Library Use in D&D [Archive] - Wizards Community

Library Use in D&D [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Keldarth
02-19-07, 10:36 AM Hi

I've recently created some rules about libraries for my homebrew campaign world. The idea is giving the pcs the possibility to use large archives and chronicles to investigate and to add to some related knowledge skill checks (a la Gandalf in Gondor learning about the one ring) if they are willing to spend time and gold . I'll post them (abridged, of course) to share, and for you to PEACH and tell me what do you think.

Library Use

A library gives circumstance bonuses to certain knowledge skill checks. Those bonuses depends on the size and quality of the library, but even at the most basic levels, a library allows to check the appropiate knowledge skill untrained. Also, a library allows to retry knowledge checks, be it failed checks, o retry to obtain more in-depth information. Libraries have some subjects (knowledge skills) associated to them, and only give bonuses to those skills. Usually libraries have costs based on daily use. Some of the best libraries don't allow usage by everyone, but can be accessible to certain characters via Diplomacy checks. Libraries have also a required time to make a skill check, based on its size and volume of material. Retrying a Skill Check adds a cumulative +2 to the DC and requires spending again the required time. You can take 20 in a library of moderate size or larger, but that means a large scale research.

Some examples of Libraries (some of the largest and most famous) from my campaign:

The Library of Kings of Dor-Loriath

Type: Arcana, History, Local (Alenia), Nature, Nobility and Royalty, the Planes
Site: The Palace of Kings in Dor-Loriath, in the Emerald Isle (Alenia)
Level: 4
Size: Large(15 days/check)
Access: Restricted. Elves and Half-Elves can make a Diplomacy check DC 20, with a +1 bonus per 3 levels, plus a +4 bonus if they have made some mission for the sake of the Elven Woodlands.
Cost: 2 gp/day (30 gp/check)

The Archive of Chronicles of the Cathedral of Light

Type: History, Local (Castlemere), Nobility and Royalty, Religion, The Planes
Site: The Cathedral of Light, Alchest (Castlemere)
Level: 5
Size: Huge (30 days/check)
Access: Restricted. Good characters can make a Diplomacy check DC 25, with the following modifiers: LG +4, +1/3 levels, Cleric or Paladin +5, affair related to the Church of Light +10.
Cost: 3 gp/day (90 gp/check)

The University of the Nine Spheres

Type: Arcana, Dungeoneering, History, Local (Andmaar), Nobility and Royalty, the Planes
Site: Inner City of Zhora-Khand (Andmaar)
Level: 7
Size: Huge(30 days/check)
Access: Restricted to the members of the College of the Nine Spheres. Everyone else can check Diplomacy DC 30, with the following modifiers: Andmar human +5; Wizard +10; other arcane spellcaster+5; non-human -2; Alignment LG or CE -4; Alignment True Neutral +4; +1/5 levels; acknowledged by the Circle of Nine +10
Cost: 4 gp/day (120 gp/check)

That's it... what do you think?
Magrus
02-19-07, 10:56 AM You didn't go into the bonuses using this system could provide at all. What does using this do exactly? I know it would be circumstancial, and open to variation, but an example would be nice if you want an opinion on things overall. :confused: This looks good so far, but...it could all go out the window if you start letting players run a 30 day check in order to get a +20 to every roll for 120 gp.
Keldarth
02-19-07, 11:24 AM Ooops... I forgot to say that the library's level is the bonus it grants to the knowledge check... I will post an example for better clarity:

Mirlak Silveroak, bladesinger extraordinaire, is researching the name of a particular demon lord. He wants to know more things about this new enemy, like in what layer of the Abyss he dwells, his past history, penchants and the like. He travels to his homeland, the Elven Woodlands of Alenia and visits the Library of Kings of Dor-Loriath. This library has a restricted access, but being an elf, he can make a Diplomacy Check DC 20. He has a +5 bonus for being 15th level (his exploits are reaching the ears of the kings) and a +4 for having made some missions for the elves in the past.

