Magic is too powerful [Archive] - Wizards Community

Magic is too powerful [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DIESCUMDIE
07-26-06, 05:34 AM Magic is too powerful
And after trying lots of solutions this is my final solution.

No wizards, sorcerors, clerics or druids.
All other magic using classes are fine.
UA and such variants of these classes are not fine.

I haven't tried this out yet but I don't forsee too many problems as players I've known have prefereed warmages favoured souls and so on anyway. It should give a boost to all the other classes especially all the less steller casters such as bards and so on.

As a more complex addition these original classes can be accessed as prestige classes but only if you do something pretty spectaculer
Mufflon
07-26-06, 01:24 PM Without Wizards the access to diverse magical items will be much more limited (Since most more specialized Caster Classes have much more limited spell lists). Which is going to make melee characters, who are very reliant on magical equipment, weaker.
DIESCUMDIE
07-26-06, 03:22 PM Much more of the treasure will be made up of magic items.
There will be some wizards and whatnot but they will be very rare.
Although there aren't wizards around to make the items to order people trade magic items, which are rarely destroyed. People trade scrolls and wands to make magic items with. So although magic items are rare they still end up in the players possesion.
Either that or the players have a friendly wizard who makes stuff for them.
Anyway without the super casters taking the spotlight it shouldn't be such a biggy.
If the only problem with this solution is a few reality inconsistencies I think its a good solution.
greatamericanfolkhero
07-26-06, 03:42 PM So only NPCs can be full casters? But that is just so there will still be magical gear for the party. If you do this you might want to consider also banning PCs from using the UMD skill, otherwise the Rogues and Bards may start to dominate the game.
fatal error
07-26-06, 03:49 PM ... I fail to see what makes favored souls any better for a lower magic game than sorcerers. They both cast spontaniously, they both get 9th level spells, they both get full class spell lists to choose from.
Fargren
07-26-06, 04:00 PM ... I fail to see what makes favored souls any better for a lower magic game than sorcerers. They both cast spontaniously, they both get 9th level spells, they both get full class spell lists to choose from.
He's probably playing almost core only.
Rhonin the Big
07-26-06, 05:54 PM Magic is too powerful
And after trying lots of solutions this is my final solution.

No wizards, sorcerors, clerics or druids.
All other magic using classes are fine.
UA and such variants of these classes are not fine.

I haven't tried this out yet but I don't forsee too many problems as players I've known have prefereed warmages favoured souls and so on anyway. It should give a boost to all the other classes especially all the less steller casters such as bards and so on.

As a more complex addition these original classes can be accessed as prestige classes but only if you do something pretty spectaculer

I agree with magic being too powerful, but how does this fix anything? The Dungeons and Dragons roleplaying game was built to make those 4 classes the most powerful and nothing in the planes can hold a candle to them, regardless of how many times you up the size-category of the candle. Players need at least 2 of those 4 classes, particularly a cleric. If your game's primary healer is a paladin, then in order to optimize healing as a paladin he needs spontaneous healer and maybe sacred boost which is 2 less feats paladins dont get much of. A cleric is a much less restrictive class if you need a healer in your game and chances are you need one. There is no way to completely remove abuse of magic from your game: Artificers, archivists, spirit shaman who cast as druids, rogues/warlocks/spellthieves with Use Magic Device and maxed out charisma and more can lead to magic abuse and you having to implode lots of players who need this magic. How is banning wizards, sorcerers, clerics and druids going to effect CR? If you play low levels, then without a wizard/sorc your party can be killed off by a swarm of animated undead feet. What if you put your party against a monster with lots of spell-like abilities, without the magical-defenses of a cleric or abjurer then its Game Over. If you plan on only sending melee-monsters at your group, how do you create a consistent challenge? Fighters, barbarians, rogues and many other noncore melee-classes can outdamage any monster built for melee which will quickly turn your game into a d20 version of Devil May Cry (and if you only use creatures with PC levels it becomes d20 Dynasty Warriors which kinda sounds fun maybe because Im a fan).

If you are serious about weakening magic-users, then banning them entirely causes more GBI then it solves. By removing those 4 classes you get what I call the Game Balance Paradox: If a DM removes things to prevent GBI (game-balance issues) you may, in the long run, increase GBI. Without magic-users you need to use melee-monsters who have lousy will saves, which makes Hexblades even more powerful in this situation. I would suggest remaking the system or just nerfing/removing problem spells, there are people on these forums who would be more then happy to help you (myself being one of them).
FeceMan
07-26-06, 06:50 PM He's probably playing almost core only.

