Let's balance Arcane Domains [Archive] - Wizards Community

Let's balance Arcane Domains [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Hengwrt Ellesmere
03-10-04, 01:20 AM I thought these were really neat until I realized they are totally overpowered. Versus a specialist, a domain wizard gains a lot and only gives up the choice of which extra spell to prepare at each level. Versus a generalist, he gains a lot and gives up nothing.

Now if I use domain wizards, they'll be the only type of wizards. Still, the fact that they are more powerful than the existing types means that they'll also be much more powerful than other classes, and I don't want that. So what can I do to balance them?

For one, I could take away the level bonus for domain spells. This brings the wizard domain in line with the sorcerer bloodlines from Dragon 311, which I'm giving to sorcerers as a fix for free. Now a bloodline gives a sorcerer an extra spell known at each spell level, but as a consequence, the he can't cast a very small number of opposing type spells. For instance, sorcerers with the fey bloodline can't animate or control undead. Those with the fire or firebreathing dragon bloodline can't cast cold spells. It's a decent trade, since sorcerers don't end up knowing all those spells anyway.

Now in addition to a free spell known, which wizards don't lack for anyway, the wizard domain gives you an extra spell per day, like school specialization. In fact, many of the domains pretty much duplicate the extra set of spells you would get from specializing. Yet you're stuck with a smaller list, so I wouldn't prohibit as large a group of spells as specialization did.

I'd also like for it to make sense fluff-wise. A cleric getting his spells from a good god has a reason for not casting evil spells, and a sorcerer with a specific bloodine does too. Wizards depend on their training instead, and I don't see how having focused on one thing could prevent you from ever learning another.

Maybe, just as the rules in UA say that the wizard gets a level bonus for those specific domain spells, he could take a level penalty on certain other spells. Thus he still functions with the versatility of a wizard, but some of his spells won't be quite as powerful because he's not as practiced with them.

Any suggestions?
Wil_Hyral
03-10-04, 04:28 AM My favorite suggestion is Count Arioch's, which suggests Domain Sorcerers that follow very similar rules.

But otherwise, you seem like you might be onto something with the cleric, accidentally or by intention. Unfortunately, elements don't have such a clear opposite as alignment. Fire and ice are obvious but acid and... force? There's some guessing involved, no doubt.
Lankin the Mad Mage
03-11-04, 03:26 PM I, too, feel that the wizards were overpowered enough as they were (free feats! Can buy new spells with MONEY!).

If anything, they need to give sorcerers more power. Enter the domain sorcerer, or alernatively the Bloodline Feats (which i adopted to my campaign immediately).

How to balance it for the wizard? Dunno. I won't allow it for the wizard, only the sorcerer. Perhaps you could, instead of giving him a free spell slot per level, say that he MUST use one of his spell slots to prepare the domain spell?
MysteryGilgamesh
03-11-04, 03:35 PM Originally posted by Wil_Hyral
Unfortunately, elements don't have such a clear opposite as alignment. Fire and ice are obvious but acid and... force?

Actually, looking at that one elemental PrC in Tome and Blood, they state that acid is considered "Earth", which is opossed to Electricity (which is considered Air). ^_^ Sonic is basically a 5th element, with no opposition. Force is....Well, not an element at all.
Lankin the Mad Mage
03-11-04, 03:41 PM And indeed you are right!

According to T&B each of the greek elements correspond to an elemental "energy". So the corresponding list is:

Fire: Fire
Earth: Acid
Air: Electricity
Water: Cold

So fire is opposed to the element water and the energy cold.
Earth is opposed by air, and acid (the energy of earth) is opposed by electricity (the energy of air).

In this system, as in so many others, sonic is the wild card with no affinity or opposition....which is why my players favor Energy Substitution [Sonic]. Only 3-4 critters are resistant to the damage.
TerrickTerran
03-11-04, 05:58 PM Which is why Energy Substitution got changed in 3.5.

I don't use Domain Wizards unless I replace regular wizards and specialists with them.
Lankin the Mad Mage
03-12-04, 05:10 AM It got changed? How? I must have missed that part.:confused:
Hengwrt Ellesmere
03-15-04, 12:24 AM I think what's most overpowering about these arcane domains as written is the bonus to caster level. If we just gave the wizard an extra slot per day that had to be filled with a domain spell, that would give some flavor and focus without overpowering him, or limiting him in the nonsensical way that forbidden schools did for the specialist.

One "benefit" that I think the domain should confer instead of the caster level bonus is spell mastery for domain spells. I put benefit in scare quotes because it actually allows the DM to challenge the wizard more. Currently, the wizard needs his spellbook to be of any use to the party at all, and it's kind of unfair for the DM to take it away from him. This all-or-nothing scenario results in wizards having far more versatility than their smaller spell capacity compared to the sorcerer should allow. By giving the wizard spell mastery in his domain, the DM can feel free to take away the spellbook just like any other piece of equipment. The wizard is still playable without his book, because he can still prepare his domain spells, but he's just a weak sorcerer until he gets it back.

