Level Adjustment reduction variant rules? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Level Adjustment reduction variant rules? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gadren
05-27-07, 05:48 PM Hey, has anyone ever used the level adjustment reduction rules before? I think its from Unearthed Arcana:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm

If so, how did it work out for you? Were there any issues?
bobothechimp
05-27-07, 06:00 PM In my opinion, it is a horrible system that completely removes any penalty created by level adjustment.
Zyrusticae
05-27-07, 06:14 PM In my opinion, Level Adjustment itself is a horrible system that needs to be replaced A.S.A.P. (preferably with racial classes balanced out against actual classes, with spellcaster/manifester progressions for each). There are better ways to create unique flavor for races without totally breaking the game, y'know. (I refer to Lotus Crane's Rebalanced Races (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=596634) in this instance for balanced racial classes.)
Keterys
05-27-07, 07:00 PM Both are correct. The system is horrible, as is the variant. I would say that using the variant is much worse.
Perseus_Stoned
05-27-07, 07:03 PM What "Keterys" said, only I find the variant to be the better of the two choices.

Typically its only been used with +1 LA or +2 LA characters in my campaign though and none of them were "pushing the limit" characters. I find it doesn't give the character power until they're lagging behind the group and is mostly well balanced.

To bobothechimp: Not in my opinion, but as presented as 100% fact, I know for a fact it is a system that completely removes any penalty created by level adjustment. Thats sort of the point.
Gadren
05-27-07, 07:08 PM In my opinion, it is a horrible system that completely removes any penalty created by level adjustment.

You don't think that losing 16000 xp is a penalty for losing +2 LA?
If you look at it from the magic item creation perspective that 1 xp = about 12.5 gold, then compare the bonuses of say, drow to a 200,000 gp magic item, and I still think you are paying a high price there.

Plus the system is only really useful for races with +3 LA or less, which is good since the some of the ones with higher than that tend to be a little out of control, even with the LAs.
Gadren
05-27-07, 07:13 PM What "Keterys" said, only I find the variant to be the better of the two choices.

Typically its only been used with +1 LA or +2 LA characters in my campaign though and none of them were "pushing the limit" characters. I find it doesn't give the character power until they're lagging behind the group and is mostly well balanced.

To bobothechimp: Not in my opinion, but as presented as 100% fact, I know for a fact it is a system that completely removes any penalty created by level adjustment. Thats sort of the point.

Ah good, so you have used it. Input from people who have used a rule is much more useful than gut feelings. :D
What races were the PCs who used it in your game?

Thankyou for letting me know.
Keterys
05-27-07, 08:49 PM Sigh. It's a really simple answer - no, 16000XP isn't much of a cost at all. It's even easier to answer why - because it comes back. You're behind a level for some sessions, then you're not. Poof, all done (unless you're not using the 3.5 XP rules in which you get 33% to 50% more xp while lower level). This isn't 1st edition dnd, we don't need to reintroduce the fighter/mage/thief level disparities again.

If a race is a bad LA race to begin with (as, honestly, most are), then it might not be too egregious to let it be bought off... same as it's okay to give someone two bonus feats, cause they bring pizza to games... but it's almost guaranteed to still mean they have stuff others don't, for no 'real' cost, at some point in the game... potentially -before the game even starts-.
Decinious
05-27-07, 09:51 PM I have used, and abused the LA buy off. Liches are all well and good at +5 LA but way underpowered compared to 5 +1 level adjustments that I have paid off as we went, at most I was 1 level behind the rest of the party. We were calling the Bone Creature Template +1 LA... my Casters would start there and go Shadow Walker, then Evolved Undead as many times as I could pull off. Warrior types just got sick with Feral if allowed, Blooded one, Mineralized warrior, and draconic creature.
We've found alot less stupidity by ignoreing LA for exp totals and just applying LA for Starting Character Level and gained exp. I.E. DM allows us level 5 starting chars you make up a level 1 Half fiend Wizard, that starts with 0 Exp, gains exp as if he is level 5. Much easier to gain 1000 exp then 5000 when a single L5 wizard can almost always put your lights out with a magic missle... You still stay a few levels behind the rest of the party so noone feels over powered. It also solves most of the Polymorph abuse if the wizard has the LA of his assumed form added onto his level for his exp gained for the encounter. No roleplay issues with level 1 half fiend chars starting out with level 5 starting gold, since we all know half fiends are that loved by their parents that the get gold to start with without having gone adventuring. Now, I'm not saying it is a perfect system, but it works well for us.
DM Denubis
05-27-07, 10:36 PM I have used, and abused the LA buy off. Liches are all well and good at +5 LA but way underpowered compared to 5 +1 level adjustments that I have paid off as we went, at most I was 1 level behind the rest of the party.

