Magic System, Balance Issues? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Magic System, Balance Issues? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Seerow
01-07-06, 10:06 PM I've been toying on and off with ideas for my own campaign when I get around to making a setting. The main thing I've wanted to do is alter magic, as I haven't been fond of how it works since first edition. I have never liked the idea for spell slots, and Ive never liked the idea of one person knowing every spell ever made in the history of the world, and then some. So basically, this is toning down magic.

So, my house rules will be as such. The Wizard and Sorcerer classes as are, no longer exist. In their place you now have a specialist variant for each school of magic. Warmage and Dread Necro already fill the hole for Evocation and Necromancy, the other schools will either be homebrew in the same vein or the class Wizards releases if they make other similar classes in the future.

But as I've already said, I dislike spellslots. So, I will be using a mana system, probably the one presented on this same forum, though I'll add my own tweaks to it. The biggest problem of controlling who gets what spells already taken care of by the nature of the classes Im using restricted spell lists. I would, however, allow for researching of spells within their realm of expertise. (As opposed to it having a totally static spell list save for Advanced Learning)

But... as these are to take the place of Wizards (simply using them in place of specialist, and elliminating the Generalist), they are now Intelligence based instead of Charisma based. I may alter this for certain cases (The Enchantment specialist class probably warrants Charisma instead of intelligence).

Now, to take the place of a generalist, there WILL be something akin to a Sorcerer. The class will be limited to 7th level spells, but will have the same MP pool as the aformentioned specialists, maybe a bit more, but most likely the same. In exchange for this lack of 8th and 9th level spells, they get to choose their spell lists, and will be given 1-1/2 or 2 times more spells known than the standard sorcerer. Additionally, an ability similar to Wilder's Surge, which may let them cast their weaker spells in a more powerful version.

An alternate idea to the Wilder's Surge I had was to give them a reserve pool of manapoints that may be applied to Metamagic spontaneously, allowing them to surpass their normal limitations for such things. While similar in concept, it prevents them from boosting a power beyond the 13 Mana that it would take for a 7th level spell unless they use the metamagic.

This caster would be spontaneous as the others, but using Charisma for their spells as per traditional spontaneous casters.

Obviously, I haven't completely finalized this as Im not sure how the two would balance against each other (Generalization/Utility at the expense of higher spell slots, with a few neat features thrown in), but I'm mostly set on the course of giving the generalist no top-tier spells and all casters being Spontaneous, and no unlimited spell selections a la the Wizard.

Rangers and Paladins get converted to the non spell-casting variants. They're simple enough to deal with.

Bards get their spellcasting reduced to something along the lines of what Ranger and Paladins once had, no more than 4th level spells, much lower manapool, spells coming into play at higher levels. In exchange bardic music will be buffed somewhat, and the bard will probably be bumped to a d8 hit die.

So that leaves the Divine casters. They're generally referred to as more powerful than the arcane casters, so that leaves the trick of restricting them in a similar fashion, without taking it too far.

First, Clerics. None of this "Atheist Cleric" BS I see around, where they cherry pick what they want. If you want a Cleric of a concept, that concept better have enough of a following to have other Clerics of the same concept, and at that point the concept has probably caused the birth of a new god.

Now, bump them down to Medium Armor, at least. I know the Cleric's going to be up front healing people, but the Cleric shouldn't be a warrior. I've never seen a cleric in history running around in Full Plate, he can deal with a chain shirt. If it's that important to him, there's always Battle Caster/Armor Proficiency.

Next, Divine Metamagic, if not outright banned, is not coming from turning attempts. Period. I won't see a 3rd level character running around with Persisted spells that a Wizard could only dream of casting because of a loophole. I'm thinking either ban Divine Metamagic, or make it work like normal Metamagic, and just cut out the need to take the feat twice to use it as Divine.

Finally, to reflect the Cleric's god granting him spells, the god grants spells that actually relate to his domains, as opposed to any spell on this list. To make up for this more restricted list, the Cleric gains an extra one of his Deities domains every 6 levels. (Need to make sure every Deity has at least 5 Domains though)

Alternatively, a sphere cleric system could work. With every god granting access to certain spheres. Domains still give their powers, but the spells are inconsequential as they should become a part of the spheres. Either way, they become spontaneous casters.

Yeah, Im fairly unsure of what to do with Cleric here. While it's obviously a nerf, the Arcane classes got a fairly heavy nerf as well (Warmage is ranked somewhere around 11th compared to 3rd for Wizard. Not sure about DN, but it shouldn't be much higher since it has many of the same limitations). I'm not sure if after all this it's still relatively overpowered, or if it's far too weak now. I guess it depends a lot on how the spheres are aranged.... but any insight here would be appreciated.

