Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kenicolo 06-15-07, 10:23 AM	I wanted tu use a lower hp variant to give to my player a greater respect of their own character life and of those around in the game. What do you think about such a variant, to what proportion should i reduce the curent HP( i thaught o fusing the CON score) and whant balance factor should be considered??? Thanks for any comments and suggestions.:)
kenicolo 06-15-07, 10:31 AM	Using Con score as HP give a pretty low HP so i thaught of adding you bab to this HP wich you REALLY reflect that a high level fighter can wistand more damage than a wizard. Also Spells can deal a LOT of damage so lowering it so thant any damage spell that adds DICE to damage bocomes +2 ex. A lvl 5 wiz casting a fireball would deal 1D6+8 (+2 damage instead of 4 additional D6). EDIT: this apply to anithing that deals many dices (big weapons, sneak attack and friends) Also defense become much more important (as in real life) cauz a hit that connect is a always a bad hit. So AC should be a bit higher and/or ad damage reduction. This also make magic items much more powerfull so a +2 sword is really awsome.
Knightblde 06-15-07, 10:51 AM	In my opinion you are changing to much. Someone with a Great Sword, Power Attack and a high strength is going to kill your level 20 fighter in one hit. You will have to adjust the damage of each spell, the healing of each spell. You will have to nerf Sneak Attacks. Anything that does Con damage is a major killer. I think you have to change the entire rules system to make this work. Just be sure to look at everything in the game so that your players are not killed in the first round of combat each time.
Kurikin 06-15-07, 01:14 PM	With I would also use a form of the armor as DR variant in UA to make armor more important. So armor provides a DR/- bonus equal to 1/2 the armor's armor bonus rounded down. Normally you take the armor bonus minus the DR it gives to get its new armor bonus (old AB - DR = new AB) but that might be too much so I would leave the armor bonus it provides intact. Power attack I would cut the bonus damage in half. Extra damage dice I would probably use 1/4 its average damage (add up all the average damage then divide by 4.) P.S. Its easier to read a post when words are spelled correctly. Misspelled words are underlined in red and if you right click on them it will give you the correct spelling.
Rhialto 06-15-07, 06:59 PM	The problem with making a system realistic, is that realistically, lots of people die for very dumb reasons, even famous protagonists. And random stupid deaths are not fun or heroic, which is why D&D as deisgned is intentionally on a heroic rather than realistic scale. Sure, its unrealistic how much damage the heroes can take. But there's a very good rationale for it in game theory.
trapspringer 06-15-07, 07:44 PM	The best way to achieve the result you are looking for is to implement the "gritty" massive damage threshold. If you take ten damage from a single hit, you make a fortitude save. If you fail that save, you're dropped to -1.
CryoSilver 06-15-07, 09:02 PM	There's also Wound and Vitality points.
Fireclave 06-15-07, 09:27 PM	The problem with making a system realistic, is that realistically, lots of people die for very dumb reasons, even famous protagonists. And random stupid deaths are not fun or heroic, which is why D&D as deisgned is intentionally on a heroic rather than realistic scale. Sure, its unrealistic how much damage the heroes can take. But there's a very good rationale for it in game theory. QFT If your players aren't immersive enough with their characters, you have a RP problem that a hitpoint nerf-patch probably won't fix. Lowering HP might even have the opposite effect you are going for. If their characters start dying too easily, what's the point in investing any time or effort in them?
kenicolo 06-16-07, 08:11 AM	one of the main reason for my post is that as a player i always fid it riculous when i deal 3 times 10 damage and the ennemy does not suffer any ill effect and is taking his tea cup whilg i am killing it...
Knightblde 06-16-07, 11:01 AM	In 2nd edition the designers did a better job of explaining hit points. Their take was that the more hit points are not a measure of how much damage you can take, but rather how much you can mitigate damage. As an example, lets take a shot from an arrow. It does 8 damage. To the level 1 character, this means that it hits him in the head, killing him instantly. To the level 10 character, this means that his shield was raised just in time to make a glacing blow, causing only minor damage. It does not mean that the level 10 character got hit in the between the eyes and just shrugged it off. If you can adopt this attitude, the HP system will make more sense to you. Happy Gaming!
Fireclave 06-16-07, 02:08 PM	In 2nd edition the designers did a better job of explaining hit points. Their take was that the more hit points are not a measure of how much damage you can take, but rather how much you can mitigate damage. As an example, lets take a shot from an arrow. It does 8 damage. To the level 1 character, this means that it hits him in the head, killing him instantly. To the level 10 character, this means that his shield was raised just in time to make a glacing blow, causing only minor damage. It does not mean that the level 10 character got hit in the between the eyes and just shrugged it off. If you can adopt this attitude, the HP system will make more sense to you. Happy Gaming! There are problems describing HP in this way as well. Let's say that shot to the head causes 8 HP of damage to a 4 HP commoner, dropping him to -4 HP and is bleeding to death. A cure light wounds rolled for max HP (9HP) will clear that life threating wound right up. So why doesn't CLW do the same for the 10th level character. The commoner had a hole in the head, the 10th level character only has a scratch. CLW should heal that scratch and then some.
