Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shebnar 10-10-04, 11:18 AM	Hello everyone, I was wondering if the Unearthed Arcana LA buyoff can be combined with the Savage Species monster class progression... One of the players I'm currently DMing wants to roleplay a Feral Minotaur: Minotaurs have ECL 8 (6 HD + 2 LA). He wants to go through the eight level monster class progression buying off the additional +1 LA for the Feral Template using the Unearthed Arcana variant (-3000 XP at the 3rd level of the monster class). Now, I didn't find any rules that explicitly forbids the combination of different LA buyoff, but nonetheless it sounds a bit odd... What do you think about it? :confused: Thanks for your time! :)
gbnogkfs 10-10-04, 12:08 PM	they start reducing LA only after completing the Monster progression; check the paragraph uf UA: it's all in there. Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1. (...) etc
White_Fox 10-10-04, 04:45 PM	Provided he meets the prerequisites for the LA buy-off, (as kindly pointed out above) I wouldn't see a problem with it. The Savage Species progression keeps limits the power of a given monster to a standard class progression (in effect making the monster species a 'class') while the LA buy-off stalls the growth of the character temporarily to off-set the benifets inherint in a more powerful starting position. The two should be fully compatible, providing the rules for each are strictly followed.
Part-Human2 10-10-04, 11:42 PM	I don't like the idea that a new 6 HD + 3 LA Feral Minotaur can just say he progressed as a Monster Class and, having attained 9 "class levels" he may now buy off 1 LA (he doesn't even have 9 HD). Whereas typically a new 6 HD + 3 LA Feral Minotaur is 6 HD + 3 LA and must obtain 9 Class Levels before he can buy off 1 LA. I see no explicit mention in Savage Species that the Monster Class levels are the same as (Character) Class Levels (as defined in the PHB). Anyway, the only rule you're looking for is not written - "mixing 3.0 rules with 3.5 rules requires some judgement calls on the part of the DM".
darczero 10-11-04, 08:20 AM	I don't like the idea that a new 6 HD + 3 LA Feral Minotaur can just say he progressed as a Monster Class and, having attained 9 "class levels" he may now buy off 1 LA (he doesn't even have 9 HD). Whereas typically a new 6 HD + 3 LA Feral Minotaur is 6 HD + 3 LA and must obtain 9 Class Levels before he can buy off 1 LA. I see no explicit mention in Savage Species that the Monster Class levels are the same as (Character) Class Levels (as defined in the PHB). Anyway, the only rule you're looking for is not written - "mixing 3.0 rules with 3.5 rules requires some judgement calls on the part of the DM". Exactly. Savage species is (as far as I know) a 3.0 book, with minor changes made in anticipation of the revised edition (most of which they changed again before including them in the revised edition). UA is 3.5; furthermore, virtually everything in it is subject to judgement calls from the DM.
gbnogkfs 10-11-04, 08:33 AM	I don't like the idea that a new 6 HD + 3 LA Feral Minotaur can just say he progressed as a Monster Class and, having attained 9 "class levels" he may now buy off 1 LA (he doesn't even have 9 HD). Whereas typically a new 6 HD + 3 LA Feral Minotaur is 6 HD + 3 LA and must obtain 9 Class Levels before he can buy off 1 LA. I see no explicit mention in Savage Species that the Monster Class levels are the same as (Character) Class Levels (as defined in the PHB). Anyway, the only rule you're looking for is not written - "mixing 3.0 rules with 3.5 rules requires some judgement calls on the part of the DM". there is really no incompatibility at all: a creature with 6 racial HD and LA of 3 must reach ECL 18 to buy the first +1 LA off. IT IS WRITTEN!!!! :mymy:
starfire311 10-11-04, 11:39 AM	there is really no incompatibility at all: a creature with 6 racial HD and LA of 3 must reach ECL 18 to buy the first +1 LA off. IT IS WRITTEN!!!! :mymy: Exactly, I really don't see any discrepency in the rules here. The rules say that once you get 3 times the LA in class levels not counting LA or monster HD, then you can buy of one +1 of the LA So this character can buy of the 1st +1 at 18th level, the 2nd +1 at 24th level, and the last +1 at 27th level, if I haven't made any math errors.