You know that you can't start buying off the LA of a +5 race or template until level fifteen, right?

This is the problem most people have. People not using the system properly.

I've used it, and I absolutely swear by it.

Say someone wants to play a Drow caster of some sort. The LA on a Drow is +2. Now, sure, he's getting some decent stuff out of it. Extra INT and CHA are never bad. The SR is nice as well. These traits can actually make a difference at low levels.

And then you realize that he's giving up an entire two levels of his class. Two levels of a spellcasting class is an entire level of spells that he gets access to slower than the next character, and for what? Some traits that, in the long run, are going to be meaningless? Tell me why that player wouldn't regret his decision.

But before someone calls me a drow fanboy or calls foul on me using a caster to demonstrate, let's look at the hobgoblin.

Hobgoblin Characters

Hobgoblin characters possess the following racial traits.

* +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution.
* A hobgoblin’s base land speed is 30 feet.
* Darkvision out to 60 feet.
* +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.
* Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Infernal, Giant, Orc.
* Favored Class: Fighter.
* Level adjustment +1.

Yeah, that +2 Dex and Con are totally going to be worth a human's bonus feat and an entire class level later on in the game. I could totally see a player being happy about this decision.

The problem with LA races is that they tend to be a lot weaker than the LA +0 races because D&D is a class based game. With less class levels, you tend to be weaker. Look at almost every build in the CharOp forums. They use LA +0 races constantly.

The bonus you get from a slightly more powerful race just doesn't compare to another class level at high levels.

If you like your players to have options available, and don't want to punish them for going a bit outside the box, use the buyoff rules.
Decinious
05-27-07, 11:13 PM The problem with LA races is that they tend to be a lot weaker than the LA +0 races because D&D is a class based game.

I quite agree with that statment.

I believe you misread my lich comment. I was just commenting that +5 LA races suck compared to +1 LA's that you can buy off every 3 levels. True after your first +1 Inherited Template you have to go fishing for Aquired templates but there is more then enough out there. Let's see do I want to play a level 11 caster level lich or do I want to play a level 15 caster level character that has bought off 5 +1 LA templates, IMHO that is a no brainer.
DM Denubis
05-27-07, 11:23 PM I believe you misread my lich comment.

So I did. I apologize. I'm slightly dyslexic, and so when ideas aren't paragraphed or organized very well, I sometimes get the wrong idea.
Vaelan
05-27-07, 11:43 PM I have used it quite well, with two additional rules.

1. Races with scaling abilities can't buy off LA. The system was designed to make up for the fact that LAs are based on minimum level rather than maximum level and racial abilities become significantly less useful at higher levels. Nobody cares if you can fly at ECL 20 and a Minotaur is a joke, since the Wizard can turn you into something stronger with a simple fourth-level spell. Features such as Spell Resistance, however, scale with your level and are thus useful and worth LA at high levels.

