Magic Rating? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Magic Rating? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Edheldūr
02-27-04, 12:32 AM Could someone please tell anything about magic ratings for the ones that still don't have Unearthed Arcana? (Disclaimer: I'm not asking to know exactly how it works or having it posted here)
NorthSaber
02-27-04, 12:56 AM Essentially, the Magic Rating variant allows for multiclassed casters to enjoy a higher caster level (for spell effects, not for spells/day or spells known). The theory is that a high level character would have had enough practice and experience from other spellcasters to have learned a trick or two, even though he might not have increased his class level.

For example, a Fighter 19 / Wizard 1 would have an effective caster level of 5 (although he would only get 0th and 1st level spells), and a Wizard 10 / Cleric 10 would have an effective caster level of 20 for both magic types (although he would be limited to 5th level spells).

In other words, this variant allows for reasonably efficient multiclassed casters without the need for prestige classes.
Marshall
02-27-04, 01:55 AM Its a BAB for spellcasters.

Spellcasting classes get 1:1
Half casters get 1:2
Non-casters get 1:4 or nearly useless

Half casters should have their MR raised to Med BAB and non-casters should get 1:2
Greyman
02-27-04, 01:58 AM Specifically,

Bard, Druid, Cleric, Sorcerer, and Wizard gain +1 MR / level.

Monk, Paladin, and Ranger gain +1 MR / 2 levels.

Barbarian, Fighter, and Rogue gain +1 MR / 4 levels.
Xeviat-DM
02-27-04, 03:40 AM I'm not sure exactly what this would do to the MC spellcaster PrCs. I've considered something like this before, but when you look at a Fighter/Mage, you don't see something that works reasonably well. A 10/10 Fighter/Mage has a 12th caster level, and 5th level spells at the highest; but he has a 15 BAB and an effective d6/d8 HD. Compare that to a Bard or a Psychic Warrior, it's not very close.
Zaebos
02-27-04, 04:37 AM However, there is an option within the variant that says, if you wish to impiment it in this way, that divine caster level and arcane caster levels don't stack, and such is the way I have implimented it into my game. It doesn't feel right in my game to have them stack.
NorthSaber
02-27-04, 05:32 AM Originally posted by Xeviat-DM
I'm not sure exactly what this would do to the MC spellcaster PrCs. I've considered something like this before, but when you look at a Fighter/Mage, you don't see something that works reasonably well. A 10/10 Fighter/Mage has a 12th caster level, and 5th level spells at the highest; but he has a 15 BAB and an effective d6/d8 HD. Compare that to a Bard or a Psychic Warrior, it's not very close.

Considering all of the options available (especially with AU), fighter 10 / wizard 10 is hardly an optimized combination if you wish to create a bard-like character. Fighter ranks the lowest in the Magic Rating system, while classes like Ranger and Paladin give the same hit points, the same base attack progression, and offer magical ability as well (including healing, which IMO is an important part of the bard's repertoire). I realize you're not talking about recreating the bard, but I'll use the class as an example of a "gish" arcane/fighter class rebuilt with the Magic Rating system.

If I were to substitute the bard class with a multiclass using the variants from AU, it would probably be Paladin of Freedom / Battle Sorcerer. (Paladin of Freedom provides d10 HD, full BAB, divine spellcasting, and is CG; Battle Sorcerer provides d8 HD, cleric BAB, arcane spellcasting, and no ASF in light armor.)

Any combination of these two classes will do fairly well (assuming not using the "no-mixing-of-arcane-and-divine" variant of Magic Rating), but my choice would probably be PoF 8 / BaS 12.
- Base attack bonus of 17/12/7/2
- 2nd level Paladin spells with effective CL of 20
- 6th level Sorcerer spells with effective CL of 16

2nd level Paladin spells don't offer the powerful healing bards normally get, but even one level in Paladin is be sufficient to use powerful healing wands.
Greyman
02-27-04, 05:35 AM Originally posted by Xeviat-DM
I'm not sure exactly what this would do to the MC spellcaster PrCs.That's easy. Those that grant +1 spellcasting per level have a magic rating of +1 per level. Those that only grant spellcasting at odd (or even) levels have a MR of +1/2 per level. And those that grant, say, only 7 spellcasting levels would have a MR of +7/10 per level (or just about 3/4, if you prefer to stick with halves and quarters).

