Luck Points [Archive] - Wizards Community

Luck Points [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Storyteller13
10-16-04, 05:03 AM I'm instituting a system of "luck points" for the characters in my campaign. They get one point per level per day. Basically what the points are for are heroic actions. You can blow a luck point to get an automatic hit (but not a critical), to add +10 to a skill check, that kind of thing. What advantages and/or disadvantages are there to this system?
Lina_Inverse
10-16-04, 07:01 AM theres already action points.and one per level per day?you realise none of your pcs will ever actully MISS?yeah this system is not good,you need one that does say I=WIN.
DizzyDawg
10-16-04, 08:55 AM That depends on their level, if you are giving 1 point/level/day. How dangerous is your campaign? Do you want thm to be heroic and do amazing things? Or do they simply need the luck to remain alive?

If they need the luck to remain alive from session to session, you may want to consider toning down the challenge level of your game. A number of games have similar ideas including some D&D variants. Both DC Heroes and Marvel heroes allowed players to burn experience points to improve rolls before the dice were thrown, or to subtract damage from an attack. While they are all nice, one question to ask before deciding is: do the NPC's also have the advantage of having a pool of luck points to burn? What's fair is fair. Once again, do the PC's seem to need an edge? Reducing the challenge level, i.e., lowering the CR of attackers and/or the DC of ability checks and saves will have the same overall effect as instituting luck points. But it leaves the decisions in your control and doesn't require a change in the rules.
nat1088
10-16-04, 11:42 AM As mentioned by Lina_Inverse, I'd suggest sticking with Action Points. They are playtested and they seem sound. They're not as common and they will make a difference when used. Alternatively, there is a system I've heard about where players have a "Luck" score, and they can add the modifier from that to a d20 roll once every so often, maybe 1/encounter, or, if they all roll highly for that, you could limit it to 1/adventure, 1/session, or something similar.
Hitokiri Battousai
10-18-04, 01:28 PM I've come up with a sort of Luck system in my campaign... everyone has a "Luck" score, as was mentioned... its just a straight d20 though, not 3d6. I let my players choose to take 10 on it if they want, so that way they'll have no luck, niether good or bad. Anyways, once per day, you can attempt a Luck check against a DC 10... if you're successful, you get to reroll the last roll you made, but using a smaller die. If you have a +1 luck bonus, you roll 1d12+8. If you have a +2, you roll 1d10+10, and so forth, with a +5 letting you roll 1d4+16.

Now, my favorite side of this system is if someone has bad luck... if that's the case, once per day the DM can force a player to make that same luck check. If he fails, he is forced to roll a smaller die, but without that bonus that makes it equal back up to 20. So a -1 luck makes you roll a d12, -2 makes you use a d10, and so on. Hence why I let my players take 10 rather than risk having bad luck... heh heh.
Dunelord
12-13-04, 07:51 PM Montee Cook in his Arcana Unearthed (not Unearthed Arcana) has Hero points which are very very cool. You get one at first level and only get another if do something really amamzing like risk getting bit by 20 vipers to save another party member is the example. You can use Hero points to do really amazing things like take another full rounds worth of actions the same round you have already acted and then act normally in the next round.
LukiLoki
12-13-04, 08:09 PM I use action points, like in Eberron.
But it's just your level in points, per LEVEL, not per day. That seems excessive.
Basically, I like it. I was getting flak for the lethality of my campaign, now, the PC's can call the shots a little bit more, and do what they like to do, namely, not die.
The main issue I've run across is that I need to remember to give them a chance to declare their intent to use them before I resolve what's happening.
By the same token, the players tend to forget that they've got them.
DreadLord
12-15-04, 12:30 PM In the campaign I run in we call them "Hero points", but they are basically the same thing in which they allow a reroll.

The difference seems to be that you are handing out many points per day (thus making it almost impossible to miss a badly needed roll), where as the "Hero points" we use must be earned by commiting a heroic deed (or villainous act depending on the alignment of the character).

