Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bielmic 11-02-06, 01:09 AM	i've been running a pretty standard 3.5 FR campaign for the past 10 months and am tiring of some of the aspects of magic. basically, magic items seem too powerful and most of the cool stuff the pc's do in the game is based off of magic items. after rewatching this year some fantasy classics (LOTR, conan, beastmaster), it seems that the magic gear and powers are two powerful. i'm interested in running a low magic and treasure campaign and was wondering if there are any guidelines for this already published. my current ideas involve starting players at 1/5th the recommended GP and not allowing an nonpermanent magic items for general sale. in addition, i'll be limiting primary spellcasters to prestige classes only (ie. no wizards/sorcs but allow magic using prestige classes). obviously, the entry restrictions to prestige classes will have to be eased to make this work. for nonprimary casters like rangers and paladins, i'll probably subtract 1 from the spells per day of each slot to limit their progression. in addition, all spell-like abilities will be cast at half their printed caster level (and if this makes them illegal to cast then they are not available such as a caster level of 2 for a spell like ability of lightning bolt). to balance this, the above rules will apply to monsters. in addition, all spell resistance, elemental resistance, regen/fast healing, and magic DR will be divided by 5. finally, all creatures (npcs and pcs) will get 2 extra skill points per HD and a feat progression of 1st level, 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, etc. basically, i'm trying to bring the game to a more feat and skill oriented adventure as opposed to magic/item based. i believe the iron heroes supplements do something similar to this but i can't bring myself to force the players to all buy the book for the conversion. any thoughts?
OneSidedDice 11-02-06, 02:25 AM	You might also consider shifting attribute bonuses to a more favorable progression, such as every three levels rather than every four. Also, adopting some kind of class-based defense bonus would probably be a good idea. Permanent magic items are frequently used to boost AC and attributes as well as attack bonuses, and mid- to high-CR monsters are rated to reflect this. Eliminating such magic items is going to deprive your PCs of these bonuses, which means they could find themselves swinging at an AC that's a few points too high to hit often enough, or fighting a monster that's attacking an AC that's 10 points too low (it's very easy to miss out on a lot of AC if you can't get rings of protection, amulets of natural armor, enchanted armor, enchanted shields, certain ioun stones, etc.). Another option is expanding the masterwork rules to be more similar to d20 Modern's, by offering more than just a +1 bonus. d20 Modern allows for masterworked items up to +3. You could also expand what masterworking an item can do for a character. This might be bringing things too close to the magic items you're trying to escape, but it could be possible to masterwork a sword to improve its threat range, or a suit of armor to improve its max Dex bonus. I think 1/5 recommended GP is too arbitrary. At low levels, your players are just going to be using their gold to buy mundane and masterwork gear, so cutting their available funds by 1/5 is just going to make low levels even less fun. At higher levels, without readily available permanent magic items, you can leave them with nothing but a few thousand gold and it won't really make a difference. I see finding things to spend money on getting to be a real problem. I'm assuming you meant that consumable magic items, such as potions, scrolls, and maybe wands, would still be available relatively commonly. Those items are pretty inexpensive compared to even vastly reduced funds of high-level adventurers, so I think you're going to get a lot of people just sitting on thousands of gold pieces with nothing to do with them, really. I think that really the whole reason high-level adventurers get such a hideous amount of gold is to spend it on magic items that are hideously expensive. Remove those items, and there's nothing in the game that's worth buying at that price level. Oh, and another thing that bears mentioning: Without easy access to divine healing, fights are going to become a lot scarier, and your PCs are going to need to rest more often between fights without a way to replenish hit points. Consider speeding the natural recovery process and/or adding some provision that allows PCs to convert lethal damage to nonlethal at a slow but significant rate, maybe.
