Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Drachasor 04-22-07, 06:02 PM	I looked at the wealth gained each level, as opposed to the total amount. If you take half of that, then that's about an appropriate amount item for that level (on average). For instance, 3rd level wealth is 2700, 2nd level wealth is 900. The wealth gained at 3rd level is then 1800 gp. So an appropriate 3rd level item would cost around 900 gp. This lines up about right with what you'd expect. It ends up being more or less the system MIC uses. So I more or less reconstructed it. So then at each level you gain two techniques equal to to that level. You can trade in one for two techniques of a lower level. Note that there are two sets of level gains (one is 4->5->6) where the money gained is about the same at each transition (e.g. you gain 3600gp from 4->5 and 4000 gp from 5->6). This will affect the trade-in value of techniques. Note, this system leads to slightly less wealth at each level. A normal character already has two 4th level magical items when he hits 4th level. During his trip to 5th level, he gains his two 5th-level equivalents. Here you are a bit behind, having to get your 4th level equivalents during 4th level. For this reason, I don't think it is necessary to worry about body slots and adjusting costs for them. So essentially, here's the new, easier, system. At each level you can learn new abilities. By default you can learn two new techniques equal to your character level. So a 4th level character knows two 1st level techniques, two 2nd level techniques, two 3rd level techniques, and can learn two 4th level techniques. Upon obtaining 5th level, he'll be able to learn two 5th level techniques. (By the time the character levels, he should have learned the techniques appropriate to his previous level, so that 5th level guy should have learned his 4th level techniques). You can trade up or down. Two techniques of the same level can be used to get a higher level abilities. One higher level ability can be used to get two lower level abilities (optionally, you can just replace a higher level ability with a lower level one, which can be desirable in some cases). Follow the conversion rates on the table below. One Item Equals Two Items Of This Level Of This Level 1/2 - 1st 1/2 2nd 1st 3rd 2nd 4th 3rd 5th 4th 6th 4th 7th 5th 8th 6th 9th 7th 10th 8th 11th 9th 12th 10th 13th 11th 14th 12th 15th 13th 16th 14th 17th 15th 18th 15th 19th 16th 20th 17th Some techniques have upgrade paths. These allow you to increase their potency. To upgrade an technique (say Strength +2 to Strength +4), you need the original technique, and then you use a higher level slot to improve it. For the strength example, you need Strength +2 (8th level slot), and you can upgrade it with a 13th level slot to +4 (and a further upgrade with a 15th level slot makes this a +6 bonus). Techniques Techniques are organized as follows according to the follow scheme. Technique Name Level This is the technique level. You must spend a technique slot of that level to learn the technique. If there are multiple levels and you already have one level of ability, then you can upgrade to the NEXT higher level by spending the upgrade cost, denoted by (#U). If there's no upgrade cost, then each level of ability is bought separately. Requirements: Other requirements are listed here. Type: This lists whether the technique is an Extraordinary (Ex), Spell-like (Sp), or Supernatural (Su) ability. Unless otherwise noted in the description, Spell-like abilities have a caster level equal to the Character level user. This also includes any relevant descriptors, such as [Fire] for a fire technique. The name of a given level is denoted in brackets: [name]. Activation: The type of action required to activate this technique is listed here. An entry of -- indicates the item operates continuously, without any need for activation. Benefit: This is a description of how the Technique functions. Lore: This contains information about the sort of people that traditionally master and teach these techniques. Feline Grace Level: 8 [novice], 14 (13U) [adept], 17 (15U) [master] Requirements: None Type: (Ex) Activation: -- Benefit: By training diligently, learning to dodge blows, move gracefully, and balance yourself, you increase your natural agility. As a novice, you gain a +2 Enhancement bonus to Dexterity. As an adept, you gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Dexterity. As a master, you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to Dexterity. Strength of the Bear Level: 8 [novice], 14 (13U) [adept], 17 (15U) [master] Requirements: None Type: (Ex) Activation: -- Benefit: This regimen of special exercises teaches you to utilize the strength of your body better, while greatly increasing the power of your muscles. As a novice, you gain a +2 Enhancement bonus to Strength. As an adept, you gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength. As a master, you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength. Endurance of Stone Level: 8 [novice], 14 (13U) [adept], 17 (15U) [master] Requirements: None Type: (Ex) Activation: -- Benefit: This series of exercises increases how much strain and punishment you can take. As a novice, you gain a +2 Enhancement bonus to Constitution. As an adept, you gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Constitution. As a master, you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to Constitution. Clarity of Vision Level: 8 [novice], 14 (13U) [adept], 17 (15U) [master] Requirements: None Type: (Ex) Activation: -- Benefit: By learning to attune yourself with your environment, you learn to see more deeply into the truths around you. As a novice, you gain a +2 Enhancement bonus to Wisdom. As an adept, you gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Wisdom. As a master, you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to Wisdom. Path of Mental Acuity Level: 8 [novice], 14 (13U) [adept], 17 (15U) [master] Requirements: None Type: (Ex) Activation: -- Benefit: Learning the Path of Mental Acuity requires that you devote yourself to expanding your knowledge and reasoning capabilities, entombing yourself with tomes and logic puzzles for hours on end. As a novice, you gain a +2 Enhancement bonus to Intelligence. As an adept, you gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Intelligence. As a master, you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to Intelligence. Force of Self Level: 8 [novice], 14 (13U) [adept], 17 (15U) [master] Requirements: None Type: (Ex) Activation: -- Benefit: This technique requires that you learn ways to impose your will and desires upon others. You learn to better present your views, and gain a better understanding of yourself. As a novice, you gain a +2 Enhancement bonus to Charisma. As an adept, you gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Charisma. As a master, you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to Charisma. Toughened Hide Level: 6 [novice], 11 (10U) [apprentice], 14 (12) [adept], 16 (13) [journeyman], 18 (14) [master] Requirements: Character Level equal to Technique Level * 3 Type: (Ex) Activation: -- Benefit: This technique requires undergoing a great deal of pain