I have always liked that we have to put our characters on the line so to speak to earn them, rather than just being handed a handfull of them for no reason. As an added bonus the players have to use the "Hero points" very sparingly, or put their heads on the chopping block more often to earn more.
Carpe DM
12-15-04, 03:18 PM My experiences with Action Points in general have been bad bad bad bad bad. Players tend not to use them randomly, but instead save them up.

If you've ever played a console RPG like Final Fantasy, it's analogous to getting that rare Megalixer and saving it for the final battle, because you know there's a limited supply that can't be replenished.

When I used the Action Points system, my players would end up just saving their points until they encountered some big villain, and then everyone unloads their points into everything they do in that battle. This has the effect of making the "dangerous battle" less dangerous than a random encounter.

In my opinion, the whole luck AND action point thing can be summed up as this:

Luck - Already factored into the game via dice. DICE. As in, if you get lucky, you roll high, if not, you roll low. Easy as that. =)

Action Points - All these do is let your characters either get themselves out of a bad luck (read: bad roll) situation, or let them be completely absurd versus challenges that should be...challenging. The first option (the bad luck one) reduces the fun of the game, because sometimes bad luck is entertaining. The second one makes the game feel less tense, if you know you can throw an action point or two in and off that troll whose CR is 4 points above yours. Combined, the effect is one that ends up removing most of the suspense of the game.

As a fine example:

My wife was playing a druid, who used a Summon spell to summon two wolves. She was level 2, so they would exist for 2 rounds. The first round they both attacked the same opponent. She rolled a natural 1 BOTH TIMES. Yay! So I ruled (as the DM) that the two wolves spent that round sniffing at eachother curiously. The next round comes. Wolf one gets a.... natural 1... and wolf two gets a total of 7, missing the target again. So I say that after sniffing at eachother, wolf one began to try and mount wolf two, which caused wolf two to miss his attack. The wolves had then been around for 2 rounds, and vanished from whence they came. Point is, sometimes bad luck can be very amusing!

And a side note:

If you're looking for the "make the PC's cool because they are supposed to be heroes" factor, don't use luck or action points. Just roll your PC's using a better rolling method or point buy than you do with the NPC's and bad guys. So if you usually do 4d6 drop the lowest, do straight 3d6 for opponents. Here's why: 3d6 gives an average of 10-11, also known as Ability Modifiers of 0 on average. 4d6 drop the lowest averages around 13, also known as Ability Modifiers of 1 on average. If you look at this in an abstract way, this means your PC's have an average "+1 luck bonus" to everything they do, ever, just by nature of being a PC. Of course, to make it interesting, you can always make the villain leaders use the same rolling method as the PC's...gives a good reason why that particular person rose to leadership - he's naturally a cut above the rest. Or if you really want to be fun, give the villain even better rolling or point buy than the heroes. But don't, under any circumstances, give them a silly luck or action point system. Please. Anyone who reads my posts knows I am generally all about modifying rules, but in this case, this is just a bad bad bad idea.
Arcane Guyver
12-16-04, 02:39 AM Action points are cool; they just require some additional work on the part of the DM.

Meaning: Don't hold back. Those action points are nice boosters, so you can afford to not fudge any rolls and let things play out the way they should.

Plus, depending on the style of play, the characters might level up before hitting the big bad. Suddenly they lose all those points they saved up (from this standpoint, they sound more like FF7 Limit Breaks, or whatever they're called in FF10).

I'm actually thinking of ways to make Charisma a more attractive attribute, and just had an idea: bonus action points/level based off of Charisma modifier.
Dunelord
12-16-04, 09:06 PM My experiences with Action Points in general have been bad bad bad bad bad. Players tend not to use them randomly, but instead save them up.

If you've ever played a console RPG like Final Fantasy, it's analogous to getting that rare Megalixer and saving it for the final battle, because you know there's a limited supply that can't be replenished.

When I used the Action Points system, my players would end up just saving their points until they encountered some big villain, and then everyone unloads their points into everything they do in that battle. This has the effect of making the "dangerous battle" less dangerous than a random encounter.