For Druids, it's even harder trying to figure out what to do with them...

Starting with Wildshape, they retain their normal array of forms. However, any large combat-type forms duration is 1 minute/level as opposed to an hour. Other forms, including things like small birds, rats, squirrels, lizards, anything that would be useless in combat but could be used for transport or something similar, the duration stays at 1 hour/level. If you need an in-game reason, then a large hulking form in the middle of a fight takes more energy to keep than a small form you're using to spy on the local ruling lord. Basically, I want it to keep the utility purpose while losing it's incredible power in combat.

Also considering removing Natural Spell. Not sure what to do with that, really. I think the nerf above is enough to make Natural Spell moot, but comments are appreciated.

The other abilities of druid are fairly inconsequential, as I like the way animal companion works (unless someone's making a supermount... but in that case just nerf Halfling Outrider, not the companion), but the spellcasting still poses something of an issue. All other classes have been greatly restricted, but there's no clear-cut way to restrict the druid. They worship nature, so it doesn't make sense to give nature different spheres a la Clerics... unless Druids must worship a specific aspect of nature, but I'm not sure about that. I can't just cut off access to more powerful spells as I did with the Sorcerer, as several of those spells are unique. I don't want to cut off access to spells altogether, just make them much more limited. Perhaps just giving them spells known as a Sorcerer, and slightly less MP than the other casters, but they get some nifty other things, so I think it might still be fair.

Yeah... sorry that was so long. But the main question I have is, would this be balanced as I described it? If not, what needs to be changed?
elven warriorXX
01-08-06, 11:10 AM I think it looks great and is very balanced. I would like to see more of this system as it is very new and different. I too have made the druids Wildshape be of 1/minute but only animals that are not harmful (well not a lot harmful). I have made the druid a spontaneous caster as I never liked the druid to be a "Cleric of the wild" so I made them more of a elemental caster. If you need help on the specialized classes you can look at my Master Enchanter class found here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=564487).
Seerow
01-09-06, 01:36 PM If you paid attention I was one of the first to reply to that topic, and I did so a bit before posting this one ^~

That said, thank you for the input. This probably won't get an update until I get into the flow of my new classes and find a few hours of time again though. Right now Im looking for input on which ideas would work better, which need work, that sort of thing. Any and all comments, even negative, are appreciated.
DragonLord101
01-10-06, 04:17 PM I don't really agree with your system. Basically all classes are very well balanced already. Yes, wizards are powerful at high levels, but they have to play smart to survive up to high level, as they have the lowest hitpoints and cannot wear armor. If DM's are silly enough to keep giving them more and more spells without them have to work for it or pay for it, then that is the DM's fault for allowing them to get them that readily (if you have an issue with it, as they have a very limited number of spells they can cast per day anyway).

The other changes I disagree with as well, but the main point to my post is that ANY class, in the hands of a good player, can be overpowered.
Seerow
01-10-06, 10:47 PM So, are you trying to tell me that a Wizard who knows every spell in the book is evenly balanced with a plain fighter? I don't think so. The fact that the top 3 classes are consistently ranked Druid-Cleric-Wizard happens for a reason, and it's not because the classes are weak.

Anyway, that's not the point of this thread. I don't care if you prefer the regular system or not, Im asking within the system I have put forth is there balance?

(And to claim all classes are balanced already after looking at a Druid... jeeze, you're an optimist)
DragonLord101
01-12-06, 07:33 AM A couple of things you need to remember, wizards need spellbooks to store their spells, one book doesn't hold many spells... can you imagine the amount of spell books one needs to hold all spells? (and don't give them one that holds all.... maybe make portable holes or bags of holding not able to hold spell books...... make them erase all magic written or something if their spell books are placed inside.... what is the weight of 150 books? And whats the average Str for a Wizard..... makes things hard).

Spell components for more powerful spells cost an amazing amount... and if they cast many powerful spells, they need to spend a crap load of money to be able to cast more again. (And if you make sure not to give out too much cash, it will be a difficult time for them to cast many of the powerful spells.)

Many spells, especially powerful ones are not readily available everywhere, and should not just be thrown at a character willy nilly. Give them a huge quest to even get 1 powerful spell... it makes it much harder for them to gain power.

Follow these, and the drastic measures that you are proposing would not need doing in the first place.

But, as you said, thats not what this post is all about... I don't agree with it, nor think it is fair, unless the DM gives too much to a character and allows it to become too powerful in the first place... then I guess the system could work well.