to learn. You expose your skin to a brutal regimen, thickening it and teaching yourself to ignore minor wounds. This makes it harder for blows to land solidly against you. Novice: +1 Natural Armor Bonus Apprentice: +2 Natural Armor Bonus Adept: +3 Natural Armor Bonus Journeyman: +4 Natural Armor Bonus Master: +5 Natural Armor Bonus Scroll Maker TP Cost: 1 (1st), 3 [2nd], 5 [3rd], 7 [4th], 9 [5th], 11 [6th], 13 [7th], 15 [8th], 17 [9th] Requirements: Ability to cast spells Type: (Sp) Activation: As per scroll Benefit: You can make scrolls of spells you know. The scrolls you make have a caster level equal to your own, and your level of technique determines the maximum spell level you can place in a scroll (e.g. [5th] only grants you the ability to place 5th level or lower spells into scrolls). In one day's time you can make a number of scrolls whose total spell level equals half your character level or less. You must know the spell to make a scroll of it. Other people can use the scrolls you make, but you are limited in how many scrolls you can have unused at once. The sum of the spell levels of all scrolls you have made using this ability is limited as follows: [1st]: Sum of levels can be no more than 2. (e.g two 1st level scrolls). [2nd]: Sum of levels can be no more than 4. (e.g. two 2nd level scrolls). [3rd]: Sum of levels can be no more than 9. (e.g. three 3rd level scrolls). [4th]: Sum of levels can be no more than 16. (e.g. four 4th level scrolls). [5th]: Sum of levels can be no more than 25. (e.g. five 5th level scrolls). [6th]: Sum of levels can be no more than 36. (e.g. six 6th level scrolls). [7th]: Sum of levels can be no more than 49. (e.g. seven 7th level scrolls). [8th]: Sum of levels can be no more than 64. (e.g. eight 8th level scrolls). [9th]: Sum of levels can be no more than 81. (e.g. nine 9th level scrolls). Special: You can learn the same level of technique more than once, this doubles the amount of scrolls you can prepare. Potion Maker Requirements: Alchemy ranks equal to technique level. This is the same as Scroll Maker, except as noted above, and as follows. You can only prepare half as many potions as you could prepare scrolls (rounded down). You do not need the ability to cast spells to make these potions, but you do need an alchemy lab. These potions are made twice as slowly as scrolls (1/4 your character level worth of potion levels each day). You do not need to obey the normal rules of potion creation regarding what spells you may place into a potion. Striding Steps level: 10 Requirements: 5 ranks in Jump, Character Level 8 Type: (Ex) Activation: -- Benefit: You gain a +10 Enhancement Bonus to your base land speed. Additionally, you gain a +5 competence bonus to Jump checks. Encouraging Touch Level: 3rd Requirements: 2nd Character Level, Heal 2 ranks Type: (Ex) Activation: -- and standard Benefit: The secrets of this technique teach a healer how to inspire others, replenishing their ability to fight and fend off death. As part of your training you gain a +2 competence bonus on Heal Checks, this is always in effect. Also, with a touch and a word, you can give an ally a renewed vigor, allowing him to shrug off some of his wounds. You can also find renewed inner strength. You have 3 uses of this ability each day, but you can spend 1, 2, or 3 uses at once. 1 uses: You heal for 2d8 hit points of damage. 2 uses: You heal for 3d8 hit points of damage. 3 uses: You heal 4d8 hit points of damage. note: Should I make this a (Su) and add an ability to affect undead? A lot of people I play with don't like how you have to mass-produce/buy magical items so characters function well. Currently we are in a low-magic campaign, about 5th level, but I can already see the lack of magic is going to hit us hard soon. So I came up with the following ideas to make it so that equipment mattered, but that it didn't define much of the character. Here's the rough write-up I have (after some help providing dramatic improvement): Techniques and Training Points There are many masters of different techniques out there. You can seek out these masters and learn their special techniques. Some might want money, others might want a favor, but training seldom comes for free. You are limited in how many techniques you can master, but as you gain levels, your capacity increases. This is represented by your training points. The following chart shows your Training Points (TP) By Level (starting at 2nd) Level Total TP TP Gained 2 36 36 3 108 72 4 216 108 5 360 144 6 520 160 7 760 240 8 1080 320 9 1440 360 10 1960 520 11 2640 680 12 3520 880 13 4400 880 14 6000 1600 15 8000 2000 16 10400 2400 17 13600 3200 18 17600 4000 19 23200 5600 20 30400 7200 Total TP is the total number of Training Points you have at the indicated level. TP Gained is the number of TP you gain at level up (from the previous level). Learning a Technique All techniques have a cost, and most have a prerequisite as well. To learn a new technique, you must devote training points to it equal to its cost as well as meet any prerequisite. This is any addition to any payment or other requirement the teacher (or DM) may impose upon you. You can learn a new technique at any time, as long as you have enough training points to devote to it. In particular, learning a technique does not need to happen when you gain a level. Abandoning a Technique If you decide you don't want to have a technique anymore, then you can abandon it. You must have gained at least 1 level since you acquired the technique before you abandon it. When you abandon the technique, you regain any training points you devoted to it. You may now apply these towards learning a new technique. Improving a Technique Instead of abandoning a Technique, you can also improve a technique. This doesn't require that you gain a level since you learned the original version, but usually higher level techniques are cost prohibitive (so you usually have to gain a level anyway). Bonded Items If you have a bonded item, you may devote training points towards improving it. This works just like improving an existing magical item, but it costs no gold (and may take a different amount of time, depending on the DM). Instead of spending experience, you instead substitute training points on a 1 to 1 basis. You may only use training points to improve a bonded item (not experience). Following the same rules for abandoning technique, you may remove an enchantment on a bonded item. The returns the training points devoted to that enchantment as normal. You may then spend those returned training points anyway you wish. Techniques Techniques are organized as follows according to the follow scheme. Technique Name TP Cost This is the cost in TP, multiple costs for different levels might be listed here. The first cost is for the 1st technique level, the second is for the 2nd, etc. Requirements: Other requirements are listed here. Type: This lists whether the technique is an Extraordinary (Ex), Spell-like (Sp), or Supernatural (Su) ability. Unless otherwise noted in the description, Spell-like abilities have a caster level equal to the Character level user. This also includes any relevant descriptors, such as [Fire] for a fire technique. Activation: The type of action