2. You don't give characters that bought off LA more XP for being lower level. Maintain the penalty.
Gadren
05-27-07, 11:56 PM Sigh. It's a really simple answer - no, 16000XP isn't much of a cost at all. It's even easier to answer why - because it comes back. You're behind a level for some sessions, then you're not. Poof, all done (unless you're not using the 3.5 XP rules in which you get 33% to 50% more xp while lower level). This isn't 1st edition dnd, we don't need to reintroduce the fighter/mage/thief level disparities again.

If a race is a bad LA race to begin with (as, honestly, most are), then it might not be too egregious to let it be bought off... same as it's okay to give someone two bonus feats, cause they bring pizza to games... but it's almost guaranteed to still mean they have stuff others don't, for no 'real' cost, at some point in the game... potentially -before the game even starts-.

Hmmm, so how do you feel about Kensai, item creation feats, and spells with xp costs?
InsertNameHere
05-27-07, 11:57 PM I've been doing Level Adjustment in my own, extremely simple variation. Characters lose 7 of their point buy points (in a 44-point campaign) for each point of LA.
Krusk
05-28-07, 01:36 AM We removed LA entirly, giving much toned down versions of all races with LA's as options. Then we created racial classes similar to paragon classes, one level of the class per LA. you gain no skill points or hp for this level. These levels must be taken the first one by level 5, the second by level 10, 3rd by level 15, and 4th by level 20. We dont allow things with more than LA 4. divided over those levels we grant most of the abilities given by the race.

EX Pixie
Base racial features
Ability Score Adjustments- -4 str, +4dex, +2 int, +2 cha
Size- Small
Base land speed- 20 feet
low light vision
Skills- +2 listen, search, spot
bonus feat- Dodge
Automatic Languages- Common, sylvan
Bonus Languages- Elven, Gnome, Halfling
Favored Class- Sorcerer

progression for the pixie race. For pixie without ottos dance.

1st +2 dex, int, wis, cha, fly speed, +1 natural armor
2nd +2 dex, wis, int, cha, Spell like abilities
3rd +2 dex, int, wis, cha, SR
4th +2 dex, int, wis, cha, Greater Invis, DR

we did this for all races we allow.

it really lets people play any race they want, without worrying about the LA right at the start. cause without this level 1 pixie sorcerer is ECL 5, and dies in first fight every time. he has a nice 4 base HP at 5th level. Now he can spread out the penalty so the HP diffrence isnt as horrible. But if they want pixies awsome poweres sooner they better be willing to sacrifice class levels. We also mandate that someone with a race that has a racial class take the racial class, because some of them are a little overpowered at first level, but that is balanced out by the loss of class levels.
Millenia
05-28-07, 03:35 AM 2. You don't give characters that bought off LA more XP for being lower level. Maintain the penalty.
But the person doesn't get more exp anyways. It's just that the exp gained from, say, a level 13 encounter is 1/13th (or so) the amount needed to get to level 14. That say amount is proportionally larger to a level 12 character, so they'll catch up slightly quicker. :B
Arcade
05-28-07, 09:13 AM As a DM, I've used the LA buyoff and I like it. The +1 to +3 range is my preferred range. Any more than that and it gets very little use since you have to be such high level. In general LA races of +3 or higher are generally hard to use anyway.