Werral 06-16-07, 05:36 PM	You could use a deadlier system + Action Points that prevent bad luck killing a character. Higher level characters could have more APs since they're favoured by the gods/fate. If you've ever read Homer's Iliad that's what happens: There are lots of systems on this very board if you look. You should find one you like. Personally I think the best work on by changing the Massive Damage rule. I put my on Shino's thread for a new HP system. 3E also describes HP as mitigating damage too. It still doesn't explain why a Cure Light Wounds won't heal a high level fighter who's unaffected by his wounds but it'll heal a commoner on the bring of death back to full HP. I presume that if you want to make lethal combat you want your characters to spend more encounters RPing? Also nonlethal combat is good to through in some campaigns (like an urban campaign with lots of scraps).
RobbyPants 06-18-07, 01:04 PM	The problem with changing HP too much in the D&D game is that the PCs die far too often. Remember that this game is supposed to be epic, in that six-foot tall humans are expected to be able to battle barn-sized dragons with 12-inch teeth! They need the extra HP to be able to pull off these epic feats. At this point, the HP system is less about realism, and more about fun. Now, I've done something similar before in a modified d20 modern system I worked on. Basically, I had most weapons deal more damage (effectively double, keeping guns the same), and changed the HP totals around. At level 1, I gave PCs 3 times the normal HP. Then they only got normal HP after that. Basically, they started out somewhat ahead (necessary for survivability at low levels), but fell behind, as they effectively got half the "normal" HP compared to the weapon damage. The idea behind this was to keep the lower level characters alive a bit, but to keep the fear of death at the mid/high levels. But this makes more sense in a modern world, where people aren't called to fight dragons!
Millennium 06-18-07, 01:20 PM	If you really want to go with lower HP and deadlier combat, then I recommend the Grim-n-Gritty ruleset for d20. Everything has a flat 25 hit points, you start taking penalties as you get wounded, and armor acts as DR (which really seems to appeal to certain folks). It also has the interesting quirk that armor can protect against magical attacks.
CryoSilver 06-18-07, 02:03 PM	In Call of Cthulhu, the massive damage threshold is 15 points.
Light_Colonel 06-18-07, 02:21 PM	Let's not forget every necromancers favorite two spells: Enervate and Energy Drain. Anything that deals negative levels for that matter. For every Negative Level you are supposed to knock 5 hp off of the PCs total. A single Vampire Spawn could TPK an entire party, very easily. Just leave HP the way they are. If you wanna mess with your PC, just start hitting him with stat draining and level draining stuff.
Jagyr Ebonwood 06-18-07, 03:30 PM	There are problems describing HP in this way as well. Let's say that shot to the head causes 8 HP of damage to a 4 HP commoner, dropping him to -4 HP and is bleeding to death. A cure light wounds rolled for max HP (9HP) will clear that life threating wound right up. So why doesn't CLW do the same for the 10th level character. The commoner had a hole in the head, the 10th level character only has a scratch. CLW should heal that scratch and then some. It does. Part of what HP represents is the ability to deal with sustained damage or bad conditions, especially the stress of combat. Someone with lots of HP might not react to 8 damage, but they're still affected by it in terms of muscle stress and fatigue, as well as mental exhaustion. They feel the pain, but they ignore it and keep on going. The CLW heals that scratch, plus some of the aforementioned pain and physical stress. The spell doesn't have as dramatic an effect on a high HP character because he was already ignoring most of the pain or wounds that the CLW healed. Or, alternatively, high-level characters that have been chugging CLW potions since level 1 have built up a tolerance to positive energy, hence the reason they need to take it in "stronger doses" (CMW, CSW, CCW) for it to have an effect. :P
kenicolo 06-18-07, 07:30 PM	After many discussion i cam up with this. Gaining 1 HD every odd numbered level (first HD maxed) AND adding a variant where PC suffer some effect from loosing HP. The penalities are not decided yet but chould apply to every roll and should not get you lower than +0 bonus
Werral 06-19-07, 02:21 PM	It does. Part of what HP represents is the ability to deal with sustained damage or bad conditions, especially the stress of combat. Someone with lots of HP might not react to 8 damage, but they're still affected by it in terms of muscle stress and fatigue, as well as mental exhaustion. They feel the pain, but they ignore it and keep on going. The CLW heals that scratch, plus some of the aforementioned pain and physical stress. The spell doesn't have as dramatic an effect on a high HP character because he was already ignoring most of the pain or wounds that the CLW healed. This makes sense for boxing or similar. You know if you punched Mike Tyson he'd probably ignore it. Still, if you hit the guy with an axe I really doubt he'd "ignore it and continue". Or, alternatively, high-level characters that have been chugging CLW potions since level 1 have built up a tolerance to positive energy, hence the reason they need to take it in "stronger doses" (CMW, CSW, CCW) for it to have an effect. :P This makes a kind of sense. But you know what HP really are? Yon know when you play a computer game and you have an energy bar by your side that goes down as you get hit? That's what HP are. They are in no way a realistic system, though they are fun and balanced.