Shebnar 10-11-04, 03:13 PM	they start reducing LA only after completing the Monster progression; check the paragraph uf UA: it's all in there. Thank you for making me notice it! :) Anyway I'm actually doubting at what level the LA buyoff has to be applied. The rules say that once you get 3 times the LA in class levels not counting LA or monster HD, then you can buy of one +1 of the LA So this character can buy of the 1st +1 at 18th level, the 2nd +1 at 24th level, and the last +1 at 27th level, if I haven't made any math errors. OK, I think a Minotaur who goes through the monster class progression has a Level Advancement of +0, since the monster class levels should substitute the whole Level Advancement. From my point of view this minotaur should advance in his monster class with the +1 LA (which will make him to require 3000 XP to gain the 2nd level in his monster class etc.) from the Feral Template, and it could be bought off at 11th level (8 monster class levels + 3 class levels) according to the Unearthed Arcana variant rules. ...Any thoughts? Edit: I corrected the Minotaur's ECL: it is 8, not 9 as I had previously written (sorry for the stupid mistake). I mean that after the 8 level monster class progression (which the Feral Minotaur has to go through with an effective +1 LA) he can buy off the Feral template advancement after three class levels taken after having completed his monster class levels: in this case we have 8 ECL + 3 class levels = at 11th level he will buy off the +1 LA from the template.
starfire311 10-11-04, 04:12 PM	Thank you for making me notice it! :) OK, I think a Minotaur who goes through the monster class progression has a Level Advancement of +0, since the monster class levels should substitute the whole Level Advancement. From my point of view this minotaur should advance in his monster class with the +1 LA (which will make him to require 3000 XP to gain the 2nd level in his monster class etc.) from the Feral Template, and it could be bought off at 12th level (9 monster class levels + 3 class levels) according to the Unearthed Arcana variant rules. ...Any thoughts? IMO a minotaur that goes through his racial class progression still has his monster HD of 6 and +2 LA from Minotaur add in the +1 Feral and this is an ECL of 9 the character still has 0 class levels with 6 monster HD and +3 LA. Using the UA Buyoff he will eventually be able to buyoff all but the 6HD.
gbnogkfs 10-11-04, 09:25 PM	IMO a minotaur that goes through his racial class progression still has his monster HD of 6 and +2 LA from Minotaur add in the +1 Feral and this is an ECL of 9 the character still has 0 class levels with 6 monster HD and +3 LA. Using the UA Buyoff he will eventually be able to buyoff all but the 6HD. exactly :cool: the monster progressions have "real" levels with HD increase (and all that it's linked to that, such as skill points, feats, ability increases...), and "fictious" levels where no HD is got, only +1 LA: a full grown minotaur has 6 real levels, and +2 LA only counting for ECL (+ another 1 for the feral template, worth another "level" of XPs, but no actual HDs, on top of the normal minotaur); remember that level = HDs except with regarding to experience, where ECL must be used. a moster that has completed all their racial progresion is the same as the Monster Manual entry with the same name.
Shebnar 10-11-04, 09:51 PM	exactly :cool: the monster progressions have "real" levels with HD increase (and all that it's linked to that, such as skill points, feats, ability increases...), and "fictious" levels where no HD is got, only +1 LA: a full grown minotaur has 6 real levels, and +2 LA only counting for ECL (+ another 1 for the feral template, worth another "level" of XPs, but no actual HDs, on top of the normal minotaur); remember that level = HDs except with regarding to experience, where ECL must be used. a moster that has completed all their racial progresion is the same as the Monster Manual entry with the same name. OK! So a Minotaur who undergoes his whole racial class progression (8 ECL) with an additional LA (+1 in this case) can buy it off after his racial eight-level class aquiring another racial "fictious" level (Savage Species buyoff). But since my player has asked me to adopt the Unearthed Arcana buyoff variant, I think that he can decrease his LA to +0 after three class levels taken after having completed his racial progression (8 ECL + 3 class levels = level 11). Obviously he will gp through his entire monster class progression with a +1 LA XP penalty. (Note that in my previous post I didn't properly recall the Minotaur's ECL, which is 8 and not 9).
