Less randomly-lethal Wound/Vitality [Archive] - Wizards Community

Less randomly-lethal Wound/Vitality [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
highbulp
06-21-07, 11:29 AM So I'm in love with the Wound/Vitality system. I love the flavor (such as how vitality hits aren't actually connecting blows), and it works really well with the custom "wound" system I made up. I only have one problem with it--or rather, my players only have one problem with it.

As the normal rules, we've been having critical hits go straight to Wound. I do like this because when someone takes/deal a critical hit, it's a big deal and everyone notices. I also like that there is a way to get to Wound points without having to drop all of the Vitality points--it's not just another dozen HP tacked onto the end of your normal stuff.

The problem is, an occassional nasty critical will drop a player during a fight. They are able to heal up later, but if you take a bad critical the first round of combat, you're out of combat and stuck doing nothing while everyone else plays. Now part of this might be that the group doesn't have much healing power (so can't really heal during combat), but it still strikes me as a small flaw in the system. Indeed, SW Saga Edition cited this problem (the almost random lethality of the system) as a major reason why the got rid of Wound/Vitality.

So my question is: how can I make critical hits slightly less lethal, without losing the flavor/mechanics/effects of the Wound/Vitality system? My current thought is to maybe have people make a save when they receive a critical hit to turn it into vitality damage (maybe double vitality damage?). I'm also considering adding Action Points, and then making it possible to spend an Action Point to reduce a critical hit to a normal hit. Do you guys have any other suggestions?
Hugin
06-21-07, 12:55 PM I came across the same problem in my games until we came up with this:
The first die (or normal damage) still applies against your vitality points. The 'extra' di(c)e applies against your wound points. So a weapon with a x2 critical would have the 'second' die rolled as wound point damage. A x3 critical weapon would have the two 'extra' dice rolled as wound point damage. If more wounds points are lost than you have, the excess goes to hit points.

I can't remember the official way wound/vitality works, but for us, reaching 0 hit points causes fatigue This is true with a loss of at least 1 wound point as well. Losing all wound points while still having hit points left causes exhaustion.
highbulp
06-21-07, 03:41 PM I came across the same problem in my games until we came up with this:
The first die (or normal damage) still applies against your vitality points. The 'extra' di(c)e applies against your wound points. So a weapon with a x2 critical would have the 'second' die rolled as wound point damage. A x3 critical weapon would have the two 'extra' dice rolled as wound point damage. If more wounds points are lost than you have, the excess goes to hit points.

We had been using the listed rule that all critical multipliers change to increased range increments, so you get more crits that do less damage. But I'm planning on just reducing all weapon's crit mods by 1 (so most weapons will have a x1 crit multiplier, doing no extra damage), so that there are less crits but some weapons can still hurt a lot.
Arcade
06-22-07, 08:47 AM From the sounds of it, the problem is that a critical can drop someone very easily.

Perhaps the way to do it is to reduce the vitality points and increase the wound points so that a critical isn't so deadly. For instance, give characters twice as many wound points and reduce the vitality points by the same amount. This way, such lucky crits are very painful, but not deadly for the first round.

Also, you can throw in a rule that if you take more than half your wound points, you suffer an additional penalty. Sort of like making a condition track from Saga. That way vitality loss is still an issue.

You can also make sure that natural 20's are not automatic hits by using either an additional roll or by counting it as a 30.

Finally, if using a variant such as armor as DR, allow DR to still count as protection against criticals or at least convert it to vitality (I do this despite the way the rules are written).
highbulp
06-22-07, 11:13 AM From the sounds of it, the problem is that a critical can drop someone very easily.

Perhaps the way to do it is to reduce the vitality points and increase the wound points so that a critical isn't so deadly. For instance, give characters twice as many wound points and reduce the vitality points by the same amount. This way, such lucky crits are very painful, but not deadly for the first round.

That's a thought. I could also just increase the number of Wound Points people have, so that normal weapon blows aren't quickly lethal. But that exacerbates another small problem, which is the "hacking-away" nature of D&D combat--you get to the point where the PCs have a creature down to Wound, but are still hacking away at it until it finally keels over. If these creatures are intelligent they run away, but it still can get a little tedious.

Also, you can throw in a rule that if you take more than half your wound points, you suffer an additional penalty. Sort of like making a condition track from Saga. That way vitality loss is still an issue.

