Leveling up/Multiclassing in Gestalt [Archive] - Wizards Community

Leveling up/Multiclassing in Gestalt [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
dragonseth
08-11-06, 02:27 PM Hi! We are going to be playing a gestalt campaign soon. We're starting at level 1. When we level up, I'm going to multiclass. This is where I get confused. Let's say I was a Fighter/Ninja. BAB of 1, Fort 2, Ref 2, Will 0. Right? Okay. Next, I grab another Ninja, and Rogue on the other side where Fighter was. I am having a lot of trouble figuring out how my BAB and saves go up. It says 'use the best progression'. Does that mean: My ninja BAB goes up by 1 at this level, so my total does? Or, does my BAB change at all? And what about saves? Do I get a +2 boost to my Ref saves like normal still? But what about Ninja's +2 going to +3? Does that affect things? This might sound very stupid, but it is killing my brain figuring out what happens.
Fuzzy_Logic
08-11-06, 10:55 PM For the record, I don't understand this either.
Malkieri
08-11-06, 11:05 PM Ok, here's MY understanding of the gestalt rules. It says on page 73 UA under class features:

A gestalt character follow a similar procedure when he attains 2nd and subsequent levels. Each time he gains a new level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his characteristics

It also says take the best progression of each on pg. 72, so, what you really need to look at is progessions, on pg. 22 of the PHB. The rogue and ninja both have the same save progression "good" reflex, poor fortitude and will. They also have the same base attack progession "average". In this case, you'd go with the ninja's +3 to reflex because the ninja and the rogue have the same kind of progression, but the ninja is the higher level class, and the ninja's total of +3 to reflex is better than the rogues +2 total.

If you take 2 similar classes, they won't differ much except in class abilities, everything else will be the same, this character, at 20th level would have.

A Base attack of +16 (+15 from ninja progression, then +1 from fighter progression because base attack bonuses stack, and you start off as being treated as having a +1 at 1st instead of 0 and progress from there. At 2nd level you add the +1 from ninja to the +1 from 1st Fighter, for +2, and so on...)

Base saves of 8/12/6 (You receive a +2 from the fighter class to your fortitude save, once you start getting bonuses from your ninja or rogue class to that save, they stack since they are not from the same source or progession).

Rogue's skill points and 10d6 sneak attack, and ninja's 10d6 sudden strike because they are NOT the same ability and have different circumstances under which they can be used. As well as the other special abilities of each class.

Which can hurt you, after all, a Fighter/Sorcerer ends up with +20 base attack, +12/6/12 saves. When you gestalt, it is usually in your best interest to find classes who's saves and/or base attack progression do NOT overlap.
Rochlar
08-12-06, 03:05 AM im pretty sure i understood how you described your char, let me see if this sounds right. be sure to always use the standard multiclassing rules, with the modification of using the best of either class at any level.
level 1 - Ftr1 + Nja1

+1 BAB from fighter
+2 fort save from fighter
+2 ref save from ninja
+0 will save (from either, they are the same)
fighter feat, Ki power, sudden strike (+1d6), trapfinding

level 2 - Rog1/Ftr1 + Nja2

+1 BAB from ninja -- total BAB of +2)
+0 fort save (agian, they match) -- total of +2
+2 ref save from ninja (because its bigger than the +1 from ninja) -- total of +4
+0 will save (matching bonuses agian) -- total of +0
sneak attack (+1d6), ghost step (invisibile)

so you end up with:
BAB: +2

Fort: +2
Ref: +4
Will: +0

HD: 1d10 (max) + 1d6

Skill points: (24+int) + (8+int)

Class Abilities: 1 fighter feat, Ki power, sudden strike (+1d6), trapfinding, sneak attack (+1d6), ghost step (invisibile)
Schmendrick
08-12-06, 05:54 AM Take a look at the "fractional bonuses" sidebar on the page with gestalt rules. Take it to heart.

Each class grants either poor, medium, or good BAB; 1/2, 3/4, or 1 per level.

Saves come in two flavors: poor and good. Poor saves advance at 1/3 point per level. Good saves advance at 1/2 point per level, with a bonus of 2 points at 1st level.

When you level up in gestalt, check each of these, and take the better. For BAB, this is really easy: Ftr and Nja have BABs of 1 and 3/4, so one level of "Ftr//Nja" increases your BAB by 1. Rog and Nja are both 3/4, so a gestalt level that uses these two classes only gets 3/4 for that level.