Ghenesh 11-02-06, 04:21 AM	You might prefer a simpler solution, use the "Adept NPC Class" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/adept.htm) spellcasting progression as the base for all spellcasting classes, just add the extra bonus domain spell for cleric, add an extra spell per day for Sorcerers and fix their "Spells Known" table, etc. If you find this too harsh make your own Spells per Day table that doesn't get to nine or eight level spells at none epic levels, but grant extra spells of level 0 for a high ability modifier:Level Spells per Day 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 1st 2 0 — — — — — — 2nd 2 1 — — — — — — 3rd 2 1 — — — — — — 4th 2 2 0 — — — — — 5th 3 2 1 — — — — — 6th 3 2 1 — — — — — 7th 3 2 2 0 — — — — 8th 3 3 2 1 — — — — 9th 3 3 2 1 — — — — 10th 3 3 2 2 0 — — — 11th 4 3 3 2 1 — — — 12th 4 3 3 2 1 — — — 13th 4 3 3 2 2 0 — — 14th 4 4 3 3 2 1 — — 15th 4 4 3 3 2 1 — — 16th 4 4 3 3 2 2 0 — 17th 4 4 4 3 3 2 1 — 18th 4 4 4 3 3 2 1 — 19th 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 0 20th 5 4 4 4 3 3 2 1If you use this table, change all prereqs for prestige classes that demands fifth level spells for fourth level spell. Take out half casting progressions (Rangers, Paladins, Bards, etc). You might consider using the non-casting version of each class. Lower the Hit Die for every class to the next lower, except for Fighter, Ranger and Monk. Lower the Base Attack Bonus Progression and Base Save Bonus Progression for every class, without powerful magic items around, full BAB and good saves will get very cheesy. Change the classes with good BAB (Fighter, Barbarian, etc) to Medium BAB, and classes with Medium BAB to Bad BAB (Clerics, Druids, etc), leave The Monk and the classes with poor BAB as they are: Level Good Bad Good Bad BAB BAB Save Save 1st +0 +0 +1 +0 2nd +1 +1 +1 +1 3rd +2 +1 +2 +1 4th +3 +2 +2 +1 5th +3 +2 +3 +1 6th +4 +3 +3 +2 7th +5 +3 +4 +2 8th +6 +4 +4 +2 9th +6 +4 +5 +2 10th +7 +5 +5 +3 11th +8 +5 +6 +3 12th +9 +6 +6 +3 13th +9 +6 +7 +3 14th +10 +7 +7 +4 15th +11 +7 +8 +4 16th +12 +8 +8 +4 17th +12 +8 +9 +4 18th +13 +9 +9 +5 19th +14 +9 +10 +5 20th +15 +10 +10 +5If you use this table change all prerequisites for prestige classes that demands a BAB to a maximun of +7. Take out magical items creation feats. Limit Unarmed Strike Damage for Monks a bit and ways to get many attacks (Two Weapon Fighting, Flurry of Strikes, Rapidshot, Manyshot, etc) since it will get too good for dealing extra damage (like sneak attack). Lower skills points gained per level and increase the skill points at level one. Making all (4 + Int Mod) to (2 + Int Mod) like Druid or Monk, (6 + Int Mod) to (4 + Int Mod) like ranger or bard and (8 + Int Mod) to (6 + Int Mod) for rogue and scout, but give them 20 extra skill points at level 1. Leave clases with (2 + Int) Skill points per level as they are, but give them less bonus points at first level. This house rule diminishes min maxing. Give all characters an extra feat at level 1. Monsters will eat your party so you should increase their CR by 20% or so. Give your players some base HP for their characters, 10 is a good number, but make them roll their first hit die. All of the above are house rules you may apply to your low magic setting campaign, they are only suggestions so don't go flaming if you don't like them. By the way, excuse my crappy english, it's not my native language.
DIESCUMDIE 11-02-06, 05:32 AM	A fighter without his magic items is only half as powerful. I reccomend giving lots of other bonuses to stop players feeling underpowered and unintrested. Free feats, gestalt, free levels, VOP bonuses etc.
