Lookin for Suggestions on some monk changes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Lookin for Suggestions on some monk changes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zack2216
04-22-06, 03:47 AM Hey guys, I was wondering if you guys could help me balance some of the ideas that have been floating in my head for a while. Some of the monks abilities don't sit well with me and don't really give the monk class the feal I want it to have. I want the monk to be more customizable, and while that can be done with feats, I don't feel that any of the wizards books makes that customizability available. None of it has that true Kung Fu spirit (especially the weapon proficiencies). And some of those weapons I just don't see how they justified making them exotic, outside of flavor, because mechanically, why would you choose a kama (light exotic weapon, 1d6 x2) over a short sword (light martial weapon, 1d6, 19-20 x2), especially if the kama require an exotic weapon proficiency feat (I don't think the ability to trip with a small weapon is worth 2 damage upgrades, where you see for other weapons it only costs 1). However, my weapon gripes are my own. I have read through Quintessential monk (but not the second) and have found that it really adds deapth and flavor in a direction that I really like, but it doesn't quite do enough for me.

A couple ideas-
From my experiences, monks train in a far greater variety of weapons than what weapons the monk initially has proficiency with. So, I was thinking, how would I give characters the same feal, but maintain game balance. And I came up with this: give starting monks no "grab bag" and let them choose say, 4 or 5 weapons to be proficient in. I was thinking maybe, 3 simple, 2 martial and 1 exotic from a list of predetermined weapons (spear, whip chain (quint. monk), scimitar (dao), falchion (pa'kua dao), rapier (chien- straight sword, except it does either slashing or piercing), battle axe (lei kwei axe), 3 sectional staff, quan dao (basically a glave with a shorter shaft and a longer blade, non reach weapon), etc. The list goes on. Also, weapons chosen in this manner are considered special monk weapons. It doesn't stop a monk from learning other weapon styles (and learning weapons on the list means that they can still be used as special monk weapons), it's just that giving them all of those proficiencies makes it unfair for other classes.

I was also thinking about changing (or replacing) a couple of the class features. Namely, slow fall, wholeness of body, abundent step, quivering palm, tongue of the sun and moon (to a lesser degree), and empty body.

Slow fall- it's a cool ability, and I'm sure it has come in handy for some, but to me it doesn't quite fit in. I was thinking about cutting the progression in half, basically cutting out every other increase to slow fall, coming to 50 ft. at lvl 16.

Wholeness of body- the monk can heal herself 2hp/monk level per day. Now to me, there is little difference between d8 hp and can heal 2hp/level vs. d10 hp. Granted, the d10's have effect from lvl 1, but down the road when you can heal that damage as a free action it makes no difference. To me it just seems like a filler ability. (want to dump and replace)

Abundent step- I understand that it helps monks out with there "mageslayer" role, but if you're fighting casters, and you tele as a standard action, what's stopping the caster, on his turn from taking a 5 ft. step out of your reach and teleporting to another location? Then again, it make also make a handy survival tool, the ability to teleport away some 600 ft. when you first gain the ability can save your life. However, it doesn't fit into the kung fu genra very well for me. (want to dump and replace)

Quivering Palm- A once a week finger of death. Ya, you can kill them later, maybe even use it as a bargaining tool "if you don't tell me what I want to know, you will die instantly." However, I'm not fealing it. Yes, instant death moves and death points do exist in martial arts, but they were never limited to 1/week abilities. Then again, death touch at will is broken, so from a balance standpoint I can understand the reasoning. However, once again, I don't think it fits in. (want to dump and replace)

Tongue of the Sun and Moon- the ability to communicate with any sentient creature. A utility ability reproduced by a 3rd level spell arcane spell. I'm not saying that we should dump it or anything, but it doesn't fit into the monk feal, and by that level can be duplicated by a magical item for at most 18k gold, which is chump change anyway. I wouldn't know what to replace it with, however.

Empty body- 1 round/monk level of etherealness. Out-of-body experiences through meditation are not unheard of, but once again this doesn't really fit in with my idea of the "warrior monk." (want to dump and replace)

Considering that's what I want to remove/change, I'm not quite sure what would make suitable and balanced replacements for the above abilites.

One of the things I had in mind was increasing the damage the monk deals with the special monk weapons he is proficient with. Maybe grant him an ability that modifies the base damage of the weapon but keeping the crit range and mod unchanged. I was thinking along the lines of "all monk weapons that you are proficient with either deal base damage equal to your monk level -5, or their normal damage, whichever is higher." Why -5? because that means the weapons are two fist damage upgrades behind your normal unarmed damage, which means that at level 20, your fists are still doin 2d10, while your monk weapons are doin at most 2d6 (if you're medium and all that). Maybe even improve it at later levels or something, or a feat that improves your effective monk level when determining armed damage. Granted, 1/2 monk level works too, and may work out better in the end. But we'll determine that later in the discussion. Also, I really like this ability, and I think it would be cool if we could work it in some how.

