Magic and Drama [Archive] - Wizards Community

Magic and Drama [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
theotherdraxen
09-30-06, 09:12 PM There have been horrendous debates over whether or not magic is overpowered. My experience with magic has been yes-until recently. I read through the threads, expanded my knowledge, and realized that spell-casters are balanced, given you have the right number of encounters.

If you follow the standard D&D style of adventures, they have a series of low-level encounters leading up to a final BBEG. These series of encounters drain spell-casters of some of their magical edge, and balance the game between the combatants and the magical users.

If you deviate from this, however, then imbalance shows up. On one hand, you have 10+ encounters in a single day, and magic would probably seem pretty underpowered. On the other hand, a single high-powered encounter would leave the magic users overpowering (my numbers may be off). I've generally been in groups that do single, high powered encounters per day.

The basic solution I have for this is to use the spell-point variant in UA and use only 1/4 the normal spell points (there's supposed to be about 4 encounters in a day, correct me if I'm wrong). Does this limit spell-casters too much? If so, what do you suggest?
Rhialto
09-30-06, 11:26 PM I don't think magic is necessarly unbalanced within a aprty, but I'm pretty sure there's no reasonable explanation for why a magic based industrial revolution has not happened with magic as plentiful as it is in the vanilla D20 universe.

With raise dead spells available, why hasn't the same king been on the throne for the last 1000 years (barring assassins who incinerate the body)? Even with such assassins, there's a new cleric spell which gets round the habeas corpus issue that teh standard raise dead spell has.

With light spells and a little duration extension, why hasn't the local magic guild instituted street lights?

Those are basic examples of course, but the list goes on. It's the main reason why I make my campaign low magic.
theotherdraxen
09-30-06, 11:34 PM Um...I appreciate your feedback, but you just railroaded my thread. I'm taking a completely mechanical approach to this, and you failed to answer either of the two questions I posed. Thank you for reading my thread and posting, but I'd prefer that you help me determine an appropriate mechanic for balancing spellcasters in single, high-powered battles.
Rhialto
10-01-06, 12:05 AM Hmm, I guess what i meant to say is that spellcasters aren't balanced within their universe.

At high levels? Of course they are unbalanced. Ridiculously so. Did you actually doubt that for a minute?

Let's see. 20th level barbarian approaches with two greatswords in each hand and the feats to use all four of them at once effectively.

Wizard: "I wish that barbarian was not here."

otoh, in a high level campaign, PCs should no longer be dungeon crawling, or even going toe to toe with high level NPCs. that7s what minions are for. If you haven't got your own barony (at least, preferably something bigger) by level 15, you're doing something badly wrong in my campaigns.
Darth Sephiroth
10-01-06, 01:05 AM I don't think magic is necessarly unbalanced within a aprty, but I'm pretty sure there's no reasonable explanation for why a magic based industrial revolution has not happened with magic as plentiful as it is in the vanilla D20 universe.

With raise dead spells available, why hasn't the same king been on the throne for the last 1000 years (barring assassins who incinerate the body)? Even with such assassins, there's a new cleric spell which gets round the habeas corpus issue that teh standard raise dead spell has.

With light spells and a little duration extension, why hasn't the local magic guild instituted street lights?

Those are basic examples of course, but the list goes on. It's the main reason why I make my campaign low magic.

Raise Dead doesn't work on death by natural causes such as age

Hmm, I guess what i meant to say is that spellcasters aren't balanced within their universe.

At high levels? Of course they are unbalanced. Ridiculously so. Did you actually doubt that for a minute?

Let's see. 20th level barbarian approaches with two greatswords in each hand and the feats to use all four of them at once effectively.

Wizard: "I wish that barbarian was not here."

otoh, in a high level campaign, PCs should no longer be dungeon crawling, or even going toe to toe with high level NPCs. that7s what minions are for. If you haven't got your own barony (at least, preferably something bigger) by level 15, you're doing something badly wrong in my campaigns.