Assuming he makes his Diplomacy check, he pays the daily cost and he can start using the library. Since the Library of Kings is of moderate size, 15 days of study and perusal must pass before Mirlak gets to make a Knowledge - the Planes check, and this check will get a circumstance bonus of +4. If an emergency happens and he must leave before those 15 days, the time of study has been wasted. If Mirlak fails his knowledge check, or wants to reroll for a better result, he can do so, but at a +2 DC and must spend another 15 days studying. If he wants to be exhaustive, he could take 20 (the library is large enough to allow it) but this would need 10 months of study and 600 gp.

I hope this makes clear the intent and use of the library use rules.
ppirilla
02-20-07, 05:59 PM Take a look at the Research skill from D20 Modern. The concept is quite good, but I think the times are much longer than they need to be.
Keldarth
02-21-07, 04:38 AM Take a look at the Research skill from D20 Modern. The concept is quite good, but I think the times are much longer than they need to be.

Well, I'm totally ignorant when it comes to D20 Modern, but medieval libraries were not like today's libraries and databases and internet... They don't have a librarian to aid you, and the medieval books and tomes and codexes... each one of them could take days by itself! Have you ever visited a medieval library? If you see the one here in Barcelona, you'll understand what I mean...

Also, the example libraries were the largest of the bunch, "la creme de la creme" of my campaign world... more modest libraries give lesser skill bonuses, but the time needed to peruse them is much less too.
JustinA
02-21-07, 06:32 PM A library gives circumstance bonuses to certain knowledge skill checks. Those bonuses depends on the size and quality of the library, but even at the most basic levels, a library allows to check the appropiate knowledge skill untrained.

You don't explain, but am I correct in assuming that you add the library's level as a bonus to your skill check for any Knowledge skill covered by the library's type??

I'd recommend ranking libraries in terms of their collections. For example, a library might have a Knowledge (history - elves) collection +5 with a smaller Knowledge (botany) collection +1.

Not every library will have equal depth in every subject they happen to cover.

Libraries have also a required time to make a skill check, based on its size and volume of material.

Actually, I would think this would be based on the organization of the material and/or the size of the bonus.

Suggestion: For every +1 bonus to your Knowledge check from a library, it takes X amount of time to do the research (with X being defined by the library's organization).

So, for example, a well-organized library would give you a +1 bonus to your Knowledge check for every two hours you spend researching. A poorly organized library would give you a +1 bonus to your Knowledge check for every day (or even longer) that you spend researching.

This mechanic has two advantages:

1. It allows the characters to cut their research short. Just because a library is huge doesn't mean you have to read every available resource. (This is also useful if they get interrupted: Just because your enemies have burned down the library, it doesn't mean you didn't manage to learn anything valuable during the week you spent there.)

2. It allows you to model libraries with small and poorly-managed collections and libraries with large and well-organized collections.

You could also implement mechanics for librarians. Libraries might charge extra for the services of their librarians, but the librarians would reduce the amount of time it takes to do your research.

Retrying a Skill Check adds a cumulative +2 to the DC and requires spending again the required time. You can take 20 in a library of moderate size or larger, but that means a large scale research.

These two mechanics don't make any sense next to each: Taking 20 on a check is literally meant to model retrying it over and over again until you get a 20.

Plus, I just don't understand the reason behind raising the DC with each check. I think you're trying to prevent people from trying the check over and over again, but since you already let them take 20 I don't understand what you're trying to accomplish.

Suggestion 1: You can't take 20 when using a library, but you can take 10.

Suggestion 2: Using a library allows you to retry a Knowledge check you'd previously failed, even if that Knowledge check was made with the assistance of a different library (since every library has different resources, 'natch).

Suggestion 3: If your research at a library is interrupted, you can go back to the library and continue your research. You use the same roll you got on your original Knowledge check using the library, but you use the new bonus resulting from continuing your research.