Jagyr Ebonwood 06-21-07, 10:15 AM	This makes sense for boxing or similar. You know if you punched Mike Tyson he'd probably ignore it. Still, if you hit the guy with an axe I really doubt he'd "ignore it and continue". This is where you have to remember that HP also measures you ability to minimize damage. A boxer would know how to duck and weave well enough that you just barely scratch him with the axe, and in that case whatever damage you deal him is mostly just stress on his muscles and bones caused by having to move out of the way really suddenly. Your average person can't keep up that kind of pace under those conditions, but a trained fighter with lots of hit points can. But you know what HP really are? You know when you play a computer game and you have an energy bar by your side that goes down as you get hit? That's what HP are. They are in no way a realistic system, though they are fun and balanced. I have to agree with you there. :D
Cheza 06-21-07, 12:35 PM	The problem with changing HP too much in the D&D game is that the PCs die far too often. That's not true. Do you really need to have that metoer swarm deal max. 192 (4x 6d6 fire + 4x 2d6 physical) damage? Just do be sure to kill something? Hitpoints - as they actually are - have the following concequences: 1.) Falling damage is measured by height. Per 10ft. you're falling, you are dealt 1d6 damage. So a good barbarian with a high constitution score can jump from a very, very high building and still survive it. In 3.0 there was a cap of 20d6, so that high-level barbarian could jump from a airplane. In D&D, you can survive multiple crushing walls (automatic reset) and you could step into a open fireplace / pool of acid and rest there. 2.) If two level 20 characters fight in an antimagic field, the hit with every attack because their AC doesn't increase with levels, however their fighting skill (attack bonus) does. 3.) Great differences between classes: A wizard has many disadvantages. First he only gets 1d4 life, he won't specialize on Constitution, so he will have very few hitpoints AND he won't wear any armor.. This causes MANY problems if you play at higher levels. He doesn't survive spells or an attack by monsters of an adequate level. So he MUST cast defensive spells (fly, invisibility, stoneskin), things to increase constitution. (f.e: a 11lvl wizard with Con 12 has 40 HPs; a stonegolem (CR 11) has two attacks with 2d10+9 damage = about 40 damage and a fireball or similar abilites deals 38,5 damage on average) No other monster race uses a d4 for calculate hitpoints even if they have low attack bonuses. And you could play a fine wasp with levels as a druid (it's an intelligent magical wasp). So this wasp would have more hitpoints than a wizard. ________________________________________ ____________ Meteor swarm however is a perfect example to show an alternative way. If your character has damage reduction AND fire resistance, damage is reduced seperately from each of the four meteors. A meteor deals an 21 fire damage and 7 physical damage on average (doesn't include successful saves or AC). So if you have a sufficient damage reduction, you can survive it without having 100+ hipoints. Remember that this game is supposed to be epic, in that six-foot tall humans are expected to be able to battle barn-sized dragons with 12-inch teeth! They need the extra HP to be able to pull off these epic feats. At this point, the HP system is less about realism, and more about fun. There are other roleplaying games without hitpoints per level and you might fight against dragons too. So that's not an arguement. However it supports dump hack-&-slash like DIABLO. As an example, lets take a shot from an arrow. It does 8 damage. To the level 1 character, this means that it hits him in the head, killing him instantly. To the level 10 character, this means that his shield was raised just in time to make a glacing blow, causing only minor damage. It does not mean that the level 10 character got hit in the between the eyes and just shrugged it off. So do you loose this bonus, when you are held by a spell, not capable to move an inch? How can this fighter raise his shield or dodge the blow to get less damage? Not a good idea how to explain hitpoints.
koiulpoi 06-21-07, 10:37 PM	Hitpoints increase every level because your enemies do more damage every level, assuming proper challenge ratings. It really is that simple. You need to get more powerful somehow. If you don't like hitpoints, then go make your own system that uses damage reduction instead. 1.) Falling damage is measured by height. Per 10ft. you're falling, you are dealt 1d6 damage. So a good barbarian with a high constitution score can jump from a very, very high building and still survive it. In 3.0 there was a cap of 20d6, so that high-level barbarian could jump from a airplane. In D&D, you can survive multiple crushing walls (automatic reset) and you could step into a open fireplace / pool of acid and rest there. I don't have the link to the article right now, but it's been proven several times that D&D stops resembling any sort of reality right around 4th-5th level. It's fantasy, get over it. There are other roleplaying games without hitpoints per level and you might fight against dragons too. So that's not an arguement. However it supports dump hack-&-slash like DIABLO. So... how do you measure the damage you've done to the dragon and it's done to you? Wound points? Vitality modifiers? Call it whatever you will, it's still the same in the end, an abstraction of taking damage.
Jagyr Ebonwood 06-22-07, 09:36 AM	So... how do you measure the damage you've done to the dragon and it's done to you? Wound points? Vitality modifiers? Call it whatever you will, it's still the same in the end, an abstraction of taking damage. Yeah, people get all uppity about "HP doesn't make sense!" and "It's not realistic!", and then they complain when I slash at them with a butcher knife every time their PC gets hit. :rolleyes: Darn hypocrites.