The Mystic Theurge, however, should have a MR of +1/level, definitely. It's quite enough that it is granting a gestalt of spells per day, thank you very much.

Prestige classes with their own spell progression, like the Assassin and Blackguard normally have a caster level equal to their class level, so that's a MR of +1/level.

This leaves us with monk-like prestige classes. Like the monk, classes like drunken master, ninja of the cresent moon, et cetera, should grant a MR of +1/2 per level, despite not having spellcaster levels. The criteria should probably be whether or not they have a flurry ability (or UAB if converting from 3.0), though perhaps Ki Strike abilities could also be a factor.

Everything else is MR +1/4 per level.
Greyman
02-27-04, 05:44 AM Originally posted by NorthSaber
Any combination of these two classes will do fairly well (assuming not using the "no-mixing-of-arcane-and-divine" variant of Magic Rating), but my choice would probably be PoF 8 / BaS 12.
- Base attack bonus of 17/12/7/2
- 2nd level Paladin spells with effective CL of 20
- 6th level Sorcerer spells with effective CL of 16
The effective caster level is 16 reguardless of which class you cast as. Paladins, in all their variants, have a caster level equal to half their class level, which is not so coincidentally their MR under this system. So the PoF-8/BaS-12 has a MR of (8/2)+12, or 16.
Edheldūr
02-27-04, 10:26 AM Thanks to everyone! It seems to be a nice mechanic, and surely one I would like to try (with some other variants from UA)
NorthSaber
02-27-04, 04:17 PM Originally posted by Greyman
The effective caster level is 16 reguardless of which class you cast as. Paladins, in all their variants, have a caster level equal to half their class level, which is not so coincidentally their MR under this system. So the PoF-8/BaS-12 has a MR of (8/2)+12, or 16.

Was this also true in 3.0? I thought there was something like that in the rules, but I go by 3.0 and couldn't find this in my PHB Paladin description. Thanks for correcting me though. It's still one helluva combo, if you're after a bard.
Marshall
02-28-04, 03:34 AM Originally posted by Greyman
That's easy. Those that grant +1 spellcasting per level have a magic rating of +1 per level. Those that only grant spellcasting at odd (or even) levels have a MR of +1/2 per level. And those that grant, say, only 7 spellcasting levels would have a MR of +7/10 per level (or just about 3/4, if you prefer to stick with halves and quarters).

Close. If the class gets more than +1/2 levels you get 1:1
So Elemental Savant and Mindbender are 1:1
If the class gets at least 1 spellcasting bonus but not more than 1:2 it gets 1:2. Which is odd because you could theoretically get a level that gives you +1 spells per day, but not +1 MR.
If the class has no casting, the you get 1/4. Tho i'd agree that monk-like classes should get 1:2 AT LEAST.

I still think that half-casters need to move up to 3/4 casters and non-casters go to 1/2....
Greyman
02-28-04, 06:51 AM Originally posted by NorthSaber
Was this also true in 3.0? I thought there was something like that in the rules, but I go by 3.0 and couldn't find this in my PHB Paladin description. Thanks for correcting me though. It's still one helluva combo, if you're after a bard. Yes, 3.+ Paladins have always had a spellcaster level of half their class level.  Look in either version of the PHB under "spells" in the paladin's abilities description.  "Through 3rd level, a paladin has no caster level.  At 4th level and higher, her caster level is one-half her paladin level."Originally posted by Marshall
Close. If the class gets more than +1/2 levels you get 1:1
So Elemental Savant and Mindbender are 1:1
If the class gets at least 1 spellcasting bonus but not more than 1:2 it gets 1:2. Which is odd because you could theoretically get a level that gives you +1 spells per day, but not +1 MR.
If the class has no casting, the you get 1/4. Tho i'd agree that monk-like classes should get 1:2 AT LEAST.So they do. Well, restricting MR to a whole, half, or quarter, per level probably makes little difference since the fractions will be rounded down anyway, and is certainly easier to work with. Also, there aren't that many prestige classes that provide caster level progression other than +1 or +1/2. (It can be a nice bonus to those that do.)
Originally posted by Marshall
I still think that half-casters need to move up to 3/4 casters and non-casters go to 1/2....Well, as indicated above, Paladins and Rangers have a caster level of half their class level, so that's why they were given a Magic Rating of the same. Still, the low caster level can really hurt when trying to overcome spell resistance and such. Although spellcasting is not something on which those classes should rely, since they never get high level spells anyway.