Do be careful of acquired templates, as has been brought up. Adding too many templates in general is a bad idea. Stick to one LA source until you get a good handle on it. Adding racial LA and a template or two templates together is never as easy as adding the LA- you need to analyze the whole effect and determine an LA based on that.
Keterys
05-28-07, 10:57 AM A good variant rule, if you want people to have LA... is to just say 'Everyone can have up to +2 LA, no penalty'. Poof, same effect, but it's fair to everyone instead of just the people who will game the system.
Vaelan
05-30-07, 07:25 AM But the person doesn't get more exp anyways. It's just that the exp gained from, say, a level 13 encounter is 1/13th (or so) the amount needed to get to level 14. That say amount is proportionally larger to a level 12 character, so they'll catch up slightly quicker. :B
No, they actually get more XP. Read the Sidebar on page 42 of the DMG.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gadren 05-27-07, 05:48 PM	Hey, has anyone ever used the level adjustment reduction rules before? I think its from Unearthed Arcana: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm If so, how did it work out for you? Were there any issues?
bobothechimp 05-27-07, 06:00 PM	In my opinion, it is a horrible system that completely removes any penalty created by level adjustment.
Zyrusticae 05-27-07, 06:14 PM	In my opinion, Level Adjustment itself is a horrible system that needs to be replaced A.S.A.P. (preferably with racial classes balanced out against actual classes, with spellcaster/manifester progressions for each). There are better ways to create unique flavor for races without totally breaking the game, y'know. (I refer to Lotus Crane's Rebalanced Races (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=596634) in this instance for balanced racial classes.)
Keterys 05-27-07, 07:00 PM	Both are correct. The system is horrible, as is the variant. I would say that using the variant is much worse.
Perseus_Stoned 05-27-07, 07:03 PM	What "Keterys" said, only I find the variant to be the better of the two choices. Typically its only been used with +1 LA or +2 LA characters in my campaign though and none of them were "pushing the limit" characters. I find it doesn't give the character power until they're lagging behind the group and is mostly well balanced. To bobothechimp: Not in my opinion, but as presented as 100% fact, I know for a fact it is a system that completely removes any penalty created by level adjustment. Thats sort of the point.
Gadren 05-27-07, 07:08 PM	In my opinion, it is a horrible system that completely removes any penalty created by level adjustment. You don't think that losing 16000 xp is a penalty for losing +2 LA? If you look at it from the magic item creation perspective that 1 xp = about 12.5 gold, then compare the bonuses of say, drow to a 200,000 gp magic item, and I still think you are paying a high price there. Plus the system is only really useful for races with +3 LA or less, which is good since the some of the ones with higher than that tend to be a little out of control, even with the LAs.
Gadren 05-27-07, 07:13 PM	What "Keterys" said, only I find the variant to be the better of the two choices. Typically its only been used with +1 LA or +2 LA characters in my campaign though and none of them were "pushing the limit" characters. I find it doesn't give the character power until they're lagging behind the group and is mostly well balanced. To bobothechimp: Not in my opinion, but as presented as 100% fact, I know for a fact it is a system that completely removes any penalty created by level adjustment. Thats sort of the point. Ah good, so you have used it. Input from people who have used a rule is much more useful than gut feelings. :D What races were the PCs who used it in your game? Thankyou for letting me know.
Keterys 05-27-07, 08:49 PM	Sigh. It's a really simple answer - no, 16000XP isn't much of a cost at all. It's even easier to answer why - because it comes back. You're behind a level for some sessions, then you're not. Poof, all done (unless you're not using the 3.5 XP rules in which you get 33% to 50% more xp while lower level). This isn't 1st edition dnd, we don't need to reintroduce the fighter/mage/thief level disparities again. If a race is a bad LA race to begin with (as, honestly, most are), then it might not be too egregious to let it be bought off... same as it's okay to give someone two bonus feats, cause they bring pizza to games... but it's almost guaranteed to still mean they have stuff others don't, for no 'real' cost, at some point in the game... potentially -before the game even starts-.