The_Levitator 06-23-07, 11:53 AM	While most of the players in my group have been playing for more than 20 years, HP still "feels" a bit wonky to us. The only thing we really don't like is how long it takes a high level character to eventually suffer in combat. So, I came up with a system that doesn't change how HP work, but does impose penalties to simulate the wear and tear of mortal combat. I call it Battle Fatigue. It also corresponds with our Relative Health System that we use to color code tokens to indicate how they are holding up physically in combat. Basically, as you take HP damage, it will eventually affect your STR and DEX. It looks like this (the colors at the end are what we use to mark the tokens in Maptools, a VT): 76-100% of Total HP: Healthy - Green 51-75% of Total HP: Light Battle Fatigue (-1 STR, -1 DEX) - Yellow 26-50% of Total HP: Moderate Battle Fatigue (-2 STR, -2 DEX) - Orange 25% or less of Total HP: Heavy Battle Fatigue (-4 STR, -4 DEX) - Red We've been using this system for more than 2 years and it works great for our group, which would be considered a highly cinematic, magic rarity-style world. Magic is every bit as powerful in our world as Core, but just rarer. We also go epic at 12th to try and minimize the "power creep". Our campaigns generally tend to climax around 12th anyways. Maybe something like this will help you to make combat a little more dicey without turning the HP system on its head. I know that my players are much more strategic when engaging, and they are also more sure that they actually need to engage in combat before just rushing in. This system does seem to discourage the "hey, it's breathing, let's kill it!" mentality.
ShinoAburame 06-23-07, 08:34 PM	Why not just lower the hit die? Wizard/Sorcerer: d2 Rogue/Bard: d3 Cleric/Druid/Ranger: d4 Fighter/Paladn: d6 Barbarian: d8
Kradlo 06-23-07, 08:42 PM	Lowering hit points will increase character mortality rates. This means that either your players are spending most of their time (and loot) resurrecting their dead comrades, or they're busily rolling up new characters each session. Also, take the time to do a spell check on your writing. You'll be taken more seriously if you write above the 3rd grade level.
kenicolo 06-25-07, 10:01 AM	sorry for the selling mkistakes but i am not an english speaking person. so don't bother telling me
koiulpoi 06-25-07, 03:55 PM	sorry for the selling mkistakes but i am not an english speaking person. so don't bother telling me Spellcheck is free. Go download firefox for the easiest solution - it'll give you spellcheck right in your browser! I don't understand this mentality. Not one bit. I am a native English speaker, but I am learning another language (Japanese). Not once have I thought to myself "it'll be ok if I don't spell things right". I want to be able to sound like them as much as possible so that I will be taken more seriously, and so I won't sound like an idiot. Plain and simple. Spelling mistakes make you look uneducated, and some people will not stop heckling you about them, even knowing you're not a native English speaker. In fact, in that post even, you spelled mistakes with a k - right next to i, meaning your finger slipped and you didn't care. There's no excuse for that.
Jagyr Ebonwood 06-26-07, 08:40 AM	I've actually considered creating a MUP and prefacing every post with "English isn't my native language, sorry if I make mistakes" just so I can get some of the knee-jerk praise that seems so prevalent here. How many times have you seen a "I don't speak English" post followed by a "You speak English better than us Americans!" post?
ShinoAburame 06-26-07, 07:03 PM	I think the posters who spend time talking about spelling errors just shouldn't post at all. The time it takes to pointout bad spelling they could be spending giving advise, opinion, or posting somewhere else. I think it's a good idea comrade.
Bobson 06-26-07, 07:32 PM	Reducing HP for the sake of reducing HP doesn't work well, because you also have to reduce damage from all sources proportionally in order to keep something resembling game balance. Better would be to figure out why you want to reduce HP and come up with a better method for doing so. Kenicolo said (paraphrasing) "to give my players greater respect for their lives and the lives of the others they encounter". This isn't really clear enough to come up with a solution, though. Perhaps his players are simply wanton engines of mass destruction. Everything they meet either gives them useful information or dies (or both). Or maybe they're not so destructive, but they have no problems with simply killing anyone they don't like. Or maybe they're no worse than a standard D&D party, but he's tired of them slaughtering goblin tribes. Or they're high level and think nothing of casting "True res" on themselves twice a day. Lowering HP doesn't necessarily make players respect life more - it just makes them die more, or be more cautious in how much they take on at once. "Respect" implies more of a roleplaying aspect - i.e. choices the players have to make. Maybe the town guards frown on murder - choosing between spending time in jail*(and whatever other punishment is set) and becoming known as wanted escaped criminals (with bounties on their heads) would certainly cause the party to reconsider random violence. Maybe they slaughter a goblin nation, so Maglubiyet (the goblin god) sends an avatar after them or curses them. Kenicolo, if you can give a specific example, you can get specific advice.
Dan Hemmens 06-27-07, 05:48 AM	If your players aren't showing enough respect for the lives of their characters, or of NPCs, ask yourself this: How often do you throw random fights at them. If your answer is anything other than "never", you've found out why your players aren't showing any respect for life.