Not necessarily, for characters aiming for that goal, yeah, probably, but some people still have the goals of riding around and righting wrongs and all that. And anyway, Wish wouldn't be that effective against someone who could try to save against the effect, not to mention that the Barbarian probably has some item to let him get a save anyway
Chrono Nexus
10-01-06, 01:07 AM There have been horrendous debates over whether or not magic is overpowered. My experience with magic has been yes-until recently...
The basic solution I have for this is to use the spell-point variant in UA and use only 1/4 the normal spell points (there's supposed to be about 4 encounters in a day, correct me if I'm wrong). Does this limit spell-casters too much? If so, what do you suggest?
I've never used a spell-point varient, only because I like to keep my games accessible to all players.
However, I do have high hopes for a mana-based system, but I'd also like to make a suggestion.
Suppose there is a 3 level wizard (18 int). His total accumulation of castable spell levels in any given day is 16 (4 cantrips=4 pts + 3 1st level=6 pts + 2 2nd level=6 pts).
Assuming you are also incorporating spontaneous casting, he should be able to cast up to 5 3rd level spells in a day, or up to 16 cantrips, or some other combination. This doesn't seem to be a problem to me.
Let's take the same caster, toss on ten levels, and compare.
This wizard never bought gear to raise his int, and never raised it otherwise...
He'll have 81 mana pts, if you use my conversion...
This could be ten level 7 spells, compared to a normal (18 int) wizards usual cap at one per day.
Mana points may be flexible, and I do think they make more sense, but a simple conversion to spell points is not enough to maintain balance, it is too easy for a player to max out his spell casting by only casting his highest level spells.
Here is my fix.
It would be better to add an additional cost that scales after a caster exceeds his spell level/day limit. Ok, that was confusing... flip to page 55 of the phb 3.5 (spells per day of wizard). The spell/day slots cease to be a fixed limit on a spellcaster, rather, they are a measure of his ability to channel magical energies. Exceeding a limit on the chart (figuring in bonus spells too) will result in additional mana costs beyond the normal casting cost of a spell.
For example, let's say the 13th level wizard, we'll call him Bob, casts his second 7th level spell of the day. His first casting cost him 8 mana, he still has plenty left (73). Bob's second casting of a seventh level spell is more difficult to perform, as he has "burnt out". This second casting will cost an additional 8. Each additional casting beyond the limit adds an amount equal to the casting cost of that level spell to the cost of that spell, for the remainder of the day. Using this version, Bob can only cast a level 7 spell up to 4 times, and then he'll only have one mana left.
Well, there ya go. A straight mana conversion, with a fix. I hope I helped you out, now that I actually took the time to review this, I can implement it in my games.
btw- What "Drama"? I don't get it.
theotherdraxen
10-01-06, 04:54 PM First, let me apologize to Rhialto. I had forgotten what I had written in my intro, and your post was on topic. I was just looking for opinions on my idea of cutting the spell points.

Anyway, Chrono Nexus, your spell casting idea is good, and I like how it becomes harder (or more costly) to cast higher level spells, but as the system stands, higher level spells cost significantly more than their level. True a 1st level only costs one point, but a 6th will cost 11, and a 9th will cost 17.

I don't expect to see a lot of low level spells cast, as they are normally used up in the numerous small encounters that the party is expected to face before meeting the BBEG. I'm cutting out the low level encounters and pumping the (now only) final encounter.

btw- What "Drama"? I don't get it.
The drama is 'epic' style battles, where the players are pitched up against their foes in a single encounter. The adventure usually consists of deep-immersion role-playing leading up to a dramatic match between the players and their enemy, which is usually 4-6 CR higher than the partys ECl (but they have action points). I regard such a gaming style as more dramatic (though possibly less cool).
Andrew
10-01-06, 11:54 PM An idea I had along these lines was a little simpler in concept and a little more difficult in execution:

For all classes, take everything that is usable X times per day - spells, power points, rage, bardic music, smite evil, etc. Prepare it all as normal, such as choosing spells prepared. Then, divide it in half, rounding up. For spells, divide spells by each level, including all appropriate bonuses (domains, ability scores, etc.). For each domain slot, choose if it's in the first or second half.

That first half is what characters have to play with under most circumstances. Now, if your campaign has an intense adventure and they have two challenging encounters without a chance to rest, they then get the other half to use as a "second wind."