Magic is too powerful
And after trying lots of solutions this is my final solution.

No wizards, sorcerors, clerics or druids.
All other magic using classes are fine.
UA and such variants of these classes are not fine.

I haven't tried this out yet but I don't forsee too many problems as players I've known have prefereed warmages favoured souls and so on anyway. It should give a boost to all the other classes especially all the less steller casters such as bards and so on.

As a more complex addition these original classes can be accessed as prestige classes but only if you do something pretty spectaculer
If you want limited magic, replace classes with other classes.

Paladins instead of clerics. [Though, I'd allow more of a "devout warrior" than forcing LG alignment.]
Hexblades instead of sorcerers. [Once again, I'd change the alignment restriction.]
Rangers instead of druids.

And stuff. Might want to devise a variant class that's INT-based, but that's just me.
UnknownMourner
07-26-06, 08:42 PM Sorcerer is too powerful, but Warmage is ok?

interesting
FeceMan
07-26-06, 10:40 PM Sorcerer is too powerful, but Warmage is ok?

interesting
Well, warmage is a one-trick pony. Even the sorcerer can have more variety than him...but, yeah, a favored soul will break the OP's game (if that's how he sees magic).
Votan
07-26-06, 11:09 PM If you want limited magic, replace classes with other classes.

Paladins instead of clerics. [Though, I'd allow more of a "devout warrior" than forcing LG alignment.]
Hexblades instead of sorcerers. [Once again, I'd change the alignment restriction.]
Rangers instead of druids.

And stuff. Might want to devise a variant class that's INT-based, but that's just me.

It's actually not a bad way to do. Add in the Duskblade as the "Elf Wizard" and you have a pretty balanced group of classes.

The main problem is to remember that some types of obstacles and encounters become a lot more deadly as you can no longer use countering magic that is often assumed in the design of monsters.
Ashanti
07-27-06, 05:12 AM @ Deiscumdie

If you want to weaken the full caster classes re do their spell lists. That is to say write out a new spell list for each class but make it much smaller. Split the casters into specialists, each with a spell list.

Thus an Evoker would have a different spell list to and Illusionist. Make the list only 12 spells long (or whatever you think is right) and you restrict the adaptability of the caster.

Do the same for clerics and druids. Make them have an even smaller list to to reflect their deity's portfolio.

Go through the lists to make sure that you don't get spell synergies that you would not like. This allows you to exercise great power over your game.

@ Anyone out there

How do you do quotes?
SilvercatMoonpaw
07-27-06, 05:38 AM @ Anyone out there

How do you do quotes?
Either A) click on the quote button at the bottom right of every post, B) highlight the portion you want to quote, copy, then start your reply, paste, then highlight again and click on the word bubble icon right next to the book icon on the too bar above the writing field.

@DIESCUMDIE

What are you trying to do with this sort of change? All you've said is "Magic is too powerful", but that can be interpreted in a number of ways. Do you have a problem with the variety? Or with the actual power of certain spells? These are very different, becuase in one case all you have to do is place restrictions on who can learn what, but in the other you actually need to rule that certain spells just aren't allowed. I don't think we can be of much help until we know exactly what you are trying to accomplish.
Voldar_Mecorthio
07-27-06, 12:38 PM Originally Posted by Ashanti
@ Anyone out there

How do you do quotes?

or you could do it manualy and put [QUOTE] before the text and [/QU0TE] at the end.
DIESCUMDIE
07-27-06, 02:45 PM I cant say how exactly magic is too strong. But when played well these primary casters ruin my storyline, get around every obstacle and challenge with ease and make the other players redundent.
But when played like just some sort fireball machine they're fine and fun enough.

When I did restrict the list my players just assumed I hated casters and didn't choose them. Personally I don't see how replacing the classes is different from removing them. I assume if I rewrite the classes the players will assume the same. I'm sure these other toned down magic classes where made specifically to replace these super powered classes.

To solve the magic items question. The gods make them and sometimes people find them. No players won't be starved of gear, but it will be more random.

