Magic System Modification: Uses Mana, decreases average power/round for casters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Magic System Modification: Uses Mana, decreases average power/round for casters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Drachasor
11-04-06, 11:26 PM Note: I originally posted this in "Lets Redo the Vancian-system," (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=728831) a thread in the Spells and Magic forum. I included my thoughts on other things I've tried in case someone on the boards can find something workable in them. I also included my thoughts on the problems a change should try to resolve.

I've been working on this a lot lately. My work was independent of this thread, but it looks like some of what I came up with can be mixed in with what has come here.

What came before:

What I had the other day, in what I consider a failed attempt to fix things, was based on the Psionic Focus concept. Every character could have more than one Psionic Focus at a time, initially this was capped at 2+(Character Level/2). To cast a spell, you had to have a number of Foci equal to the Spell Level, and then exhaust a Foci. To limit resources per day, it also cost mana (equal to the spell level). This was a bit too difficult to implement though. It involves keeping track of 2 different, fixed numbers, and for a DM it would involve waaay to much work (multiple creatures with multiple foci...etc).

As a side, I had every character have foci and mana. I designed some feats for Fighters and other non-casters so that they could use their mana and foci to do various special (and non-magical) abilities. In my draft, I used the term "Chi" instead of "Mana". I've since settled on the idea of using the word "Mana" instead, just because it is a bit more culturally generic, imho.

A few other notes on failures:

I also messed around with just having a mana pool for spells. The catch was that the pool was fairly small (it got to 130 in the initial version at 20th level), and using Mana below the halfway point caused "Mystic Damage" equal to the Mana spent. "Mystic Damage" was non-lethal Damage that could only be recovered naturally (e.g. magic doesn't get rid of it). This system has the obviously problem of NOT cutting down the damage output of a spellcaster in a given amount of time.

Current Thoughts:

Basic Goals:

Fixing the magic system is a complicated thing. I think the guidelines for balancing out magic at various levels are as follows:

1. In nearly EVERY game, the primary balancing point is this: How much can a Character do in a span of a rounds? This question revolves around power in the 1-8 round range, primarily, and specifically average "power" per round over a 4-8 round span.
2. The secondary balancing point is this: How often in a day can a character acheive this level of power? This is a secondary balance point, since sometimes there is only one encounter per day, and so the first balancing point needs to be satisfied first.

Of course, the second balancing point is important. I think we can agree that being able to have weary and tired characters who are at a breaking point is important. So having all abilities renewable after an individual combat is not good. Likewise, we can't depend on non-renewing factors over a whole day to balance out characters in one fight. We need to balance characters in one fight seperately from over a whole day. The balance doesn't have to be perfect in either case, but clearly there's a lot of room for improvement.

Here's what I think this leads to regarding spellcasters and non-casters:

A. Spellcaster power at low levels (especially Wizards and Sorcerers) is too weak. This should be increased. I consider this range to be around level 6 and below (though levels 5-6 are where Casters START to come into their own for a little bit...during the time they can cast 3rd level spells and only during that time).
B. Spellcaster power at mid to high levels (say 9+) is too much.
C. Non-casters should be given more interesting options to choose from. Generally they should be given more powerful options at higher levels. That way Spellcasters don't need to be hit repeatedly over the head to balance things at very high levels.
D. Some spells are broken. If you are going to houserule the system, then these spells need to be reworked or removed. (Mordekainen's Disjunction is a big example, but so are Polymorph and Shapechange as many of us know).
D.a I'd say generally there is something really wrong with how "save or die" spells are working. When they work, they're usually too good.

I welcome constructive criticism and thoughts on the above points. (Though, I don't want to get into a big arguement over point D....I don't think it is going to have a big impact on the discussion; it is somewhat of a seperate problem to deal with).

Proposal:

Caster Level: All classes grant caster levels. Fighters, Barbarians, Monks, and Rogues have a caster level equal to one-half their class level. Paladins and Rangers have caster level equal to 3/4 their class level. As standard, Bards, Clerics, Wizards, and Sorcerers have a caster level equal to their class level.

Mana: Mana is used to power special abilities and cast spells. The cost of a special ability depends on the ability. Spells generally cost an amount of mana equal to their spell level. (Though perhaps this can be modified some of a caster's spells with magical items and/or feats).

Mana Pool: All characters have a Mana Pool. For most, this is equal to their character level. Bard, Paladin, and Ranger levels give 2 Mana for each class level. Sorcerers, Wizards, and Clerics gain 3 Mana for each class level. All casters have their Mana Pool increased by their Casting Ability Modifier. A Character's Mana Pool does not replenish while a character is active. As with regaining spell slots in standard D&D, a character must rest for 8 hours to replenish his Mana Pool. The following chart details this.