I think that cutting to 1/4th is too extreme; on average, 1/4th of the resources are supposed to be used per encounter. However, sometimes you will use a lot of resources to bring something down, and sometimes a failed save drops something in one round. There needs to be some wiggle room, so that you can keep the style of all the classes, but discourage blowing absolutely everything on the one encounter of the day.
OneWinged4ngel
10-02-06, 02:42 AM There have been horrendous debates over whether or not magic is overpowered. My experience with magic has been yes-until recently. I read through the threads, expanded my knowledge, and realized that spell-casters are balanced, given you have the right number of encounters.

If you follow the standard D&D style of adventures, they have a series of low-level encounters leading up to a final BBEG. These series of encounters drain spell-casters of some of their magical edge, and balance the game between the combatants and the magical users.

If you deviate from this, however, then imbalance shows up. On one hand, you have 10+ encounters in a single day, and magic would probably seem pretty underpowered. On the other hand, a single high-powered encounter would leave the magic users overpowering (my numbers may be off). I've generally been in groups that do single, high powered encounters per day.

The basic solution I have for this is to use the spell-point variant in UA and use only 1/4 the normal spell points (there's supposed to be about 4 encounters in a day, correct me if I'm wrong). Does this limit spell-casters too much? If so, what do you suggest?

I find it that magic is overpowered even with many encounters a day. The players just need to know how to use it. A Fighter still can't compare to what a spellcaster can do. And when the spellcasters run out, the party rests or just dies because the Fighters and such just can't fight things their level without help from things like super artifact items (aka DM pity).

There are plenty of spells for this, such as Rope Trick or Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion. Also, plenty of spells can last all day.

If you have a single encounter, casters (and everyone with /day abilities) are going to nova and blow up everything with everything they've got, and the imbalance of casters will be the most notable. However, even with the correct number of encounters, a spellcaster is still far more effective than many other classes. In fact, it's been shown repeatedly that casters can replicate what many other classes can do *just as well as they can or better* all day. That's right, a Wizard or Cleric can get up there and do the Fighter's job better than the Fighter can.
OneWinged4ngel
10-02-06, 02:45 AM Hmm, I guess what i meant to say is that spellcasters aren't balanced within their universe.

At high levels? Of course they are unbalanced. Ridiculously so. Did you actually doubt that for a minute?

Let's see. 20th level barbarian approaches with two greatswords in each hand and the feats to use all four of them at once effectively.

Wizard: "I wish that barbarian was not here."

otoh, in a high level campaign, PCs should no longer be dungeon crawling, or even going toe to toe with high level NPCs. that7s what minions are for. If you haven't got your own barony (at least, preferably something bigger) by level 15, you're doing something badly wrong in my campaigns.

No no no, you see, that wizard laughs at the barbarian because he's polymorphed into a 12 headed hydra all day that tears the barbarian limb from limb with AoOs before he even gets close enough to use those greatswords. Or he uses Celerity and blows him away even though it's not the wizard's turn. Or... (goes on an endless list)
theotherdraxen
10-02-06, 07:25 PM No no no, you see, that wizard laughs at the barbarian because he's polymorphed into a 12 headed hydra all day that tears the barbarian limb from limb with AoOs before he even gets close enough to use those greatswords. Or he uses Celerity and blows him away even though it's not the wizard's turn. Or... (goes on an endless list)
Ha! That's impossible. There's no way the wizard could laugh out of all 12 heads!

But seriously, assuming the good guys and the bad guys will all have their mixes of spellcasters and warriors (and thus resistances to the effects of both), would cutting the spell points by 1/2 do the trick? I'm also thinking about including potions of mana, just in case they need to push onto an unexpected fight.
OneWinged4ngel
10-02-06, 07:41 PM Ha! That's impossible. There's no way the wizard could laugh out of all 12 heads!

But seriously, assuming the good guys and the bad guys will all have their mixes of spellcasters and warriors (and thus resistances to the effects of both), would cutting the spell points by 1/2 do the trick? I'm also thinking about including potions of mana, just in case they need to push onto an unexpected fight.

If you give spellcasters less spells per day, all it really changes is how often the party rests. The thing is, at higher levels... when the resources run out, you rest. The Fighter *can't* carry you through more fights, because he just plain *can't* fight against things his level that fight moderately intelligently. He dies without support because he's a glorified NPC class (Warrior).

