Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheAnthroDM 06-04-07, 12:53 AM	I've noticed that casters have a significant advantage in the game, because in general they only need one good stat to survive("YOU NEED CON!" No, no you don't, I have run many many spellcasters with negative constitution scores and still been able to get through the game) So I was thinking of house ruling that certain school are tied to different Mental Ability scores for purpose of DC, Minimum score required to access and bonus spells(yes this means you get bonus spells for each ability you have, but only to the schools it affects.) Something like. Int: Abjuration, Conjuration(Healing), Necromancy Wis: Conjuration, Transmutation, Divination Cha: Enchantment, Illusion, Evocation Suggested Feats: Spell Blueprints You have discovered a way to apply your knowledge of Necromancy, Healing and Abjuration to fuel other spells. Prerequiste: Must be able to cast 5 Int based spells. Benefit: Choose a school not that's not influenced by Int, you can now use Int instead of Wis or Cha to cast spells from that school. Supernatural Perception Prerequiste: Must be able to cast 5 Wis based spells. Benefit: Choose a school not that's not influenced by Wis, you can now use Int instead of Int or Cha to cast spells from that school. Presence of the Mystic Prerequiste: Must be able to cast 5 Cha based spells. Benefit: Choose a school not that's not influenced by Cha, you can now use Int instead of Int or Wis to cast spells from that school. Comments?
RobbyPants 06-04-07, 03:52 PM	I don't know that I would tie different schools to different stats. It reminds me a little too much of 3.0 psionics... :yuck: I have two suggestions you could try to give casters a need for two stats: Tie bonus spells to Con, but keep the minimum ability and save DCs at the relavent mental stat. This makes the most sense if you're using the UA spell point varient and using the fatigue varient. It bases the caster's "casting stamina" off of Con, but the actual strength of their spells off of their mental abilities. Tie two mental stats to each class (similar to the spirit shaman). Picture (for example) a wizard that gets bonus spells from Int (as he is good at memorizing extra spells), but his save DCs are based on Cha (as his spells are controlled by his force of will). This would force a wizard to have both a good Int and Cha to function well. You could do similar things for each of the casting classes (figuring out how to set two different scores to different aspects of the casting). So a high Int/low Cha wizard would have lots of weak DC spells, and one with a low Int/high Cha would have few high DC spells.
Hugin 06-04-07, 05:38 PM	Without getting into the magic system I use, these are the abilities tied to each school: Adjuration - Wisdom Conjuration - Charisma Divination - Wisdom Enchantment - Charisma Evocation - Constitution Illusion - Dexterity Necromancy - Intelligence Transmutation - Intelligence The caster's normal spell casting ability score modifier is added to the modifier for the spell's school to determine the spell's success. This means that in general a cleric is better at Adj & Div, a wizard is better at Necro &Trans, and a sorcerer is better at Conj & Ench. It works well for me system but I'm not sure how to translate it to 3.5, so YMMV.
TheAnthroDM 06-05-07, 12:29 AM	Without getting into the magic system I use, these are the abilities tied to each school: Adjuration - Wisdom Conjuration - Charisma Divination - Wisdom Enchantment - Charisma Evocation - Constitution Illusion - Dexterity Necromancy - Intelligence Transmutation - Intelligence The caster's normal spell casting ability score modifier is added to the modifier for the spell's school to determine the spell's success. This means that in general a cleric is better at Adj & Div, a wizard is better at Necro &Trans, and a sorcerer is better at Conj & Ench. It works well for me system but I'm not sure how to translate it to 3.5, so YMMV. Could you tell me your reasoning for this? For my stats it's as follows: Schools based on intelligence require a certain understanding of the Spells and Creatures(Abjuration and Necromancy/Conjuration(healing)[well Necromancy(Healing) in my campaigns.] respectively) Schools based on Wisdom demand a certain amount of perception to use.(Divination being supernatural perception. Being able to place the components to a spell properly in Conjuration.[so you don't end up with a two legged celestial dog, or an Orb of Acid that'll explode in your face] Transmutation working much the same way only you already have the materials with you.) Schools based on Charisma require force of will to work. (Evocation being obvious. Illusion's disbelief being based on your own power to delude your opponent. And enchantment being based on your ability to deceive.)
IronMouse 06-05-07, 06:50 AM	A pretty simple system for MAD spellcasting is the following: Use Int for maximum spell level that can be cast. Use Wis to calculate bonus spells per day. Use Cha to determine save DC of your spells. (Feel free to switch the roles around if you like) Now, casters need all mental stats to be effective...just like melee characters need all physical stats.
Rhialto 06-05-07, 09:00 AM	At this point, you may as well collapse the 6 stats down into just two, called "body" and "mind".