(Actually, that could be an argument for giving what they do get a little more omph.)
Marshall
02-29-04, 12:48 AM Originally posted by Greyman
So they do. Well, restricting MR to a whole, half, or quarter, per level probably makes little difference since the fractions will be rounded down anyway, and is certainly easier to work with. Also, there aren't that many prestige classes that provide caster level progression other than +1 or +1/2. (It can be a nice bonus to those that do.)

We already have the med BAB chart for a 3/4 MR so ease of calculation is not a problem.

Well, as indicated above, Paladins and Rangers have a caster level of half their class level, so that's why they were given a Magic Rating of the same. Still, the low caster level can really hurt when trying to overcome spell resistance and such. Although spellcasting is not something on which those classes should rely, since they never get high level spells anyway.

It gets rapidly to the point where the spells on their lists that are level dependant for effect(GMW, Cure X) are useless and those that depend on level for duration or range aren't worth using the action to activate.

(Actually, that could be an argument for giving what they do get a little more omph.)

Exactly, the spells themselves are low enough level that even CL 20 wouldn't be that large a boost. But CL15 should be enough.
The Simbul
03-02-04, 04:42 AM Doesnt this become horrifically broken at Epic Levels?

Continuting in a single spellcasting class beyond 20 grants you two key benefits:
1) Increased Caster Level
2) Bonus Epic Feats

Thus a Sor40 would have a CL of 40 and 6 Bonus Epic Feats, which presumably could be spend on Improved Spell Capacity (more spells per day) and Spell Knowledge (giving more spells in her spell repertoire)

While a Sor20/Wiz20 using the MR system would have a caster level of 40, a minumim of 40 additional spells per day (4 of each level 0-9), the ability to wield an innumerable number of spells as a Wizard, and 5 bonus feats (scribe scroll + 4 bonus). The only true caveat/limitation is that such a character must divide her ability score increases between INT and CHA to have a potent Spell Save DC....however if she only cast offensive spells as a Sorcerer, whilst leaving her Wizard spell slots for the plethora of Defensive and Misellaneous spell effects (which will not be that reliant upon a save DC, if at all) , then she could easily mitigate such a limitation.
Hengwrt Ellesmere
03-02-04, 05:25 AM I agree with Marshall about adjusting MR to match BAB. In fact, a few months ago I posted a similar idea on the boards.

Rather than having just one MR, though, my system had an MR for each spellcasting class. You got 1:1 for classes of the same magic type (arcane or divine), 3:4 for cross type classes, and 1:2 for non-caster classes. I was planning on making the paladin and ranger prestige, which UA has nicely done for me, so half-casters wouldn't be an issue.

So this way a 10/10 wizard/cleric would cast spells from both classes as a level 17 caster, and a 10/10 wizard/fighter would cast wizard spells as a level 15 caster. They're both only slinging level 5 spells, but they at least have some chance of beating the SR of a CR 20 foe.
Greyman
03-02-04, 06:34 AM Originally posted by Hengwrt Ellesmere
I was planning on making the paladin and ranger prestige, which UA has nicely done for me, so half-casters wouldn't be an issue.The prestige half-casters still only gain one caster level every two class levels, so it is still a slight issue.

They could gain MR as divine casters one level and as noncasters the next. By your system it would average out to a +3/4 divine magic rating and a +5/8 arcane magic rating per level (let's round that up to +3/4, since that's how the math would work from the standard variant).
Marshall
03-02-04, 02:52 PM Originally posted by The Simbul
Doesnt this become horrifically broken at Epic Levels?

Continuting in a single spellcasting class beyond 20 grants you two key benefits:
1) Increased Caster Level
2) Bonus Epic Feats

Not really, since EVERYTHING Epic is based on you EBF and you gave up sixth of those to get extra low level spells per day instead of extra 10+ level spells per day. It does demonstrate how weak a feat Spell Knowledge is, tho....