Loren Pechtel 10-12-04, 12:26 AM	OK! So a Minotaur who undergoes his whole racial class progression (8 ECL) with an additional LA (+1 in this case) can buy it off after his racial eight-level class aquiring another racial "fictious" level (Savage Species buyoff). But since my player has asked me to adopt the Unearthed Arcana buyoff variant, I think that he can decrease his LA to +0 after three class levels taken after having completed his racial progression (8 ECL + 3 class levels = level 11). Obviously he will gp through his entire monster class progression with a +1 LA XP penalty. (Note that in my previous post I didn't properly recall the Minotaur's ECL, which is 8 and not 9). The buyoff can't be used that fast.
Greyman 10-12-04, 04:20 AM	Racial Hit Die do not count towards Level Adjustment buy off. The Hit Die from a Monster Class are racial Hit Die. Also, you cannot buy off the Level Adjustment from the Feral Template seperately. Buy off works on total level adjustment and the diceless levels from a Monster Class are Level Adjustments. The Feral Minotaur's Level Adjustment is +3, two come from being a Minotaur, and 1 comes from being Feral. It has 6 Character Levels which gives it an Effective Character Level of 9. It does not matter whether you've developed this Feral Minotaur by a Monster Class or started out at that level - in fact, the whole point of a Monster Class is to get the same end result. 9 levels after completing the Monster Class a Feral Minotaur can buy off the first adjustment. 6 more levels after that he can buy off the second, and the third can finally be bought off after another 3 levels. The end result is a 24th level character with no Level Adjustment.
gbnogkfs 10-12-04, 10:48 AM	As far as I know, there are no rules of LA buyoff in SS The UA rules are as follows: The starting character has 6 Hit Dice and +3 LA (NOT +0, NOT +1, NOT +2) starting ECL = 6+3 = 9 or 36,000 XPs at 3*3=9 levels of CLASS LEVELS (Total ECL of 9(starting) + 9 = 18 or 153,000 XP) you can reduce LA to +2, paying 17*1,000= 17,000 XPs, and dropping to a total ECL of 17 with 136,000 XPs at 2*3=6 more CLASS LEVELS (total ECL of 17(from previous buyoff)+6=23 or 253,000 XPs) you can reduce LA to +1, paying 22*1,000=22,000 XPs, and dropping to a total ECL of 22 with 231,000 XPs at 1*3=6 more CLASS LEVELS (total ECL of 22(from previous buyoff)+3=25 or 300,000 XPs) you can reduce LA to +0, paying 24*1,000=24,000 XPs, and dropping to a total ECL of 24 with 276,000 XPs At this point (and not before) you have 6 Minotaur HDs, 18 class HDs and a Level Adjustment of +0
Shebnar 10-12-04, 01:32 PM	Thank you for the clarification, but there’s still a doubt :blush: : In Savage Species is clearly written that a monster character who undergoes a full monster racial progression (= his ECL) has a +0 LA, since he ‘buys off’ his LA through the increment of ‘racial levels’. Savage Species, PAGE 25: […] When using these rules to create a character with one or more levels in a monster class, you can ignore level adjustement. This is replaced by your character’s monster class levels. […] (emphasis mine) So a Minotaur who takes the minotaur monster class has a LA +0, since the monster class levels are actually a kind of ‘buying off’. A normal Minotaur starts his monster class at 1st level with 1 HD and +0 LA (but he has to complete his class before multiclassing) and ends at 8th level his progression with 6HD and +0 LA. That is why I find difficult to implement the Unearthed Arcana variant system in the monster class progression…The Unearthed Arcana text …Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1… clearly refers to class levels, i.e. the character’s level in a particular class (Wizard, Sorcerer, Fighter etc.), and the 3*LA buyoff mechanics should be counted after he has ended his monster class progression …(not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment)… So, if a Feral Minotaur ends his racial class at 8th level, he has still a +1 LA from the template which has no part in his racial levels, so he will have to buy it off after three class levels (3*1 LA). Let’s suppose this Feral Minotaur takes three levels of Fighter after the 8th level; at 11th level he will buy off his LA. The only way I found to integrate the +1 LA template in a monster class (according to the Unearthed Arcana variant) is to slow down the monster levels progression (as per Level Adjustement mechanics) until 11th level. Otherwise, I could force the player to buyoff the Level Adjustement by progressing through another 'fictious' level at level 9th.
