Post/Author/DateTime	Post
njdemke 02-20-08, 02:16 PM	I like the idea of being able to choose a system in D&D that is less item dependent than VOP. However, I dislike VOP for a couple of reasons. One problem with the concept of wealth as a defining feature of power by level is that if an NPC captures a PC, the NPC’s power catapults because it now exceeds NPC wealth by level guidelines. At the same time the PC plummets in power. If power was not based so much on wealth, than being captured would not be such a death sentence. In my opinion, this would give the DM and PCs more options in any given encounter because PCs would be more willing to give and grant quarter to defeated enemies. A larger problem with wealth and power being intertwined is the difficulty DMs have of choosing the right monsters to send at PCs. If you send mobs with not enough wealth than your PCs will be unprepared for future challenges. However, if you make the mistake of choosing mobs with too much wealth than future challenges become too easy. This leads to D&D creating arbitrary magic items that are powerful in the hands of NPCs but are worthless in the hands of PCs. An example of this would be drow armor and drow weapons. To navigate the difficult terrain of appropriate gear per encounter and per level requires a knowledgeable DM who is aware of all the different splat books containing items and how they can be utilized and abused. A third problem of power being dependent on wealth is that it perpetuates the superiority of greed and bloodthirstiness over other virtues. If you don’t loot everything you can you are limiting your power. Although you get equal EXP for overcoming an obstacle without killing it (for example by forcing the enemy to retreat) you end up with less power since you can’t loot the corpse. It gets worse when a DM chooses to spend some of the money that NPCs get to buy items to buy grafts. Are PCs expected to take these mobs prisoners and bring them back to have the grafts surgically removed? If a character decides to be merciful and allow a defeated enemy to keep its mount and armor, the PC is less powerful and thus less likely to survive future battles. I don’t see any reason to punish altruistic behavior on the part of the PCs. I will admit that items are a fun reward for PCs to look forward to after a battle. However, I feel that at the moment the focus is too much on magical items and not on heroic characters. One option that D&D has created for DMs who wish to eliminate the problems with item dependency is the Vow of Poverty (VOP). However, the VOP is restricted to exalted characters and costs two feats. I don’t like the idea of requiring feats to buy options that grant flexibility for players. For example, power attack and combat expertise should be in my opinion free options available to all characters. Perhaps with a feat a character could get access to an improved version of these two feats but why make it difficult for all players to get access to these two feats. These two feats grant players more options during combat and make the game more fun to play. As it now stands very few players can take advantage of VOP because of the alignment requirements and because of feat requirements. An alternative should exist for all characters that wish to be less dependent on wealth per level. At the same time the alternative should be a viable alternative to VOP for many classes not just druid or monk. Another problem with VOP is that the abilities it grants are all hardwired and very inflexible. I won’t get into the argument that VOP is underpowered because I realize a few people don’t agree with this assessment. However, everyone should recognize that there is a huge loss in flexibility when using VOP. One of the strengths of a wizard is the huge flexibility it has to customize its power each new day. I am interested in an alternative variety to VOP that has a lot more options and can be customized by many classes and made optimal. Right now monks and druids get far more out of VOP than other classes. At high levels VOP is a death sentence to noncasters since it does not offer an option for flight or teleport. I have been thinking of alternative solutions to power =wealth paradigm that improve upon VOP. The main idea is divided into two parts. However, before I get into the two parts let me describe how the new method would mesh with current rules. First this option would be restricted to PCs. NPCs could still be outfitted by wealth per level rules with appropriate magic items. Any attribute that an item granted an NPC would be assumed to be inherent to the NPC and not inherent to the item. For example, a right of flight would grant flight by creating wings that could propel the creature. A creature with a +5 weapon would simply be more accurate and hit harder with all weapons. Any magical item that granted a supernatural ability to a creature that didn’t make sense to the DM would be unavailable to the creature. A 50,000 gold piece +5 sword would still cost 50,000 gold pieces if the NPC is defeated but it would not grant +5 bonuses to the PCs. The item would cost 50,000 gold pieces because it was made or exotic material and was very ornate. The money could be used by the PCs to buy castles, temples, exotic mounts, appropriate lairs for dragon cohorts, equipment for cohorts and personal armies, election fraud, and other fun fluff that in