LycaonDarkmoon 11-02-06, 09:52 AM	I also recomend looking at the Injury, Class Defense and Armor as DR rules in Unearthed Arcana. I'm using all 3 (or variants thereof) in my Low Magic (perhaps Rare Magic would be more accurate) campaign. I also have variants of Paladin and Ranger without spellcasting that I'd be willing to post if you'd like to see them.
smileypete 11-02-06, 09:52 AM	If you want to do low magic, I strongly suggest using the d20 modern rules with a fantasy setting. This will make the game "hardcore". Also you cannot start as a spell caster in modern, last I checked.
bielmic 11-02-06, 12:10 PM	thanks for the great ideas. i've always thought of adding a defense bonus similar to the BAB since it seems like you should get better at attacking and defending with experience. the numbers (in my inexperienced opinion) in unearthed arcana seem too high, though. i think i might add a bonus equal to the reflex save for the class; you could use this with armor up to a total of the max dex allowed for the armor. that way, heavy armored troops still get a little but those who choose light armor get more. that should help with the ac deficit for players. also, i forgot about the usual attribute bonuses with magic items. you're right, i'll increase the natural attribute bonus to 1 every 3 levels. also, i'll start the players at 32pt buy instead of my regular 25pt. that should help with the attributes and hitting higher AC's too. as for amateur spellcasters, i think the nonspellcasting paladin and ranger variants are better too after taking a look at them. the starting GP was supposed to be 1/5 of the wealth by level in addition to starting gold. some of the wealth will be earned in earned GP and more in captured/acquired magic items (the primary way of getting them). basically, i want simple magic items to become the focus of powers and worthwhile again. think about how useful something as a ring of feather falling would be in medieval times for a thief; in current d&d, it's practially useless since you can just fly easily by 7th level. it may sound strange but i'd like to see PC's spending some of their riches on fine clothing and decorative additions to their armor like people really did. when was the last time someone saw a pc spend GP on full plate armor engravings just to make it look more impressive? in the end, i'm trying to keep a fantasy feel but make it grittier without making the players buy another book like d20 modern or iron heroes (one of them is a cheap miser!!). one of the other things i would do to make it grittier is to add penalties if your HP are low. if you're at less than half, you've got the penalties of fatigued; if you're at less than a quarter, you're exhausted. at 0, you can use an action, move action, or move 5ft (like in the movies, crawling on your belly!) finally, if you dip below 0, you'll take some ability damage (haven't decided the details yet) to delay the healing time. as for magic healing, there still will be divine healing although to a lesser extent because of the limiting of primary spell casters. all of this will also apply to the various monsters/npcs. one of the other problems i had was that it would never take a mage more than a week to heal completely from death's door (-9 hp) to full HP with nothing better than a small child to help him and some beef jerky/water. i don't mind if pc's adventure while wounded as it seems more realistic even in a fantasy setting. finally, i'll probably increase the EL of the encounters by 2 for xp and balance to account for all of the above. (ie.. a troll currently that is CR 5 will change to CR 7). in summary, 1/5 magic items and less primary spellcasting in return for feats every 2nd level, attribute points every 3rd, 32pt buy stats, 2 extra skill points per level, and a defense modifier to AC based on level. i'll take a look at the variant armor rules again in UA to see if i want to incorporate them.
Gwenfloor 11-02-06, 12:59 PM	I also recomend looking at the Injury, Class Defense and Armor as DR rules in Unearthed Arcana. I'm using all 3 (or variants thereof) in my Low Magic (perhaps Rare Magic would be more accurate) campaign. I also have variants of Paladin and Ranger without spellcasting that I'd be willing to post if you'd like to see them. Ooh, please post your Paladin and Ranger Variants!
kadeity 11-02-06, 02:00 PM	Ooh, please post your Paladin and Ranger Variants! they are from the book UnearthedArcana. Buy it. It is one of the best books ive ever bought.