When the wizard runs out of blasts and the cleric runs out of healing, the party'll set up a rope trick or something. Cutting down spells per day actually highlights some of the problems of the spells/day mechanic (the need to stop and rest for the day, which is annoying) while not really introducing much more balance.
Rhialto
10-03-06, 03:51 AM For the custom system I'm working on, wizards have a mana point system. It regenerates mana quite fast and without special effort from the wizard, but the peak amount of magic capacity (his "nova") is quite low compared to vanilla wizards. I think this adequately allwos wizards to fight all day (ie 4 separate encounters) without forcing rests to maximise kill power and without allowing the wizard to nova and blow everything out of the water and make the non-wizards redundant.
theotherdraxen
10-03-06, 07:24 PM Please, do go on, Rhialto. I think you have just what I'm looking for.
Rhialto
10-04-06, 04:16 AM All magic spells are placed in one or more lores of magic. These can be defined according to your campaign. A wizard needs at least one of the relevant lore feats to even begin learning a spell.

At first level, a wizard gets one lore feat as a free bonus. Additional lore feats can be gained by spending a feat in the usual way.

At first level, a wizard receives INT/3 (round down) spells. He can choose what level these spells are, but for practical reasons he'd be pretty silly to pick high level spells (unless you want a Rincewind style wizard).

At each level, a wizard gets 2d6 + INT bonus in mana points.

Casting a 0-level spell costs 1d6 mana. Casting a higher level spell costs 1d20 mana per spell level.

If your mana ends at 0 or less, the spell fails. Depending on your campaign style, make a roll for a disastrous spell misfire. If your mana ends at a positive number, the spell succeeds. Depending on your campaign, certain positive numbers will cause a minor wild magic effect in addition to the intended effect.

Set your mana recovery rate to whatever feels appropriate to your campaign. My current working value is (max mana)/12 every 10 minutes, resulting in full mana recovery every 2 hours.

magical eddies can reduce mana recovery. magical storms can raise mana recovery, but make miscast chances bigger, and increase mana cost. The effect of a storm can be likened to trying to ride a bicycle in a very strong wind. It might well blow you in the right direction (faster mana recovery), but it can just as easily push you over (miscast chance).

the lore feats, miscasts, and magical storms/eddies are all optional components if you wnat to pare this down to basics.
theotherdraxen
10-04-06, 08:43 PM So...let's see if I understand this right.

A 1st level wizard starts with 2d6+int mana points. Assuming elite array and averages thats 9 mana points (3.5x2+2 for 15 int). Each level thereafter his mana points increase by a similar number, essentially increasing each level by 7+int.

A 0th level spell costs 1d6 mp. A 1st+ level spell costs 1d20 (averaging 10). So...wizards have to wait until 2nd level to cast 1st level spells safely? With 18 mp, that's a 10% chance to lose the 1st level spell, and even if it is fired successfully, there's no telling whether the wizard will be able to shoot off another one in the same day.

A 20th level wizard, on the other hand, will have over 200 mp, and be able to cast two or three 9th level spells (with an element of danger), encouraging the wizard to cast more lower-level spells and only one 9th level spell. At high levels it works, but levels 1-5, I think there may be a problem.

Maybe they should get the maximum value at 1st level. This will give them some wiggle room at the lower levels, and will be made obsolete in the mass of mp at higher levels. Do you think this will help balance things out?
Rhialto
10-05-06, 03:54 AM Ah, some points I forgot to mention...

You do NOT forget a spell when you cast it. A spell stays in memory until you choose to wipe it to make room for other spells (maximum spell capacity is INT bonus plus character level in total spells).

Also, the mana pool regenerates constantly, such that it will be restored in full every 2 hours (you may want to calculate mana regained per 10 minutes if the total mana pool is big enough).

So that 1st level character does typically have a 50:50 chance of castinga spell when he is fresh. otoh, since his mana will fully regenerate every 2 hours, that's in theory up to 4 casting opportunities a day at full strength, so he would typically get out 2 spells a day, which is an improvement on the vanilla wizard.