most cases does not increase the power level of the PCs. I never liked the fluff behind VOP requiring characters to give up money in order to gain power. Mother Teresa did not become more powerful just because she took a vow of poverty. If you do a good deed in order to get rewarded it isn't really altruistic anymore. Any new system that decreases item dependency should grant the same bonuses to a character willing to give up all gold as to one who desires to horde it obsessively. No matter if a DM gave huge cash per encounter or low cash per encounter a party’s power would remain the same. This would mean that new DMs would be less likely to accidentally nerf or buff the party to much with item drops. However, all fantasy worlds have relied on a few powerful magical items to increase the power level of the characters. In the system I would like to see made, characters would each be able to own and use one magical item that was worth 25% of the recommended wealth by level or two magical items that were worth 10% each. These items could be gifts from the gods, artifacts lost through the ages, epic items crafted through personal sacrifice (i.e. according to crafting rules) or any other method the DM chose to use. None of these items could be simply bought at a store since stores would not sell any magical items other than perhaps potions and scrolls as decided by the DM. Each item would require permission to gain from the DM. At each level a character could sacrifice his current item and get another more powerful item or simply increase the bonuses the original item already possessed. If a party found a dragon horde, with one trillion gold in treasure, it would not increase the power of the magic items allowed per person not would it hurt the characters if they fought purely ethereal creatures that had no wealth at all. The first part of this new system of itemless power would be a new progression each level that included, natural armor bonuses, deflection bonuses, saving throw bonuses, attribute bonuses, and weapon and armor enhancements. I would make most of these abilities to be Extraordinary. Just think about the increased flexibility that would occur if a warrior received weapon enhancements on every weapon he picked up rather than on only one weapon he could afford to enchant. As it is right now if a warrior wants to be able to use a ranged weapon, a melee weapon, and a reach weapon while mounted, he must sacrifice his fighting ability with all three. The specialist is king in D&D. Also sunder weapon, targeted dispels and Mordenkain’s disjunction become much less painful if the item destroyed wasn’t magical. Perhaps the bonus to hit such as +5 weapon would be extraordinary and special abilities such as ghost touch would be supernatural. To me, it would be more fun, if a warrior were able to pull out a spoon after his main weapon were ruined and still put out a beating. This new progression could either match the similar abilities granted by VOP, if a DM thought that they were the right power level, or tweaked to be either stronger or weaker depending on the campaign. The second part of an alternative VOP would be a select number of rituals performed that would grant supernatural abilities to any character who pays the price of the ritual. The rituals would be similar to the rituals performed in Weapons of legacy, i.e. the ritual would grant various powers that depended on perhaps ECL, BAB, skill levels, or spells and would require some sacrifice in order to gain. For example, a sample ritual might grant blind fighting at low levels, blind sense at mid levels, tremor sense at higher levels, and blind sight at the highest levels. Naturally casters and noncasters would have separate costs required to gain the same ritual. Sample abilities granted by rituals might be as weak as increased dark vision range to something as powerful as a free graft regardless of price. VOP gave some useful abilities such as true seeing, yet it was in my opinion to little and too regimented. In my opinion abilities that grant perception and increased movement options are a necessity at higher levels. However, perhaps some player wants to role-play a barbarian that has to rely on other party members or rely on a mount when flying creatures are encountered and gain other bonuses in the place of flight. In my opinion generally it is important to have multiple options each level. However, with the current system in place, characters have too many choices available in terms of magic items to buy. And unfortunately most magic items are a waste of money and should never be bought. So the magic item choices increase complexity of creating a character but do not contribute to creating meaningful choices for a character to choose. VOP on the other hand gives no options and is not customizable for different priorities. I have written lots of different rituals but I am curious if anyone else has written an alternative to VOP that is similar in scope to mine. No reason for me to try to recreate the wheel if it is already created. I really liked the feat fixes that K and Otto Bugbear wrote and realize that many people have spent a lot of energy and creativity to fix problems with D&D. Also the last three responses I have written have received no feedback so I do not wish to spend too much time outlining a plan to create a new VOP if no one is going to read my response.
