Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 12-13-07, 05:48 PM	So my thought is this: -Every player (and maybe the DM) keeps the character's starting ability scores somewhere, so that someone needn't think, "did I start with 15 strength and 14 con, and put the gain into strength when I gained level 4 to get my current pre-bonus 16 strength and 14 con, or did I start with 16 strength and 13 con, and put my level 4 gain into con?" -Starting point buy would be fairly low -- say, 22. -At every level up, you gain a point-buy point. You can put it into any ability score. For instance, if you start as a half-orc with 18 strength, you have 10 strength points. At level 2, you gain a point, which you can put into strength to have a point buy of 11 points. If you also put your level 3 and level 4 point gains into strength, you raise your total to 13, which raises your pre-racial strength from 16 to 17, and your post-racial strength from 18 to 19. -This is not a replacement for the increases gained at levels divisible by 4: it is in addition to it. Increases gained from levels divisible by 4 do not affect the cost of point buys (for instance, if you are a human who raised wisdom from 16 to 17 from a level 4 ability score gain, but haven't put any of your point-buy points into wisdom, then you still have 10 points in wisdom, not 13.) So basically, at level 1, your characters are basically 22 point buy characters. At level 10, they're 31 point buy. At level 20, they're 41 point buy. Magical gear might be reduced a bit at higher levels, and challenges a bit at lower levels. Thoughts?
ZiggZagg 12-13-07, 07:13 PM	...seems a bit overly complicated to fix something that doesn't seem broken. Maybe I can understand a bit if you explain why you wish to try this
ppirilla 12-13-07, 10:50 PM	It's a nice, organic system for growing ability scores, something I wish had more of an impact in the game as-is. I worry, however, that you're adding needless complication with keeping the +1/4 levels seperate. I might do away with it completely, or at the least make the score count toward future point buy costs.
Asurya 12-14-07, 08:44 AM	I would join ppirilla on this one, the point based abilities are just great. As a DM I give points every 4 level to improve your scores... but what you're showing here make much more sense! so yeah, get rid of the '/4 lvl' thing and you're set (maybe increase a bit the points given each level at a certain point in progression (say 2/lvl past 8th, and 3/lvl past 16th)
slwoyach 12-17-07, 11:16 AM	I think that's a good idea, don't know if I'd use it though. What I really want to see is better rules for aging's effect on stats and other abilities.
Dog_O_War 12-17-07, 11:36 AM	This flows very nice; it prevents really high stats with some simple book-keeping, but allows people to up stats that would otherwise get ignored. Very nice adjustments; I might propose this to a DM buddy of mine; he's always playing with the rules in this fashion.
Dawnslayer 12-21-07, 10:11 PM	Indeed my good man, I think you’ve done it! I like it, I Love it. The way we’ve been doing it is to say when I character starts with a 16 intelligence and doesn’t really play like he has a 16 in Int, we say that is his potential Intelligence score, he just doesn’t use it all, he must grow into it, but a much faster learner than most everyone else, so those that do know more them him now better enjoy it while it lasts. But this, this is good, if I use this, and I’ll discuss it with my players, we will have to allow retroactive skill points from permanent increase to Intelligence. …..yyYesss!
navar100 12-22-07, 11:02 AM	1) It's not a sin for a 1st level character to have an 18. 2) If characters are going to have high scores anyway as the levels progress, just roll or use 32+ point buy to start with.
JulesCARV 12-22-07, 02:16 PM	I think that to make this all a bit more coherent, I might create a new bonus category: "experience bonus." Experience bonuses to ability scores stack with themselves and everything else. They may not be obtained through magical items, wishes, or anything else. The only way they can be obtained is through gaining a +1 experience bonus at levels divisible by 4, and by gaining a +1 experience bonus to a given ability score from epic feats ("epic strength," "epic constitution" etc). Experience bonuses to intelligence, unlike enhancement bonuses, can lead to increased skill point gained at subsequent levels. Basically, experience bonuses are almost the exact same as increases granted by levels divisible by 4, but are just different enough to avoid confusion between them and increases from increasing your point buy pool.
archerpwr 12-22-07, 08:27 PM	Why bother? Point buy increase will barely increase the main stat. All you're really going to increase is the tertiary stats. No real in game effect due to the way point buy works.
Dog_O_War 12-23-07, 12:22 AM	Why bother? Point buy increase will barely increase the main stat. All you're really going to increase is the tertiary stats. No real in game effect due to the way point buy works. It has a major effect if you have more than one stat that is important. Not everyone plays one good stat; characters I make from low points buy would benefit immensely from this system.
trapspringer 12-23-07, 12:28 AM	That's a good point, Dog_O_War. I wonder what implications it carries... I mean, MAD's a *****, but on the other hand classes with MAD are only balanced(ish) by the fact that they can't roxxor at everything because of their reliance on so many stats.
archerpwr 12-26-07, 04:33 PM	It has a major effect if you have more than one stat that is important. Not everyone plays one good stat; characters I make from low points buy would benefit immensely from this system. Right. Of course, I didn't think of that. I try to design for as much SAD as possible. I don't build PCs that need more than 2 good stats most of the time.