OneSidedDice 11-02-06, 02:00 PM	i think i might add a bonus equal to the reflex save for the class; you could use this with armor up to a total of the max dex allowed for the armor. that way, heavy armored troops still get a little but those who choose light armor get more. that should help with the ac deficit for players. I think this is a really bad idea, unless armor provides a significant amount of DR. It makes the martial classes, with the exception of the ranger and the monk, worse at defending themselves in combat than a rogue or a bard, which really does not seem right to me. Limiting it to an armor's max Dex bonus just penalizes classes for having heavy armor proficiency, because a fighter strapping into full plate could get at best 10 AC from the armor (+8 armor +1 Dex +1 defense), whereas a relatively dexterous good Ref character will equal that by 6th level with 16 Dex in leather armor (+2 armor +3 Dex +5 Ref save), and it will only improve after that. If you're still using armor = AC, it really doesn't make sense for leather armor to offer more protection than full plate. I've never seen the defense progressions in UA, but I suspect you will find they're not too high in a low-magic world. With no way to boost their ACs other than armor and the very occasional magic item, these defense bonuses are going to become extremely important to characters in order to try to make up for the missing AC that would ordinarily be provided by magic. Also, if you're interested in incorporating aspects from d20 Modern, neither you nor your players will have to buy the book. You can use the d20 Modern SRD (http://www.12tomidnight.com/d20modernsrd/Home.php) to look up any information you'd like.
LycaonDarkmoon 11-02-06, 03:05 PM	Ooh, please post your Paladin and Ranger Variants! Mine actually differ from the variants in UA. Those were lacking a bit in power compared to what they lost by removing their spells. Here are my variants: Paladin (non-casting): -Skill points: Bump Paladin to 4+int/lvl skill points (Paladins are expected to venture forth into the world to fight for their God, therefore they should learn a bit more about how to function in society than someone who spends each and every day training in martial combat). -Bonus Feats: At levels 4, 8, 11, and 14 (the levels a Paladin is granted access to new spells) the Paladin may choose a Bonus Feat. -Divine Favor: Starting at level 4 a Paladin may cast Divine Favor on himself as a spell-like ability. The caster level of this ability is equal to 1/2 his Paladin level. This ability may be used once per day at level 4, and one additional time per day for ever 5 Paladin levels, to a maximum of 4 times/day at lvl 19. Ranger (non-casting): -Use Favored Environment (from Unearthed Arcana) instead of Favored Enemy. -Add additional Combat Style: Evasive Combat. Ranger gets Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack at lvls 2, 6 and 11. Same restrictions as other combat styles. Ranger can still have only 1 combat style. -Sneak attack: at level 2 a Ranger gets the sneak attack ability equivalent to a Rouge of 1/2 his/her Ranger level. This ability can be used only while the Ranger is wearing light armor. -Bonus Feats: At levels 4, 8, 11, and 14 (the levels a Ranger is granted access to new spells) the Ranger may choose a Bonus Feat. -Under the Class Defense rules (which I'm using) Rangers are in the same Defense Bonus progression table as Fighters and Paladins. -Rangers do not start the game proficent with Medium armor. Other abilities, such as Animal Companion, Special Mount, etc. are unchanged (yes I still allow Paladins to Lay on Hands and Turn Undead, you may consider removing these abilities and instead confining them to a Prestige Class like Divine Champion).
bielmic 11-02-06, 11:17 PM	@onesideddice: you're right; it would give to little to the traditional heavy fighter. i think i'll add half the BAB to the defense. also, i've been considering armor effects and i'll give light armor dr 1/- , medium 2/-, and heavy 3/-. the next game is tomorrow and i'll see how the players take all this. i'll put it up for a vote since this will be a big change to the system; the game, after all, isn't just for my enjoyment.
DIESCUMDIE 11-03-06, 05:29 AM	I normally think theres nothing wrong with house-ruling as much as you like, but what you are describing is so D20 modern I reccomend you take a look. Its free on the internet. It has a gritty damage threshhold, lots of skill use, defence bonus like bab, perfectly balanced classes without terrifying caster etc.