I really need to get the full version of these notes out onto my webpage. Writing summaries usually means I end up missing somethng out.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
theotherdraxen 09-30-06, 09:12 PM	There have been horrendous debates over whether or not magic is overpowered. My experience with magic has been yes-until recently. I read through the threads, expanded my knowledge, and realized that spell-casters are balanced, given you have the right number of encounters. If you follow the standard D&D style of adventures, they have a series of low-level encounters leading up to a final BBEG. These series of encounters drain spell-casters of some of their magical edge, and balance the game between the combatants and the magical users. If you deviate from this, however, then imbalance shows up. On one hand, you have 10+ encounters in a single day, and magic would probably seem pretty underpowered. On the other hand, a single high-powered encounter would leave the magic users overpowering (my numbers may be off). I've generally been in groups that do single, high powered encounters per day. The basic solution I have for this is to use the spell-point variant in UA and use only 1/4 the normal spell points (there's supposed to be about 4 encounters in a day, correct me if I'm wrong). Does this limit spell-casters too much? If so, what do you suggest?
Rhialto 09-30-06, 11:26 PM	I don't think magic is necessarly unbalanced within a aprty, but I'm pretty sure there's no reasonable explanation for why a magic based industrial revolution has not happened with magic as plentiful as it is in the vanilla D20 universe. With raise dead spells available, why hasn't the same king been on the throne for the last 1000 years (barring assassins who incinerate the body)? Even with such assassins, there's a new cleric spell which gets round the habeas corpus issue that teh standard raise dead spell has. With light spells and a little duration extension, why hasn't the local magic guild instituted street lights? Those are basic examples of course, but the list goes on. It's the main reason why I make my campaign low magic.
theotherdraxen 09-30-06, 11:34 PM	Um...I appreciate your feedback, but you just railroaded my thread. I'm taking a completely mechanical approach to this, and you failed to answer either of the two questions I posed. Thank you for reading my thread and posting, but I'd prefer that you help me determine an appropriate mechanic for balancing spellcasters in single, high-powered battles.
Rhialto 10-01-06, 12:05 AM	Hmm, I guess what i meant to say is that spellcasters aren't balanced within their universe. At high levels? Of course they are unbalanced. Ridiculously so. Did you actually doubt that for a minute? Let's see. 20th level barbarian approaches with two greatswords in each hand and the feats to use all four of them at once effectively. Wizard: "I wish that barbarian was not here." otoh, in a high level campaign, PCs should no longer be dungeon crawling, or even going toe to toe with high level NPCs. that7s what minions are for. If you haven't got your own barony (at least, preferably something bigger) by level 15, you're doing something badly wrong in my campaigns.
Darth Sephiroth 10-01-06, 01:05 AM	I don't think magic is necessarly unbalanced within a aprty, but I'm pretty sure there's no reasonable explanation for why a magic based industrial revolution has not happened with magic as plentiful as it is in the vanilla D20 universe. With raise dead spells available, why hasn't the same king been on the throne for the last 1000 years (barring assassins who incinerate the body)? Even with such assassins, there's a new cleric spell which gets round the habeas corpus issue that teh standard raise dead spell has. With light spells and a little duration extension, why hasn't the local magic guild instituted street lights? Those are basic examples of course, but the list goes on. It's the main reason why I make my campaign low magic. Raise Dead doesn't work on death by natural causes such as age Hmm, I guess what i meant to say is that spellcasters aren't balanced within their universe. At high levels? Of course they are unbalanced. Ridiculously so. Did you actually doubt that for a minute? Let's see. 20th level barbarian approaches with two greatswords in each hand and the feats to use all four of them at once effectively. Wizard: "I wish that barbarian was not here." otoh, in a high level campaign, PCs should no longer be dungeon crawling, or even going toe to toe with high level NPCs. that7s what minions are for. If you haven't got your own barony (at least, preferably something bigger) by level 15, you're doing something badly wrong in my campaigns. Not necessarily, for characters aiming for that goal, yeah, probably, but some people still have the goals of riding around and righting wrongs and all that. And anyway, Wish wouldn't be that effective against someone who could try to save against the effect, not to mention that the Barbarian probably has some item to let him get a save anyway