starfire311 10-12-04, 04:32 PM	the problem is in the applying of the feral template after the Racial progression is complete... what should have been done is that you create a racial progression for a feral minotaur that is 9 levels long after these 9 levels it could be said that you can ignore LA, but if you want to use the LA buyoff from LA you have to considor the entire LA you cant ignore it or part of it. The monster class progressions in the SS are just samples and if you were to modifiy the race in anyway so that the is a smaller or larger ECL then you need to modifiy the monster class too. So if he wants to be a feral minotaur he needs to take levels in the feral minotaur racial class and not the minotaur class.
Part-Human2 10-12-04, 09:40 PM	Well I've found we do have official WotC 3.5 Monster Classes, presented in Races of Stone and "use the monster class rules detailed in Savage Species." Unfortunately they do not deal with UA Level Buyoff rules.
gbnogkfs 10-12-04, 10:22 PM	Savage Species, PAGE 25: […] When using these rules to create a character with one or more levels in a monster class, you can ignore level adjustement. This is replaced by your character’s monster class levels. […] (emphasis mine) ok, now it's clear where the problem is :D that (very) unhappy sentence doesn't mean that the progressed monsters have LA +0 (as they are supposed to be equal to the Monster Manual entries): it means that you do not have to calculate the total ECL of the monster by summing up listed HDs and LA, as the final ECL comes out "naturally" by using the monster progression which incorporates Level Adjustment in itself in fact, as there were no rules to buyoff LA until UA, there was little difference between a regular "HD" level and a "LA" level if you were given a table like the ones for the monster progressions in SS: if you note, however, in the "LA" levels skill points are not given, BABs and saves do not increase, and (according to table 2-5, referred to in the introduction to the 3rd chapter) feats and ability increases are not given: that's pretty much the only difference between a +1 HD and a +1 LA (both rising ECL by 1). Racial progressions were made to have a player use a high ECL race from level 1 along fellow humans, elves and the like; the result when a monster progression is over should be (and if you think about a bit, it is quasi-obvious) the same as taking the monster as described in MM in fact, a full grown minotaur has ECL of 8 (you got through 8 levels of progression, so it does have the same XPs of a normal 8th level human), and since it only has 6 Hit Dice, it cannot but have +2 LA (ECL=HD+LA) - last note: Base Fort Saves for 2nd and 3rd level of minotaur progression table should be +0, not +1
trapspringer 10-14-04, 06:17 PM	Let's play a game. It's called pick that race. Would you rather be a Blue, or a feral human? Would you rather be a tiefling, or a feral human? Would you rather be a winged human or a feral human? Would you rather be a half-dragon, or a feral human? Do you see what I am getting at? Anyone?!?
gbnogkfs 10-15-04, 12:25 AM	Let's play a game. It's called pick that race. Would you rather be a Blue, or a feral human? Would you rather be a tiefling, or a feral human? Would you rather be a winged human or a feral human? Would you rather be a half-dragon, or a feral human? Do you see what I am getting at? Anyone?!? not really :rolleyes:
starfire311 10-15-04, 09:30 AM	Let's play a game. It's called pick that race. Would you rather be a Blue, or a feral human? Would you rather be a tiefling, or a feral human? Would you rather be a winged human or a feral human? Would you rather be a half-dragon, or a feral human? Do you see what I am getting at? Anyone?!? I want to play a feral Divine rank 20 Paragon Human of Legend yeah baby