In my opinion, the whole luck AND action point thing can be summed up as this:

Luck - Already factored into the game via dice. DICE. As in, if you get lucky, you roll high, if not, you roll low. Easy as that. =)

Action Points - All these do is let your characters either get themselves out of a bad luck (read: bad roll) situation, or let them be completely absurd versus challenges that should be...challenging. The first option (the bad luck one) reduces the fun of the game, because sometimes bad luck is entertaining. The second one makes the game feel less tense, if you know you can throw an action point or two in and off that troll whose CR is 4 points above yours. Combined, the effect is one that ends up removing most of the suspense of the game.

As a fine example:

My wife was playing a druid, who used a Summon spell to summon two wolves. She was level 2, so they would exist for 2 rounds. The first round they both attacked the same opponent. She rolled a natural 1 BOTH TIMES. Yay! So I ruled (as the DM) that the two wolves spent that round sniffing at eachother curiously. The next round comes. Wolf one gets a.... natural 1... and wolf two gets a total of 7, missing the target again. So I say that after sniffing at eachother, wolf one began to try and mount wolf two, which caused wolf two to miss his attack. The wolves had then been around for 2 rounds, and vanished from whence they came. Point is, sometimes bad luck can be very amusing!

And a side note:

If you're looking for the "make the PC's cool because they are supposed to be heroes" factor, don't use luck or action points. Just roll your PC's using a better rolling method or point buy than you do with the NPC's and bad guys. So if you usually do 4d6 drop the lowest, do straight 3d6 for opponents. Here's why: 3d6 gives an average of 10-11, also known as Ability Modifiers of 0 on average. 4d6 drop the lowest averages around 13, also known as Ability Modifiers of 1 on average. If you look at this in an abstract way, this means your PC's have an average "+1 luck bonus" to everything they do, ever, just by nature of being a PC. Of course, to make it interesting, you can always make the villain leaders use the same rolling method as the PC's...gives a good reason why that particular person rose to leadership - he's naturally a cut above the rest. Or if you really want to be fun, give the villain even better rolling or point buy than the heroes. But don't, under any circumstances, give them a silly luck or action point system. Please. Anyone who reads my posts knows I am generally all about modifying rules, but in this case, this is just a bad bad bad idea.

No offence but I would say that you having problems with action points may come from you style of DMing, not any problem with action points. The whole summoned animals thing mount each other thing because they both got natural 1s is ENTIRELY you making a house rule, since RAW states that a natural one is simply an automatic miss. I'm not saying anything is wrong with that, but critcal failures as a result of natural 1s are more limiting to PCs then NPCs. If you and your party enjoy a style of play that is a little more difficult then standard that's fine, BUT it would mean that a optional rule that makes PCs more powerful might not be a good idea for your group while still being a good idea for others.