I was assuming that aside from the sorc, wiz, cleric and druid all the other casting classes had much more limited casting lists perhaps I'm wrong.
I'm quiet sure bards or rogues with use magic device wont overpower the game in their absence.
And I'm also sure that as long as one member of the party has a full spell progression or two have some amount of spells the party should be ok.

There are still lots of classes that can cast. Hex, pal, ranger, bard, incarnate, warmage, beguiler, duskblade, dragon shamen etc etc
VirgilCaine
07-27-06, 02:56 PM Magic is too powerful
And after trying lots of solutions this is my final solution.

Try another game. Conan. Decipher's Middle-Earth game. D&D is not the only RPG in the world.
aceland
07-27-06, 03:04 PM How do they ruine your storyline?

The only way casters get out of line is when you let them rest before each and every obstacle. If you put a time line so that they do not have time to remem spells and forces casters to use magic sparingly. Do not do this all the time but it will solve alot of the problems I think you are having.

Also you can limit spells they have access to. By having some some spells rare and that they have to find them.

Most casters have to memorize there spells in advance. Pick problems or obstacles that the player normaly does not have spells to solve.

Not sure if you where wanting any help, but thought I throw my 2 cents in anyway.
FeceMan
07-27-06, 03:18 PM Try another game. Conan. Decipher's Middle-Earth game. D&D is not the only RPG in the world.
Is the Middle-Earth system good? Is it d20?
TarlSS
07-27-06, 03:33 PM Magic causes alot of problems in RPGs, but D&D with it's system balance based on magic is a poor game to deal with it it. Play GURPs, Star Wars or D20 Modern, which are better suited to cope with it.
Twink_007
07-27-06, 05:07 PM Im a lazy-ass basterd, so im just mentioning this incase none of you have suggested this: why not replace core classes with some slightly-less powerful prestiege classes, such as replaceing the wizard or scorceror with the blue mage (the guy that learns spells by getting hit by them) or the druid with a less-impowered shifter, or boosting the paladins spellcasting ability and take away the cleric.

As some of the other guys on the boards have said, if you eliminate the said power of a scorcorer (power of ten) and have less powerful spell-casters left in the game (power of 5), then you are just making the gap smaller, not eliminating it, between the non-spellcasters(power of 0) and those characters that can cast.

There is no denying the fact that some spellcasting classes are a bit too powerful, but only when you get to higher levels. one thing to temporarily put off the problem would be to decreace the amount of xp earned in certain fights. for an example: your scorceror earns 1000 xp normally. in this new scenario, you limit him to 1/2 or 1/3 of his normal xp, to 500 or 334 respectively.
hope this helped.
Thiez
07-27-06, 05:47 PM That's nuts. That sorcerer would get very low saves and HD. Giving him less xp (= he'll be lower level than rest of party) means spells like 'cloudkill' become more interesting.
VirgilCaine
07-27-06, 08:08 PM Is the Middle-Earth system good? Is it d20?

I don't know if it is good, but it is not D20.

http://lotrrpg.fanhq.com/

Try Googling it next time.

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/search-review.phtml

Here's some reviews.
Twink_007
07-27-06, 08:13 PM That's nuts. That sorcerer would get very low saves and HD. Giving him less xp (= he'll be lower level than rest of party) means spells like 'cloudkill' become more interesting.

I never said all my ideas are good. However, i still like the blue mage idea...
Delfedd
07-30-06, 02:26 PM Does anyone else see the irony of calling the removal of all spellcasters the "Final solution?"

Sorry, that was a bit tasteless.

But seriously, I wouldn't take out the mages. That's what makes the game fun for most people. I'd try to find an alternate solution (making spell levels feats, limiting spells while giving different abilities)
retillin
07-30-06, 10:07 PM I'm sorry, but removing casters cause they are too powerful that they allow the party to bypass an obstical is like saying a fighter is too strong to fight an orc.

I dont want to sound mean, but maybe the problem is you dont think through the quest enough, or maybe you give the PCs too much info to start out with. When i first started DMing I gave away quest plots and such just because i was so proud of my self(yes i was a dork in high school). But it's gonna be a lot esier to chang your DMing style than to delete and alter spell casters.