required to activate this technique is listed here. An entry of -- indicates the item operates continuously, without any need for activation. Benefit: This is a description of how the Technique functions. Lore: This contains information about the sort of people that traditionally master and teach these techniques. Feline Grace TP Cost: 160 (novice), 640 (adept), 1280 (master) Requirements: None Type: (Ex) Activation: -- Benefit: By training diligently, learning to dodge blows, move gracefully, and balance yourself, you increase your natural agility. As a novice, you gain a +2 Enhancement bonus to Dexterity. As an adept, you gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Dexterity. As a master, you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to Dexterity. Strength of the Bear TP Cost: 160 (novice), 640 (adept), 1280 (master) Requirements: None Type: (Ex) Activation: -- Benefit: This regimen of special exercises teaches you to utilize the strength of your body better, while greatly increasing the power of your muscles. As a novice, you gain a +2 Enhancement bonus to Strength. As an adept, you gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength. As a master, you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength. Endurance of Stone TP Cost: 160 (novice), 640 (adept), 1280 (master) Requirements: None Type: (Ex) Activation: -- Benefit: This series of exercises increases how much strain and punishment you can take. As a novice, you gain a +2 Enhancement bonus to Constitution. As an adept, you gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Constitution. As a master, you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to Constitution. Clarity of Vision TP Cost: 160 (novice), 640 (adept), 1280 (master) Requirements: None Type: (Ex) Activation: -- Benefit: By learning to attune yourself with your environment, you learn to see more deeply into the truths around you. As a novice, you gain a +2 Enhancement bonus to Wisdom. As an adept, you gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Wisdom. As a master, you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to Wisdom. Path of Mental Acuity TP Cost: 160 (novice), 640 (adept), 1280 (master) Requirements: None Type: (Ex) Activation: -- Benefit: Learning the Path of Mental Acuity requires that you devote yourself to expanding your knowledge and reasoning capabilities, entombing yourself with tomes and logic puzzles for hours on end. As a novice, you gain a +2 Enhancement bonus to Intelligence. As an adept, you gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Intelligence. As a master, you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to Intelligence. Force of Self TP Cost: 160 (novice), 640 (adept), 1280 (master) Requirements: None Type: (Ex) Activation: -- Benefit: This technique requires that you learn ways to impose your will and desires upon others. You learn to better present your views, and gain a better understanding of yourself. As a novice, you gain a +2 Enhancement bonus to Charisma. As an adept, you gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Charisma. As a master, you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to Charisma. Toughened Hide TP Cost: 80 (novice), 240 (apprentice), 560 (adept), 1280 (journeyman), 1840 (master) Requirements: Character Level equal to Technique Level * 3 Type: (Ex) Activation: -- Benefit: This technique requires undergoing a great deal of pain to learn. You expose your skin to a brutal regimen, thickening it and teaching yourself to ignore minor wounds. This makes it harder for blows to land solidly against you. Novice: +1 Natural Armor Bonus Apprentice: +2 Natural Armor Bonus Adept: +3 Natural Armor Bonus Journeyman: +4 Natural Armor Bonus Master: +5 Natural Armor Bonus Scroll Maker TP Cost: 1 (1st), 6 (2nd), 15 (3rd), 28 (4th), 45 (5th), 66 (6th), 91 (7th), 120 (8th), 153 (9th) Requirements: Caster Level Equal to (Technique Level * 2 - 1), Spellcraft Ranks equal to spell level. Type: (Sp) Activation: As per scroll Benefit: You can make scrolls of spells you know. Obey the normal requirements for scroll creation, but you spend no experience. For a given level of ability, the total spell levels of the scrolls you have unused at any one time must be equal to the level of the ability or less. A cantrip scroll counts a 1/2 a spell level. (For example if you have Scroll Maker 5th, you could have one 5th level scroll, or a 2nd level scroll and a 3rd level scroll, or two 2nd level and one 1st level scroll, etc). 1st: The caster level of scrolls from this ability is 1 2nd: The caster level of scrolls from this ability is 3 3rd: The caster level of scrolls from this ability is 5 4th: The caster level of scrolls from this ability is 7 5th: The caster level of scrolls from this ability is 9 6th: The caster level of scrolls from this ability is 11 7th: The caster level of scrolls from this ability is 13 8th: The caster level of scrolls from this ability is 15 9th: The caster level of scrolls from this ability is 17 Special: You can learn this technique more than once, and upgrade this ability as normal. You can learn a given Scroll Maker level more than once, the second time doubles the spell levels of scrolls that ability grants, the third time triples, etc. You can learn technique levels below or above your current level(s) in Scroll Maker, so long as you meet the prerequisites. Potion Maker This is the same as Scroll Maker, but each level costs twice as much and you make potions instead of scrolls (with the same limitations). Striding Steps TP Cost: 330 Requirements: 5 ranks in Jump, Character Level 8 Type: (Ex) Activation: -- Benefit: You gain a +10 Enhancement Bonus to your base land speed. Additionally, you gain a +5 competence bonus to Jump checks. Encouraging Touch TP Cost: 60 Requirements: 2nd Character Level, Heal 2 ranks Type: (Ex) Activation: -- and standard Benefit: The secrets of this technique teach a healer how to inspire others, replenishing their ability to fight and fend off death. As part of your training you gain a +2 competence bonus on Heal Checks, this is always in effect. Also, with a touch and a word, you can give an ally a renewed vigor, allowing him to shrug off some of his wounds. You can also find renewed inner strength. You have 3 uses of this ability each day, but you can spend 1, 2, or 3 uses at once. 1 uses: You heal for 2d8 hit points of damage. 2 uses: You heal for 3d8 hit points of damage. 