Gwenfloor 11-16-06, 03:45 PM	they are from the book UnearthedArcana. Buy it. It is one of the best books ive ever bought. I meant Lycaeon Darkmoon's
Voldar_Mecorthio 11-18-06, 11:08 PM	Here's an idea: Change all casting. Casting (arcane and divine) is crippled: 1st level spells count as 2nd, 2nds count as 4th, 3rds count as 6th, 4ths count as 8th. 0 level spells stay the same. For all feat and PrC requirements, convert levels of casting to caster level requirements, making it equal to the level he would have qualified as per normal casting rules. Thus, a 15th level wizard would just be able to cast 4th level spells. (4th level spells count as 8th level spells, and wizards gain 8th level spells at level 15) Spellcasters gain a few new class features: Sorcerer/Wizard: The new stuff makes them more combat focused, and lets them burn spell levels to do cool stuff. Hit Die d6, 3/4 bace attack bonus. 1: Light armor proficency, armored casting for light armor, martial weapon proficency in 3 weapons of wizard/sorcerer's choice. Magic Bolt, similar to warlock's eldrich blast. Unlimited use 60ft ranged touch attack that deals unnamed damage that increces over time. 1d6 at level 1, adds another d6 at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20. This cannot be metamagiced, but it can be Channeled (see Channel Magic), but the damage is reduced to d4s. 3: gain Improved Familiar as a bonus feat. Melt Spell: He may "melt" a spell slot of any level (0 level counts as 1/2) to gain virtual spell levels equal to double the level of the spell slot "melted". These virtual spell levels may be used to power metamagic feats and other abilities that are gained at later levels. 4: Magical Resistance: Gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against spells, spell-like or supernatural abilities. 5: Channel Magic: may take a move action to imbue a weapon with a spell as if it were a Spell Storing weapon. This may be done 3+key ability score modifier times per day. Enhance Bolt: Gain one Least invocation from the Warlock list, it must be an eldrich essence or eldrich shape one. Use just like warlocks. 6: Spell Familiarity: May select one spell per Int/Cha bonus on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list to become intimatly familiar with. He gains the ability to cast it 1/day as a spell like ability, and anytime he casts it acts as if under the Enlarge, Widen, or Extend spell metamagic feats. (caster chooses upon casting. Does not cost any melted spell slots or increcements in spell level) 7: Magical Healing: May use melted spell levels to heal himself or others. 1d6 per melted spell level. This is NOT positive energy, so it cannot harm undead. 8: Magical Resistance, gain spell resistance equal to 5+ caster level. 9: Aracane Substitution: use melted spell levels for costly material components or XP costs. 1 melted spell level equals 25 gp or 5 xp. 10: Arcane Smite: Use melted spell levels to smite an opponent. Gain a bonus to the attack roll of the next attack you make equal to the number of melted spell levels you use, and a bonus to damage equal to half that. Enhance Bolt: Gain one Lesser invocation, same limitations as above. 11: Superb Crafting or Superb Metamagic: Gain one of two abilities. Chose one, the decision may not be changed for any reason. (unless the DM is nice). Superb Crafting: All XP, GP, and time costs for crafting magic items are reduced by 25%. Superb Metamagic: Gain 8 melted spell levels every day, these stack with any gained through melt spell. 12: Magical Resistance: Bonus against spells increces to +4. Also gain resistance to one element of your choosing 10. 13: Cinimatic Arcana: May use 5 melted spell levels to gain 1 action point. For games that do not use action points, 5 melted spell levels give a +1d6 bonus on any skill check, attack roll, ability check, saving throw, or caster level check. (no other action point bonuses should be allowed in a no-AP game) 15: Enhance Bolt: Gain one Greater invocation, same limitations. 16: Magical Resistance: Choose a second element to gain resistance 10 against. 20: Enhance Bolt: Gain one Dark Invocation, same limitations. Godly Arcana: Gain the ability to work tremendous displays of magic. Select one 9th level spell from the sorcerer/wizard list, except wish. He may cast this as a spell like ability 2/day, and may gain another use of it by paying 18 melted spell levels. Clerics Like melted spell levels with wizards/sorcerers, the low magic cleric uses Turn Undead to power many special abilities. Turn Undead should NOT be 3+cha/day, it should be chax2/day, as turn undead is the raw "ammo" of the class. 