Just a thought anyways, and again I didnt mean to be rude.
DIESCUMDIE
07-31-06, 02:55 AM I didn't remove all casters, there are lots of other casting classes.
Anyway I changed it a bit. My new solution is now in the new thread. Class Balance

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DIESCUMDIE 07-26-06, 05:34 AM	Magic is too powerful And after trying lots of solutions this is my final solution. No wizards, sorcerors, clerics or druids. All other magic using classes are fine. UA and such variants of these classes are not fine. I haven't tried this out yet but I don't forsee too many problems as players I've known have prefereed warmages favoured souls and so on anyway. It should give a boost to all the other classes especially all the less steller casters such as bards and so on. As a more complex addition these original classes can be accessed as prestige classes but only if you do something pretty spectaculer
Mufflon 07-26-06, 01:24 PM	Without Wizards the access to diverse magical items will be much more limited (Since most more specialized Caster Classes have much more limited spell lists). Which is going to make melee characters, who are very reliant on magical equipment, weaker.
DIESCUMDIE 07-26-06, 03:22 PM	Much more of the treasure will be made up of magic items. There will be some wizards and whatnot but they will be very rare. Although there aren't wizards around to make the items to order people trade magic items, which are rarely destroyed. People trade scrolls and wands to make magic items with. So although magic items are rare they still end up in the players possesion. Either that or the players have a friendly wizard who makes stuff for them. Anyway without the super casters taking the spotlight it shouldn't be such a biggy. If the only problem with this solution is a few reality inconsistencies I think its a good solution.
greatamericanfolkhero 07-26-06, 03:42 PM	So only NPCs can be full casters? But that is just so there will still be magical gear for the party. If you do this you might want to consider also banning PCs from using the UMD skill, otherwise the Rogues and Bards may start to dominate the game.
fatal error 07-26-06, 03:49 PM	... I fail to see what makes favored souls any better for a lower magic game than sorcerers. They both cast spontaniously, they both get 9th level spells, they both get full class spell lists to choose from.
Fargren 07-26-06, 04:00 PM	... I fail to see what makes favored souls any better for a lower magic game than sorcerers. They both cast spontaniously, they both get 9th level spells, they both get full class spell lists to choose from. He's probably playing almost core only.
Rhonin the Big 07-26-06, 05:54 PM	Magic is too powerful And after trying lots of solutions this is my final solution. No wizards, sorcerors, clerics or druids. All other magic using classes are fine. UA and such variants of these classes are not fine. I haven't tried this out yet but I don't forsee too many problems as players I've known have prefereed warmages favoured souls and so on anyway. It should give a boost to all the other classes especially all the less steller casters such as bards and so on. As a more complex addition these original classes can be accessed as prestige classes but only if you do something pretty spectaculer I agree with magic being too powerful, but how does this fix anything? The Dungeons and Dragons roleplaying game was built to make those 4 classes the most powerful and nothing in the planes can hold a candle to them, regardless of how many times you up the size-category of the candle. Players need at least 2 of those 4 classes, particularly a cleric. If your game's primary healer is a paladin, then in order to optimize healing as a paladin he needs spontaneous healer and maybe sacred boost which is 2 less feats paladins dont get much of. A cleric is a much less restrictive class if you need a healer in your game and chances are you need one. There is no way to completely remove abuse of magic from your game: Artificers, archivists, spirit shaman who cast as druids, rogues/warlocks/spellthieves with Use Magic Device and maxed out charisma and more can lead to magic abuse and you having to implode lots of players who need this magic. How is banning wizards, sorcerers, clerics and druids going to effect CR? If you play low levels, then without a wizard/sorc your party can be killed off by a swarm of animated undead feet. What if you put your party against a monster with lots of spell-like abilities, without the magical-defenses of a cleric or abjurer then its Game Over. If you plan on only sending melee-monsters at your group, how do you create a consistent challenge? Fighters, barbarians, rogues and many other noncore melee-classes can outdamage any monster built for melee which will quickly turn your game into a d20 version of Devil May Cry (and if you only use creatures with PC levels it becomes d20 Dynasty Warriors which kinda sounds fun maybe because Im a fan). If you are serious about weakening magic-users, then banning them entirely causes more GBI then it solves. By removing those 4 classes you get what I call the Game Balance Paradox: If a DM removes things to prevent GBI (game-balance issues) you may, in the long run, increase GBI. Without magic-users you need to use melee-monsters who have lousy will saves, which makes Hexblades even more powerful in this situation. I would suggest remaking the system or just nerfing/removing problem spells, there are people on these forums who would be more then happy to help you (myself being one of them).