Another idea I was thinking about (but not set on) was competence bonuses to various monk skills, like jump, balance, tumble, and concentration. Or, offer additional actions for succeeding on different skill checks, like kip up for good tumble, use concentration to allow for accelerated subdual recovery through meditation, stuff like that.

I was also thinking about giving monks dr similar to that of a barbarian, representing a monks iron body training, but to a lesser degree (like 2/- by level 19, and improve that to 5/- at 20 when the monk gets perfect body)

Anyway, these are just ideas, and I was hoping to get opinions on them, viable options from other kung fu fans, more. Thanks in advance.
SilvercatMoonpaw
04-22-06, 10:24 AM Another idea I was thinking about (but not set on) was competence bonuses to various monk skills, like jump, balance, tumble, and concentration. Or, offer additional actions for succeeding on different skill checks, like kip up for good tumble, use concentration to allow for accelerated subdual recovery through meditation, stuff like that.
This sounds really cool. If you want to try and keep it balanced, look at classes such as the Complete Adventurer ninja that grant bonuses to skills as class abilities. One thing I've thought of to replicate the feel of all the Xiaolin movies is to give monks access to Psionic feats. For only a DC 20 (or maybe less, I can't remember at the moment) check you can expend it to get a +10 to your jumps or run up walls.
I was also thinking about giving monks dr similar to that of a barbarian, representing a monks iron body training, but to a lesser degree (like 2/- by level 19, and improve that to 5/- at 20 when the monk gets perfect body)
This was done in Unearthed Arcana (and here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monk) ) but for giving up the speed and AC bonuses. I'm guessing that's not what you want, but it might help you.

Also, if you can, try and find the class description for the Oathsworn from Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved. It has a lot of monk-type abilities plus is gains increasing ability to resist damage and ignore needs such as food, which makes it more like what a monk searching for enlightenment by separation from the material world is.
Verelor
04-22-06, 10:34 AM Well, I have great news for you. :)

Either of these links below provide you with a wonderful variant monk that solves everything you were talking about.