Class Max Base Mana Pool By Class and Level
Level Fighter/Rogue/Monk Bard/Paladin/Ranger Wizard/Sorceror/Druid/Cleric
1 2 2 2
2 4 4 4
3 6 6 7
4 8 8 10
5 10 11 14
6 12 14 18
7 14 17 23
8 16 20 28
9 18 24 34
10 20 28 40
11 22 32 47
12 24 36 54
13 26 41 62
14 28 46 70
15 30 51 79
16 32 56 88
17 34 62 98
18 36 68 108
19 38 74 119
20 40 80 130
(Note: These numbers might need some adjusting)
For instance, Karzox the level 6 Wizard has a full Mana Pool, which is 21 Mana (3*6 for his level, and 3 more for his intelligence of 16). Karzox has no Available Mana at the moment, and wants to cast Magic Missile on an oncoming goblin. So Karzox spends a move action to gather 1 Mana, which lowers his Mana Pool down to 20 Mana, then he spends a standard action to cast Magic Missile (killing the goblin). Karzox now has 20 Dormant Mana to use for the rest of the day.
Later after casting 1 fireball, 1 slow, 3 magic missiles, mage armor, and some other spells, Karzox is down to a Mana Pool of 4. Luckily he thinks he is safe so he decides to rest. After resting successfully for 8 hours, Karzox is back to a full Mana Pool of 21.

Available and Dormant Mana: Mana is generally not immediately available to a character. It represents a deep well of internal strength that takes time to bring forth. Mana that can be immediately used is called "Available Mana." Mana in a Character's Mana Pool is called "Dormant Mana", and is not available for immediate use. Normally "Dormant Mana" can simply be discussed as Mana in the Mana Pool. A character's Mana Pool represents how much Dormant Mana he has out of his total possible Dormant Mana. A character cannot have more Available Mana this his caster level / 2, rounded up.

Making Mana Available: A character can focus and spend time to turn Dormant Mana into Available Mana. This is called "Gathering Mana." When a character gathers an amount of mana, that amount is subtracted from his Dormant Mana and added to his Available Mana.
Spending a Move Action gathers Caster Level / 4 Mana, rounded down. Minimum 1.
Spending a Standard Action gathers Caster Level / 4 Mana, rounded up.
Spending a Full-Round Action gathers Caster Level / 2 Mana, rounded up. Minimum 2 (after 2nd level -- since you can't have more Available Mana then your Caster Level / 2, rounded up).
The following table shows the amount of Mana that can be gathered for a given caster level.
Caster Amount of Mana Gather by spending a....
Level Move Action Standard Action Full Round Action
1 1 1 1
2 1 1 2
3 1 1 2
4 1 1 2
5 1 2 3
6 1 2 3
7 1 2 4
8 2 2 4
9 2 3 5
10 2 3 5
11 2 3 6
12 3 3 6
13 3 4 7
14 3 4 7
15 3 4 8
16 4 4 8
17 4 5 9
18 4 5 9
19 4 5 10
20 5 5 10

Magic Burn: Mana cannot be kept available indefinitely. Over a period of one hour, you can keep some Mana Available that you do not spend for no more than your Caster Level + Charisma Modifier in minutes. Mana that you make available and then spend does not count towards this limit. If you exceed this limit, then all Mana you have available immediately becomes Dormant, and you take an amount of non-lethal damage equal to this amount. Additionally, you cannot Gather Mana again for one hour.
Sorcerors and other spontaneous casters keeping an amount of Mana available equal to 1/3 of their Caster Level or less (rounded up) can ignore Magic Burn.

(The above is meant to prevent people from keeping mana available all the time, but is put into a time-frame so that it shouldn't affect anyone who isn't trying to abuse the system -- it may be unnecessary though. It is also used to help distinguish Sorcerers from Wizards).

Releasing Mana: At any time as a free action, Available Mana can be returned to the Mana Pool. However, you cannot have more mana in your Mana Pool than your normal limit.

Feat Thoughts and Reserve Feats

I think reserve feats are important for a system like this. Either have them require an amount of Dormant Mana equal to the spell level, or an amount of available mana equal to the spell level. Probably given Reserve Feats in terms of extra bonus feats is a good idea, and perhaps some more powerful reserve feats that require other reserve feats. Obviously the ability to use a reserve feat while gathering mana is important.

For other classes, such as non-casters in particular, I think you can easily give them abilities that allow them to use their Mana for some impressive non-magical effects. I have a few feat ideas below, but obviously some broader and more interesting ideas are needed. (Of course, feats that basically duplicating some of the psionic feats that require a focus can also be relatively painlessly converted).

New Feats (Some feats that demonstrate some of the ways to use the above system):

Combat Gathering
You can Gather Mana even while you attack your enemies.
Prerequisite: Caster Level 4
Benefits: In a turn where you make a standard attack, you can also spend a move action to Gather Mana as if you were spending a standard action on gathering.
Normal: You cannot make two standard actions of any sort in one round.

Militant Gathering [Fighter]
When you strike well, you natural strength comes to the surface.
Prerequesite: Base Attack Bonus +8
Benefits: When roll an 19 or 20 on an attack roll and hit, you can choose to gather 1 Mana.