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Edheldūr 02-27-04, 12:32 AM	Could someone please tell anything about magic ratings for the ones that still don't have Unearthed Arcana? (Disclaimer: I'm not asking to know exactly how it works or having it posted here)
NorthSaber 02-27-04, 12:56 AM	Essentially, the Magic Rating variant allows for multiclassed casters to enjoy a higher caster level (for spell effects, not for spells/day or spells known). The theory is that a high level character would have had enough practice and experience from other spellcasters to have learned a trick or two, even though he might not have increased his class level. For example, a Fighter 19 / Wizard 1 would have an effective caster level of 5 (although he would only get 0th and 1st level spells), and a Wizard 10 / Cleric 10 would have an effective caster level of 20 for both magic types (although he would be limited to 5th level spells). In other words, this variant allows for reasonably efficient multiclassed casters without the need for prestige classes.
Marshall 02-27-04, 01:55 AM	Its a BAB for spellcasters. Spellcasting classes get 1:1 Half casters get 1:2 Non-casters get 1:4 or nearly useless Half casters should have their MR raised to Med BAB and non-casters should get 1:2
Greyman 02-27-04, 01:58 AM	Specifically, Bard, Druid, Cleric, Sorcerer, and Wizard gain +1 MR / level. Monk, Paladin, and Ranger gain +1 MR / 2 levels. Barbarian, Fighter, and Rogue gain +1 MR / 4 levels.
Xeviat-DM 02-27-04, 03:40 AM	I'm not sure exactly what this would do to the MC spellcaster PrCs. I've considered something like this before, but when you look at a Fighter/Mage, you don't see something that works reasonably well. A 10/10 Fighter/Mage has a 12th caster level, and 5th level spells at the highest; but he has a 15 BAB and an effective d6/d8 HD. Compare that to a Bard or a Psychic Warrior, it's not very close.
Zaebos 02-27-04, 04:37 AM	However, there is an option within the variant that says, if you wish to impiment it in this way, that divine caster level and arcane caster levels don't stack, and such is the way I have implimented it into my game. It doesn't feel right in my game to have them stack.
NorthSaber 02-27-04, 05:32 AM	Originally posted by Xeviat-DM I'm not sure exactly what this would do to the MC spellcaster PrCs. I've considered something like this before, but when you look at a Fighter/Mage, you don't see something that works reasonably well. A 10/10 Fighter/Mage has a 12th caster level, and 5th level spells at the highest; but he has a 15 BAB and an effective d6/d8 HD. Compare that to a Bard or a Psychic Warrior, it's not very close. Considering all of the options available (especially with AU), fighter 10 / wizard 10 is hardly an optimized combination if you wish to create a bard-like character. Fighter ranks the lowest in the Magic Rating system, while classes like Ranger and Paladin give the same hit points, the same base attack progression, and offer magical ability as well (including healing, which IMO is an important part of the bard's repertoire). I realize you're not talking about recreating the bard, but I'll use the class as an example of a "gish" arcane/fighter class rebuilt with the Magic Rating system. If I were to substitute the bard class with a multiclass using the variants from AU, it would probably be Paladin of Freedom / Battle Sorcerer. (Paladin of Freedom provides d10 HD, full BAB, divine spellcasting, and is CG; Battle Sorcerer provides d8 HD, cleric BAB, arcane spellcasting, and no ASF in light armor.) Any combination of these two classes will do fairly well (assuming not using the "no-mixing-of-arcane-and-divine" variant of Magic Rating), but my choice would probably be PoF 8 / BaS 12. - Base attack bonus of 17/12/7/2 - 2nd level Paladin spells with effective CL of 20 - 6th level Sorcerer spells with effective CL of 16 2nd level Paladin spells don't offer the powerful healing bards normally get, but even one level in Paladin is be sufficient to use powerful healing wands.