Hugin 06-05-07, 10:52 AM	Could you tell me your reasoning for this? Sure. It's the way magic works IMC. ;) You can say it works anyway you wish it to because we are creating it that way. (Remember that the class's primary casting ability modifier is used in addition to the school's relevant ability modifier. Therefore, a cleric casting an Abjuration spell applies his Wis modifier twice). Here's some more insight into the nature of magic IMC : Abjuration - Wisdom; Clerics are known for their healing and protection aspects so I wanting them to be better at protection spells then most other casters. Wisdom is a lot about perception and understanding, excellent qualities for basing defense on. Conjuration - Charisma; This deals a lot with living creatures and using power of being to dominate another. Plus, I wanted wizards and sorcerers to have a bit of a stereotype to them; sorcerers being more apt at exerting their will over other creatures, thus summoning and charming. Divination - Wisdom; This is pretty much a no-brainer and I wanted clerics to have the advantage here. Enchantment - Charisma; Again, due to my vision of sorcerers, I wanted them to be better at influencing other being through power of presence. Charisma was perfect for my needs. Evocation - Constitution; I didn't want any arcane caster to out-shine another in this school due to the nature of the spells. I reasoned that forming and controlling raw magical energy is hard on the body and so used constitution. Illusion - Dexterity; Basically to even things out a bit I used the AD&D notion that Dex is tied to Illusion. I just rationalized that creating illusions is a bit like a craft and these spells are very sensitive to slight motions or manipulating of material. Necromancy - Intelligence; The last two are mostly just a result of how I wanted my magic to work IMC but I can easily reason that this school relies on intricate knowledge of physical bodies and how they operate. Transmutation - Intelligence; Basically identical to Necro but less about biology and more reliant on knowledge of physics and its manipulation. Any system regarding magic will be completely arbitrary but as long as it makes sense to the people gaming with it and they enjoy it, then it's right. I have some more written up on how the schools relate to each other but it's all at home.
RobbyPants 06-05-07, 11:43 AM	Enchantment - Charisma; Again, due to my vision of sorcerers, I wanted them to be better at influencing other being through power of presence. Charisma was perfect for my needs. Illusion - Dexterity; Basically to even things out a bit I used the AD&D notion that Dex is tied to Illusion. I just rationalized that creating illusions is a bit like a craft and these spells are very sensitive to slight motions or manipulating of material. This system actually helps beguilers, as it makes them less MAD. Now they just need Dex and Cha, as opposed to Dex, Int, and Cha.
Hugin 06-05-07, 11:55 AM	This system actually helps beguilers, as it makes them less MAD. Now they just need Dex and Cha, as opposed to Dex, Int, and Cha. See what I mean by YMMV? We don't use non-core classes or prestige classes (and actually a heavily modified 3.5E). I think I've heard what MAD stands for before but I can't remember - what is it again?
RobbyPants 06-05-07, 12:33 PM	See what I mean by YMMV? We don't use non-core classes or prestige classes (and actually a heavily modified 3.5E). YMMV? :confused: I think I've heard what MAD stands for before but I can't remember - what is it again? MAD = Multiple Attribute Dependancy The idea (of this thread) is to get casters to need multiple attributes. So instead of a wizard relying only on Int, he might need Int and Cha, for example...
Hugin 06-05-07, 12:59 PM	YMMV? :confused: YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary :) In other words, you may not get nearly as much use out of it as me (or maybe none at all). The idea (of this thread) is to get casters to need multiple attributes. So instead of a wizard relying only on Int, he might need Int and Cha, for example... Ahh... this was one of the objectives of the rules we use. Well almost - they just make choosing which abilities to have lower scores in more difficult. As far as casting spells is concerned, it helps casters desire a themed approach to spells but still allow flexibility. To be honest I doubt my system would appeal to the broader gaming community since it doesn't take into account non-PHB classes or PrC.
RobbyPants 06-05-07, 01:23 PM	YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary :) Priceless :rofl: That's really so much of what this game is: very situational.
TheAnthroDM 06-05-07, 03:54 PM	I've enjoyed all of the suggestions in this thread(with the exception of one, which I'll adress below) and haven't seen anyone point out a unrealistic way for MAD spellcasting.(though, with magic, what is unrealistic?) So far I prefer the way I had things set out originally for my campaigns. Now to address a comment I felt was ludicrous. At this point, you may as well collapse the 6 stats down into just two, called "body" and "mind". No. Just no. One of the main points of having MAD is to add more diversity to the characters. and by having just two attributes you make things very boring. The idea of having MAD is so that the scores(and difference in scores) of all attributes actually matter. So we don't end up with something like this: Str 8 Con 8 Dex 8 Int 2,000,000 Wis 8 Cha 8 or this Body 8 Mind 3,000,000
RobbyPants 06-05-07, 04:25 PM	Str 8 Con 8 Dex 8 Int 2,000,000 Wis 8 Cha 8 Even without MAD casting, a wizard is still going to want a decent Dex and Con. Obviously, Int is more important than both of these, but dumping them entirly is a good way to die before 2nd level. What do you do after you cast your two color sprays for the day? :P If a DM is worried about casters dumping stats other than their casting stat, (s)he can always find ways to use that against them. Low Wis and Cha scores are bound to come up in play. Dumping Str is usually a fairly logical choice for an arcane caster. Just make sure to stay out of grappling range! Long and the short of it, I don't know that you need to change anything. Granted, it is an interesting idea. IronMouse had a pretty good suggestion for how to require casters to have good mental stats.