Sinfire Titan 02-20-08, 07:07 PM	Just play Gestalt and force one half of it to be either Incarnate, Soulborn, or Totemist, and prevent them from swapping those sides out. This reduces their dependency on items by about 70%. And it goes well with VoP, so if someone wants to play a VoP character, they get extra bonuses.
sblaxman 02-21-08, 12:46 AM	Item dependancy is a major problem that was created in 3e... back in 2e, a +3 sword that did +2 fire damage was a good weapon, now weapons that don't do +3d6 are considered weak. It's hard to work around if you use the 3e XP leveling, wealth guidelines, CR rating, etc, since they are are hardwired into an expected equipment amount per level
njdemke 02-21-08, 02:56 AM	I own Iron Heroes which does a fine job at eliminating magic items and magic users but it is so unique that it can't be introduced into a normal D&D game. Although I would love to play a campaign based off of its rules I have not found any one willing to play such a campaign. So I was hoping someone had created a house rule that created a simple set of rules to use that would be compatable with normal rules. However, as mentioned item dependency is built into 3rd edition. To make things worse there is a huge disparity between casters and non casters in 3rd edition that also needs to be fixed. Perhaps a simple solution is not possible. I hope 4th edition has less item dependency. I would love to see more focus on the character and not the items. However, splat books with new items sell books.
Cranewings 02-21-08, 10:35 AM	Why can't the GM just make magical item creation more difficult. A magical sword or armor should be forged completely by the mage. making it unlikely that a mage will know how to do it. Other items could require weeks to months of constant work and require high magical components. Then in game, reduce the number of aquired magical items to 1 permenent and 2-3 expendable 1 shot items per 3 character levels per player. The items you give should have a story and a function instead of a power gaming stat increase. That is how I'm running my game.
sblaxman 02-21-08, 10:53 AM	One problem with that concept, though it may work for some, is that if you are running wealth levels or CR ratings by the books, then non spell casters become severely underpowered, due to their classes being more dependant on the items they carry. By making them less likely to have magic items you are making an even larger power gap. I don't think the problem is the availability of magic items as much as the built in dependancy on them. Personally, I completely ignore the character wealth per level, CR rating for encounters, and such, it's easier for me to simply make a campaign as I see fit and determine on my own what a proper encounter would be. For someone with a lot less experience GMing, this might not be as easy though, and many people play pretty close to the CR-rating system as RAW.
Cranewings 02-21-08, 11:27 AM	sblaxman, I completely agree. I run mine the same way.
njdemke 02-21-08, 05:16 PM	Well I am going to outline the alternative VOP that I have decided to use in my game. Weapon enhancements and special abilities and armor enhancements and special abilites apply to any weapon or armor the character uses. Cloth armor would have an armor score of 0 and would count as unarmored but would allow armor enhancements and special abilities. Enhancements would be limited to plus five and special abilies could only be added to items with an enhancement of at least plus one. This would mean that low dex light or no armor using characters would receive less benefit to their armor as plate wearing users. And people wouldn't complain about VOP's epic bracers of armor. Starting at level five and every two levels afterwards a character would gain a plus one to weapon abilities that can be used to by enhancemnts or special abilities. At level 19 the bonus would be a total of plus 8. Starting at level 2 and every three levels afterwards a character would gain a plus one to armor abilities which could be used to buy armor enhancements or special abilities. At level 20 the bonus would be a total of plus 7. This weapon enhancement is far superior to VOP which only grants a total of plus five to a weapon with no options of taking special abilities. If a DM thought it was too powerful, he could instead start at level five and give a bonus every three levels instead of every two levels which would limit the total bonus to plus 6. The character would still have the flexibility to choose either enhancements or special abilities. My system's armor bonuses are a lot less expensive and more flexible than VOPs since you can use the plus one as an enhancement or as a special ability. Saving throw bonuses will have good average and poor scores. The three scores will be like bab +1/level, 3/4 / level, or 1/2 / level. Although this gives plus 20 to good saves this is not