Level based Defense bonus, I think I have it at last [Archive] - Wizards Community

Level based Defense bonus, I think I have it at last [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
sindar
02-04-06, 09:39 PM The Progressions
Each progression follows the same formula as the save progression of the same name.

Core classes (SRD):

Barbarian : Good
Bard: Good
Cleric: Average
Druid: Average
Fighter: Good
Monk : Good
Paladin ; Good
Psion: Poor
Psychic Warrior : Average
Ranger: Excellent
Rogue: Good
Sorcerer: Poor
Soulknife: Good
Wilder ; Average
Wizards: Poor

Number per progression
Excellent : 1
Good : 7
Average: 4
Poor: 3

Defense bonus replaces Armor bonus for purposes of stacking, so normal armor as well as spells like mage armor provide a Defense bonus instead of an armor bonus meaning you take the higher.
I based deciding who got what progression by base attack bonus and Reflex save which is why a fighter and Rogue have the same progression.
Kapalen
02-04-06, 11:30 PM I thought there were only good and poor save progressions?
Crimson_Concerto
02-05-06, 12:57 AM Umm, what's wrong with the defence bonus variant in UA?

I think works more because it's based on armor proficiency (and the entire point of the defence bonus is for when you don't want armor) and progresses to compensate for better armor and enhancement bonuses to said armor.

And why does Excellent get worse than Poor? :confused:
Lina_Inverse
02-05-06, 04:16 AM You forgot game balance and roles.
Rogues should not have the AC of fighters.
Rangers should not be better tanks than everyone else.
Gilean
02-05-06, 05:17 AM Is this done to add tactical depht (if yes, see what Line and Crimson wrote)?
If this is done to add realism, it plain doesn't work. I suggest them to be equal to BAB in that case, and stack with armours.
jedi_unger
02-09-06, 04:59 PM Is this done to add tactical depht (if yes, see what Line and Crimson wrote)?
If this is done to add realism, it plain doesn't work. I suggest them to be equal to BAB in that case, and stack with armours.

Rangers would rule!

Try:
Def. bonus = BAB
Armor --> provides DR
Monk gets no additional UA def. bonus
Rogue Newb
02-12-06, 10:48 AM yeah. In SW, where I think defense first appeared, armor didn't give AC. it gave DR so that you really had only your class to boost your def.
PerennialRook
02-12-06, 11:07 PM Why wouldn't rogues have the same defense bonus as fighters? A fighter is merely trained better in using armor. Defense is arguably more important to someone who does not wear armor if the two do not stack. My solution is to offer other advantages for armor in addition to defense. As for BDB, I use a progression on .6, .5, .4, and .3 per level, using common sense as a guide for deciding who gets what.
Netherek
03-03-06, 04:08 AM Simple, Fighters live and die by the sword, that is their meat and drink. A rogue runs away and fights another day, or sneaks a knife in the back. A rogue is an adventuring Thief. A thief doesn't a lot of swordplay.

Simply put, Rogues aren't warriors. They may be agile, but that's factored in by Dex, Ref, Evasion, Trapsense, etc. They are good at slipping away, not staying in the thick of battle.
dragonman407
03-05-06, 01:18 AM Why don't we try to find a way for determining BDB that isn't tied to what class you are?

Either that, or you can base it on reflex saves. I believe that using BAB to determine BDB is not the right way to go. BAB might be able to determine how fast or accurately you can swing a weapon, or block with one, but isn't there a feat that lets you make opposed attack rolls to parry an attack?
I think what we need to figure out is: Is BDB your obility to dodge, or ability to block and parry?
Lina_Inverse
03-05-06, 03:07 AM Why wouldn't rogues have the same defense bonus as fighters? A fighter is merely trained better in using armor. Defense is arguably more important to someone who does not wear armor if the two do not stack. My solution is to offer other advantages for armor in addition to defense. As for BDB, I use a progression on .6, .5, .4, and .3 per level, using common sense as a guide for deciding who gets what.

A fighters entire purpose to his party is as the tank.
The fighter is the charecter who will take the blows so the squishies can kill everything.
A classes Armor profiency is designed to accent the classes role first and foremost. A fighter type should be the best at takeing hits generally. A rogue is far more squishy as he brings uses besides getting his arse whomped to the party, hence the d6 hitdie and light armor.

D&D is a team game, and the classes are built around that. The first rule of thumb for any kind of class alterations is "does this alteration serve the classes purpose".
Vaelan
03-06-06, 05:16 AM Why?