Chrono Nexus 10-01-06, 01:07 AM	There have been horrendous debates over whether or not magic is overpowered. My experience with magic has been yes-until recently... The basic solution I have for this is to use the spell-point variant in UA and use only 1/4 the normal spell points (there's supposed to be about 4 encounters in a day, correct me if I'm wrong). Does this limit spell-casters too much? If so, what do you suggest? I've never used a spell-point varient, only because I like to keep my games accessible to all players. However, I do have high hopes for a mana-based system, but I'd also like to make a suggestion. Suppose there is a 3 level wizard (18 int). His total accumulation of castable spell levels in any given day is 16 (4 cantrips=4 pts + 3 1st level=6 pts + 2 2nd level=6 pts). Assuming you are also incorporating spontaneous casting, he should be able to cast up to 5 3rd level spells in a day, or up to 16 cantrips, or some other combination. This doesn't seem to be a problem to me. Let's take the same caster, toss on ten levels, and compare. This wizard never bought gear to raise his int, and never raised it otherwise... He'll have 81 mana pts, if you use my conversion... This could be ten level 7 spells, compared to a normal (18 int) wizards usual cap at one per day. Mana points may be flexible, and I do think they make more sense, but a simple conversion to spell points is not enough to maintain balance, it is too easy for a player to max out his spell casting by only casting his highest level spells. Here is my fix. It would be better to add an additional cost that scales after a caster exceeds his spell level/day limit. Ok, that was confusing... flip to page 55 of the phb 3.5 (spells per day of wizard). The spell/day slots cease to be a fixed limit on a spellcaster, rather, they are a measure of his ability to channel magical energies. Exceeding a limit on the chart (figuring in bonus spells too) will result in additional mana costs beyond the normal casting cost of a spell. For example, let's say the 13th level wizard, we'll call him Bob, casts his second 7th level spell of the day. His first casting cost him 8 mana, he still has plenty left (73). Bob's second casting of a seventh level spell is more difficult to perform, as he has "burnt out". This second casting will cost an additional 8. Each additional casting beyond the limit adds an amount equal to the casting cost of that level spell to the cost of that spell, for the remainder of the day. Using this version, Bob can only cast a level 7 spell up to 4 times, and then he'll only have one mana left. Well, there ya go. A straight mana conversion, with a fix. I hope I helped you out, now that I actually took the time to review this, I can implement it in my games. btw- What "Drama"? I don't get it.
theotherdraxen 10-01-06, 04:54 PM	First, let me apologize to Rhialto. I had forgotten what I had written in my intro, and your post was on topic. I was just looking for opinions on my idea of cutting the spell points. Anyway, Chrono Nexus, your spell casting idea is good, and I like how it becomes harder (or more costly) to cast higher level spells, but as the system stands, higher level spells cost significantly more than their level. True a 1st level only costs one point, but a 6th will cost 11, and a 9th will cost 17. I don't expect to see a lot of low level spells cast, as they are normally used up in the numerous small encounters that the party is expected to face before meeting the BBEG. I'm cutting out the low level encounters and pumping the (now only) final encounter. btw- What "Drama"? I don't get it. The drama is 'epic' style battles, where the players are pitched up against their foes in a single encounter. The adventure usually consists of deep-immersion role-playing leading up to a dramatic match between the players and their enemy, which is usually 4-6 CR higher than the partys ECl (but they have action points). I regard such a gaming style as more dramatic (though possibly less cool).
Andrew 10-01-06, 11:54 PM	An idea I had along these lines was a little simpler in concept and a little more difficult in execution: For all classes, take everything that is usable X times per day - spells, power points, rage, bardic music, smite evil, etc. Prepare it all as normal, such as choosing spells prepared. Then, divide it in half, rounding up. For spells, divide spells by each level, including all appropriate bonuses (domains, ability scores, etc.). For each domain slot, choose if it's in the first or second half. That first half is what characters have to play with under most circumstances. Now, if your campaign has an intense adventure and they have two challenging encounters without a chance to rest, they then get the other half to use as a "second wind." I think that cutting to 1/4th is too extreme; on average, 1/4th of the resources are supposed to be used per encounter. However, sometimes you will use a lot of resources to bring something down, and sometimes a failed save drops something in one round. There needs to be some wiggle room, so that you can keep the style of all the classes, but discourage blowing absolutely everything on the one encounter of the day.