Greyman 02-27-04, 05:35 AM	Originally posted by Xeviat-DM I'm not sure exactly what this would do to the MC spellcaster PrCs.That's easy. Those that grant +1 spellcasting per level have a magic rating of +1 per level. Those that only grant spellcasting at odd (or even) levels have a MR of +1/2 per level. And those that grant, say, only 7 spellcasting levels would have a MR of +7/10 per level (or just about 3/4, if you prefer to stick with halves and quarters). The Mystic Theurge, however, should have a MR of +1/level, definitely. It's quite enough that it is granting a gestalt of spells per day, thank you very much. Prestige classes with their own spell progression, like the Assassin and Blackguard normally have a caster level equal to their class level, so that's a MR of +1/level. This leaves us with monk-like prestige classes. Like the monk, classes like drunken master, ninja of the cresent moon, et cetera, should grant a MR of +1/2 per level, despite not having spellcaster levels. The criteria should probably be whether or not they have a flurry ability (or UAB if converting from 3.0), though perhaps Ki Strike abilities could also be a factor. Everything else is MR +1/4 per level.
Greyman 02-27-04, 05:44 AM	Originally posted by NorthSaber Any combination of these two classes will do fairly well (assuming not using the "no-mixing-of-arcane-and-divine" variant of Magic Rating), but my choice would probably be PoF 8 / BaS 12. - Base attack bonus of 17/12/7/2 - 2nd level Paladin spells with effective CL of 20 - 6th level Sorcerer spells with effective CL of 16 The effective caster level is 16 reguardless of which class you cast as. Paladins, in all their variants, have a caster level equal to half their class level, which is not so coincidentally their MR under this system. So the PoF-8/BaS-12 has a MR of (8/2)+12, or 16.
Edheldūr 02-27-04, 10:26 AM	Thanks to everyone! It seems to be a nice mechanic, and surely one I would like to try (with some other variants from UA)
NorthSaber 02-27-04, 04:17 PM	Originally posted by Greyman The effective caster level is 16 reguardless of which class you cast as. Paladins, in all their variants, have a caster level equal to half their class level, which is not so coincidentally their MR under this system. So the PoF-8/BaS-12 has a MR of (8/2)+12, or 16. Was this also true in 3.0? I thought there was something like that in the rules, but I go by 3.0 and couldn't find this in my PHB Paladin description. Thanks for correcting me though. It's still one helluva combo, if you're after a bard.
Marshall 02-28-04, 03:34 AM	Originally posted by Greyman That's easy. Those that grant +1 spellcasting per level have a magic rating of +1 per level. Those that only grant spellcasting at odd (or even) levels have a MR of +1/2 per level. And those that grant, say, only 7 spellcasting levels would have a MR of +7/10 per level (or just about 3/4, if you prefer to stick with halves and quarters). Close. If the class gets more than +1/2 levels you get 1:1 So Elemental Savant and Mindbender are 1:1 If the class gets at least 1 spellcasting bonus but not more than 1:2 it gets 1:2. Which is odd because you could theoretically get a level that gives you +1 spells per day, but not +1 MR. If the class has no casting, the you get 1/4. Tho i'd agree that monk-like classes should get 1:2 AT LEAST. I still think that half-casters need to move up to 3/4 casters and non-casters go to 1/2....
Greyman 02-28-04, 06:51 AM	Originally posted by NorthSaber Was this also true in 3.0? I thought there was something like that in the rules, but I go by 3.0 and couldn't find this in my PHB Paladin description. Thanks for correcting me though. It's still one helluva combo, if you're after a bard. Yes, 3.+ Paladins have always had a spellcaster level of half their class level.  Look in either version of the PHB under "spells" in the paladin's abilities description.  "Through 3rd level, a paladin has no caster level.  At 4th level and higher, her caster level is one-half her paladin level."Originally posted by Marshall Close. If the class gets more than +1/2 levels you get 1:1 So Elemental Savant and Mindbender are 1:1 If the class gets at least 1 spellcasting bonus but not more than 1:2 it gets 1:2. Which is odd because you could theoretically get a level that gives you +1 spells per day, but not +1 MR. If the class has no casting, the you get 1/4. Tho i'd agree that monk-like classes should get 1:2 AT LEAST.So they do. Well, restricting MR to a whole, half, or quarter, per level probably makes little difference since the fractions will be rounded down anyway, and is certainly easier to work with. Also, there aren't that many prestige classes that provide caster level progression other than +1 or +1/2. (It can be a nice bonus to those that do.) Originally posted by Marshall I still think that half-casters need to move up to 3/4 casters and non-casters go to 1/2....Well, as indicated above, Paladins and Rangers have a caster level of half their class level, so that's why they were given a Magic Rating of the same. Still, the low caster level can really hurt when trying to overcome spell resistance and such. Although spellcasting is not something on which those classes should rely, since they never get high level spells anyway. (Actually, that could be an argument for giving what they do get a little more omph.)