After saying that, I must say some of the ideas, such as enchanters using Cha instead of Int, I do find interesting though.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Seerow 01-07-06, 10:06 PM	I've been toying on and off with ideas for my own campaign when I get around to making a setting. The main thing I've wanted to do is alter magic, as I haven't been fond of how it works since first edition. I have never liked the idea for spell slots, and Ive never liked the idea of one person knowing every spell ever made in the history of the world, and then some. So basically, this is toning down magic. So, my house rules will be as such. The Wizard and Sorcerer classes as are, no longer exist. In their place you now have a specialist variant for each school of magic. Warmage and Dread Necro already fill the hole for Evocation and Necromancy, the other schools will either be homebrew in the same vein or the class Wizards releases if they make other similar classes in the future. But as I've already said, I dislike spellslots. So, I will be using a mana system, probably the one presented on this same forum, though I'll add my own tweaks to it. The biggest problem of controlling who gets what spells already taken care of by the nature of the classes Im using restricted spell lists. I would, however, allow for researching of spells within their realm of expertise. (As opposed to it having a totally static spell list save for Advanced Learning) But... as these are to take the place of Wizards (simply using them in place of specialist, and elliminating the Generalist), they are now Intelligence based instead of Charisma based. I may alter this for certain cases (The Enchantment specialist class probably warrants Charisma instead of intelligence). Now, to take the place of a generalist, there WILL be something akin to a Sorcerer. The class will be limited to 7th level spells, but will have the same MP pool as the aformentioned specialists, maybe a bit more, but most likely the same. In exchange for this lack of 8th and 9th level spells, they get to choose their spell lists, and will be given 1-1/2 or 2 times more spells known than the standard sorcerer. Additionally, an ability similar to Wilder's Surge, which may let them cast their weaker spells in a more powerful version. An alternate idea to the Wilder's Surge I had was to give them a reserve pool of manapoints that may be applied to Metamagic spontaneously, allowing them to surpass their normal limitations for such things. While similar in concept, it prevents them from boosting a power beyond the 13 Mana that it would take for a 7th level spell unless they use the metamagic. This caster would be spontaneous as the others, but using Charisma for their spells as per traditional spontaneous casters. Obviously, I haven't completely finalized this as Im not sure how the two would balance against each other (Generalization/Utility at the expense of higher spell slots, with a few neat features thrown in), but I'm mostly set on the course of giving the generalist no top-tier spells and all casters being Spontaneous, and no unlimited spell selections a la the Wizard. Rangers and Paladins get converted to the non spell-casting variants. They're simple enough to deal with. Bards get their spellcasting reduced to something along the lines of what Ranger and Paladins once had, no more than 4th level spells, much lower manapool, spells coming into play at higher levels. In exchange bardic music will be buffed somewhat, and the bard will probably be bumped to a d8 hit die. So that leaves the Divine casters. They're generally referred to as more powerful than the arcane casters, so that leaves the trick of restricting them in a similar fashion, without taking it too far. First, Clerics. None of this "Atheist Cleric" BS I see around, where they cherry pick what they want. If you want a Cleric of a concept, that concept better have enough of a following to have other Clerics of the same concept, and at that point the concept has probably caused the birth of a new god. Now, bump them down to Medium Armor, at least. I know the Cleric's going to be up front healing people, but the Cleric shouldn't be a warrior. I've never seen a cleric in history running around in Full Plate, he can deal with a chain shirt. If it's that important to him, there's always Battle Caster/Armor Proficiency. Next, Divine Metamagic, if not outright banned, is not coming from turning attempts. Period. I won't see a 3rd level character running around with Persisted spells that a Wizard could only dream of casting because of a loophole. I'm thinking either ban Divine Metamagic, or make it work like normal Metamagic, and just cut out the need to take the feat twice to use it as Divine. Finally, to reflect the Cleric's god granting him spells, the god grants spells that actually relate to his domains, as opposed to any spell on this list. To make up for this more restricted list, the Cleric gains an extra one of his Deities domains every 6 levels. (Need to make sure every Deity has at least 5 Domains though) Alternatively, a sphere cleric system could work. With every god granting access to certain spheres. Domains still give their powers, but the spells are inconsequential as they should become a part of the spheres. Either way, they become spontaneous casters. Yeah, Im fairly unsure of what to do with Cleric here. While it's obviously a nerf, the Arcane classes got a fairly heavy nerf as well (Warmage is ranked somewhere around 11th compared to 3rd for Wizard. Not sure about DN, but it shouldn't be much higher since it has many of the same limitations). I'm not sure if after all this it's still relatively overpowered, or if it's far too weak now. I guess it depends a lot on how the spheres are aranged.... but any