Alternatively: You get one roll on any given Knowledge check. Once you've made that check, you're stuck with the roll -- but you can use libraries to increase the bonus to that original roll. Each additional library after the library with the highest collection bonus adds a +2 circumstance bonus, regardless of the size of the library (but using multiple libraries cannot do more than double the bonus of the largest library you used).

Suggestion 4: If you gain ranks in a Knowledge skill, you can retry your research check at any library, but you have to spend the time doing the research again (your new and deeper insight into the subject may give you a deeper insight into correlating the library's resources).

Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net
JustinA
02-21-07, 06:40 PM Take a look at the Research skill from D20 Modern. The concept is quite good, but I think the times are much longer than they need to be.

There's a couple of reasons I don't like the Research skill:

1. There's no clear distinction between what requires a Knowledge check and what requires a Research check. There seems to be kind of a murky Venn diagram there: Finding the blueprints of a specific building would probably be a Knowledge (local) check with a ridiculously high DC (who memorizes he blueprints for every building in a large city?), but a Research check with an extremely low DC (go to the local government office, pay the fee, walk out with the blueprint).

2. It's interesting to have the distinction between what you know (Knowledge) and what you can look up (Research), but shouldn't what you know have some impact on what you can look up?

I think you're generally better off ditching the Research skill and using a Knowledge check for it. Not sure what to do with the situation where there's a specific piece of information which only an expert would know off the top of their head, but research would trivially turn up -- but that's probably surmountable.
Darth Sephiroth
02-21-07, 08:58 PM I think libraries are pretty well covered in Stronghold Builders guide. Using them grants bonus' to various skill checks.
JustinA
02-22-07, 01:48 AM I think libraries are pretty well covered in Stronghold Builders guide. Using them grants bonus' to various skill checks.

Those rules aren't a bad start (and seem to be the basis of the rules suggested here). But those rules don't cover some obvious questions:

1. Does going to a research library allow you to retry a Knowledge check you failed? If not, why not? If so, how many times can you retry it? Can you retry it at different libraries? If not, why not?

2. How long does it take to use a library? A standard Knowledge check requires absolutely no action at all (it's not even a free action, it's no action). Obviously you shouldn't be able to walk through the doors of a library, make the Knowledge check, and then walk back out again. But how long does it take to do research? Does it depend on the size of the library/bonus?

I would say that those are the two big questions that you need answers to, because they're the types of questions that players are going to ask you as a DM. Obviously you can just make the answers up on the fly -- but that's true of any rule.

There are also minor things that it would be nice to have answers to. Some of those have already been suggested in this thread. I'm sure there are probably others.
Boraxe
02-22-07, 10:28 AM Well, I'm totally ignorant when it comes to D20 Modern, but medieval libraries were not like today's libraries and databases and internet... They don't have a librarian to aid you, and the medieval books and tomes and codexes... each one of them could take days by itself! Have you ever visited a medieval library? If you see the one here in Barcelona, you'll understand what I mean...

Also, the example libraries were the largest of the bunch, "la creme de la creme" of my campaign world... more modest libraries give lesser skill bonuses, but the time needed to peruse them is much less too.

Yes, but D&D isn't the real world in the middle ages. In a world where literacy is commonplace, libraries tend to be more organized.

I like the idea but I think you are making it more difficult than it needs to be. The study time is punitively long, and this also doesn't account for the time and expense that may be required just to get to the library to start with. Really, it'd be much quicker and easier to just get a potion of Fox's Cunning, say, for much the same result.

I'd either cut the research times by as much as 1/3 or I'd have research assistants in the library that can be hired to aid your task. Each assistant working for you either knocks two days off the total time required or adds a +1 to your check. No more than 3 assistants can work for you at any one time, the number baing based on the size of the library. I'd probably set their rate at 3-5 gp per day but there are limited number available so if several people want to hire them then the rate may rise.