If you don't answer this question in your post, we really can't tell you anything useful about your rules.

So, Sindar, tell us: why did you take the time to write up this rule?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sindar 02-04-06, 09:39 PM	The Progressions Each progression follows the same formula as the save progression of the same name. Core classes (SRD): Barbarian : Good Bard: Good Cleric: Average Druid: Average Fighter: Good Monk : Good Paladin ; Good Psion: Poor Psychic Warrior : Average Ranger: Excellent Rogue: Good Sorcerer: Poor Soulknife: Good Wilder ; Average Wizards: Poor Number per progression Excellent : 1 Good : 7 Average: 4 Poor: 3 Defense bonus replaces Armor bonus for purposes of stacking, so normal armor as well as spells like mage armor provide a Defense bonus instead of an armor bonus meaning you take the higher. I based deciding who got what progression by base attack bonus and Reflex save which is why a fighter and Rogue have the same progression.
Kapalen 02-04-06, 11:30 PM	I thought there were only good and poor save progressions?
Crimson_Concerto 02-05-06, 12:57 AM	Umm, what's wrong with the defence bonus variant in UA? I think works more because it's based on armor proficiency (and the entire point of the defence bonus is for when you don't want armor) and progresses to compensate for better armor and enhancement bonuses to said armor. And why does Excellent get worse than Poor? :confused:
Lina_Inverse 02-05-06, 04:16 AM	You forgot game balance and roles. Rogues should not have the AC of fighters. Rangers should not be better tanks than everyone else.
Gilean 02-05-06, 05:17 AM	Is this done to add tactical depht (if yes, see what Line and Crimson wrote)? If this is done to add realism, it plain doesn't work. I suggest them to be equal to BAB in that case, and stack with armours.
jedi_unger 02-09-06, 04:59 PM	Is this done to add tactical depht (if yes, see what Line and Crimson wrote)? If this is done to add realism, it plain doesn't work. I suggest them to be equal to BAB in that case, and stack with armours. Rangers would rule! Try: Def. bonus = BAB Armor --> provides DR Monk gets no additional UA def. bonus
Rogue Newb 02-12-06, 10:48 AM	yeah. In SW, where I think defense first appeared, armor didn't give AC. it gave DR so that you really had only your class to boost your def.
PerennialRook 02-12-06, 11:07 PM	Why wouldn't rogues have the same defense bonus as fighters? A fighter is merely trained better in using armor. Defense is arguably more important to someone who does not wear armor if the two do not stack. My solution is to offer other advantages for armor in addition to defense. As for BDB, I use a progression on .6, .5, .4, and .3 per level, using common sense as a guide for deciding who gets what.
Netherek 03-03-06, 04:08 AM	Simple, Fighters live and die by the sword, that is their meat and drink. A rogue runs away and fights another day, or sneaks a knife in the back. A rogue is an adventuring Thief. A thief doesn't a lot of swordplay. Simply put, Rogues aren't warriors. They may be agile, but that's factored in by Dex, Ref, Evasion, Trapsense, etc. They are good at slipping away, not staying in the thick of battle.
dragonman407 03-05-06, 01:18 AM	Why don't we try to find a way for determining BDB that isn't tied to what class you are? Either that, or you can base it on reflex saves. I believe that using BAB to determine BDB is not the right way to go. BAB might be able to determine how fast or accurately you can swing a weapon, or block with one, but isn't there a feat that lets you make opposed attack rolls to parry an attack? I think what we need to figure out is: Is BDB your obility to dodge, or ability to block and parry?
Lina_Inverse 03-05-06, 03:07 AM	Why wouldn't rogues have the same defense bonus as fighters? A fighter is merely trained better in using armor. Defense is arguably more important to someone who does not wear armor if the two do not stack. My solution is to offer other advantages for armor in addition to defense. As for BDB, I use a progression on .6, .5, .4, and .3 per level, using common sense as a guide for deciding who gets what. A fighters entire purpose to his party is as the tank. The fighter is the charecter who will take the blows so the squishies can kill everything. A classes Armor profiency is designed to accent the classes role first and foremost. A fighter type should be the best at takeing hits generally. A rogue is far more squishy as he brings uses besides getting his arse whomped to the party, hence the d6 hitdie and light armor. D&D is a team game, and the classes are built around that. The first rule of thumb for any kind of class alterations is "does this alteration serve the classes purpose".
Vaelan 03-06-06, 05:16 AM	Why? If you don't answer this question in your post, we really can't tell you anything useful about your rules. So, Sindar, tell us: why did you take the time to write up this rule?