FeceMan 07-26-06, 06:50 PM	He's probably playing almost core only. Magic is too powerful And after trying lots of solutions this is my final solution. No wizards, sorcerors, clerics or druids. All other magic using classes are fine. UA and such variants of these classes are not fine. I haven't tried this out yet but I don't forsee too many problems as players I've known have prefereed warmages favoured souls and so on anyway. It should give a boost to all the other classes especially all the less steller casters such as bards and so on. As a more complex addition these original classes can be accessed as prestige classes but only if you do something pretty spectaculer If you want limited magic, replace classes with other classes. Paladins instead of clerics. [Though, I'd allow more of a "devout warrior" than forcing LG alignment.] Hexblades instead of sorcerers. [Once again, I'd change the alignment restriction.] Rangers instead of druids. And stuff. Might want to devise a variant class that's INT-based, but that's just me.
UnknownMourner 07-26-06, 08:42 PM	Sorcerer is too powerful, but Warmage is ok? interesting
FeceMan 07-26-06, 10:40 PM	Sorcerer is too powerful, but Warmage is ok? interesting Well, warmage is a one-trick pony. Even the sorcerer can have more variety than him...but, yeah, a favored soul will break the OP's game (if that's how he sees magic).
Votan 07-26-06, 11:09 PM	If you want limited magic, replace classes with other classes. Paladins instead of clerics. [Though, I'd allow more of a "devout warrior" than forcing LG alignment.] Hexblades instead of sorcerers. [Once again, I'd change the alignment restriction.] Rangers instead of druids. And stuff. Might want to devise a variant class that's INT-based, but that's just me. It's actually not a bad way to do. Add in the Duskblade as the "Elf Wizard" and you have a pretty balanced group of classes. The main problem is to remember that some types of obstacles and encounters become a lot more deadly as you can no longer use countering magic that is often assumed in the design of monsters.
Ashanti 07-27-06, 05:12 AM	@ Deiscumdie If you want to weaken the full caster classes re do their spell lists. That is to say write out a new spell list for each class but make it much smaller. Split the casters into specialists, each with a spell list. Thus an Evoker would have a different spell list to and Illusionist. Make the list only 12 spells long (or whatever you think is right) and you restrict the adaptability of the caster. Do the same for clerics and druids. Make them have an even smaller list to to reflect their deity's portfolio. Go through the lists to make sure that you don't get spell synergies that you would not like. This allows you to exercise great power over your game. @ Anyone out there How do you do quotes?
SilvercatMoonpaw 07-27-06, 05:38 AM	@ Anyone out there How do you do quotes? Either A) click on the quote button at the bottom right of every post, B) highlight the portion you want to quote, copy, then start your reply, paste, then highlight again and click on the word bubble icon right next to the book icon on the too bar above the writing field. @DIESCUMDIE What are you trying to do with this sort of change? All you've said is "Magic is too powerful", but that can be interpreted in a number of ways. Do you have a problem with the variety? Or with the actual power of certain spells? These are very different, becuase in one case all you have to do is place restrictions on who can learn what, but in the other you actually need to rule that certain spells just aren't allowed. I don't think we can be of much help until we know exactly what you are trying to accomplish.
Voldar_Mecorthio 07-27-06, 12:38 PM	Originally Posted by Ashanti @ Anyone out there How do you do quotes? or you could do it manualy and put [QUOTE] before the text and [/QU0TE] at the end.