1: Martial or Exotic Weapon Proficency with the deity's favored weapon. Divine Metamagic: May use Turn Undead to power metamagic, 1 use of turn undead provides 2 virtual spell levels. This may not be used in conjunction with Persistant Spell (to eliminate Divine Power cheese) 3: Holy Smite: Expend a turn undead to smite an opponent. +cleric level (or other class that gives turn undead) to attack roll, +Cha bonus to damage. 4: Holy Bolt: Expend a turn undead to fire a bolt of energy at an opponent. Your choice of 10ft radius, 20ft line, or 15ft cone, all with 30ft range, or a single target with 60ft range. Choose which effect upon using the ability. Damage is 2d6+2, and you can use multiple attempts to add 1d6+1 additional damage per additional attempt burned. Damage is untyped, and against undead it's maximized. 20: Divine Assention: Acend to a place of honor at your deity's court. You are no longer a humanoid (or whatever you were), you are a native outsider and gain all the benefits thereof. Pure Conduit: You gain the ability to work tremendous desplays of your deity's might. Choose one 9th level cleric spell except miracle. You may cast this 2/day, and may gain another use by burning 4 turn undeads. I don't really have very many ideas for clerics. If you like the idea, I'll make more cleric abilities and make a druid class. If not then I wasted a half-hour, but oh well.
Stev Beren 11-19-06, 07:58 AM	I am shocked that someone has managed to post somethign about a low magic campaign without getting flamed by the people that think its heresy. . BLink, blink, blinkblinkblink.
The_Levitator 11-21-06, 10:43 PM	Here are the things we've changed for our rare-magic world: Armor As Dr (including tracking physical damage to armor and shields Defense Opposed Roll Facing Variant Clobbered Variant All shields are +1 higher AC bonus Defense Bonus = BAB Arcane Spells +5% of failure Houserule that makes having multiple magical items on your person dangerous. Every magical item has a unique signature and bond in a sense to their owner, so magical items may have reactions when combined with the same owner (20% chance of a reaction). Magical items that react have one of three possible reactions: one of the item explodes doing 1d6 per 1000GP value of the item, 1 item releases its magical energy back to the Weave, or one item drains the magical energy of the other, rendering it non-magical while making itself more powerful. Arcane casters can detect magical auras of magical items (using Spellcraft DC=15 every 10 minutes), so they can tell well in advance if 2 items aren't going to "play nice" with each other. That gives them time to separate the items (reactions take 1 hr. per 1000GP value of the item) . Battle Fatigue: A houserule I created. At 75% of total HP, character has Light Battle Fatigue (-1 STR, -1 DEX). At 50% of total HP, character has Battle Fatigue (-2 STR, -2 DEX). At 25% of total HP, character has Heavy Battle Fatigue (-4 STR, -4DEX) Ability points at every 3 levels instead of every 4 levels. +4 skill points at 1st level. Overall, magic is pretty rare in our world. The average spellcaster peaks at 2nd-3rd level with very few ever going above 10th. There are no magic shops, but there are underground magic dealers. Magic is treated with much suspicion, with most commoners very distrustful of those who use it. Casting spells is a bit more random and we use the Wild Magic tables for ill effects. Many of the spells have some added consequences to limit their abuse. Invisibility is a good example. Basically, since you are basically moving through a parallel dimension it's very disorienting to come back. While invisible, you are totally fine. However, upon becoming visible, there is an adjustment period. You must make a Will save DC12 or be stunned for 1d10-level rounds. One thing I should mention is that all of this is scripted in my DM Genie so it is all tracked automatically (except for many of the custom spell consequences). I'm not sure how much of a pain this would all be to do manually, but I'm sure it wouldn't be very easy. My group recognizes that they are the heroes, so they have the ability to far exceed the standards of the world around them. They really like the tangibility of a more gritty world. My group likes the challenge of climbing a cliff, rather than just having the wizard fly them to the top or teleport them. I love having magic in our world, but we tend to draw a line when the magic replaces everything else and negates the need for skills, feats, fighters, etc.