As an aside I belive Unearthed Arcana has rules for counting the number of action points aginist the treasure value the PCs have, so this could be used to keep the game blance in check if you want to use them without uping the power level of the PCs.
mercurywyrm
12-17-04, 02:04 AM I like that use of Cha modifier to action points, I would also like to point out that at least in Ebberon, you CAN'T save up action points, they reset each level sure you could try to hold on to them untill the end of a level but who is to say that that is when the toughest encounters will be, some parties might bypass the minor baddies with stealth and magic and save them to eliminate at their own lesiure and go straight for the BBEG, then pick off the little guys, or you could have them gain a level just before getting to the BBEG, he thought he would win but they progressed and surprised him with their increased skill. Action points are best spent right away. One of the best uses I have seen for action points only works really well on two handed power attackers, they go in for a really high power attack, hope for a lucky roll, and if they don't get it, use an action point, of course they would only do this against high HP opponents. I have also heard of using action points to make called shots, but I HATE called shot mechanics and how they are debilitating to characters who I consider uninjured, I belive strongly in the Vitality idea presented in Unearthed Arcana, but like to avoid having a set of wound points, the additional damage caused by crits and such represent causing a character to need more effort to avoid the actual hurt, ONLY non HP or damage that brings you to the negatives represents actual hurt. HP is basically what I would call your character's effort to dodge and "cinematic" luck. It's for when things are not easily blocked and avoided, but great effort was made to protect yourself at the last instant as well as situations cropping up at the last moment that prevent actuall damage, a character only has so much of this extreme energy and cinematic luck and so, they run out of HPs eventually.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Storyteller13 10-16-04, 05:03 AM	I'm instituting a system of "luck points" for the characters in my campaign. They get one point per level per day. Basically what the points are for are heroic actions. You can blow a luck point to get an automatic hit (but not a critical), to add +10 to a skill check, that kind of thing. What advantages and/or disadvantages are there to this system?
Lina_Inverse 10-16-04, 07:01 AM	theres already action points.and one per level per day?you realise none of your pcs will ever actully MISS?yeah this system is not good,you need one that does say I=WIN.
DizzyDawg 10-16-04, 08:55 AM	That depends on their level, if you are giving 1 point/level/day. How dangerous is your campaign? Do you want thm to be heroic and do amazing things? Or do they simply need the luck to remain alive? If they need the luck to remain alive from session to session, you may want to consider toning down the challenge level of your game. A number of games have similar ideas including some D&D variants. Both DC Heroes and Marvel heroes allowed players to burn experience points to improve rolls before the dice were thrown, or to subtract damage from an attack. While they are all nice, one question to ask before deciding is: do the NPC's also have the advantage of having a pool of luck points to burn? What's fair is fair. Once again, do the PC's seem to need an edge? Reducing the challenge level, i.e., lowering the CR of attackers and/or the DC of ability checks and saves will have the same overall effect as instituting luck points. But it leaves the decisions in your control and doesn't require a change in the rules.
nat1088 10-16-04, 11:42 AM	As mentioned by Lina_Inverse, I'd suggest sticking with Action Points. They are playtested and they seem sound. They're not as common and they will make a difference when used. Alternatively, there is a system I've heard about where players have a "Luck" score, and they can add the modifier from that to a d20 roll once every so often, maybe 1/encounter, or, if they all roll highly for that, you could limit it to 1/adventure, 1/session, or something similar.
Hitokiri Battousai 10-18-04, 01:28 PM	I've come up with a sort of Luck system in my campaign... everyone has a "Luck" score, as was mentioned... its just a straight d20 though, not 3d6. I let my players choose to take 10 on it if they want, so that way they'll have no luck, niether good or bad. Anyways, once per day, you can attempt a Luck check against a DC 10... if you're successful, you get to reroll the last roll you made, but using a smaller die. If you have a +1 luck bonus, you roll 1d12+8. If you have a +2, you roll 1d10+10, and so forth, with a +5 letting you roll 1d4+16. Now, my favorite side of this system is if someone has bad luck... if that's the case, once per day the DM can force a player to make that same luck check. If he fails, he is forced to roll a smaller die, but without that bonus that makes it equal back up to 20. So a -1 luck makes you roll a d12, -2 makes you use a d10, and so on. Hence why I let my players take 10 rather than risk having bad luck... heh heh.
Dunelord 12-13-04, 07:51 PM	Montee Cook in his Arcana Unearthed (not Unearthed Arcana) has Hero points which are very very cool. You get one at first level and only get another if do something really amamzing like risk getting bit by 20 vipers to save another party member is the example. You can use Hero points to do really amazing things like take another full rounds worth of actions the same round you have already acted and then act normally in the next round.