3 uses: You heal 4d8 hit points of damage. note: Should I make this a (Su) and add an ability to affect undead? --------------------------------------------------------------------- The general rules for calculating TP are as follows: For items that ONLY grant: Enhancement bonuses to ability scores or natural armor, deflection bonuses, armor bonuses (as per bracers of armor), energy resistance, or resistance bonuses to saving throws, and unslotted items Take the normal EXP cost for creating the given item (or the GP cost divided by 25 if it doesn't duplicate a spell with an experience component). For all other items: GP Cost * 1.5 / 25 (or, equivalently, EXP Cost * 1.5) This takes into account that multiple item effects in the same slot normally cost more. (I increased the TP granted to take this into account) Note that the party should only ever gain very minor magical items in a campaign using this. Gold is relatively worthless as far as fighting power goes. So they can get as much of that as you want. It is used for some things (like scroll making), but gold cost should (almost) NEVER be a limiting factor. Gold costs are just for flavor. Character level requirements (if any), are generally based on the Item Level in the Spell Compendium - 2. (That's the minimum level you should probably be seen with such an item). If you want more magical items and fewer of these effects, decrease TP gained accordingly. -Drachasor A lot of people I play with don't like how you have to mass-produce/buy magical items so characters function well. Currently we are in a low-magic campaign, about 5th level, but I can already see the lack of magic is going to hit us hard soon. So I came up with the following ideas to make it so that equipment mattered, but that it didn't define much of the character. Defense Bonus: All characters have a defense bonus equal to their Character Level * 3/4, rounded down. This is added to AC when flat-footed. Half of it applies to AC against touch attacks. When using a shield its shield bonus to AC is increased by 1/2 your defense bonus, rounded down. (so a 12th level character with a defense bonus of +9, has a +6 (+2 +4) Shield Bonus to AC). In exchange you can't get any enhancement bonus on armor or shields. Spells and effects that grant an enhancement bonus to armor or shields instead grant an equal amount of DR. Nor can you get any bonus to your natural armor (spells that provide natural armor grant you DR equal to their armor bonus). Deflection Bonuses are possible to find on rare magical items, but these can't exceed a +2 deflection bonus. Saving Throws: Everyone gains a Resistance Bonus to all saves equal to Character Level/3, rounded down. Items that grant a resistance bonus to AC don't exist. Weapons/Magical Items: Magical items are extremely rare, but everyone can have one (or two in some campaigns) bonded items, as per the DMG2. This allows warriors to still have effective weapons, without changing the system greatly. Ability Improvements: You can improve your ability scores instead of improving a bonded item. This costs the same in terms of money as buying items to improve the score. The bonus is an enhancement bonus, but it can't be dispelled. I suppose some modifications could allow you to halve or quarter the wealth-by-level, and get rid of the cost for weapons or ability improvements. You can still have minor magical items, but the "big six" are taken care of without being tied to equipment you buy/sell. Thoughts? Any problems I haven't forseen?
Ashanti 04-23-07, 09:59 AM	My group have a similar experience: We have removed the magic item crafting from PCs with the exception of potions and scrolls. We find that magic items are more fun when they are fought for, rather than bought. This removes the need for vast hordes of treasure (my players are motivated by the fun of plating rather than the in game rewards). This means the PCs are always comparable to your average mercenary in terms of financial clout. I also means I can tailor the flow of items to fit the characters. We use defense bonus but use one half of the PCs BAB (to favour warrior types) with armour having half its AC (round up) as AC and the other half (round down) as DR. We have kept magic armour and shield bonuses however in contrast to you. We also have done away with stat boost items as we found them no fun (just a mechanical increase for the PC, not really exciting). Our method of balance at higher level play is to have stats rolled on 4d4+4 (we play on Athas) and me as a DM balancing encounters myself (the CR is an okay guide but not that effective). We have never had a problem with saves being to low (good to have high stats). What are the 'big six'? As far as problems go, you can only really go wrong if your DM is not on the ball with his/her selection of encounters. We have always played low magic item games and never have been able to go to the magic mart- it has more verisimilatude towards the vision we have of our campaign worlds.
Vaelan 04-24-07, 03:49 AM	I like this vein of changes. If the item provides a +, it is usually fairly boring. I would rather have those be integrated into the character so that interesting magic items are emphasized. Defense Bonus: All characters have a defense bonus equal to their Character Level * 3/4, rounded down. This is added to AC when flat-footed. Half of it applies to AC against touch attacks. When using a shield its shield bonus to AC is increased by 1/2 your defense bonus, rounded down. (so a 12th level character with a defense bonus of +9, has a +6 (+2 +4) Shield Bonus to AC). In exchange you can't get any enhancement bonus on armor or shields. Spells and effects that grant an enhancement bonus to armor or shields instead grant an equal amount of DR. Nor can you get any bonus to your natural armor (spells that provide natural armor grant you DR equal to their armor bonus). Deflection Bonuses are possible to find on rare magical items, but these can't exceed a +2 deflection bonus. Obviously you're going for basic equivalence here. This means that your changes should be consistent in how they affect the AC of characters in regards to both each other and their opponents. You're removing 5 points of armor bonus, 5 points of shield bonus, 6 points of natural armor bonus, and 3 points of deflection bonus. Anyone can benefit from natural armor and deflection, so you're taking 9 points away from everyone. Giving everyone a baseline defense bonus of Level * 1/2 makes up for this. People who wear armor are losing 5 more points. Give them a defense bonus of Level * 3/4. People who wear armor and use shields are losing 10 more points. Give them a defense bonus of Level * 1. My recommendations... Give Monks, Wizards, Druids, and Sorcerers a defense bonus equal to half of their level. If they using a shield, they get a defense bonus equal to three-fourths of their level. Give everyone else a defense bonus equal to three-fourths of their level. If they use a shield, they get a defense bonus equal to their level. Saving Throws: Everyone gains a Resistance Bonus to all saves equal to Character Level/3, rounded down. Items that grant a resistance bonus to AC don't exist. A short, simple change with no consequences that I can see. Weapons/Magical Items: Magical items are extremely rare, but everyone can have one (or two in some campaigns) bonded items, as per the DMG2. This allows warriors to still have effective weapons, without changing the system greatly. I'll edit in a response when I have a chance to read the bonded items. Ability Improvements: You can improve your ability scores instead of improving a bonded item. This costs the same in terms of money as buying items to improve the score. The bonus is an enhancement bonus, but it can't be dispelled. So Fighters and other melee-oriented characters get fewer ability score increases than people who can either enchant their own weapons (Greater Magic Weapon / Fang) or don't need weapons? I'm not liking this and I think the reason is obvious.