OneWinged4ngel 10-02-06, 02:42 AM	There have been horrendous debates over whether or not magic is overpowered. My experience with magic has been yes-until recently. I read through the threads, expanded my knowledge, and realized that spell-casters are balanced, given you have the right number of encounters. If you follow the standard D&D style of adventures, they have a series of low-level encounters leading up to a final BBEG. These series of encounters drain spell-casters of some of their magical edge, and balance the game between the combatants and the magical users. If you deviate from this, however, then imbalance shows up. On one hand, you have 10+ encounters in a single day, and magic would probably seem pretty underpowered. On the other hand, a single high-powered encounter would leave the magic users overpowering (my numbers may be off). I've generally been in groups that do single, high powered encounters per day. The basic solution I have for this is to use the spell-point variant in UA and use only 1/4 the normal spell points (there's supposed to be about 4 encounters in a day, correct me if I'm wrong). Does this limit spell-casters too much? If so, what do you suggest? I find it that magic is overpowered even with many encounters a day. The players just need to know how to use it. A Fighter still can't compare to what a spellcaster can do. And when the spellcasters run out, the party rests or just dies because the Fighters and such just can't fight things their level without help from things like super artifact items (aka DM pity). There are plenty of spells for this, such as Rope Trick or Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion. Also, plenty of spells can last all day. If you have a single encounter, casters (and everyone with /day abilities) are going to nova and blow up everything with everything they've got, and the imbalance of casters will be the most notable. However, even with the correct number of encounters, a spellcaster is still far more effective than many other classes. In fact, it's been shown repeatedly that casters can replicate what many other classes can do just as well as they can or better all day. That's right, a Wizard or Cleric can get up there and do the Fighter's job better than the Fighter can.
OneWinged4ngel 10-02-06, 02:45 AM	Hmm, I guess what i meant to say is that spellcasters aren't balanced within their universe. At high levels? Of course they are unbalanced. Ridiculously so. Did you actually doubt that for a minute? Let's see. 20th level barbarian approaches with two greatswords in each hand and the feats to use all four of them at once effectively. Wizard: "I wish that barbarian was not here." otoh, in a high level campaign, PCs should no longer be dungeon crawling, or even going toe to toe with high level NPCs. that7s what minions are for. If you haven't got your own barony (at least, preferably something bigger) by level 15, you're doing something badly wrong in my campaigns. No no no, you see, that wizard laughs at the barbarian because he's polymorphed into a 12 headed hydra all day that tears the barbarian limb from limb with AoOs before he even gets close enough to use those greatswords. Or he uses Celerity and blows him away even though it's not the wizard's turn. Or... (goes on an endless list)
theotherdraxen 10-02-06, 07:25 PM	No no no, you see, that wizard laughs at the barbarian because he's polymorphed into a 12 headed hydra all day that tears the barbarian limb from limb with AoOs before he even gets close enough to use those greatswords. Or he uses Celerity and blows him away even though it's not the wizard's turn. Or... (goes on an endless list) Ha! That's impossible. There's no way the wizard could laugh out of all 12 heads! But seriously, assuming the good guys and the bad guys will all have their mixes of spellcasters and warriors (and thus resistances to the effects of both), would cutting the spell points by 1/2 do the trick? I'm also thinking about including potions of mana, just in case they need to push onto an unexpected fight.