LukiLoki 12-13-04, 08:09 PM	I use action points, like in Eberron. But it's just your level in points, per LEVEL, not per day. That seems excessive. Basically, I like it. I was getting flak for the lethality of my campaign, now, the PC's can call the shots a little bit more, and do what they like to do, namely, not die. The main issue I've run across is that I need to remember to give them a chance to declare their intent to use them before I resolve what's happening. By the same token, the players tend to forget that they've got them.
DreadLord 12-15-04, 12:30 PM	In the campaign I run in we call them "Hero points", but they are basically the same thing in which they allow a reroll. The difference seems to be that you are handing out many points per day (thus making it almost impossible to miss a badly needed roll), where as the "Hero points" we use must be earned by commiting a heroic deed (or villainous act depending on the alignment of the character). I have always liked that we have to put our characters on the line so to speak to earn them, rather than just being handed a handfull of them for no reason. As an added bonus the players have to use the "Hero points" very sparingly, or put their heads on the chopping block more often to earn more.
Carpe DM 12-15-04, 03:18 PM	My experiences with Action Points in general have been bad bad bad bad bad. Players tend not to use them randomly, but instead save them up. If you've ever played a console RPG like Final Fantasy, it's analogous to getting that rare Megalixer and saving it for the final battle, because you know there's a limited supply that can't be replenished. When I used the Action Points system, my players would end up just saving their points until they encountered some big villain, and then everyone unloads their points into everything they do in that battle. This has the effect of making the "dangerous battle" less dangerous than a random encounter. In my opinion, the whole luck AND action point thing can be summed up as this: Luck - Already factored into the game via dice. DICE. As in, if you get lucky, you roll high, if not, you roll low. Easy as that. =) Action Points - All these do is let your characters either get themselves out of a bad luck (read: bad roll) situation, or let them be completely absurd versus challenges that should be...challenging. The first option (the bad luck one) reduces the fun of the game, because sometimes bad luck is entertaining. The second one makes the game feel less tense, if you know you can throw an action point or two in and off that troll whose CR is 4 points above yours. Combined, the effect is one that ends up removing most of the suspense of the game. As a fine example: My wife was playing a druid, who used a Summon spell to summon two wolves. She was level 2, so they would exist for 2 rounds. The first round they both attacked the same opponent. She rolled a natural 1 BOTH TIMES. Yay! So I ruled (as the DM) that the two wolves spent that round sniffing at eachother curiously. The next round comes. Wolf one gets a.... natural 1... and wolf two gets a total of 7, missing the target again. So I say that after sniffing at eachother, wolf one began to try and mount wolf two, which caused wolf two to miss his attack. The wolves had then been around for 2 rounds, and vanished from whence they came. Point is, sometimes bad luck can be very amusing! And a side note: If you're looking for the "make the PC's cool because they are supposed to be heroes" factor, don't use luck or action points. Just roll your PC's using a better rolling method or point buy than you do with the NPC's and bad guys. So if you usually do 4d6 drop the lowest, do straight 3d6 for opponents. Here's why: 3d6 gives an average of 10-11, also known as Ability Modifiers of 0 on average. 4d6 drop the lowest averages around 13, also known as Ability Modifiers of 1 on average. If you look at this in an abstract way, this means your PC's have an average "+1 luck bonus" to everything they do, ever, just by nature of being a PC. Of course, to make it interesting, you can always make the villain leaders use the same rolling method as the PC's...gives a good reason why that particular person rose to leadership - he's naturally a cut above the rest. Or if you really want to be fun, give the villain even better rolling or point buy than the heroes. But don't, under any circumstances, give them a silly luck or action point system. Please. Anyone who reads my posts knows I am generally all about modifying rules, but in this case, this is just a bad bad bad idea.
Arcane Guyver 12-16-04, 02:39 AM	Action points are cool; they just require some additional work on the part of the DM. Meaning: Don't hold back. Those action points are nice boosters, so you can afford to not fudge any rolls and let things play out the way they should. Plus, depending on the style of play, the characters might level up before hitting the big bad. Suddenly they lose all those points they saved up (from this standpoint, they sound more like FF7 Limit Breaks, or whatever they're called in FF10). I'm actually thinking of ways to make Charisma a more attractive attribute, and just had an idea: bonus action points/level based off of Charisma modifier.