Drachasor 04-24-07, 03:14 PM	So Fighters and other melee-oriented characters get fewer ability score increases than people who can either enchant their own weapons (Greater Magic Weapon / Fang) or don't need weapons? I'm not liking this and I think the reason is obvious. Well, a lot of the requirements for improving a bonded item can be rather easily met. I suppose you could make it so that you can improve your ability scores AND your bonded item if you meet the prerequisites.* (Note that you don't need any item creation feats, but I think you got that). That would take care of the problem. I made it enhancement bonuses so that you can have standard wizards and clerics in such a campaign and not have to constantly buff with Bull's Strength and the like. I suppose I should implement a "crafting" system. Provide a certain amount of "self improvement" points you get at each level. You can then use these points to make yourself stronger or your weapon/bonded item better. Once you can satisfy the bonding ritual, of course. These improvement points take the place of either gold (in which case you don't need exp) or exp (in which case you don't need gold) for improvement purposes. Wealth by level would then be reduced accordingly. I suppose this could even replace the above "defense bonus" thing, though improving yourself with a "deflection" bonus seems a bit odd (and "enhancement bonus" to AC would have to stack with worn armor then). -Drachasor *Or add special events for improving ability scores. I wanted to make it work like bonded items so it had a different "feel" than creating or buying magical items.
Holy_Beholder 04-25-07, 11:22 PM	The guide to increasing potency without a defense bonus. -Deleted- I just realized that compared to my other system, this sucks so bad it isn't even funny. The other system is down below. So I deleted this one.
Jackmojo 04-26-07, 07:24 PM	As a more customizeable option then Holy_beholder's template you might looks at the Heroic Paths (which are OGL) from Midnight by Fantasy Flight Games. Some won't work cause of the funky Magic system but they give all Pc's level based special abilites which are themeatically linked, my group has found they provide an interesting alternative to gear dependency. Jack
Luis_Dragunov 04-28-07, 09:17 AM	If you're having troubles in a low-magic world, then it means something isn't right. You see, the grade of a world (high-magic, medium-magic, low-magic) isn't just restricted to what big-ass magic weapons and what flashy equipment your characters have. Those things are merely a response to the real dangers: enemies. D&D is based on a system that is as follows: the stronger characters get, the more wealth they have, and that wealth translate into assets such as defensive, offensive, and miscelaneous use items. And the CR of encounters and monsters is calculated thusly. This means that, if you've nerfed your world by reducing the ammount of magical items (and possibly magic spells themselves) available to your characters (and, from what I understand, to the world itself) and you've kept the same monsters prowling around, that won't only not work, it also raises the question of how non-powered races such as humans, elves, and so on have survived this far. Magic and magic items, as well as their availability, are (or rather, should) be proportional to the threat the world (read: prowling monsters) present. Can you imagine a world full of trolls and giants and dragons where a +1 weapon is seen as highly revered and a prized possession? Maybe, yeah, but one where humans haven't yet been driven to exinction? However, there are a variety of solutions for your problem! 1) Nerf the Monsters too - When many people think of a low-magic world, Middle Earth often comes to mind. And with good reason! Magic was trully mystical there, not some tool that every two-bit human mage could wield, magic items were subtle and terrifying and monsters were not very varied but they were trully frightening. And that's where I want you to focus: the monsters. What monsters were there? Some orcs, some gnomes, some wargs, and they were a good opposition to normal PC races but heroes handled them alright. Then you had the mountain trolls and then the ollifants who were scary and powerful and the Naz'gūl who slapped everyone around silly. And what is a Naz'gūl? Seriously? It's some undead with a fear aura and a weapon that inflicts a poison - and it kicked ass. 2) Legacy Items - Why not? Give your players some measly magic weapons at first who, as time progresses, get stronger as they found a legacy with their exploits. Seems pretty good to me. 3) Magical Boost Items - Magic items are useful because they're always working. +3 Keen Flaming Burst Longswords are always +3 Keen Flaming Burst Longswords even when you're not in battle, if you're sleeping or if you're taking a bath. Well, why not make them work only a number of times per day? Give the fighter a +1 Greatsword that, a number of times per day, gains a greater enhancement or that it can release an Icy Burst but then needs 1d10 rounds to recharge. It should both give them a greater edge in battle but also make them think about tactics and make battles even a bit more dangerous. 4) Das gutt Gestalt, mein freund - Make the characters gestalt. If the world around them is tough, it's only reasonable that the PC characters (and probably the key villains) rise themselves an extra cut above the rest and can master two paths at once. Besides giving your character more resources, it also keeps them, not the magic items, as sources of power.