Jagyr Ebonwood 06-27-07, 04:10 PM	I think the posters who spend time talking about spelling errors just shouldn't post at all. And I think the people who spend time complaining about people who point out spelling errors shouldn't post at all. Nyah nyah. ;)
kenicolo 06-30-07, 09:49 AM	Reducing HP for the sake of reducing HP doesn't work well, because you also have to reduce damage from all sources proportionally in order to keep something resembling game balance. Better would be to figure out why you want to reduce HP and come up with a better method for doing so. Kenicolo said (paraphrasing) "to give my players greater respect for their lives and the lives of the others they encounter". This isn't really clear enough to come up with a solution, though. Perhaps his players are simply wanton engines of mass destruction. Everything they meet either gives them useful information or dies (or both). Or maybe they're not so destructive, but they have no problems with simply killing anyone they don't like. Or maybe they're no worse than a standard D&D party, but he's tired of them slaughtering goblin tribes. Or they're high level and think nothing of casting "True res" on themselves twice a day. Lowering HP doesn't necessarily make players respect life more - it just makes them die more, or be more cautious in how much they take on at once. "Respect" implies more of a roleplaying aspect - i.e. choices the players have to make. Maybe the town guards frown on murder - choosing between spending time in jail*(and whatever other punishment is set) and becoming known as wanted escaped criminals (with bounties on their heads) would certainly cause the party to reconsider random violence. Maybe they slaughter a goblin nation, so Maglubiyet (the goblin god) sends an avatar after them or curses them. Kenicolo, if you can give a specific example, you can get specific advice. I only thinks that deciding to hit someone with your sword sould not make you think :" i wont kill him with mys sword, he has enough hp!" Cauz a hit should always make you fear to reall hurt baldy your foe
HuManBing 07-17-07, 10:48 PM	There is a variant rule in the Unearthed Arcana book which suggests that healing magic only converts HP damage into nonlethal damage. PCs heal nonlethal damage at a rate of their Character Level hp per hour. So healing magic now no longer helps your character in a fight at all - he'll still be walking around with the same amount of damage (except it's nonlethal instead of normal). When his hp reach a certain amount, he's going to fall unconscious, which is equally bad. This will make your players much more careful about getting into combat, and conversely it will make your NPCs very careful as well. Once they DO get into combat, healing does not help. Once they get OUT of combat, healing helps them recover much faster, but still on an order of hours to a few days. The overall effect of this is to slow the progress down as PCs take time to recover from battles. If you like a campaign that's focussed much more on noncombat problem solving this could work. But I made the mistake of using this mechanic in a time-sensitive mission (the PCs had to smuggle NPCs across a military border in one night). They did not appreciate that, as you can imagine.
bitemytail 07-20-07, 02:01 PM	Make cure spells heal a percent of damage instead of a fixed value. Mission accomplished.
High Octane 07-20-07, 10:11 PM	D&D is a system meant for having hale and hearty folks who get blasted in the electric chair and then ask "Is that the best you can do you pansies?" like 4 or 5 times. A system emphasizing a players mortality would probably be better handled in a different system.
Sylian 07-21-07, 12:14 AM	Make crits more common. Play in a world where there are no clerics allied with the party (I do that. It has worked out fine the two battles we had, altough one PC almost died in each battle.).
Ace_of_Night 07-22-07, 08:41 AM	I've always preferred World of Darkness and Orpheus (Both from White Wolf) for their health systems, as it would just need a round or two to get killed if you took full damage from some blows, and the trick is to avoid getting hit instead of just getting hit all you like and survive. However, this is D&D, where epic characters have 200 hp and can take a dragon's breath weapon right on and live to tell the tale. There's no helping this, unless you plan on remaking the whole of D&D where things do noly a few points damage, everyone has only a few hp, and armor/dex/etc. become much more important. But this might well take you a very long time. The only plausible idea I've seen so far is the one where the players (And the enemies too, to make it fair) become less able when they're down to low hp. You'll have to work out the details yourself if you want to do something like this, but like: 75% of max HP: -1 on attack and damage rolls, DC(5+level) concentration check to cast spells. (or concentration check because of another reason, if higher) 50% of max HP: -2 on attack and damage rolls, move 25% more slowly, DC (8+level) concentration check to cast spells. (same as above) 25% of max hp: -4 on attack and damage rolls, move 50% more slowly, DC (12+level) concentration check to cast spells. (same as above) 10% of max hp: 50% chance to miss with attacks and spells. Also, the above is also true, if you have 200 hp and get hit for 20, the wounds are about as severe as when you have 10 hp and get 1 damage. The only thing that increased hp represents is the amount of damage that you can avoid, and the amount of damage is just how much stronger the attack is. Thus, a 20 damage attack would inflict a huge, mortal wound upon something with 10 hp, whereas it only puts a scratch on someone with 200 hp) With the above system, you can also give some description whenever the players or the enemies get below some health percentage. When the enemy is below 25% max health:"The enemy seems to have trouble fighting with his wounds, and the large cut in his leg also appears to hamper his movement" or something more.. artistic :) Edit: I've made up the percentage style table out of the top of my head, if you're going to implement it, make sure you testplay it first. If someone does testplay it, a PM with feedback about it would be great ^^
Rhialto 07-22-07, 09:04 AM	All this talk of 200 hp... By the time you have that many hp, you are chalenging the GODS THEMSELVES in terms of raw power. In real terms, the most awesome human on the planet now as we speak is probably no higher than 7th level, 99% of the human race is 1st level, and the number of people who could be considered 5th level or higher can probably be numbered in the low hundreds. And that's with a human population touching 6 billion. D&D'd problem isn't that high level characters can survive inhuman amounts of damage. Considering that they (6th level+ characters) ARE at an inhuman level of power, that's entirely reasonable. D&D's chief problem is a really coarse level of granularity at the levels of power than represent non-superhero levels of power.