Dunelord 12-16-04, 09:06 PM	My experiences with Action Points in general have been bad bad bad bad bad. Players tend not to use them randomly, but instead save them up. If you've ever played a console RPG like Final Fantasy, it's analogous to getting that rare Megalixer and saving it for the final battle, because you know there's a limited supply that can't be replenished. When I used the Action Points system, my players would end up just saving their points until they encountered some big villain, and then everyone unloads their points into everything they do in that battle. This has the effect of making the "dangerous battle" less dangerous than a random encounter. In my opinion, the whole luck AND action point thing can be summed up as this: Luck - Already factored into the game via dice. DICE. As in, if you get lucky, you roll high, if not, you roll low. Easy as that. =) Action Points - All these do is let your characters either get themselves out of a bad luck (read: bad roll) situation, or let them be completely absurd versus challenges that should be...challenging. The first option (the bad luck one) reduces the fun of the game, because sometimes bad luck is entertaining. The second one makes the game feel less tense, if you know you can throw an action point or two in and off that troll whose CR is 4 points above yours. Combined, the effect is one that ends up removing most of the suspense of the game. As a fine example: My wife was playing a druid, who used a Summon spell to summon two wolves. She was level 2, so they would exist for 2 rounds. The first round they both attacked the same opponent. She rolled a natural 1 BOTH TIMES. Yay! So I ruled (as the DM) that the two wolves spent that round sniffing at eachother curiously. The next round comes. Wolf one gets a.... natural 1... and wolf two gets a total of 7, missing the target again. So I say that after sniffing at eachother, wolf one began to try and mount wolf two, which caused wolf two to miss his attack. The wolves had then been around for 2 rounds, and vanished from whence they came. Point is, sometimes bad luck can be very amusing! And a side note: If you're looking for the "make the PC's cool because they are supposed to be heroes" factor, don't use luck or action points. Just roll your PC's using a better rolling method or point buy than you do with the NPC's and bad guys. So if you usually do 4d6 drop the lowest, do straight 3d6 for opponents. Here's why: 3d6 gives an average of 10-11, also known as Ability Modifiers of 0 on average. 4d6 drop the lowest averages around 13, also known as Ability Modifiers of 1 on average. If you look at this in an abstract way, this means your PC's have an average "+1 luck bonus" to everything they do, ever, just by nature of being a PC. Of course, to make it interesting, you can always make the villain leaders use the same rolling method as the PC's...gives a good reason why that particular person rose to leadership - he's naturally a cut above the rest. Or if you really want to be fun, give the villain even better rolling or point buy than the heroes. But don't, under any circumstances, give them a silly luck or action point system. Please. Anyone who reads my posts knows I am generally all about modifying rules, but in this case, this is just a bad bad bad idea. No offence but I would say that you having problems with action points may come from you style of DMing, not any problem with action points. The whole summoned animals thing mount each other thing because they both got natural 1s is ENTIRELY you making a house rule, since RAW states that a natural one is simply an automatic miss. I'm not saying anything is wrong with that, but critcal failures as a result of natural 1s are more limiting to PCs then NPCs. If you and your party enjoy a style of play that is a little more difficult then standard that's fine, BUT it would mean that a optional rule that makes PCs more powerful might not be a good idea for your group while still being a good idea for others. As an aside I belive Unearthed Arcana has rules for counting the number of action points aginist the treasure value the PCs have, so this could be used to keep the game blance in check if you want to use them without uping the power level of the PCs.
mercurywyrm 12-17-04, 02:04 AM	I like that use of Cha modifier to action points, I would also like to point out that at least in Ebberon, you CAN'T save up action points, they reset each level sure you could try to hold on to them untill the end of a level but who is to say that that is when the toughest encounters will be, some parties might bypass the minor baddies with stealth and magic and save them to eliminate at their own lesiure and go straight for the BBEG, then pick off the little guys, or you could have them gain a level just before getting to the BBEG, he thought he would win but they progressed and surprised him with their increased skill. Action points are best spent right away. One of the best uses I have seen for action points only works really well on two handed power attackers, they go in for a really high power attack, hope for a lucky roll, and if they don't get it, use an action point, of course they would only do this against high HP opponents. I have also heard of using action points to make called shots, but I HATE called shot mechanics and how they are debilitating to characters who I consider uninjured, I belive strongly in the Vitality idea presented in Unearthed Arcana, but like to avoid having a set of wound points, the additional damage caused by crits and such represent causing a character to need more effort to avoid the actual hurt, ONLY non HP or damage that brings you to the negatives represents actual hurt. HP is basically what I would call your character's effort to dodge and "cinematic" luck. It's for when things are not easily blocked and avoided, but great effort was made to protect yourself at the last instant as well as situations cropping up at the last moment that prevent actuall damage, a character only has so much of this extreme energy and cinematic luck and so, they run out of HPs eventually.