Marshall 02-29-04, 12:48 AM	Originally posted by Greyman So they do. Well, restricting MR to a whole, half, or quarter, per level probably makes little difference since the fractions will be rounded down anyway, and is certainly easier to work with. Also, there aren't that many prestige classes that provide caster level progression other than +1 or +1/2. (It can be a nice bonus to those that do.) We already have the med BAB chart for a 3/4 MR so ease of calculation is not a problem. Well, as indicated above, Paladins and Rangers have a caster level of half their class level, so that's why they were given a Magic Rating of the same. Still, the low caster level can really hurt when trying to overcome spell resistance and such. Although spellcasting is not something on which those classes should rely, since they never get high level spells anyway. It gets rapidly to the point where the spells on their lists that are level dependant for effect(GMW, Cure X) are useless and those that depend on level for duration or range aren't worth using the action to activate. (Actually, that could be an argument for giving what they do get a little more omph.) Exactly, the spells themselves are low enough level that even CL 20 wouldn't be that large a boost. But CL15 should be enough.
The Simbul 03-02-04, 04:42 AM	Doesnt this become horrifically broken at Epic Levels? Continuting in a single spellcasting class beyond 20 grants you two key benefits: 1) Increased Caster Level 2) Bonus Epic Feats Thus a Sor40 would have a CL of 40 and 6 Bonus Epic Feats, which presumably could be spend on Improved Spell Capacity (more spells per day) and Spell Knowledge (giving more spells in her spell repertoire) While a Sor20/Wiz20 using the MR system would have a caster level of 40, a minumim of 40 additional spells per day (4 of each level 0-9), the ability to wield an innumerable number of spells as a Wizard, and 5 bonus feats (scribe scroll + 4 bonus). The only true caveat/limitation is that such a character must divide her ability score increases between INT and CHA to have a potent Spell Save DC....however if she only cast offensive spells as a Sorcerer, whilst leaving her Wizard spell slots for the plethora of Defensive and Misellaneous spell effects (which will not be that reliant upon a save DC, if at all) , then she could easily mitigate such a limitation.
Hengwrt Ellesmere 03-02-04, 05:25 AM	I agree with Marshall about adjusting MR to match BAB. In fact, a few months ago I posted a similar idea on the boards. Rather than having just one MR, though, my system had an MR for each spellcasting class. You got 1:1 for classes of the same magic type (arcane or divine), 3:4 for cross type classes, and 1:2 for non-caster classes. I was planning on making the paladin and ranger prestige, which UA has nicely done for me, so half-casters wouldn't be an issue. So this way a 10/10 wizard/cleric would cast spells from both classes as a level 17 caster, and a 10/10 wizard/fighter would cast wizard spells as a level 15 caster. They're both only slinging level 5 spells, but they at least have some chance of beating the SR of a CR 20 foe.
Greyman 03-02-04, 06:34 AM	Originally posted by Hengwrt Ellesmere I was planning on making the paladin and ranger prestige, which UA has nicely done for me, so half-casters wouldn't be an issue.The prestige half-casters still only gain one caster level every two class levels, so it is still a slight issue. They could gain MR as divine casters one level and as noncasters the next. By your system it would average out to a +3/4 divine magic rating and a +5/8 arcane magic rating per level (let's round that up to +3/4, since that's how the math would work from the standard variant).
Marshall 03-02-04, 02:52 PM	Originally posted by The Simbul Doesnt this become horrifically broken at Epic Levels? Continuting in a single spellcasting class beyond 20 grants you two key benefits: 1) Increased Caster Level 2) Bonus Epic Feats Not really, since EVERYTHING Epic is based on you EBF and you gave up sixth of those to get extra low level spells per day instead of extra 10+ level spells per day. It does demonstrate how weak a feat Spell Knowledge is, tho....