Decinious 05-27-07, 09:51 PM	I have used, and abused the LA buy off. Liches are all well and good at +5 LA but way underpowered compared to 5 +1 level adjustments that I have paid off as we went, at most I was 1 level behind the rest of the party. We were calling the Bone Creature Template +1 LA... my Casters would start there and go Shadow Walker, then Evolved Undead as many times as I could pull off. Warrior types just got sick with Feral if allowed, Blooded one, Mineralized warrior, and draconic creature. We've found alot less stupidity by ignoreing LA for exp totals and just applying LA for Starting Character Level and gained exp. I.E. DM allows us level 5 starting chars you make up a level 1 Half fiend Wizard, that starts with 0 Exp, gains exp as if he is level 5. Much easier to gain 1000 exp then 5000 when a single L5 wizard can almost always put your lights out with a magic missle... You still stay a few levels behind the rest of the party so noone feels over powered. It also solves most of the Polymorph abuse if the wizard has the LA of his assumed form added onto his level for his exp gained for the encounter. No roleplay issues with level 1 half fiend chars starting out with level 5 starting gold, since we all know half fiends are that loved by their parents that the get gold to start with without having gone adventuring. Now, I'm not saying it is a perfect system, but it works well for us.
DM Denubis 05-27-07, 10:36 PM	I have used, and abused the LA buy off. Liches are all well and good at +5 LA but way underpowered compared to 5 +1 level adjustments that I have paid off as we went, at most I was 1 level behind the rest of the party. You know that you can't start buying off the LA of a +5 race or template until level fifteen, right? This is the problem most people have. People not using the system properly. I've used it, and I absolutely swear by it. Say someone wants to play a Drow caster of some sort. The LA on a Drow is +2. Now, sure, he's getting some decent stuff out of it. Extra INT and CHA are never bad. The SR is nice as well. These traits can actually make a difference at low levels. And then you realize that he's giving up an entire two levels of his class. Two levels of a spellcasting class is an entire level of spells that he gets access to slower than the next character, and for what? Some traits that, in the long run, are going to be meaningless? Tell me why that player wouldn't regret his decision. But before someone calls me a drow fanboy or calls foul on me using a caster to demonstrate, let's look at the hobgoblin. Hobgoblin Characters Hobgoblin characters possess the following racial traits. * +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution. * A hobgoblin’s base land speed is 30 feet. * Darkvision out to 60 feet. * +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks. * Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Infernal, Giant, Orc. * Favored Class: Fighter. * Level adjustment +1. Yeah, that +2 Dex and Con are totally going to be worth a human's bonus feat and an entire class level later on in the game. I could totally see a player being happy about this decision. The problem with LA races is that they tend to be a lot weaker than the LA +0 races because D&D is a class based game. With less class levels, you tend to be weaker. Look at almost every build in the CharOp forums. They use LA +0 races constantly. The bonus you get from a slightly more powerful race just doesn't compare to another class level at high levels. If you like your players to have options available, and don't want to punish them for going a bit outside the box, use the buyoff rules.
Decinious 05-27-07, 11:13 PM	The problem with LA races is that they tend to be a lot weaker than the LA +0 races because D&D is a class based game. I quite agree with that statment. I believe you misread my lich comment. I was just commenting that +5 LA races suck compared to +1 LA's that you can buy off every 3 levels. True after your first +1 Inherited Template you have to go fishing for Aquired templates but there is more then enough out there. Let's see do I want to play a level 11 caster level lich or do I want to play a level 15 caster level character that has bought off 5 +1 LA templates, IMHO that is a no brainer.
DM Denubis 05-27-07, 11:23 PM	I believe you misread my lich comment. So I did. I apologize. I'm slightly dyslexic, and so when ideas aren't paragraphed or organized very well, I sometimes get the wrong idea.