Drachasor 04-28-07, 03:36 PM	If you're having troubles in a low-magic world, then it means something isn't right. You see, the grade of a world (high-magic, medium-magic, low-magic) isn't just restricted to what big-ass magic weapons and what flashy equipment your characters have. Those things are merely a response to the real dangers: enemies. D&D is based on a system that is as follows: the stronger characters get, the more wealth they have, and that wealth translate into assets such as defensive, offensive, and miscelaneous use items. And the CR of encounters and monsters is calculated thusly. This means that, if you've nerfed your world by reducing the ammount of magical items (and possibly magic spells themselves) available to your characters (and, from what I understand, to the world itself) and you've kept the same monsters prowling around, that won't only not work, it also raises the question of how non-powered races such as humans, elves, and so on have survived this far. Well, I'm not running the campaign, I'm just a PC. My brother is the DM, and I've just started to get concerned about such questions. I think a lot of monsters in the normal game are much rarer, but we did face some Hill Giants the other day They were clearly depowered some (only one attack, but we were just 5th level). That said, they really hurt. It made me really notice how the warriors would never be able to handle them that well, since their AC is never going to get much better. In general, I just don't think D&D can handle ever-increasing BAB but static AC. It makes higher levels more and more dangerous for fighting types, due to enemies hitting with every attack they have (and throwing on power attack just makes this worse). Sure, you could just eliminate most of the MM monsters, but that still doesn't fix the basic problem, imho. Combats become even shorter than they were before. We are also using standard D&D spells, though with a modified magic system. Wizards start with access only to Transmutation and one other school (of their choice, plus all cantrips from all schools). You can spend a feat to get access to one more school of magic (and you start with essentially 1 bonus feat from a limited list, another normal bonus feat, and can take a flaw--from a limited list--for another bonus feat at 1st). We also use a Spell Point system similar to Midnight's, where each spell costs a number of points equal to the spell level (cantrips just have a limited number of uses). You start with a number of spell points equal to 3+Charisma Mod. This goes up by 3 each level for 5 levels, then goes up by 4, then by 5 (for 5 levels each, but the last 5 levels go up more rapidly). Spells readied are as normal (bonus based on int), but you cast spontaneously from your readied list (e.g. no need to ready more than one of each spell). Wizards get a bonus arcana at 4th and every 4 levels thereafter, which can grant access to another school or be used to "specialize" in a school which reduces the spell points cost of each spell in that school by 1 (minimum 1, can't double specialize in the same school). Wizards also have a d6 hit die, 3/4s BAB, standard bonuses feats, a familiar, and simple weapon proficiency. So wizards are more potent at low levels, but can cast A LOT fewer spells once you get past level 7 or so. Max spell points at level 20 is about 95 + Charisma Mod, which is about enough to power four spells each from 7th, 8th, and 9th levels. Specializing doesn't help this much (helps a lot with low level spells though). Additionally, I forgot to mention that you can only cast spells from low levels easily. If you cast your highest or second highest spell level, for instance, then you "discharge" that spell level. You can't cast spells of that level until it is recharged (which costs extra spell points while casting another spell, or requires a full-round action). At 20th level you can only freely cast 5th level spells and lower without this discharge effect happening. That said, with warriors getting the shaft, magically speaking. A wizard can still cast defensive buffs and can still deal a lot of damage (or uses save or die/lose spells). So while the changes might make the wizard a lot more balanced in a traditional D&D game, his lesser gear dependency than a warrior is still highly problematic. I decided to play a Gish, and I am worried about how our Warblade is going to be doing. I also think constantly casting Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, etc, etc, on everyone is going to get exceedingly annoying (and necessary!--and tedious!) as time goes on. So I am trying to think of ways to accommodate the current system. To make sure everyone is equally valuable and important in the party (roughly speaking). (As for me playing a Gish, I've wanted to play one for a long time. Normally I stick to wizards. In this particular world, it seems like a Gish has some problems too. Mainly I'll have trouble with damage output, though my defense should be crazy compared to my poor compatriots. Traditional feats like Arcane Strike are not good when you have a lot fewer spell-slot equivalent stuff to throw at them, imho). Magic and magic items, as well as their availability, are (or rather, should) be proportional to the threat the world (read: prowling monsters) present. Can you imagine a world full of trolls and giants and dragons where a +1 weapon is seen as highly revered and a prized possession? Maybe, yeah, but one where humans haven't yet been driven to exinction? It's possible if there are reasons why such monsters haven't been bothering people. Certainly giants are easily dealt with by the fact they will have smaller numbers, and don't have AoE attacks, so armies of humans can handle them well enough (compared to population sizes). Rarer, more powerful and magical monsters, are another story though. If there were lots of dragons, then that would raise questions. However, there are solutions to such things, perhaps they have been in hibernation/hiding for a long time for some reason, and only now do dark things stir once more (kinda LotR-esque). Also, PCs tend to go places that no one or hardly anyone else ever goes, so they can get themselves into trouble that would generally not be a problem for everyday life. However, there are a variety of solutions for your problem! 1) Nerf the Monsters too - When many people think of a low-magic world, Middle Earth often comes to mind. And with good reason! Magic was trully mystical there, not some tool that every two-bit human mage could wield, magic items were subtle and terrifying and monsters were not very varied but they were trully frightening. And that's where I want you to focus: the monsters. What monsters were there? Some orcs, some gnomes, some wargs, and they were a good opposition to normal PC races but heroes handled them alright. Then you had the mountain trolls and then the ollifants who were scary and powerful and the Naz'gūl who slapped everyone around silly. And what is a Naz'gūl? Seriously? It's some undead with a fear aura and a weapon that inflicts a poison - and it kicked ass. Well, the Naz' had damage reduction and were pretty much immortal. That certainly helped them a great, great deal. They were just rare and for much of the past 1000 years of Middle Earth's history (as of LotRs) they weren't around. As for the campaign I am already in, it seems in most ways like a normal low-magic world, at least as far as wizards/clerics are concerned. Such classes are perhaps half as common as in a 'normal' D&D game, but they aren't unknown. So as far as that is concerned, we already have to deal with such a world. Magic items, on the other hand, are supposedly quite rare (there are no magic item creation feats, and we've been told that making items requires the proper place and very special, non-reusable, items--though you don't need feats to make any magic items, just those crazy-rare stuff). So that's what got me started on this line of thinking. 2) Legacy Items - Why not? Give your players some measly magic weapons at first who, as time progresses, get stronger as they found a legacy with their exploits. Seems pretty good to me. Well, we don't have weapons of legacy, and I don't think anyone is going to buy it. That said, bonded items from the DMG2 seems like a workable idea. The DM hasn't seemed opposed to it. A bonded item can't fix the biggest problem however. That's low AC and low saving throws. Those need to have magic or some equivalent effect to keep them on par with how BAB increases. 