This would lead to most wizards leaving their books at home and either preparing non-domain spells ahead of time or making scrolls of them. They would have to conserve these non-renewable resources over the course of the adventure, because once they're gone, they're stuck with just domain spells.
Lankin the Mad Mage
03-15-04, 08:48 AM +1 on caster level the most overpowering?

Surely good sir, you must say that in jest!

To a first level wizard, with very few spells per day, getting an extra spell slot is like a gift from above! It gives him the benefit of the sorcerer, with none of the drawbacks (more casting per day, but not spells known limit).

Also, a bonus spell known isn't to be sneezed at. The +1, however, I find to be of much less consequence. Not negligible, but not the major factor.
Hengwrt Ellesmere
03-15-04, 11:09 AM Yeah, you're right. Let me rephrase that:

The +1 to caster level is what pushes the power over the edge.

See almost everyone had the extra spell slot before due to specialization, because it was too valuable to pass up at low levels, even if you had to give up two schools. So while the domain wizard looks very overpowered compared to a generalist, what we should really compare it to is a specialist. Now the domain wizard as written is still more powerful than a specialist: he gives up the versatility of selecting the spell for his extra slot, but he doesn't have to give up any schools, AND he gets the caster level bonus.

Since he's already overpowered, then, I'd remove the caster level bonus first because it's in no way necessary for the concept. Now the comparison is: no choice for one spell slot vs. denied two schools. Hmm the domain wizard is still way nicer. But since we'll just have one version, it really doesn't matter how it compares to the version we're not using.

What matters is how it compares to the other classes. The question is: If wizards get a free domain, will there be no reason not to be one? I don't think so. First, the sorcerer will be getting an extra spell known from his bloodline, and he still has plenty more slots per day than the wizard (4 vs 2, or 5 vs 3 with stat bonus). Plus the sorcerer now gets free bloodline feats every five levels, some of which are pretty nice.

Then compare these two to the other classes. Will there be no reason not to be a wizard or sorcerer? I don't think so here either. Neither class can accomplish more in a given round than they could before (that's what the level bonus gave--an extra d6 damage per spell); they just become useful for longer on the one hand, or in more situations on the other. The whole party should appreciate that. You don't want casters to be able to do everything, but you don't want them to find themselves able to do nothing either. The extra spell per day or spell known really just makes them more of a team player.
azoun
09-20-04, 11:23 AM hey,

here's my first draft at balancing the domain wizard...

1. no familiar
2. no free scribe scroll feat at first level
3. the domain wiz doesn't get his domain spell for free : it must be learned as one of his two new spells when he levels up