I've actually considered trying to implement the condition track from Saga, but two things are holding me back: 1) I'd have to write conversion mechanics from D&D saves to Saga Defense scores, which while easy enough, may not quite match up and requires more work, and 2) it takes us back to the abstracted system of HP combat, which is what I'm using wound/vitality to avoid.

twice as many wound points and reduce the vitality points by the same amount. This way, such lucky crits are very painful, but not deadly for the first round.[/QUOTE]

That's a thought. I could also just increase the number of Wound Points people have, so that normal weapon blows aren't quickly lethal. But that exacerbates another small problem, which is the "hacking-away" nature of D&D combat--you get to the point where the PCs have a creature down to Wound, but are still hacking away at it until it finally keels over. If these creatures are intelligent they run away, but it still can get a little tedious.

You can also make sure that natural 20's are not automatic hits by using either an additional roll or by counting it as a 30.

I do this already (20s count as 30s, 1s count as -10s), though I find that in general it still means that a 20 is almost always a hit.

Finally, if using a variant such as armor as DR, allow DR to still count as protection against criticals or at least convert it to vitality (I do this despite the way the rules are written).

I do this already as well. I use a full armor as DR variant (so armor gives DR/- equal to it's normal AC bonus, and to make up for the lowered AC, classes grant a Defense bonus), and say that Armor's DR (which I call Armor Reduction (AR)) counts towards critical hits, but normal DR does not. Also Natural Armor is simply another source of AR.

In general it's really only one guy who is complaining--when we first created this system, he was trying to play an odd wizard/monk gish. He wore no armor, so those could random crits hurt. He was quickly dropped twice before that character finally died, and I think he's just bitter. It hasn't happened as much since the players have started getting the hang of the system (and changing their tactics to deal with it, which is good). The only other instant-drop was when the characters were trying to sneak in somewhere without their armor, and a different character took a nasty crit which dropped him to negatives in the middle of a long combat. It was kind of neat because it ended up turning the tide of the entire campaign, but it did mean he was basically out of commission for the rest of the session.

Right now I'm really leaning towards using Action Points to deal with this. I wanted to try them out anyway, and this way you can try and keep a single blow from instantly downing you. I'm thinking "Spend 2 Action Points to convert a critical hit back to a regular hit. The hit does vitality damage instead of wound damage." The one issue with this is that it means the characters are using AP in response to another action, when normally AP are used to boost an action performed by the characters.
starfire311
06-22-07, 11:33 AM yeah I applied the DR from armor to the damage on a crit... actually I only let the DR from armor, apply to WP damage.

Another way to lesson the effects is to let WP scale with level a bit... maybe WP = Con score + HD