TheAnthroDM 06-05-07, 04:41 PM	Even without MAD casting, a wizard is still going to want a decent Dex and Con. Obviously, Int is more important than both of these, but dumping them entirly is a good way to die before 2nd level. What do you do after you cast your two color sprays for the day? :P A) It's purposefully blown out of proportion B) See my comment above about the "Wizards must have CON" travesty. C) Two? Think of the bonus spells! /Sarcasm If a DM is worried about casters dumping stats other than their casting stat, (s)he can always find ways to use that against them. Low Wis and Cha scores are bound to come up in play. Dumping Str is usually a fairly logical choice for an arcane caster. Just make sure to stay out of grappling range! The purpose of being a DM is not to annoy your players. Long and the short of it, I don't know that you need to change anything. Granted, it is an interesting idea. IronMouse had a pretty good suggestion for how to require casters to have good mental stats. I acknowledged that most of this was a good idea. There are several reasons why I disaprove of IronMouse's idea for my own particular games, and several reasons why I think mental attributes should be tied to different schools. I was just pointing out that one because of Rhialto's post.
Rhialto 06-05-07, 05:33 PM	No. Just no. One of the main points of having MAD is to add more diversity to the characters. and by having just two attributes you make things very boring. The idea of having MAD is so that the scores(and difference in scores) of all attributes actually matter. So we don't end up with something like this: Str 8 Con 8 Dex 8 Int 2,000,000 Wis 8 Cha 8 or this Body 8 Mind 3,000,000 My point was that is a caster character needs to have all stats mental stats high for him to be useful, then there is effectively no difference between those stats, and a smart player will just raise them equally. I actually consider the existance of "dump stats" to be a good thing. It means that every character will have a weak spot, and that character will rely on the others to cover that weakness, which encourages teamwork. If every character class requires all stats in order to be effective, you effectively remove one of the mechanisms in the game that makes the PCs co-operate.
RobbyPants 06-05-07, 05:59 PM	The purpose of being a DM is not to annoy your players. Then why require them to have 2,3, or 5 (or whatever) casting stats?
TheAnthroDM 06-05-07, 08:16 PM	Then why require them to have 2,3, or 5 (or whatever) casting stats? Because Casters overshine everyone else epicly? Because it adds dimension to the game? Because it makes sense? Because it's how I want to build my world? Because everyone else is MAD?
TheAnthroDM 06-05-07, 08:32 PM	My point was that is a caster character needs to have all stats mental stats high for him to be useful, then there is effectively no difference between those stats, and a smart player will just raise them equally. Incorrect, a player that wants versatility would raise them all equally. But what about specialist Wizards, Warmages, and Dread Necromancers? Maybe you just want to be a sorcerer but don't have alot of use for high level abjuration or necromancy spells? Maybe they don't use them at all. I actually consider the existance of "dump stats" to be a good thing. It means that every character will have a weak spot, and that character will rely on the others to cover that weakness, which encourages teamwork. If every character class requires all stats in order to be effective, you effectively remove one of the mechanisms in the game that makes the PCs co-operate. On the contrary I don't think you have to have access to all your mental stats to be effective you just have to to be a generalist (Isn't that the principal of generalization?) Also in a way it forces Mages to get down to a warriors level and choose an area to be good at. (Archery - Melee - Defense vs Abjuration, Necromancy - Conjuration, Transmutation, Divination - Enchantment, Illusion, Evocation) and I think the bonus feats help out those who wish for more access with less MAD.
Rhialto 06-06-07, 03:50 AM	There are ways to force wizards to become specialized without requiring all mental stats to be used for something. This most basic (and to me, obvious) approach would be to make a set of knowledge skills, one for each specialization you want in your campaign. This still forces mages to choose an area to be good at. I also think it's a more sensibel approach. Maybe I just don't get why a transmuter should have a huge amunt of common sense (Circe certainly didn't), and I can actually see a good reason why an enchanter would not necessarily have a good charisma (he needs to magic to make up for his lack of natural talent in "people" skills). As Robby pointed out, a caster already has MAD (good Con and Dex to stay alive). I'd go farther and say that a good Wis score for the willpower save is needed, because wizards tend to get targeted by the enemy artillery (wizards) more than other characters. Whether Cha is a dump stat or not is something that depends on how hack and slash your campaign is. If your urban adventures begin and end on the equipment pages of the PHB, then its a dump stat for everyone, and focing only mages to need it (for spellcasting) won't fix a more fundamental problem with it, since you'd then have the issue of Charisma not being used for what it actually is.
RobbyPants 06-06-07, 09:31 AM	Because Casters overshine everyone else epicly? Because it adds dimension to the game? Because it makes sense? Because it's how I want to build my world? Because everyone else is MAD? Feel free to run your game however you want. I'm not trying to attack your point of view here. In fact, you make a good point. The only reason I brought it up is because of your response: The purpose of being a DM is not to annoy your players. I wasn't trying to say that you need to deliberately "thwart" your players, but rather, they need to realize that dump stats come with a cost. If you let them put an 8 into several scores, and then make those scores irrelivent, you have effectively given them free points to boost their casting stat. As for annoying your players, they might not be thrilled to find out that their caster now needs four or five good stats as opposed to three.