balanced ?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hengwrt Ellesmere 03-10-04, 01:20 AM	I thought these were really neat until I realized they are totally overpowered. Versus a specialist, a domain wizard gains a lot and only gives up the choice of which extra spell to prepare at each level. Versus a generalist, he gains a lot and gives up nothing. Now if I use domain wizards, they'll be the only type of wizards. Still, the fact that they are more powerful than the existing types means that they'll also be much more powerful than other classes, and I don't want that. So what can I do to balance them? For one, I could take away the level bonus for domain spells. This brings the wizard domain in line with the sorcerer bloodlines from Dragon 311, which I'm giving to sorcerers as a fix for free. Now a bloodline gives a sorcerer an extra spell known at each spell level, but as a consequence, the he can't cast a very small number of opposing type spells. For instance, sorcerers with the fey bloodline can't animate or control undead. Those with the fire or firebreathing dragon bloodline can't cast cold spells. It's a decent trade, since sorcerers don't end up knowing all those spells anyway. Now in addition to a free spell known, which wizards don't lack for anyway, the wizard domain gives you an extra spell per day, like school specialization. In fact, many of the domains pretty much duplicate the extra set of spells you would get from specializing. Yet you're stuck with a smaller list, so I wouldn't prohibit as large a group of spells as specialization did. I'd also like for it to make sense fluff-wise. A cleric getting his spells from a good god has a reason for not casting evil spells, and a sorcerer with a specific bloodine does too. Wizards depend on their training instead, and I don't see how having focused on one thing could prevent you from ever learning another. Maybe, just as the rules in UA say that the wizard gets a level bonus for those specific domain spells, he could take a level penalty on certain other spells. Thus he still functions with the versatility of a wizard, but some of his spells won't be quite as powerful because he's not as practiced with them. Any suggestions?
Wil_Hyral 03-10-04, 04:28 AM	My favorite suggestion is Count Arioch's, which suggests Domain Sorcerers that follow very similar rules. But otherwise, you seem like you might be onto something with the cleric, accidentally or by intention. Unfortunately, elements don't have such a clear opposite as alignment. Fire and ice are obvious but acid and... force? There's some guessing involved, no doubt.
Lankin the Mad Mage 03-11-04, 03:26 PM	I, too, feel that the wizards were overpowered enough as they were (free feats! Can buy new spells with MONEY!). If anything, they need to give sorcerers more power. Enter the domain sorcerer, or alernatively the Bloodline Feats (which i adopted to my campaign immediately). How to balance it for the wizard? Dunno. I won't allow it for the wizard, only the sorcerer. Perhaps you could, instead of giving him a free spell slot per level, say that he MUST use one of his spell slots to prepare the domain spell?
MysteryGilgamesh 03-11-04, 03:35 PM	Originally posted by Wil_Hyral Unfortunately, elements don't have such a clear opposite as alignment. Fire and ice are obvious but acid and... force? Actually, looking at that one elemental PrC in Tome and Blood, they state that acid is considered "Earth", which is opossed to Electricity (which is considered Air). ^_^ Sonic is basically a 5th element, with no opposition. Force is....Well, not an element at all.
Lankin the Mad Mage 03-11-04, 03:41 PM	And indeed you are right! According to T&B each of the greek elements correspond to an elemental "energy". So the corresponding list is: Fire: Fire Earth: Acid Air: Electricity Water: Cold So fire is opposed to the element water and the energy cold. Earth is opposed by air, and acid (the energy of earth) is opposed by electricity (the energy of air). In this system, as in so many others, sonic is the wild card with no affinity or opposition....which is why my players favor Energy Substitution [Sonic]. Only 3-4 critters are resistant to the damage.
TerrickTerran 03-11-04, 05:58 PM	Which is why Energy Substitution got changed in 3.5. I don't use Domain Wizards unless I replace regular wizards and specialists with them.
Lankin the Mad Mage 03-12-04, 05:10 AM	It got changed? How? I must have missed that part.:confused:
Hengwrt Ellesmere 03-15-04, 12:24 AM	I think what's most overpowering about these arcane domains as written is the bonus to caster level. If we just gave the wizard an extra slot per day that had to be filled with a domain spell, that would give some flavor and focus without overpowering him, or limiting him in the nonsensical way that forbidden schools did for the specialist. One "benefit" that I think the domain should confer instead of the caster level bonus is spell mastery for domain spells. I put benefit in scare quotes because it actually allows the DM to challenge the wizard more. Currently, the wizard needs his spellbook to be of any use to the party at all, and it's kind of unfair for the DM to take it away from him. This all-or-nothing scenario results in wizards having far more versatility than their smaller spell capacity compared to the sorcerer should allow. By giving the wizard spell mastery in his domain, the DM can feel free to take away the spellbook just like any other piece of equipment. The wizard is still playable without his book, because he can still prepare his domain spells, but he's just a weak sorcerer until he gets it back. This would lead to most wizards leaving their books at home and either preparing non-domain spells ahead of time or making scrolls of them. They would have to conserve these non-renewable resources over the course of the adventure, because once they're gone, they're stuck with just domain spells.
Lankin the Mad Mage 03-15-04, 08:48 AM	+1 on caster level the most overpowering? Surely good sir, you must say that in jest! To a first level wizard, with very few spells per day, getting an extra spell slot is like a gift from above! It gives him the benefit of the sorcerer, with none of the drawbacks (more casting per day, but not spells known limit). Also, a bonus spell known isn't to be sneezed at. The +1, however, I find to be of much less consequence. Not negligible, but not the major factor.
Hengwrt Ellesmere 03-15-04, 11:09 AM	Yeah, you're right. Let me rephrase that: The +1 to caster level is what pushes the power over the edge. See almost everyone had the extra spell slot before due to specialization, because it was too valuable to pass up at low levels, even if you had to give up two schools. So while the domain wizard looks very overpowered compared to a generalist, what we should really compare it to is a specialist. Now the domain wizard as written is still more powerful than a specialist: he gives up the versatility of selecting the spell for his extra slot, but he doesn't have to give up any schools, AND he gets the caster level bonus. Since he's already overpowered, then, I'd remove the caster level bonus first because it's in no way necessary for the concept. Now the comparison is: no choice for one spell slot vs. denied two schools. Hmm the domain wizard is still way nicer. But since we'll just have one version, it really doesn't matter how it compares to the version we're not using. What matters is how it compares to the other classes. The question is: If wizards get a free domain, will there be no reason not to be one? I don't think so. First, the sorcerer will be getting an extra spell known from his bloodline, and he still has plenty more slots per day than the wizard (4 vs 2, or 5 vs 3 with stat bonus). Plus the sorcerer now gets free bloodline feats every five levels, some of which are pretty nice. Then compare these two to the other classes. Will there be no reason not to be a wizard or sorcerer? I don't think so here either. Neither class can accomplish more in a given round than they could before (that's what the level bonus gave--an extra d6 damage per spell); they just become useful for longer on the one hand, or in more situations on the other. The whole party should appreciate that. You don't want casters to be able to do everything, but you don't want them to find themselves able to do nothing either. The extra spell per day or spell known really just makes them more of a team player.
azoun 09-20-04, 11:23 AM	hey, here's my first draft at balancing the domain wizard... 1. no familiar 2. no free scribe scroll feat at first level 3. the domain wiz doesn't get his domain spell for free : it must be learned as one of his two new spells when he levels up balanced ?