Hope this helps. Cheers.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Keldarth 02-19-07, 10:36 AM	Hi I've recently created some rules about libraries for my homebrew campaign world. The idea is giving the pcs the possibility to use large archives and chronicles to investigate and to add to some related knowledge skill checks (a la Gandalf in Gondor learning about the one ring) if they are willing to spend time and gold . I'll post them (abridged, of course) to share, and for you to PEACH and tell me what do you think. Library Use A library gives circumstance bonuses to certain knowledge skill checks. Those bonuses depends on the size and quality of the library, but even at the most basic levels, a library allows to check the appropiate knowledge skill untrained. Also, a library allows to retry knowledge checks, be it failed checks, o retry to obtain more in-depth information. Libraries have some subjects (knowledge skills) associated to them, and only give bonuses to those skills. Usually libraries have costs based on daily use. Some of the best libraries don't allow usage by everyone, but can be accessible to certain characters via Diplomacy checks. Libraries have also a required time to make a skill check, based on its size and volume of material. Retrying a Skill Check adds a cumulative +2 to the DC and requires spending again the required time. You can take 20 in a library of moderate size or larger, but that means a large scale research. Some examples of Libraries (some of the largest and most famous) from my campaign: The Library of Kings of Dor-Loriath Type: Arcana, History, Local (Alenia), Nature, Nobility and Royalty, the Planes Site: The Palace of Kings in Dor-Loriath, in the Emerald Isle (Alenia) Level: 4 Size: Large(15 days/check) Access: Restricted. Elves and Half-Elves can make a Diplomacy check DC 20, with a +1 bonus per 3 levels, plus a +4 bonus if they have made some mission for the sake of the Elven Woodlands. Cost: 2 gp/day (30 gp/check) The Archive of Chronicles of the Cathedral of Light Type: History, Local (Castlemere), Nobility and Royalty, Religion, The Planes Site: The Cathedral of Light, Alchest (Castlemere) Level: 5 Size: Huge (30 days/check) Access: Restricted. Good characters can make a Diplomacy check DC 25, with the following modifiers: LG +4, +1/3 levels, Cleric or Paladin +5, affair related to the Church of Light +10. Cost: 3 gp/day (90 gp/check) The University of the Nine Spheres Type: Arcana, Dungeoneering, History, Local (Andmaar), Nobility and Royalty, the Planes Site: Inner City of Zhora-Khand (Andmaar) Level: 7 Size: Huge(30 days/check) Access: Restricted to the members of the College of the Nine Spheres. Everyone else can check Diplomacy DC 30, with the following modifiers: Andmar human +5; Wizard +10; other arcane spellcaster+5; non-human -2; Alignment LG or CE -4; Alignment True Neutral +4; +1/5 levels; acknowledged by the Circle of Nine +10 Cost: 4 gp/day (120 gp/check) That's it... what do you think?
Magrus 02-19-07, 10:56 AM	You didn't go into the bonuses using this system could provide at all. What does using this do exactly? I know it would be circumstancial, and open to variation, but an example would be nice if you want an opinion on things overall. :confused: This looks good so far, but...it could all go out the window if you start letting players run a 30 day check in order to get a +20 to every roll for 120 gp.
Keldarth 02-19-07, 11:24 AM	Ooops... I forgot to say that the library's level is the bonus it grants to the knowledge check... I will post an example for better clarity: Mirlak Silveroak, bladesinger extraordinaire, is researching the name of a particular demon lord. He wants to know more things about this new enemy, like in what layer of the Abyss he dwells, his past history, penchants and the like. He travels to his homeland, the Elven Woodlands of Alenia and visits the Library of Kings of Dor-Loriath. This library has a restricted access, but being an elf, he can make a Diplomacy Check DC 20. He has a +5 bonus for being 15th level (his exploits are reaching the ears of the kings) and a +4 for having made some missions for the elves in the past. Assuming he makes his Diplomacy check, he pays the daily cost and he can start using the library. Since the Library of Kings is of moderate size, 15 days of study and perusal must pass before Mirlak gets to make a Knowledge - the Planes check, and this check will get a circumstance bonus of +4. If an emergency happens and he must leave before those 15 days, the time of study has been wasted. If Mirlak fails his knowledge check, or wants to reroll for a better result, he can do so, but at a +2 DC and must spend another 15 days studying. If he wants to be exhaustive, he could take 20 (the library is large enough to allow it) but this would need 10 months of study and 600 gp. I hope this makes clear the intent and use of the library use rules.