Ace_of_Night 07-22-07, 09:31 AM	Barbarian with 18 con at level 20: 20d12+80 with average rolls (6.5) and 12 hp at first level gives 215 hp.. I don't think that 18 con (with magic items) for a level 20 barbarian is much, do you? If he has all 11-12's and a con score of 18 he can even go over 200 hp at 13th level, admitted though that that is a one in a trillion chance or so (I'm too lazy at the moment to get my calculator and actually put this in :P) But no, at level 20 you aren't even challenging the gods themselves, you're only halfway there.
TheAnthroDM 07-23-07, 04:40 AM	Use CON score as HP and add the Con Mod every level(Including first). Regardless of character class.
CryoSilver 07-24-07, 09:06 PM	I think a good way to look at hp is to use an example: Rambo. Rambo slaughters low-level guards in droves; one or two shots each. But does he ever get hit? Hell no. Every bullet that misses him is still reducing his hp, because it's an abstraction. Likewise, every bullet that grazes him and he just shrugs it off is still dealing full damage, but Rambo is so bad ass (has so many hit points) that his sheer aura of being bad-ass mysteriously makes those bulets veer away from his vital organs. But when those few (theoretical) bullets actually hit him, those take away his last 10-20 hp, and NOW he's hurting. Harry Potter, on the other hand, is a spellcaster, and is not nearly as stacked as Rambo. Therefore, he is a punk-ass that gets knocked down by even low-level attacks. Low level characters do not have an aura of bad-ass-ity like Rambo. Likewise, spellcasters (unless thay have high Con scores) are not nearly ripped enough to produce an aura capable of deflecting bullets. Notice how the nerdy guy (wizard) always gets knocked out in action movies after just a few shots miss him? Low hp, high level. Physical build (represented by Con and hp) is directly proportional to how bas-ass your character is, and therefore, characters with higher Con and hp are more bad-ass, and more bullets/swords/arrows miss or just inflict incredibly sexy, but superficial, wounds. So, if you use this somewhat whimsical interpretation, yes, characters can indeed be killed by one or two serious wounds, but that's just their last few hit points. All their other hit points are their "bad-ass buffer."
Need_A_Life 07-26-07, 07:23 AM	You want even the toughest fighter to risk to die from a lucky hit? Savage Worlds. You have 3 Wound Points. Every four points of damage on the dice equals once wound point. So, if you get punched by the incredibly strong fighter, he'll roll 1d12 [actually a strength check, nothing to do with weapon of choice], subtract your toughness (which is between 3 and 9, depending). For every four points, you lose a wound. >1 but less than 4, and you're "shaken". Now, more powerful weapons will deal more damage (most powerful melee weapon: is [dice]+10), meaning that even the toughest person will likely take at least one wound. 3 wounds is the lowest you can have and still survive, any more and you're reduced to unconsciousness or death, depending on the force of the blow. --- Ranged attacks are killer. The to-hit roll is against Target Number 4, whereas to hit with a melee weapon is opposed by your parry (2+[½ your Fighting dice].) Really, look into Savage Worlds. It's a great system, with the purpose of being adaptable to ANY setting (modern, fantasy, sci-fi, horror, etc.)
KrisTheGreat 07-28-07, 02:19 PM	i would take a look at the wound point system it is well balanced between realism and fantasy it works wells in many ways it allows the warrior classes to still be relevent at high and epic lvls and adds mortality in a much better way into the game check it out
tantric 07-28-07, 03:41 PM	I don't understand this mentality. Not one bit. I am a native English speaker, but I am learning another language (Japanese). Not once have I thought to myself "it'll be ok if I don't spell things right". I want to be able to sound like them as much as possible so that I will be taken more seriously, and so I won't sound like an idiot. Plain and simple. "it's not that the dog speaks well, but that the dog speaks at all" - japanese speakers are usually polite to mostly incomprehensible americans, impressed that they even tried to learn the language. considering that you sound like an idiot now, in english, i don't expect that to change in japanese. language is about communication, not an excuse to judge and ridicule.
CryoSilver 07-28-07, 05:58 PM	And the French (at least in Paris) are derisive and disrespectful if you have an American accent. The point is, if one is going to communicate in English, one should communicate correctly in English. Now, no one is expecting non-native speakers to know not to split infinitives, or avoid ending sentences with prepositions, or even the crrect usage of "its" compared to "it's," but this is a forum, not a chat room. Spell check is a standard feature in most word processors and the latest version of Firefox, and there is no need to rush out a post. Lack of proficiency in a language means you need to spend more time making sure you've got it right, not that you have carte blanche to mangle it in your unnecessary rush to just say something. That said, there is also no need to attack people for their lack of proficiency in the English language. Courtesy should be exhibited by both sides: non-native speakers should make an effort to fomat and spell correctly while native speakers should not be douchebags and insult the mistakes that make it through.
trapspringer 07-28-07, 08:03 PM	language is about communication, not an excuse to judge and ridicule. Striving for anything less than excellence in communication is foolish. Imprecisions in language have led to a lot of needless strife. That doesn't mean that we, as a community, have a right to demand perfection from every post, but I think we can certainly expect an effort.