much different than a character that muliclasses once or twice. For example, a barbarian, with a two level dip in fighter, that takes the berserker prestige and has a plus five resistance item would have a fort save of 21. Characters would choose a save that is currently poor and make it average instead. AC bonuses from natural armor and deflection would be received similar to VOP. Starting at sixth level and every fourth level a character would gain a plus one bonus to natural armor and deflection. At level 18 this would be a plus four bonus. This is one bonus higher than given by VOP. However, the armor bonus given by armor enhancements is less than the armor bonus given by VOP and my option is much less expensive. Ability bonuses from VOP are +8,+6,+4,+2. Instead I would give an enhancement ability bonus every level starting with third level for a total of plus 18 that could be divided up so that no ability received more than 1/3 of the bonuses received so far. For example after receiving 12 points a character would finally be eligible for a plus four enhancement bonus to any stat, after receiving 15, a plus five enhancement bonus to any stat, etc. Also at level 16-21 characters would be eligible to receive plus one inherent bonuses. Thus a character could get a total of plus five to any one stat or divide the bonuses between different stats. Finally each character would be able to gain at least one item that was worth 25% of wealth per level guidelines or 2 items that were each 10% of wealth per level guidelines. Adding this to the above total gives 710,000 gold pieces. If the DM wanted to weaken this arrangement he could give weapon bonuses every third level instead of every other level, change the ability enhancement bonuses to a maximum of one fourth bonuses received could be placed in one stat (this would result in a plus four max instead of a plus six max at level 20) and get rid of inherent bonuses. This would cut the cost down to 480,000 gold. The reason a DM might want to cut the gold down would be to give alternative abilities as rituals to a character that wanted to choose their own abilities, just as the VOP gave bonuses like sustenance and true seeing. In my campaign which allows characters access to templates like feral and saint which are high powered I add the following to VOP. However, I apply the following to all non casters regardless of whether they take VOP or not. My reasoning behind it is to hopefully limit dipping and decrease the gap between casters and non casters. I give SR = ECL +10, one feat at level one and every even level afterwards. At character creation one free skill that is forever maxed out at each level without spending any skill points on it. The skill must be approved by the DM and must fit the character's background. I.E. no tumbling skill for character who plans to use heavy armor. Wings at level 18 that grant flight 60 good maneuverability as an extraordinary ability which are either celestial, draconic, or demonic depending on whether the character is good, neutral or evil. Armor costs four times as much to build. Characters can not wear medium or heavy armor or be medium or heavy encumbered. (this seems very late in my mind to be getting flight, but favored souls don't get a similar ability till 17th and it isn't till level 18 that a character receives 100,000 gold per level increase in wealth allowed. Draconic wing grafts cost 100,000 gold. In the feats that I give I limit the type of feats that can be chosen. For example, I require five feats starting at level two and every four levels to be chosen from either Perception 1 feat tree or Perception 2 feat tree. The first feat tree at level 5 grants Blind sight 240 feet and the second feat tree grants Tree Seeing 240 feet. The other six feats must be chosen from class features that have been turned into feats. I stole this idea from Tequila_Sunrise. For example rather than take evasion by dipping into rogue or monk the character could choose evasion as one of the six feats he gets as part of his alternate VOP. Class features that would be available as feats are class features that are granted by the first four levels of a base class or the first two levels of a prestige class. Spell casting, psionic abilities, invocations, infusions, incarnum, and maneuvers would be ineligible for feats. All class abilities would need to be approved by DM. Abilities that do not fit character archetype would not be allowed. For example, a sneaky rogue might be ineligible for fear immunity from Paladin class features. Imagine a fighter that chooses rage as an class feature eligible as a bonus feat. His rage would not increase in strength nor would he gain extra uses of the power per day. However, in addition a character can choose feats that relate to a class ability. For example, if a character chooses rage as a class feat, he would be eligible for extra rage feat.