ppirilla 02-20-07, 05:59 PM	Take a look at the Research skill from D20 Modern. The concept is quite good, but I think the times are much longer than they need to be.
Keldarth 02-21-07, 04:38 AM	Take a look at the Research skill from D20 Modern. The concept is quite good, but I think the times are much longer than they need to be. Well, I'm totally ignorant when it comes to D20 Modern, but medieval libraries were not like today's libraries and databases and internet... They don't have a librarian to aid you, and the medieval books and tomes and codexes... each one of them could take days by itself! Have you ever visited a medieval library? If you see the one here in Barcelona, you'll understand what I mean... Also, the example libraries were the largest of the bunch, "la creme de la creme" of my campaign world... more modest libraries give lesser skill bonuses, but the time needed to peruse them is much less too.
JustinA 02-21-07, 06:32 PM	A library gives circumstance bonuses to certain knowledge skill checks. Those bonuses depends on the size and quality of the library, but even at the most basic levels, a library allows to check the appropiate knowledge skill untrained. You don't explain, but am I correct in assuming that you add the library's level as a bonus to your skill check for any Knowledge skill covered by the library's type?? I'd recommend ranking libraries in terms of their collections. For example, a library might have a Knowledge (history - elves) collection +5 with a smaller Knowledge (botany) collection +1. Not every library will have equal depth in every subject they happen to cover. Libraries have also a required time to make a skill check, based on its size and volume of material. Actually, I would think this would be based on the organization of the material and/or the size of the bonus. Suggestion: For every +1 bonus to your Knowledge check from a library, it takes X amount of time to do the research (with X being defined by the library's organization). So, for example, a well-organized library would give you a +1 bonus to your Knowledge check for every two hours you spend researching. A poorly organized library would give you a +1 bonus to your Knowledge check for every day (or even longer) that you spend researching. This mechanic has two advantages: 1. It allows the characters to cut their research short. Just because a library is huge doesn't mean you have to read every available resource. (This is also useful if they get interrupted: Just because your enemies have burned down the library, it doesn't mean you didn't manage to learn anything valuable during the week you spent there.) 2. It allows you to model libraries with small and poorly-managed collections and libraries with large and well-organized collections. You could also implement mechanics for librarians. Libraries might charge extra for the services of their librarians, but the librarians would reduce the amount of time it takes to do your research. Retrying a Skill Check adds a cumulative +2 to the DC and requires spending again the required time. You can take 20 in a library of moderate size or larger, but that means a large scale research. These two mechanics don't make any sense next to each: Taking 20 on a check is literally meant to model retrying it over and over again until you get a 20. Plus, I just don't understand the reason behind raising the DC with each check. I think you're trying to prevent people from trying the check over and over again, but since you already let them take 20 I don't understand what you're trying to accomplish. Suggestion 1: You can't take 20 when using a library, but you can take 10. Suggestion 2: Using a library allows you to retry a Knowledge check you'd previously failed, even if that Knowledge check was made with the assistance of a different library (since every library has different resources, 'natch). Suggestion 3: If your research at a library is interrupted, you can go back to the library and continue your research. You use the same roll you got on your original Knowledge check using the library, but you use the new bonus resulting from continuing your research. Alternatively: You get one roll on any given Knowledge check. Once you've made that check, you're stuck with the roll -- but you can use libraries to increase the bonus to that original roll. Each additional library after the library with the highest collection bonus adds a +2 circumstance bonus, regardless of the size of the library (but using multiple libraries cannot do more than double the bonus of the largest library you used). Suggestion 4: If you gain ranks in a Knowledge skill, you can retry your research check at any library, but you have to spend the time doing the research again (your new and deeper insight into the subject may give you a deeper insight into correlating the library's resources). Justin Alexander http://www.thealexandrian.net