insight here would be appreciated. For Druids, it's even harder trying to figure out what to do with them... Starting with Wildshape, they retain their normal array of forms. However, any large combat-type forms duration is 1 minute/level as opposed to an hour. Other forms, including things like small birds, rats, squirrels, lizards, anything that would be useless in combat but could be used for transport or something similar, the duration stays at 1 hour/level. If you need an in-game reason, then a large hulking form in the middle of a fight takes more energy to keep than a small form you're using to spy on the local ruling lord. Basically, I want it to keep the utility purpose while losing it's incredible power in combat. Also considering removing Natural Spell. Not sure what to do with that, really. I think the nerf above is enough to make Natural Spell moot, but comments are appreciated. The other abilities of druid are fairly inconsequential, as I like the way animal companion works (unless someone's making a supermount... but in that case just nerf Halfling Outrider, not the companion), but the spellcasting still poses something of an issue. All other classes have been greatly restricted, but there's no clear-cut way to restrict the druid. They worship nature, so it doesn't make sense to give nature different spheres a la Clerics... unless Druids must worship a specific aspect of nature, but I'm not sure about that. I can't just cut off access to more powerful spells as I did with the Sorcerer, as several of those spells are unique. I don't want to cut off access to spells altogether, just make them much more limited. Perhaps just giving them spells known as a Sorcerer, and slightly less MP than the other casters, but they get some nifty other things, so I think it might still be fair. Yeah... sorry that was so long. But the main question I have is, would this be balanced as I described it? If not, what needs to be changed?
elven warriorXX 01-08-06, 11:10 AM	I think it looks great and is very balanced. I would like to see more of this system as it is very new and different. I too have made the druids Wildshape be of 1/minute but only animals that are not harmful (well not a lot harmful). I have made the druid a spontaneous caster as I never liked the druid to be a "Cleric of the wild" so I made them more of a elemental caster. If you need help on the specialized classes you can look at my Master Enchanter class found here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=564487).
Seerow 01-09-06, 01:36 PM	If you paid attention I was one of the first to reply to that topic, and I did so a bit before posting this one ^~ That said, thank you for the input. This probably won't get an update until I get into the flow of my new classes and find a few hours of time again though. Right now Im looking for input on which ideas would work better, which need work, that sort of thing. Any and all comments, even negative, are appreciated.
DragonLord101 01-10-06, 04:17 PM	I don't really agree with your system. Basically all classes are very well balanced already. Yes, wizards are powerful at high levels, but they have to play smart to survive up to high level, as they have the lowest hitpoints and cannot wear armor. If DM's are silly enough to keep giving them more and more spells without them have to work for it or pay for it, then that is the DM's fault for allowing them to get them that readily (if you have an issue with it, as they have a very limited number of spells they can cast per day anyway). The other changes I disagree with as well, but the main point to my post is that ANY class, in the hands of a good player, can be overpowered.
Seerow 01-10-06, 10:47 PM	So, are you trying to tell me that a Wizard who knows every spell in the book is evenly balanced with a plain fighter? I don't think so. The fact that the top 3 classes are consistently ranked Druid-Cleric-Wizard happens for a reason, and it's not because the classes are weak. Anyway, that's not the point of this thread. I don't care if you prefer the regular system or not, Im asking within the system I have put forth is there balance? (And to claim all classes are balanced already after looking at a Druid... jeeze, you're an optimist)
DragonLord101 01-12-06, 07:33 AM	A couple of things you need to remember, wizards need spellbooks to store their spells, one book doesn't hold many spells... can you imagine the amount of spell books one needs to hold all spells? (and don't give them one that holds all.... maybe make portable holes or bags of holding not able to hold spell books...... make them erase all magic written or something if their spell books are placed inside.... what is the weight of 150 books? And whats the average Str for a Wizard..... makes things hard). Spell components for more powerful spells cost an amazing amount... and if they cast many powerful spells, they need to spend a crap load of money to be able to cast more again. (And if you make sure not to give out too much cash, it will be a difficult time for them to cast many of the powerful spells.) Many spells, especially powerful ones are not readily available everywhere, and should not just be thrown at a character willy nilly. Give them a huge quest to even get 1 powerful spell... it makes it much harder for them to gain power. Follow these, and the drastic measures that you are proposing would not need doing in the first place. But, as you said, thats not what this post is all about... I don't agree with it, nor think it is fair, unless the DM gives too much to a character and allows it to become too powerful in the first place... then I guess the system could work well. After saying that, I must say some of the ideas, such as enchanters using Cha instead of Int, I do find interesting though.