Saurus33 07-28-07, 09:11 PM	The way I deal with this is that hp is a measure of the positive energy flowing in a character. The reason a 200hp barbarian can take more damage than a 6hp commoner is due to the fact that they have more positive energy flowing around and it is disrupted less easily. This also explains why the undead can be hurt (cutting them to pieces disrupts the negative energy powering them) and why potions have less affect to high level characters (They need more positive energy to restore the high amounts they have lost). I mean, look at Boromir in Lord Of The Rings, He had so much positive energy that it took three arrows to disrupt it beyond repair. I do subscribe to the theory that HP is virtual as well, to a point.
Moniker 08-03-07, 03:00 PM	In my game, we use a variation of the Unearthed Arcana rules and the Game of Thrones d20. It goes a little something like this: Warriors get 10+con at first level/5+con at every level thereafter Experts get 6+con at first level/3+con at every level thereafter Adepts get 4+con at first level/4+con at every level thereafter Now, you're probably looking at this and saying, "wow, that makes weapons and spells way dangerous!" because Hit Points are lower. Here is the caveat... Armor is used as Damage Reduction by weapon type in my game. As on the table listed here: http://deismaar.pbwiki.com/Armor+Resistances+by+Weapon+Type Armor Class in my game is your total Reflex save, plus shield and any miscellaneous modifiers. All damage dice from spells (of which there is little spellcasting in the game itself) is reduced by half. Meaning, a normal 5th level Adept's fireball does 5d6 under normal 3.5 rules. We do it as 1d6+12 (1st level gets the d6, each level thereafter takes +3 damage, so 4*3=12 +1d6. Less variation... Weapons damage remains the same, making weapon combat much more deadly. This also brings weapon damage in line with spell damage on a critical hit or less, depending on the roll. There is more variation with the weapon damage, but its boosted up more (meaning, the dice aren't halved as with spells) so a 10th level Warrior is just as effective as a 10th level Adept. This makes combat more swift, it keeps the players on their toes, they focus more on roleplay, as opposed to losing immersion due to lengthy dice rolling, and they play much more wisely and tactically knowing that their weapons and armor have real effects on other people with diff. types of armor (instead of the age-old "my level 5 fighter can take12 hits from a dagger at maximum damage before even dying").
Demangel 08-05-07, 08:17 PM	For many years I have tried to wrestle with the concept of more realism in my RPG's... One of the key issues I have always had with RPG's was in the concept of hit points. To cut to the chase, after a lot of experimentation and testing I felt that the HP system used by most RPG's, D&D included is a sensible one, providing the DM and players have a sense that the DM can mod the damage however they need in order for realism to be preserved. In my own games, a critical hit always has a chance of slaying an NPC class (IE warrior instead of fighter/barb/pal/ranger/etc). And sometimes has a chance of slaying a PC (depends on the enemy and scenario). I explain to my PC's the following things so it helps them understand the nature of combat in D&D as it relates to the real world. 1: Combat in D&D is an abstraction, if you do not describe your characters actions specifically, you can rest assured that by stating "my character attacks that guy." Your character will do his/her best to do exactly that in a way that will leads to the most effective kill. 2: A round and an attack in D&D represents not just a single swing of the sword, but rather a series of attacks, over the course of a round/turn/whatever, you may hit or miss many times, even if your BAB says you only have one attack, you may strike the enemy several times in the round but the damage will only equal up to the max of the weapon for one attack. Sometimes this means you hit once for full damage, or 10 times for little scratches worth of damage... How many times can you swing a weapon effectively in combat in 10 seconds time? I have studied the realistic use of many medieval weapons as a hobby since I was 13... I can safely say that over the course of ten seconds, you may be attacking and being attacked many many times in ten seconds time. So in the abstracted form in D&D, it might equal one well placed hit, or several grazing hits. I carry this over to most of my combat descriptions when I'm taking the time to describe the actions... I might say for example "you sqaure off against the goblin and after trading a few innefective blows, you manage to land a one two combo to it dealing XYZ HP. The goblin howls in pain as each cut was deap, but it doesn't appear too hurt to keep fighing..." When the goblin counters "The goblin whirls it's spiked club around while your attacking it, and despite taking several hits from you, manages to connect and pain shoots up your thigh from a grazing blow... Not enough to break the skin or the bone, but you can feel a bruise already forming that will last for days... mark off 4 HP please." 3: Only the last Hit die worth of HP's actually count as your conscious HP. If your a fighter with a D10 base HD. it means you have 10+Con bonus worth of actual hit points. Everything after this represents your characters ability to deflect/avoid or minimize the effect of blows that would normally effect those last 10+ HP. These will be explained away as grazing blows, or flesh wounds that serve more as distraction than actual immediate injury... Since most of these attacks will STILL hurt you in some way, they still need to be treated as wounds... An open cut is an open cut... even if it's not in a vital location. 