Vaelan 05-27-07, 11:43 PM	I have used it quite well, with two additional rules. 1. Races with scaling abilities can't buy off LA. The system was designed to make up for the fact that LAs are based on minimum level rather than maximum level and racial abilities become significantly less useful at higher levels. Nobody cares if you can fly at ECL 20 and a Minotaur is a joke, since the Wizard can turn you into something stronger with a simple fourth-level spell. Features such as Spell Resistance, however, scale with your level and are thus useful and worth LA at high levels. 2. You don't give characters that bought off LA more XP for being lower level. Maintain the penalty.
Gadren 05-27-07, 11:56 PM	Sigh. It's a really simple answer - no, 16000XP isn't much of a cost at all. It's even easier to answer why - because it comes back. You're behind a level for some sessions, then you're not. Poof, all done (unless you're not using the 3.5 XP rules in which you get 33% to 50% more xp while lower level). This isn't 1st edition dnd, we don't need to reintroduce the fighter/mage/thief level disparities again. If a race is a bad LA race to begin with (as, honestly, most are), then it might not be too egregious to let it be bought off... same as it's okay to give someone two bonus feats, cause they bring pizza to games... but it's almost guaranteed to still mean they have stuff others don't, for no 'real' cost, at some point in the game... potentially -before the game even starts-. Hmmm, so how do you feel about Kensai, item creation feats, and spells with xp costs?
InsertNameHere 05-27-07, 11:57 PM	I've been doing Level Adjustment in my own, extremely simple variation. Characters lose 7 of their point buy points (in a 44-point campaign) for each point of LA.
Krusk 05-28-07, 01:36 AM	We removed LA entirly, giving much toned down versions of all races with LA's as options. Then we created racial classes similar to paragon classes, one level of the class per LA. you gain no skill points or hp for this level. These levels must be taken the first one by level 5, the second by level 10, 3rd by level 15, and 4th by level 20. We dont allow things with more than LA 4. divided over those levels we grant most of the abilities given by the race. EX Pixie Base racial features Ability Score Adjustments- -4 str, +4dex, +2 int, +2 cha Size- Small Base land speed- 20 feet low light vision Skills- +2 listen, search, spot bonus feat- Dodge Automatic Languages- Common, sylvan Bonus Languages- Elven, Gnome, Halfling Favored Class- Sorcerer progression for the pixie race. For pixie without ottos dance. 1st +2 dex, int, wis, cha, fly speed, +1 natural armor 2nd +2 dex, wis, int, cha, Spell like abilities 3rd +2 dex, int, wis, cha, SR 4th +2 dex, int, wis, cha, Greater Invis, DR we did this for all races we allow. it really lets people play any race they want, without worrying about the LA right at the start. cause without this level 1 pixie sorcerer is ECL 5, and dies in first fight every time. he has a nice 4 base HP at 5th level. Now he can spread out the penalty so the HP diffrence isnt as horrible. But if they want pixies awsome poweres sooner they better be willing to sacrifice class levels. We also mandate that someone with a race that has a racial class take the racial class, because some of them are a little overpowered at first level, but that is balanced out by the loss of class levels.
Millenia 05-28-07, 03:35 AM	2. You don't give characters that bought off LA more XP for being lower level. Maintain the penalty. But the person doesn't get more exp anyways. It's just that the exp gained from, say, a level 13 encounter is 1/13th (or so) the amount needed to get to level 14. That say amount is proportionally larger to a level 12 character, so they'll catch up slightly quicker. :B
Arcade 05-28-07, 09:13 AM	As a DM, I've used the LA buyoff and I like it. The +1 to +3 range is my preferred range. Any more than that and it gets very little use since you have to be such high level. In general LA races of +3 or higher are generally hard to use anyway. Do be careful of acquired templates, as has been brought up. Adding too many templates in general is a bad idea. Stick to one LA source until you get a good handle on it. Adding racial LA and a template or two templates together is never as easy as adding the LA- you need to analyze the whole effect and determine an LA based on that.
Keterys 05-28-07, 10:57 AM	A good variant rule, if you want people to have LA... is to just say 'Everyone can have up to +2 LA, no penalty'. Poof, same effect, but it's fair to everyone instead of just the people who will game the system.
Vaelan 05-30-07, 07:25 AM	But the person doesn't get more exp anyways. It's just that the exp gained from, say, a level 13 encounter is 1/13th (or so) the amount needed to get to level 14. That say amount is proportionally larger to a level 12 character, so they'll catch up slightly quicker. :B No, they actually get more XP. Read the Sidebar on page 42 of the DMG.