DIESCUMDIE 07-27-06, 02:45 PM	I cant say how exactly magic is too strong. But when played well these primary casters ruin my storyline, get around every obstacle and challenge with ease and make the other players redundent. But when played like just some sort fireball machine they're fine and fun enough. When I did restrict the list my players just assumed I hated casters and didn't choose them. Personally I don't see how replacing the classes is different from removing them. I assume if I rewrite the classes the players will assume the same. I'm sure these other toned down magic classes where made specifically to replace these super powered classes. To solve the magic items question. The gods make them and sometimes people find them. No players won't be starved of gear, but it will be more random. I was assuming that aside from the sorc, wiz, cleric and druid all the other casting classes had much more limited casting lists perhaps I'm wrong. I'm quiet sure bards or rogues with use magic device wont overpower the game in their absence. And I'm also sure that as long as one member of the party has a full spell progression or two have some amount of spells the party should be ok. There are still lots of classes that can cast. Hex, pal, ranger, bard, incarnate, warmage, beguiler, duskblade, dragon shamen etc etc
VirgilCaine 07-27-06, 02:56 PM	Magic is too powerful And after trying lots of solutions this is my final solution. Try another game. Conan. Decipher's Middle-Earth game. D&D is not the only RPG in the world.
aceland 07-27-06, 03:04 PM	How do they ruine your storyline? The only way casters get out of line is when you let them rest before each and every obstacle. If you put a time line so that they do not have time to remem spells and forces casters to use magic sparingly. Do not do this all the time but it will solve alot of the problems I think you are having. Also you can limit spells they have access to. By having some some spells rare and that they have to find them. Most casters have to memorize there spells in advance. Pick problems or obstacles that the player normaly does not have spells to solve. Not sure if you where wanting any help, but thought I throw my 2 cents in anyway.
FeceMan 07-27-06, 03:18 PM	Try another game. Conan. Decipher's Middle-Earth game. D&D is not the only RPG in the world. Is the Middle-Earth system good? Is it d20?
TarlSS 07-27-06, 03:33 PM	Magic causes alot of problems in RPGs, but D&D with it's system balance based on magic is a poor game to deal with it it. Play GURPs, Star Wars or D20 Modern, which are better suited to cope with it.
Twink_007 07-27-06, 05:07 PM	Im a lazy-ass basterd, so im just mentioning this incase none of you have suggested this: why not replace core classes with some slightly-less powerful prestiege classes, such as replaceing the wizard or scorceror with the blue mage (the guy that learns spells by getting hit by them) or the druid with a less-impowered shifter, or boosting the paladins spellcasting ability and take away the cleric. As some of the other guys on the boards have said, if you eliminate the said power of a scorcorer (power of ten) and have less powerful spell-casters left in the game (power of 5), then you are just making the gap smaller, not eliminating it, between the non-spellcasters(power of 0) and those characters that can cast. There is no denying the fact that some spellcasting classes are a bit too powerful, but only when you get to higher levels. one thing to temporarily put off the problem would be to decreace the amount of xp earned in certain fights. for an example: your scorceror earns 1000 xp normally. in this new scenario, you limit him to 1/2 or 1/3 of his normal xp, to 500 or 334 respectively. hope this helped.
Thiez 07-27-06, 05:47 PM	That's nuts. That sorcerer would get very low saves and HD. Giving him less xp (= he'll be lower level than rest of party) means spells like 'cloudkill' become more interesting.
VirgilCaine 07-27-06, 08:08 PM	Is the Middle-Earth system good? Is it d20? I don't know if it is good, but it is not D20. http://lotrrpg.fanhq.com/ Try Googling it next time. http://www.rpg.net/reviews/search-review.phtml Here's some reviews.
Twink_007 07-27-06, 08:13 PM	That's nuts. That sorcerer would get very low saves and HD. Giving him less xp (= he'll be lower level than rest of party) means spells like 'cloudkill' become more interesting. I never said all my ideas are good. However, i still like the blue mage idea...
Delfedd 07-30-06, 02:26 PM	Does anyone else see the irony of calling the removal of all spellcasters the "Final solution?" Sorry, that was a bit tasteless. But seriously, I wouldn't take out the mages. That's what makes the game fun for most people. I'd try to find an alternate solution (making spell levels feats, limiting spells while giving different abilities)
retillin 07-30-06, 10:07 PM	I'm sorry, but removing casters cause they are too powerful that they allow the party to bypass an obstical is like saying a fighter is too strong to fight an orc. I dont want to sound mean, but maybe the problem is you dont think through the quest enough, or maybe you give the PCs too much info to start out with. When i first started DMing I gave away quest plots and such just because i was so proud of my self(yes i was a dork in high school). But it's gonna be a lot esier to chang your DMing style than to delete and alter spell casters. Just a thought anyways, and again I didnt mean to be rude.
DIESCUMDIE 07-31-06, 02:55 AM	I didn't remove all casters, there are lots of other casting classes. Anyway I changed it a bit. My new solution is now in the new thread. Class Balance