4: If you suffer an injurry that should be logically fatal or maiming, I don't care if you have 300 HP, you will suffer the penalty... IF a giant pushes a boulder off a cliff, and you fail the reflex save to dodge it... the wounds you suffer can and may be fatal or maiming... if you wind up on the executioners block and he swings an AXE at your neck, unless something stops him, your dead... Even if that axe only deals 1d12 HP... If you or an NPC makes a called attack to a vital location, the attack will be counted as a critical if it hits (with a modified AC of course), and at the DM's discretion, the hit may do a lot more than just HP. If you declare an attack at an orcs neck and pass the modified attack roll, the attack will be an automatic critical, and if the orc fails a fortitude save, he will die from having his arteries severed. The same works in reverse for attacks made against you. 5: Anything that doesn't make sense will be overruled no matter what the numbers or rules say. If for example your standing in a narrow passage, and a dragon uses it's fire breath weapon and blows it down the tunnel, there is NO reflex saving throw possible unless your carrying something that can serve as cover against just an attack as there is no where for you to go to avoid the flame before it reaches you. Though perhaps using a shield with fire resistance or something might help... 6: Like #5 anything that somehow interferes with the story or the progress of said story in any way will be modded by the DM to allow for things to continue in a way that makes sense. This doesn't mean the DM will save you, but rather that any roll, or event that would serve to ruin the story of the adventure in any way can be overruled at any time... If your PC suffers a bad roll for example, I may reverse it... But If your character makes a good roll to do something that really shouldn't be possible, I may reverse that also. 7: The object of the rules is to help us all tell a story and imagine an adventure in our minds eye. The rules are an aid, and are not what the game is about. The more you pay attention to the rules, the less you will pay attention to the game. Instead, if your thinking in character, I will reward you in character... if your thinking about your characters stats when you act, I will be penalizing you in stats where appropriate. Your Character wouldn't know what hit points are... If you know that your character has enough HP to take a spike trap on a chest like a walk in the park... it doesn't mean your Character does, and if you trigger the trap assuming your PC will just shrug off the damage it deals, I will instead assume your PC didn't care about getting his fingers skewered, and while you might only take 1d8 damage or something, your hand or hands will be useless until they can be healed or otherwise tended to... Put that in your pipe and smoke it :) As you can see, I decided to work within the rules, and simply use my power as DM to make fair assumptions about the abstractions intended by said rules. If something should be deadly, it can still be deadly, no matter how many HP you have... You don't have to decrease HP's, you only have to think realistically about when you apply those HP... HP do not apply in situations where the PC cannot defend themselves, or would otherwise be breaking the "assumed" laws of nature by surviving. As mentioned above, even if you have 300 HP, I'm not going to make the headsman strike at you 30 times or more to take your head off... One will do... If on the other hand you somehow break free of the ropes binding you to the headsmans chopping block and can assume a position to defend yourself... Well... Then your HP will come into play again. If your struck by lightning and you have to magical or realistic reason why you wouldn't die or at least suffer horrific injuries, those injuries or even death WILL occur, even if a bolt of magic lightning normally only deals a few dozen HP damage, that damage (from real lightning) is fatal. Thus one can consider all characters (NPC and PC) to have three HP values: 1: Subdual - Stunning hits, reflect pain, concussion to the brain, and other factors that cause no real physical damage, but tons of short term disabling effects. (As a hose rule, every hit die worth of non magical subdual damage taken by a character equals 1 HP of actual HP damage... IE just because a non monk is punching and kicking, all those bruises and blows do deal some physical trauma... even if it's not enough to kill normally). 2: Hit points - Your characters ability to avoid fatal blows, and reduce their effectiveness when they do land. It's not magic, it's skill, luck, and agility coming into play. IF your somehow incapacitated all HP's dealt to you will be considered to be hitting your final HD worth of HP's regardless of how many HP you actually have. 3: First/level HD worth of HP - Your base HP's are your characters actual physical Hit points. Only by raising your Con score can you raise this value. Any time your incapacitated or other wise unable to defend yourself, all attacks made against you, including magical ones, will be made against these scant few HP. If your Level 15 fighter with a con bonus of +4, with (amazingly rolled 10's all 15 levels of advancement) 210HP (15*10=150, 15*4 = 60, 60+150 = 210) is sleeping for example, and a rogue sneaks into your bed chamber and doesn't wake you... raises his short sword and impales you in your sleep, the attack will be an automatic critical (or whatever rule for coup de grace I feel applies), and if it deals more than 14HP, your character dies/or is knocked to negative HP and will potentially bleed out and die in their sleep. Without any chance of fighting back... If the Rogue decides to strike again to make sure you don't wake up ever again, it will likely kill you on the second blow. If by some chance the blow doesn't deal 14HP, you will wake up, likely seriously wounded... What happens then depends on the rules and the situation... Indeed, the first combat round after waking up would likely be a surprise round, and you would be flat footed at best... meaning your likely to die anyway... If by some chance you do rise to your feet, I will adjust your HP to reflect the serious injury you suffer from having a 2 foot chunk of iron stuck through your vitals... when you were sleeping. It may be a lot to explain, but it does the trick... The nifty thing is if you take the time to go over these concepts with your players, many players will be encouraged to describe their actions more in the hopes you will use your abstracted assumptions in their favor more often in a fight and grant them dramatic 1hit kills against things that would normally take more hits to die... Yes some of this borders on house rules... but it works, and can turned on and off as the need arises... With the addition of Action points, allowing the PC to potentially negate the effects of a fatal injury by using an action point (better describe it dramatically) I may for example overturn the fatal result and allow your PC to take normal HP damage instead, but only when the situation allows for it to work that way.
Fireclave 08-06-07, 01:22 AM	lots of stuff Yes some of this borders on house rules... but it works, and can turned on and off as the need arises... Actually, a lot of that are house rules. Particularly 4, 5, 6, 7 of section 1, the text between section 1 and 2, and all of section 2. But they seem to be very good houserules for playing a more realistic campaign.