3) Magical Boost Items - Magic items are useful because they're always working. +3 Keen Flaming Burst Longswords are always +3 Keen Flaming Burst Longswords even when you're not in battle, if you're sleeping or if you're taking a bath. Well, why not make them work only a number of times per day? Give the fighter a +1 Greatsword that, a number of times per day, gains a greater enhancement or that it can release an Icy Burst but then needs 1d10 rounds to recharge. It should both give them a greater edge in battle but also make them think about tactics and make battles even a bit more dangerous. Well, I don't think the problem is magical items existing. People did have a problem with the "magical factories" using creation feats. That and buying and selling magical items easily. That was in a previous campaign. This one is designed to get rid of that problem. However, the sad fact is that the game assumes you are going to get AC-boosting gear, attack boosting-gear, save-boosting gear, etc. Without that, things start to break down and it isn't easily handled. You can't easily fix it, imho, because PC BAB is still growing at the standard rate -- and note that the best improvement to attack you can get from magic is +8 to hit (+6 belt of giant strength, +5 weapon), but defense is over +15. That's a huge gap, and monsters would need heavy adjusting to handle it. High level NPCs would need higher AC and lower to-hits than PCs (so we don't deal more damage to them, and they don't deal more too us), but that's incredibly artificial. Not doing that means combat is far more lethal than it already is (and it is pretty lethal in D&D, but raising is easy). So that's a problem that things need to address, imho. Plus the fact that magic spells still grant such bonuses is a problem, since unless everyone is a wizard (which defeats the style of the campaign) then resources will be too thin to buff everyone. 4) Das gutt Gestalt, mein freund - Make the characters gestalt. If the world around them is tough, it's only reasonable that the PC characters (and probably the key villains) rise themselves an extra cut above the rest and can master two paths at once. Besides giving your character more resources, it also keeps them, not the magic items, as sources of power. Well, the games started, so that can't work, sadly. It would help saving throws the most, but the AC problem would not be significantly affected. That's why I've tried to work up some proposals that make it so that PCs just getting better AC and saves on their own. As well as the ability for enhancement bonuses to stats. Sadly the DM doesn't think we should "get stuff for free," though he might change his mind in time. I did point out that normal D&D gives you stuff "for free" in the form of treasure and magic. ("stuff" above referring to automatic bonuses to AC and saves as you level). I'll try talking to him again, but it seems hard to talk to him about the game when we aren't playing. When we are playing it doesn't seem like an appropriate time. Personally, I'm all for having fewer magical items. Some low-key magical items are fine (like scrolls and potions, a few minor stuff), and some more significant and special magical items are cool too. I'd prefer to feel that most of the other bonuses and boosts we get are "internal" to our characters. Certainly if the game is assuming you are going to get +AC, +save, +stat gear to a huge extent, then there's a problem (you should automatically get most/all of such boosts if they are balancing the game around you getting them). I'd certainly rather not play "let's see if the DM nerfed these monsters right or we are dead." Balancing monsters is a tricky thing, and it can lead to the world feeling unrealistic (especially if enemy NPCs run on different rules than PCs, such as not getting iterative attacks). Those are things I'd like to avoid. So I tried to craft a proposal the DM would like. I'm thinking of changing my tact though, and altering it a bit. Have PCs get "self-improvement points" as I mentioned above. Which, with in-game time and training (or something), can give you AC, save, or enhancement bonuses (to attributes). That plus a bonded item or two should have things balanced as D&D expects, pretty much. -Drachasor
Holy_Beholder 04-28-07, 03:59 PM	What about some kind of specialized training, for inherent, non stacking bonuses. So instead of buying a +5 weapon, you could learn the Swift and Agile Swordsman technique, or the High Art of the Spear. Instead of buying magic armor, you could find training for the Great Defensive Timing, or Mastery of the Deflecting Shield. That way, if you managed to convince on of the say, 12 best swordsmen in the world to teach you, it would really help, instead of being almost worthless. The belt of giant strength could be the Stone Wrist Striking Technique. It would be like a magic item, but instead of an item, training. Instead of item locations, there are types of training.
Drachasor 04-28-07, 04:34 PM	What about some kind of specialized training, for inherent, non stacking bonuses. So instead of buying a +5 weapon, you could learn the Swift and Agile Swordsman technique, or the High Art of the Spear. Instead of buying magic armor, you could find training for the Great Defensive Timing, or Mastery of the Deflecting Shield. That way, if you managed to convince on of the say, 12 best swordsmen in the world to teach you, it would really help, instead of being almost worthless. The belt of giant strength could be the Stone Wrist Striking Technique. It would be like a magic item, but instead of an item, training. Instead of item locations, there are types of training. That's a great idea. It also sounds like something my brother would go for. I'll combine that with a "training point" proposal (based off wealth-by level) and see what my DM thinks. The "training points" would just be a way to make sure the change was balanced. I figure if you fix training points by level, have magical items be very rare, then how much wealth the DM throws at you is not an issue. The only potential concern is my brother LOVES throwing time-lines at the party. We just got unavoidably goosed* by some elves who want a relic of theirs back. There's a one-year time-line (though potentially we could go back and get an extension). Still, I think the training + training point thing would still work. And a "training point" think can be explained easily enough as sometimes you need to go out and try out what you know to improve yourself further. I think I'll have training points equal on a 1 for 1 basis to the EXP cost of items (whose effects they duplicate). I am thinking that going by the wealth-by-level chart in the DMG, taking between 85% and 95% of that wealth, and dividing that by 25 for total training points at a given level (including past spent), should work fine.** Improving a bonded item would also take training points (though you might be able to do this on your own). The extra 5-15% wealth above should cover most magical and mundane items we come across (as well as misc spending). Wealth beyond that (which isn't used to pay for training) shouldn't affect the actual game much. You might use it to buy a home/tower/etc, but that doesn't make you more powerful in a fight. Hmm, of course my father (in the game) is Master Braetak (based on the Stargate character of the same name), so finding some trainers might be easier than others. Heh. Still, I think my brother will like the idea, and it is a really good idea role-playing-wise. Thanks a bunch! So that's something like: 2nd level: 32 Training Points 3rd level: 65 more training points (97 total) .... 8th level: 288 more training points than 7th, 972 total ... 12th level: 792 more training points than 11th, 3168 total ... 16th level: 2160 more training points than 15th, 9360 total ... 20th level: 6480 more training points than 19th, 27360 total -Drachasor *This is officially how I've decided to refer to having geas cast on me. **I suppose I could just use it as a direct gold-piece amount, that is easier in a lot of ways (well, one way). However, it does seem a bit tackier, and I want to remove the gold comparison.