Dog_O_War 12-27-07, 04:06 PM	Right. Of course, I didn't think of that. I try to design for as much SAD as possible. I don't build PCs that need more than 2 good stats most of the time. I tend to make PC's with no major faults in any one area, seeking an average over a "maxed stat" scenario. Basically a fighter in say, a 25pts buy scenario would have stats like the following STR: 14 DEX: 13 CON: 14 INT: 14 WIS: 10 CHA: 8 The system suggested would have a profound effect on my choices, as I could raise charisma or wisdom or whatever without sacrificing my other stats' progressions.
DarkRhystar 12-29-07, 01:15 PM	So my thought is this: -Every player (and maybe the DM) keeps the character's starting ability scores somewhere, so that someone needn't think, "did I start with 15 strength and 14 con, and put the gain into strength when I gained level 4 to get my current pre-bonus 16 strength and 14 con, or did I start with 16 strength and 13 con, and put my level 4 gain into con?" Why? What need do you have to keep track of original scores? HP gained from increased Constitution later is retroactive. About the only thing that really changes is Intelligence gained as skill points aren't gained retroactively. -Starting point buy would be fairly low -- say, 22. -At every level up, you gain a point-buy point. You can put it into any ability score. For instance, if you start as a half-orc with 18 strength, you have 10 strength points. At level 2, you gain a point, which you can put into strength to have a point buy of 11 points. If you also put your level 3 and level 4 point gains into strength, you raise your total to 13, which raises your pre-racial strength from 16 to 17, and your post-racial strength from 18 to 19. -This is not a replacement for the increases gained at levels divisible by 4: it is in addition to it. Increases gained from levels divisible by 4 do not affect the cost of point buys (for instance, if you are a human who raised wisdom from 16 to 17 from a level 4 ability score gain, but haven't put any of your point-buy points into wisdom, then you still have 10 points in wisdom, not 13.) So basically, at level 1, your characters are basically 22 point buy characters. At level 10, they're 31 point buy. At level 20, they're 41 point buy. Magical gear might be reduced a bit at higher levels, and challenges a bit at lower levels. Thoughts? I don't like it. High stats are most important at low level. A couple points in Constitution can mean the difference between life and death early on. A couple points in Strength can mean the difference between a dead enemy and a live enemy. Lowering initial stats for higher ones later seems backwards.
JulesCARV 12-29-07, 02:27 PM	Why? What need do you have to keep track of original scores? HP gained from increased Constitution later is retroactive. About the only thing that really changes is Intelligence gained as skill points aren't gained retroactively. Basically, the point is to keep track of point buy. Say you're a human wizard with 10 points in intelligence -- i.e., a score of 16. At level 2, you put a point in, for 11 points. At level 3, the same, for a score or 12 points. Level 4, 13 points, raising the score to 17. Also, at level 4, you get a level up increase, raising your intelligence to 18. Now, the idea is that you should remember that it's an 18 thanks to a level-up increase, and not due to point buy. That way, you know that you only have 13 points in intelligence, not 16 points as the 18 implies, so you can, for instance, put another point into it, raising it to 14, when you gain level 5. Although I actually phrased it poorly. What's really important to keep track of is not initial ability scores, but rather one's "point-buy account." Keeping track of initial ability scores isn't so important. Keeping track of the point-buy account, and making sure you don't pollute it with any other sources such as level divisible by four ability increases, is the important part. You're right that my phrasing and motives were a bit confusing there.
DarkRhystar 12-29-07, 02:32 PM	Basically, the point is to keep track of point buy. Say you're a human wizard with 10 points in intelligence -- i.e., a score of 16. At level 2, you put a point in, for 11 points. At level 3, the same, for a score or 12 points. Level 4, 13 points, raising the score to 17. Also, at level 4, you get a level up increase, raising your intelligence to 18. Now, the idea is that you should remember that it's an 18 thanks to a level-up increase, and not due to point buy. That way, you know that you only have 13 points in intelligence, not 16 points as the 18 implies, so you can, for instance, put another point into it, raising it to 14, when you gain level 5. Although I actually phrased it poorly. What's really important to keep track of is not initial ability scores, but rather one's "point-buy account." Keeping track of initial ability scores isn't so important. Keeping track of the point-buy account, and making sure you don't pollute it with any other sources such as level divisible by four ability increases, is the important part. You're right that my phrasing and motives were a bit confusing there. Ah, I misunderstood that part. I thought you were saying that you needed to keep track of your original ability scores in a normal game (non-house ruled game). A different misunderstanding than the one above, but one none-the-less. I still think this idea is a tad backwards.