OneWinged4ngel 10-02-06, 07:41 PM	Ha! That's impossible. There's no way the wizard could laugh out of all 12 heads! But seriously, assuming the good guys and the bad guys will all have their mixes of spellcasters and warriors (and thus resistances to the effects of both), would cutting the spell points by 1/2 do the trick? I'm also thinking about including potions of mana, just in case they need to push onto an unexpected fight. If you give spellcasters less spells per day, all it really changes is how often the party rests. The thing is, at higher levels... when the resources run out, you rest. The Fighter can't carry you through more fights, because he just plain can't fight against things his level that fight moderately intelligently. He dies without support because he's a glorified NPC class (Warrior). When the wizard runs out of blasts and the cleric runs out of healing, the party'll set up a rope trick or something. Cutting down spells per day actually highlights some of the problems of the spells/day mechanic (the need to stop and rest for the day, which is annoying) while not really introducing much more balance.
Rhialto 10-03-06, 03:51 AM	For the custom system I'm working on, wizards have a mana point system. It regenerates mana quite fast and without special effort from the wizard, but the peak amount of magic capacity (his "nova") is quite low compared to vanilla wizards. I think this adequately allwos wizards to fight all day (ie 4 separate encounters) without forcing rests to maximise kill power and without allowing the wizard to nova and blow everything out of the water and make the non-wizards redundant.
theotherdraxen 10-03-06, 07:24 PM	Please, do go on, Rhialto. I think you have just what I'm looking for.
Rhialto 10-04-06, 04:16 AM	All magic spells are placed in one or more lores of magic. These can be defined according to your campaign. A wizard needs at least one of the relevant lore feats to even begin learning a spell. At first level, a wizard gets one lore feat as a free bonus. Additional lore feats can be gained by spending a feat in the usual way. At first level, a wizard receives INT/3 (round down) spells. He can choose what level these spells are, but for practical reasons he'd be pretty silly to pick high level spells (unless you want a Rincewind style wizard). At each level, a wizard gets 2d6 + INT bonus in mana points. Casting a 0-level spell costs 1d6 mana. Casting a higher level spell costs 1d20 mana per spell level. If your mana ends at 0 or less, the spell fails. Depending on your campaign style, make a roll for a disastrous spell misfire. If your mana ends at a positive number, the spell succeeds. Depending on your campaign, certain positive numbers will cause a minor wild magic effect in addition to the intended effect. Set your mana recovery rate to whatever feels appropriate to your campaign. My current working value is (max mana)/12 every 10 minutes, resulting in full mana recovery every 2 hours. magical eddies can reduce mana recovery. magical storms can raise mana recovery, but make miscast chances bigger, and increase mana cost. The effect of a storm can be likened to trying to ride a bicycle in a very strong wind. It might well blow you in the right direction (faster mana recovery), but it can just as easily push you over (miscast chance). the lore feats, miscasts, and magical storms/eddies are all optional components if you wnat to pare this down to basics.
theotherdraxen 10-04-06, 08:43 PM	So...let's see if I understand this right. A 1st level wizard starts with 2d6+int mana points. Assuming elite array and averages thats 9 mana points (3.5x2+2 for 15 int). Each level thereafter his mana points increase by a similar number, essentially increasing each level by 7+int. A 0th level spell costs 1d6 mp. A 1st+ level spell costs 1d20 (averaging 10). So...wizards have to wait until 2nd level to cast 1st level spells safely? With 18 mp, that's a 10% chance to lose the 1st level spell, and even if it is fired successfully, there's no telling whether the wizard will be able to shoot off another one in the same day. A 20th level wizard, on the other hand, will have over 200 mp, and be able to cast two or three 9th level spells (with an element of danger), encouraging the wizard to cast more lower-level spells and only one 9th level spell. At high levels it works, but levels 1-5, I think there may be a problem. Maybe they should get the maximum value at 1st level. This will give them some wiggle room at the lower levels, and will be made obsolete in the mass of mp at higher levels. Do you think this will help balance things out?
Rhialto 10-05-06, 03:54 AM	Ah, some points I forgot to mention... You do NOT forget a spell when you cast it. A spell stays in memory until you choose to wipe it to make room for other spells (maximum spell capacity is INT bonus plus character level in total spells). Also, the mana pool regenerates constantly, such that it will be restored in full every 2 hours (you may want to calculate mana regained per 10 minutes if the total mana pool is big enough). So that 1st level character does typically have a 50:50 chance of castinga spell when he is fresh. otoh, since his mana will fully regenerate every 2 hours, that's in theory up to 4 casting opportunities a day at full strength, so he would typically get out 2 spells a day, which is an improvement on the vanilla wizard. I really need to get the full version of these notes out onto my webpage. Writing summaries usually means I end up missing somethng out.