Holy_Beholder 04-28-07, 05:24 PM	I'm glad you like it. And it could also be a great way to show off what magic there. A spirit could teach you, which would really seperate you from the rest of the world. Picture this: The ghost of your greatest ancester shows up in a dream, once you reach the fabled circle of temples, and offers to show you a way to power. Also, there could be some sort of simple level potiential thing. For instance, a 16th or higher level character could walk through a +4 magic sword gate, but lower levels would be thrown back.
Luis_Dragunov 04-28-07, 07:50 PM	You guys should really try and get the Incarnum book then. I've read it but didn't find it too interesting but, basically, it's all about characters that gain bonuses through a system that emulates magic items without actually having said magical items - like granting yourself bonuses to strength or extra speed.
Holy_Beholder 04-28-07, 09:17 PM	I am sticking with my special training style. I have seen the Incarnum book, like it okay, but I prefer my style.
Drachasor 04-30-07, 10:40 PM	Updated my original post with the new system (put the old crappy one into an sblock)
Drachasor 05-01-07, 08:46 PM	I'm going to try to get a better version of this done within the next week. My DM pointed out that it would be VERY complicated. That's quite true. There are too many points, (in his opinion and now imho). Things ranging from 1 point to tens of thousands. That's going to get hard for a number of players in our group to keep track of. As such, I am going to try to radically reduce the number of points. My tentative plan is to divide the total number at a given level by the level squared (or perhaps half the level squared -- by 10*10 at 20th). I might divide it further by a constant. From there a given ability costs only a few points, but it will improve as you gain character levels. (Some DMs might want training when you can improve it). This will naturally fit in with AC improvements, save improvements, and other enchantments that go by level^2. For other sorts of magical effects and items, I'll have to figure something else out. That or abandon them. Thankfully most things can be fixed this way. -Drachasor
Holy_Beholder 05-01-07, 08:56 PM	That is totally awesome! My idea made the perfect system! Drachasor, you are a genius! This should be submitted to WoTC, maybe as a variant.
Drachasor 05-02-07, 02:31 AM	That is totally awesome! My idea made the perfect system! Drachasor, you are a genius! This should be submitted to WoTC, maybe as a variant. Thank you for your support and help. I still think I can make it work better. I'm going to try to figure out some way to get the points down to a more manageable level. Perhaps ranging from a handful of training points at 2nd level to less than 100 at 20th. That will require that techniques automatically improve as you level. There still should be room for upgrades though, which would let you increase the rate of improvement. *sigh* the D&D wealth system is a bit nuts, especially the exponential increases at the last few levels. I do like how it automatically makes you fit into your wealth by level guidelines. It makes slipping into a monty haul campaign almost impossible. -Drachasor
Holy_Beholder 05-02-07, 05:55 PM	Also for weapons, here are the new classifications(If you want) The enchantment bonus corresponds to a special method. I am using the sword for an example. For Swords and shields, it is a title, for armor a technique: +1 Great Swordsman +2 Master Swordsman +3 Elite Swordsman +4 Legendary Swordsman +5 Perfect Swordsman For Shields +1 Great Deflector +2 Master Blocker +3 Elite Defender +4 Legendary Interposer +5 Perfect Protector For Armor +1 Twisting Defense +2 Specialist Absorbing +3 Shifting Glance +4 Ricocheting Interposing +5 Perfect Protection
Drachasor 05-03-07, 05:20 PM	I changed the system to be a bit easier to manage. I think this is a lot easier, anyhow. Certainly you don't have to add up a huge swath of numbers ranging from 1 to 10,000+, you just pick two abilities per level (and trading an ability makes it only slightly more complicated). I'll add weapon and armor stuff. I just need to do some figuring on how to account for special abilities that are plus equivalents. -Drachasor
Holy_Beholder 05-03-07, 05:56 PM	The speed special ability could be Ingrained Strike, Bane could be Trained Hunter, Defending could be Great Deflection, Merciful could be Flat/Butt Strike, Mighty Cleaving could be Razor Slicing. For ranged weapons, Bane could be Studied Target, Distance could be Perfect Shot, Seeking could be Fire by Ear, Speed could be Quick Firing. Merciful could be Armor Bruiser. For Shields: Arrow Catching remains the same, Arrow deflection becomes Timed Twisting. For Armor: Fortification could be Greater Blocking, Silent Moves would become Avoiding Clanking, and Shadow could be Gradient Polishing.
Holy_Beholder 05-05-07, 09:16 PM	Also, Drachasor, you still have items written in the table, instead of technique. Just thought I'd point it out, and this thread needed a :bump: anyways.
Holy_Beholder 05-21-07, 09:23 PM	You might want to remove enhancement bonuses from the rare weapons found altogether, and just give them the element, or bane, or whatever.
Drachasor 05-22-07, 12:12 AM	I moved this to another thread, since I wanted more room at the top (e.g. more posts to fill things in). http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=850891 Hmm, I'm thinking about what to do about rare items. -Drachasor
Holy_Beholder 05-22-07, 07:44 PM	Rare items would stack with this. Magic items wouldn't need +1 bonuses though, just special abilities. Also, did your brother go for this? And the new thread needs your ability boosting "items again"