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
highbulp 06-21-07, 11:29 AM	So I'm in love with the Wound/Vitality system. I love the flavor (such as how vitality hits aren't actually connecting blows), and it works really well with the custom "wound" system I made up. I only have one problem with it--or rather, my players only have one problem with it. As the normal rules, we've been having critical hits go straight to Wound. I do like this because when someone takes/deal a critical hit, it's a big deal and everyone notices. I also like that there is a way to get to Wound points without having to drop all of the Vitality points--it's not just another dozen HP tacked onto the end of your normal stuff. The problem is, an occassional nasty critical will drop a player during a fight. They are able to heal up later, but if you take a bad critical the first round of combat, you're out of combat and stuck doing nothing while everyone else plays. Now part of this might be that the group doesn't have much healing power (so can't really heal during combat), but it still strikes me as a small flaw in the system. Indeed, SW Saga Edition cited this problem (the almost random lethality of the system) as a major reason why the got rid of Wound/Vitality. So my question is: how can I make critical hits slightly less lethal, without losing the flavor/mechanics/effects of the Wound/Vitality system? My current thought is to maybe have people make a save when they receive a critical hit to turn it into vitality damage (maybe double vitality damage?). I'm also considering adding Action Points, and then making it possible to spend an Action Point to reduce a critical hit to a normal hit. Do you guys have any other suggestions?
Hugin 06-21-07, 12:55 PM	I came across the same problem in my games until we came up with this: The first die (or normal damage) still applies against your vitality points. The 'extra' di(c)e applies against your wound points. So a weapon with a x2 critical would have the 'second' die rolled as wound point damage. A x3 critical weapon would have the two 'extra' dice rolled as wound point damage. If more wounds points are lost than you have, the excess goes to hit points. I can't remember the official way wound/vitality works, but for us, reaching 0 hit points causes fatigue This is true with a loss of at least 1 wound point as well. Losing all wound points while still having hit points left causes exhaustion.
highbulp 06-21-07, 03:41 PM	I came across the same problem in my games until we came up with this: The first die (or normal damage) still applies against your vitality points. The 'extra' di(c)e applies against your wound points. So a weapon with a x2 critical would have the 'second' die rolled as wound point damage. A x3 critical weapon would have the two 'extra' dice rolled as wound point damage. If more wounds points are lost than you have, the excess goes to hit points. We had been using the listed rule that all critical multipliers change to increased range increments, so you get more crits that do less damage. But I'm planning on just reducing all weapon's crit mods by 1 (so most weapons will have a x1 crit multiplier, doing no extra damage), so that there are less crits but some weapons can still hurt a lot.
Arcade 06-22-07, 08:47 AM	From the sounds of it, the problem is that a critical can drop someone very easily. Perhaps the way to do it is to reduce the vitality points and increase the wound points so that a critical isn't so deadly. For instance, give characters twice as many wound points and reduce the vitality points by the same amount. This way, such lucky crits are very painful, but not deadly for the first round. Also, you can throw in a rule that if you take more than half your wound points, you suffer an additional penalty. Sort of like making a condition track from Saga. That way vitality loss is still an issue. You can also make sure that natural 20's are not automatic hits by using either an additional roll or by counting it as a 30. Finally, if using a variant such as armor as DR, allow DR to still count as protection against criticals or at least convert it to vitality (I do this despite the way the rules are written).
highbulp 06-22-07, 11:13 AM	From the sounds of it, the problem is that a critical can drop someone very easily. Perhaps the way to do it is to reduce the vitality points and increase the wound points so that a critical isn't so deadly. For instance, give characters twice as many wound points and reduce the vitality points by the same amount. This way, such lucky crits are very painful, but not deadly for the first round. That's a thought. I could also just increase the number of Wound Points people have, so that normal weapon blows aren't quickly lethal. But that exacerbates another small problem, which is the "hacking-away" nature of D&D combat--you get to the point where the PCs have a creature down to Wound, but are still hacking away at it until it finally keels over. If these creatures are intelligent they run away, but it still can get a little tedious. Also, you can throw in a rule that if you take more than half your wound points, you suffer an additional penalty. Sort of like making a condition track from Saga. That way vitality loss is still an issue. I've actually considered trying to implement the condition track from Saga, but two things are holding me back: 1) I'd have to write conversion mechanics from D&D saves to Saga Defense scores, which while easy enough, may not quite match up and requires more work, and 2) it takes us back to the abstracted system of HP combat, which is what I'm using wound/vitality to avoid. twice as many wound points and reduce the vitality points by the same amount. This way, such lucky crits are very painful, but not deadly for the first round.[/QUOTE] That's a thought. I could also just increase the number of Wound Points people have, so that normal weapon blows aren't quickly lethal. But that exacerbates another small problem, which is the "hacking-away" nature of D&D combat--you get to the point where the PCs have a creature down to Wound, but are still hacking away at it until it finally keels over. If these creatures are intelligent they run away, but it still can get a little tedious. You can also make sure that natural 20's are not automatic hits by using either an additional roll or by counting it as a 30. I do this already (20s count as 30s, 1s count as -10s), though I find that in general it still means that a 20 is almost always a hit. Finally, if using a variant such as armor as DR, allow DR to still count as protection against criticals or at least convert it to vitality (I do this despite the way the rules are written). I do this already as well. I use a full armor as DR variant (so armor gives DR/- equal to it's normal AC bonus, and to make up for the lowered AC, classes grant a Defense bonus), and say that Armor's DR (which I call Armor Reduction (AR)) counts towards critical hits, but normal DR does not. Also Natural Armor is simply another source of AR. In general it's really only one guy who is complaining--when we first created this system, he was trying to play an odd wizard/monk gish. He wore no armor, so those could random crits hurt. He was quickly dropped twice before that character finally died, and I think he's just bitter. It hasn't happened as much since the players have started getting the hang of the system (and changing their tactics to deal with it, which is good). The only other instant-drop was when the characters were trying to sneak in somewhere without their armor, and a different character took a nasty crit which dropped him to negatives in the middle of a long combat. It was kind of neat because it ended up turning the tide of the entire campaign, but it did mean he was basically out of commission for the rest of the session. Right now I'm really leaning towards using Action Points to deal with this. I wanted to try them out anyway, and this way you can try and keep a single blow from instantly downing you. I'm thinking "Spend 2 Action Points to convert a critical hit back to a regular hit. The hit does vitality damage instead of wound damage." The one issue with this is that it means the characters are using AP in response to another action, when normally AP are used to boost an action performed by the characters.
starfire311 06-22-07, 11:33 AM	yeah I applied the DR from armor to the damage on a crit... actually I only let the DR from armor, apply to WP damage. Another way to lesson the effects is to let WP scale with level a bit... maybe WP = Con score + HD