http://wakinglands.com/htm_files/the_classes_page.htm

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=169347
Zack2216
04-22-06, 10:37 PM Thanks for the reply's, I really like that "ultimate monk" class, that's pretty much what I was looking for. Thanks again guys.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zack2216 04-22-06, 03:47 AM	Hey guys, I was wondering if you guys could help me balance some of the ideas that have been floating in my head for a while. Some of the monks abilities don't sit well with me and don't really give the monk class the feal I want it to have. I want the monk to be more customizable, and while that can be done with feats, I don't feel that any of the wizards books makes that customizability available. None of it has that true Kung Fu spirit (especially the weapon proficiencies). And some of those weapons I just don't see how they justified making them exotic, outside of flavor, because mechanically, why would you choose a kama (light exotic weapon, 1d6 x2) over a short sword (light martial weapon, 1d6, 19-20 x2), especially if the kama require an exotic weapon proficiency feat (I don't think the ability to trip with a small weapon is worth 2 damage upgrades, where you see for other weapons it only costs 1). However, my weapon gripes are my own. I have read through Quintessential monk (but not the second) and have found that it really adds deapth and flavor in a direction that I really like, but it doesn't quite do enough for me. A couple ideas- From my experiences, monks train in a far greater variety of weapons than what weapons the monk initially has proficiency with. So, I was thinking, how would I give characters the same feal, but maintain game balance. And I came up with this: give starting monks no "grab bag" and let them choose say, 4 or 5 weapons to be proficient in. I was thinking maybe, 3 simple, 2 martial and 1 exotic from a list of predetermined weapons (spear, whip chain (quint. monk), scimitar (dao), falchion (pa'kua dao), rapier (chien- straight sword, except it does either slashing or piercing), battle axe (lei kwei axe), 3 sectional staff, quan dao (basically a glave with a shorter shaft and a longer blade, non reach weapon), etc. The list goes on. Also, weapons chosen in this manner are considered special monk weapons. It doesn't stop a monk from learning other weapon styles (and learning weapons on the list means that they can still be used as special monk weapons), it's just that giving them all of those proficiencies makes it unfair for other classes. I was also thinking about changing (or replacing) a couple of the class features. Namely, slow fall, wholeness of body, abundent step, quivering palm, tongue of the sun and moon (to a lesser degree), and empty body. Slow fall- it's a cool ability, and I'm sure it has come in handy for some, but to me it doesn't quite fit in. I was thinking about cutting the progression in half, basically cutting out every other increase to slow fall, coming to 50 ft. at lvl 16. Wholeness of body- the monk can heal herself 2hp/monk level per day. Now to me, there is little difference between d8 hp and can heal 2hp/level vs. d10 hp. Granted, the d10's have effect from lvl 1, but down the road when you can heal that damage as a free action it makes no difference. To me it just seems like a filler ability. (want to dump and replace) Abundent step- I understand that it helps monks out with there "mageslayer" role, but if you're fighting casters, and you tele as a standard action, what's stopping the caster, on his turn from taking a 5 ft. step out of your reach and teleporting to another location? Then again, it make also make a handy survival tool, the ability to teleport away some 600 ft. when you first gain the ability can save your life. However, it doesn't fit into the kung fu genra very well for me. (want to dump and replace) Quivering Palm- A once a week finger of death. Ya, you can kill them later, maybe even use it as a bargaining tool "if you don't tell me what I want to know, you will die instantly." However, I'm not fealing it. Yes, instant death moves and death points do exist in martial arts, but they were never limited to 1/week abilities. Then again, death touch at will is broken, so from a balance standpoint I can understand the reasoning. However, once again, I don't think it fits in. (want to dump and replace) Tongue of the Sun and Moon- the ability to communicate with any sentient creature. A utility ability reproduced by a 3rd level spell arcane spell. I'm not saying that we should dump it or anything, but it doesn't fit into the monk feal, and by that level can be duplicated by a magical item for at most 18k gold, which is chump change anyway. I wouldn't know what to replace it with, however. Empty body- 1 round/monk level of etherealness. Out-of-body experiences through meditation are not unheard of, but once again this doesn't really fit in with my idea of the "warrior monk." (want to dump and replace) Considering that's what I want to remove/change, I'm not quite sure what would make suitable and balanced replacements for the above abilites. One of the things I had in mind was increasing the damage the monk deals with the special monk weapons he is proficient with. Maybe grant him an ability that modifies the base damage of the weapon but keeping the crit range and mod unchanged. I was thinking along the lines of "all monk weapons that you are proficient with either deal base damage equal to your monk level -5, or their normal damage, whichever is higher." Why -5? because that means the weapons are two fist damage upgrades behind your normal unarmed damage, which means that at level 20, your fists are still doin 2d10, while your monk weapons are doin at most 2d6 (if you're medium and all that). Maybe even improve it at later levels or something, or a feat that improves your effective monk level when determining armed damage. Granted, 1/2 monk level works too, and may work out better in the end. But we'll determine that later in the discussion. Also, I really like this ability, and I think it would be cool if we could work it in some how. Another idea I was thinking about (but not set on) was competence bonuses to various monk skills, like jump, balance, tumble, and concentration. Or, offer additional actions for succeeding on different skill checks, like kip up for good tumble, use concentration to allow for accelerated subdual recovery through meditation, stuff like that. I was also thinking about giving monks dr similar to that of a barbarian, representing a monks iron body training, but to a lesser degree (like 2/- by level 19, and improve that to 5/- at 20 when the monk gets perfect body) Anyway, these are just ideas, and I was hoping to get opinions on them, viable options from other kung fu fans, more. Thanks in advance.
SilvercatMoonpaw 04-22-06, 10:24 AM	Another idea I was thinking about (but not set on) was competence bonuses to various monk skills, like jump, balance, tumble, and concentration. Or, offer additional actions for succeeding on different skill checks, like kip up for good tumble, use concentration to allow for accelerated subdual recovery through meditation, stuff like that. This sounds really cool. If you want to try and keep it balanced, look at classes such as the Complete Adventurer ninja that grant bonuses to skills as class abilities. One thing I've thought of to replicate the feel of all the Xiaolin movies is to give monks access to Psionic feats. For only a DC 20 (or maybe less, I can't remember at the moment) check you can expend it to get a +10 to your jumps or run up walls. I was also thinking about giving monks dr similar to that of a barbarian, representing a monks iron body training, but to a lesser degree (like 2/- by level 19, and improve that to 5/- at 20 when the monk gets perfect body) This was done in Unearthed Arcana (and here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monk) ) but for giving up the speed and AC bonuses. I'm guessing that's not what you want, but it might help you. Also, if you can, try and find the class description for the Oathsworn from Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved. It has a lot of monk-type abilities plus is gains increasing ability to resist damage and ignore needs such as food, which makes it more like what a monk searching for enlightenment by separation from the material world is.
Verelor 04-22-06, 10:34 AM	Well, I have great news for you. :) Either of these links below provide you with a wonderful variant monk that solves everything you were talking about. http://wakinglands.com/htm_files/the_classes_page.htm http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=169347
Zack2216 04-22-06, 10:37 PM	Thanks for the reply's, I really like that "ultimate monk" class, that's pretty much what I was looking for. Thanks again guys.