JustinA 02-21-07, 06:40 PM	Take a look at the Research skill from D20 Modern. The concept is quite good, but I think the times are much longer than they need to be. There's a couple of reasons I don't like the Research skill: 1. There's no clear distinction between what requires a Knowledge check and what requires a Research check. There seems to be kind of a murky Venn diagram there: Finding the blueprints of a specific building would probably be a Knowledge (local) check with a ridiculously high DC (who memorizes he blueprints for every building in a large city?), but a Research check with an extremely low DC (go to the local government office, pay the fee, walk out with the blueprint). 2. It's interesting to have the distinction between what you know (Knowledge) and what you can look up (Research), but shouldn't what you know have some impact on what you can look up? I think you're generally better off ditching the Research skill and using a Knowledge check for it. Not sure what to do with the situation where there's a specific piece of information which only an expert would know off the top of their head, but research would trivially turn up -- but that's probably surmountable.
Darth Sephiroth 02-21-07, 08:58 PM	I think libraries are pretty well covered in Stronghold Builders guide. Using them grants bonus' to various skill checks.
JustinA 02-22-07, 01:48 AM	I think libraries are pretty well covered in Stronghold Builders guide. Using them grants bonus' to various skill checks. Those rules aren't a bad start (and seem to be the basis of the rules suggested here). But those rules don't cover some obvious questions: 1. Does going to a research library allow you to retry a Knowledge check you failed? If not, why not? If so, how many times can you retry it? Can you retry it at different libraries? If not, why not? 2. How long does it take to use a library? A standard Knowledge check requires absolutely no action at all (it's not even a free action, it's no action). Obviously you shouldn't be able to walk through the doors of a library, make the Knowledge check, and then walk back out again. But how long does it take to do research? Does it depend on the size of the library/bonus? I would say that those are the two big questions that you need answers to, because they're the types of questions that players are going to ask you as a DM. Obviously you can just make the answers up on the fly -- but that's true of any rule. There are also minor things that it would be nice to have answers to. Some of those have already been suggested in this thread. I'm sure there are probably others.
Boraxe 02-22-07, 10:28 AM	Well, I'm totally ignorant when it comes to D20 Modern, but medieval libraries were not like today's libraries and databases and internet... They don't have a librarian to aid you, and the medieval books and tomes and codexes... each one of them could take days by itself! Have you ever visited a medieval library? If you see the one here in Barcelona, you'll understand what I mean... Also, the example libraries were the largest of the bunch, "la creme de la creme" of my campaign world... more modest libraries give lesser skill bonuses, but the time needed to peruse them is much less too. Yes, but D&D isn't the real world in the middle ages. In a world where literacy is commonplace, libraries tend to be more organized. I like the idea but I think you are making it more difficult than it needs to be. The study time is punitively long, and this also doesn't account for the time and expense that may be required just to get to the library to start with. Really, it'd be much quicker and easier to just get a potion of Fox's Cunning, say, for much the same result. I'd either cut the research times by as much as 1/3 or I'd have research assistants in the library that can be hired to aid your task. Each assistant working for you either knocks two days off the total time required or adds a +1 to your check. No more than 3 assistants can work for you at any one time, the number baing based on the size of the library. I'd probably set their rate at 3-5 gp per day but there are limited number available so if several people want to hire them then the rate may rise. Hope this helps. Cheers.