatter" is not from Latin, it is from the Proto Indo-European root word p'ter, nor was the Latin derived from Greek. Infact, Latin and Greek evolved along different linguistic paths from PIE, as did German. Greek pretty much has its own, but German evolved along the "Germanic" path, Latin along the "Italic". All of these developed independantly of Sanskrit, whichthough it has the same roots as PIE, is not part of the Indo-European grouping, but the Indo-Iranian linguistic family.
RaspK FOG 11-09-05, 10:32 AM	Actually, the German word "Vatter" is not from Latin, it is from the Proto Indo-European root word p'ter, nor was the Latin derived from Greek. Infact, Latin and Greek evolved along different linguistic paths from PIE, as did German. Greek pretty much has its own, but German evolved along the "Germanic" path, Latin along the "Italic". All of these developed independantly of Sanskrit, whichthough it has the same roots as PIE, is not part of the Indo-European grouping, but the Indo-Iranian linguistic family.What ever: different literary education. :P (And the German is STILL "Vater", not "Vatter." ;)) However, the point is that ALL of them have the same root, which presents us with the fact that words are widely spread over such an area as Europe.
larry_the_titan 11-09-05, 04:59 PM	Alright I know this is about the languages in the D&D but now your getting into discussions about the real world. So stop it. Common in the game is common to Adventures but if Dms want to make it useful for characters to know other languages try Making Npc that dont speak it. Or even have characters that dont. It might change abit of the game when the bard is the only one who spoke common and nothing else. Other things that would change the game is making a town have their own common Language but Bartenders and Maids at the Taverns are the only ones with a few other that speak other Languages. Then trade become more common then common.
Rogal Dorn 11-12-05, 10:45 AM	i have also abolished common in my campaign world. instead of it, there is the Free TradersīTongue, the ThievesīTongue and, to an extent, the Common Tongue of Slaves (yeah, itīs from DS, but itīs good ;) ), all of whitch are mixtures of other languages. every land or power block has its own language(s) with variations depending on social status. i think MessiahOmegas idea is really good, thatīs why iīm going to steal it. shamelessly. ;). as a small addition, there will be the same penalties, too, for example if you talk to a nobleman in the slave tongue.