Saves are essentially the same; if one of the classes being gestalted have the save as a "good" one, you advance 1/2, and tack on a bonus 2 points if it's the first level. In your case, the 2nd character level consists of Nja2/Rog1, so your Reflex save goes up by 2 1/2. (Note that some DMs will restrict the "2-point bump," just as in many non-gestalt games, so check first. Personally, I recommend allowing only one "2pt. bump" per save; subsequent 1st-levels only grant 1 "free" point. But I digress...)
Malkieri
08-12-06, 03:12 PM Something people don't seem to understand, it says in the UA you use the best PROGRESSION, not the highest number, the character in question would come out as follows. You do NOT receive the +2 bump unless you change progressions, a poor save to a good one.

fighter/Ninja 1

1 level of Good BAB progression from fighter= +1
1 level of Good Fortitude progression from fighter, 1 level of Good Reflex from ninja, 1 level of poor will save: +2/2/0
Whatever special abilities

Fighter 1/Ninja1/Rogue 2 2nd-level gestalt

1 level of average BAB progression from rogue/ninja since they both use average: +0
1 level of Poor fortitude, 1 more level of good reflex, and 1 more level of poor will saves: +2/3/0

You do not get a +2 bump from the ninja, both the rogue and the ninja use a GOOD Reflex progression, so it continues as a good reflex progression, which is +3 at 2nd level. It specifically says in UA unde Base Saving Throws "choose the better progression NOT the highest number.

If you were to go back to the fighter at 3rd level, you'd add 2 levels of good fortitude progression of 1 level of poor.
Thunder Rift
08-13-06, 10:43 AM What your all saying makes perfect sense. I had a real hard time understanding exactly how this worked myself. I just assumed you took the best number, stupid me... :(
Voran
08-30-06, 05:03 AM Yeah, the way I was reading it, you don't to use the 'traditional' Multiclassing rules if you're using gestalt chars.
Cifer
09-01-06, 07:37 PM Something people don't seem to understand, it says in the UA you use the best PROGRESSION, not the highest number,
This seems funny. If I was a fighter1//ninja1 and went up a level, I would get a worse reflex save by choosing ftr1/rog1//ninja2 (would be +3 by your logic) over ftr1/rog1//ninja1/brb1 (would have to be +4, since rogue 1 adds 2 points)?
I prefer to read "progression" as "increase from the last level" - in which case, the rogue +2 would override the ninja +1.
EvilVegan
09-02-06, 12:20 PM When you add a class it gets an instant +2.5 in good saves. so if you were fighter//rogue and then went cleric//ninja your saves would go from Fort 2.5, Reflex 2.5, Will .3 to Fort 5, Reflex 5, Will 2.8. This is the reason you lower the DC of anything that relies on saving throws to win, like medusa or harpies.
Schmendrick
09-04-06, 09:29 PM Well, actually saves are higher in gestalt, even without multiclassing, because characters are assumed to have higher saves in general -- it's assumed that gestalt classes will be chosen with saves in mind, so all characters will have "good" saves. It's comparable to lowering the CRs of will-save based monsters against a party of clerics and wizards.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dragonseth 08-11-06, 02:27 PM	Hi! We are going to be playing a gestalt campaign soon. We're starting at level 1. When we level up, I'm going to multiclass. This is where I get confused. Let's say I was a Fighter/Ninja. BAB of 1, Fort 2, Ref 2, Will 0. Right? Okay. Next, I grab another Ninja, and Rogue on the other side where Fighter was. I am having a lot of trouble figuring out how my BAB and saves go up. It says 'use the best progression'. Does that mean: My ninja BAB goes up by 1 at this level, so my total does? Or, does my BAB change at all? And what about saves? Do I get a +2 boost to my Ref saves like normal still? But what about Ninja's +2 going to +3? Does that affect things? This might sound very stupid, but it is killing my brain figuring out what happens.
Fuzzy_Logic 08-11-06, 10:55 PM	For the record, I don't understand this either.
Malkieri 08-11-06, 11:05 PM	Ok, here's MY understanding of the gestalt rules. It says on page 73 UA under class features: A gestalt character follow a similar procedure when he attains 2nd and subsequent levels. Each time he gains a new level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his characteristics It also says take the best progression of each on pg. 72, so, what you really need to look at is progessions, on pg. 22 of the PHB. The rogue and ninja both have the same save progression "good" reflex, poor fortitude and will. They also have the same base attack progession "average". In this case, you'd go with the ninja's +3 to reflex because the ninja and the rogue have the same kind of progression, but the ninja is the higher level class, and the ninja's total of +3 to reflex is better than the rogues +2 total. If you take 2 similar classes, they won't differ much except in class abilities, everything else will be the same, this character, at 20th level would have. A Base attack of +16 (+15 from ninja progression, then +1 from fighter progression because base attack bonuses stack, and you start off as being treated as having a +1 at 1st instead of 0 and progress from there. At 2nd level you add the +1 from ninja to the +1 from 1st Fighter, for +2, and so on...) Base saves of 8/12/6 (You receive a +2 from the fighter class to your fortitude save, once you start getting bonuses from your ninja or rogue class to that save, they stack since they are not from the same source or progession). Rogue's skill points and 10d6 sneak attack, and ninja's 10d6 sudden strike because they are NOT the same ability and have different circumstances under which they can be used. As well as the other special abilities of each class. Which can hurt you, after all, a Fighter/Sorcerer ends up with +20 base attack, +12/6/12 saves. When you gestalt, it is usually in your best interest to find classes who's saves and/or base attack progression do NOT overlap.
Rochlar 08-12-06, 03:05 AM	im pretty sure i understood how you described your char, let me see if this sounds right. be sure to always use the standard multiclassing rules, with the modification of using the best of either class at any level. level 1 - Ftr1 + Nja1 +1 BAB from fighter +2 fort save from fighter +2 ref save from ninja +0 will save (from either, they are the same) fighter feat, Ki power, sudden strike (+1d6), trapfinding level 2 - Rog1/Ftr1 + Nja2 +1 BAB from ninja -- total BAB of +2) +0 fort save (agian, they match) -- total of +2 +2 ref save from ninja (because its bigger than the +1 from ninja) -- total of +4 +0 will save (matching bonuses agian) -- total of +0 sneak attack (+1d6), ghost step (invisibile) so you end up with: BAB: +2 Fort: +2 Ref: +4 Will: +0 HD: 1d10 (max) + 1d6 Skill points: (24+int) + (8+int) Class Abilities: 1 fighter feat, Ki power, sudden strike (+1d6), trapfinding, sneak attack (+1d6), ghost step (invisibile)
Schmendrick 08-12-06, 05:54 AM	Take a look at the "fractional bonuses" sidebar on the page with gestalt rules. Take it to heart. Each class grants either poor, medium, or good BAB; 1/2, 3/4, or 1 per level. Saves come in two flavors: poor and good. Poor saves advance at 1/3 point per level. Good saves advance at 1/2 point per level, with a bonus of 2 points at 1st level. When you level up in gestalt, check each of these, and take the better. For BAB, this is really easy: Ftr and Nja have BABs of 1 and 3/4, so one level of "Ftr//Nja" increases your BAB by 1. Rog and Nja are both 3/4, so a gestalt level that uses these two classes only gets 3/4 for that level. Saves are essentially the same; if one of the classes being gestalted have the save as a "good" one, you advance 1/2, and tack on a bonus 2 points if it's the first level. In your case, the 2nd character level consists of Nja2/Rog1, so your Reflex save goes up by 2 1/2. (Note that some DMs will restrict the "2-point bump," just as in many non-gestalt games, so check first. Personally, I recommend allowing only one "2pt. bump" per save; subsequent 1st-levels only grant 1 "free" point. But I digress...)
Malkieri 08-12-06, 03:12 PM	Something people don't seem to understand, it says in the UA you use the best PROGRESSION, not the highest number, the character in question would come out as follows. You do NOT receive the +2 bump unless you change progressions, a poor save to a good one. fighter/Ninja 1 1 level of Good BAB progression from fighter= +1 1 level of Good Fortitude progression from fighter, 1 level of Good Reflex from ninja, 1 level of poor will save: +2/2/0 Whatever special abilities Fighter 1/Ninja1/Rogue 2 2nd-level gestalt 1 level of average BAB progression from rogue/ninja since they both use average: +0 1 level of Poor fortitude, 1 more level of good reflex, and 1 more level of poor will saves: +2/3/0 You do not get a +2 bump from the ninja, both the rogue and the ninja use a GOOD Reflex progression, so it continues as a good reflex progression, which is +3 at 2nd level. It specifically says in UA unde Base Saving Throws "choose the better progression NOT the highest number. If you were to go back to the fighter at 3rd level, you'd add 2 levels of good fortitude progression of 1 level of poor.
Thunder Rift 08-13-06, 10:43 AM	What your all saying makes perfect sense. I had a real hard time understanding exactly how this worked myself. I just assumed you took the best number, stupid me... :(
Voran 08-30-06, 05:03 AM	Yeah, the way I was reading it, you don't to use the 'traditional' Multiclassing rules if you're using gestalt chars.
Cifer 09-01-06, 07:37 PM	Something people don't seem to understand, it says in the UA you use the best PROGRESSION, not the highest number, This seems funny. If I was a fighter1//ninja1 and went up a level, I would get a worse reflex save by choosing ftr1/rog1//ninja2 (would be +3 by your logic) over ftr1/rog1//ninja1/brb1 (would have to be +4, since rogue 1 adds 2 points)? I prefer to read "progression" as "increase from the last level" - in which case, the rogue +2 would override the ninja +1.
EvilVegan 09-02-06, 12:20 PM	When you add a class it gets an instant +2.5 in good saves. so if you were fighter//rogue and then went cleric//ninja your saves would go from Fort 2.5, Reflex 2.5, Will .3 to Fort 5, Reflex 5, Will 2.8. This is the reason you lower the DC of anything that relies on saving throws to win, like medusa or harpies.
Schmendrick 09-04-06, 09:29 PM	Well, actually saves are higher in gestalt, even without multiclassing, because characters are assumed to have higher saves in general -- it's assumed that gestalt classes will be chosen with saves in mind, so all characters will have "good" saves. It's comparable to lowering the CRs of will-save based monsters against a party of clerics and wizards.