Terrible Swift Sword [Fighter]
Your focus on physical prowess in exclusion of mystical concerns is not without its own rewards.
Prerequisite: Base Attack Bonus +12
Benefits: You can spend an amount of available Mana up to half your Base Attack Bonus. For one round you gain this bonus to attack and damage rolls.
Special: You cannot learn or use this feat if you can cast spells.
(note: this should probably have some other prerequisites).
(additional note: I'd like some ideas on non-attack/damage bonus and non-temporary hitpoints feats for fighters and rogues-- though obviously a feat for Rogues could give them the ability to sneak attack anything if they spend mana).

(I'll add more feats in time)

Additional Thoughts:

The Mana/Level might be too low. This could either be increased or feats and magical items could be made that reduce the casting cost of spells. If the latter is used, then the Mana Gathering table should be adjusted.

Additionally, though related to the previous thought, Wizards and Sorcerers might still be too weak, or Clerics/Druids too strong. One solution is to rewrite these classes. For wizards and sorcerers you could give them both access to simple weapons (I know sorcs already have this), a d6 hit die, and medium BAB. Clerics would lose their ability to cast spells in medium and heavy armor and their related proficiencies thereof (Paladins would need some work too here). Add and remove some special abilities should fix things up there.

Of course, for myself I have a bit more of an ambitious plan. I'd like to axe the current spellcasting classes (the Paladin, Ranger, and Bard would be reworked). Wizards, Druids, Clerics, and Sorcerers would be combined into one class (though you could make two different classes if you insist on an arcane/divine spellcasting divide). This class would choose its spellcasting ability (wisdom or intelligence). This choice might govern wether it got one special ability or another. It would get access to a limited number of "spheres" of magic, though more would be learned through feats or just increasing in level. Spells would be learned wizard-style, though no spellbook would be needed.

A magic sphere would be more specific than a school, but general cover a few spells for each level (e.g. an Earth Sphere would grant access to any spell or version of a spell with the [Earth] descriptor). There would probably be 20 or more spheres altogether, and there'd be some overlap in spells between them (for instance, a Summoning Sphere and the Earth Sphere would share Summon Nature's Ally [Earth] spells). I've already started working on spheres...I think I'd have access start with 4 spheres, so a self-styled Elementalist could choose Earth, Air, Fire, and Water at first level. Each mage would then be a lot more unique in what he could do, and I think generally it would be more interesting and fun to play.

Well, that's all I have at the moment. I'm still working on the list of spells by Sphere, that will take some time to do, but when I've got it complete I'll post it here, as well as the alternate classes that go with it.

-Drachasor

PS. I used Mana Cost = Spell Level since I think adding and subtracting by numbers greater than 10 may take up too much time and effort for some players. I never liked the spellpoint systems for this reason.

Edit: Added minimums for mana gathering. Added Releasing Mana.
Drachasor
11-04-06, 11:29 PM Here's an example of the system at work:

Largely the timing is an issue of a round or half-round. Obviously a Caster would prefer to do something every round, so that encourages the casting of lower level spells.

The Move Action Mana Gathering rate is 1/4 Caster Level / 4, round down.
The average caster has access to spells of a level equal to Caster Level/2, round up. That means that the first half of a caster's spell levels, rounded down, can be cost once per round. E.G. a 9th level Wizard could cast 1st and 2nd level spells once per round (5/2, round down). Since from the Move Action he is Gathering 2 Mana from his Mana Pool.
At 11th level he could cast 1st-3rd level spells once per round. (I'm assuming spells that are a standard action to cast).

Of course, with the 9th level example, the Wizard could gather 2 Mana the first round, cast a 1st level spell, then gather 2 more points the second round and cast a 3rd level spell. That's because he has 1 available Mana from the previous round leftover. (as far as magic burn is concerned, btw, 1-round carry-overs are insignificant compared to the limitation of minutes).

If he knew he was going to need magic, he could have potentially started the combat with 5 Available Mana.

Round 1: 5th level spell, gather 2 Mana (5-5+2 for 2 available mana at the end of the round).
Round 2: gather 2 Mana, cast a 4th level spell (0 available Mana at the end of the round).

Or he could cast a bunch of third level spells:
Round 1: 3rd level spell, gather 2. 5-3+2=4 am (available mana)
Round 2: 3rd level spell, gather 2. 3 am
Round 3: 3rd level spell, gather 2. 2 am
Round 4: gather 2, 3rd level spell. 1 am
Round 5: gather 2, 3rd level spell. 0 am
Drachasor
11-04-06, 11:39 PM Space Reserved for spells listed by sphere and alternate magic classes.

--Side-Note, with the above system I do think upping the Wizard/Sorc BAB progression to medium, and their hit dice to d6 -- this requires some minor adjustments to some prestige classes on a case-by-case basis. All casters should probably cast spells more or less spontaneously, with wizards needing to prepare spells from their list to be able to spontaneously cast them. The problem here is that it makes the Sorc weak...but the Sorc needs some sort of fix anyhow (beyond the aforementioned ability to maintain available mana). It might not be bad idea to reduce the armor clerics can wear to light, or medium and light. Druids are a bit more tricky to fix, given their wildshape ability -- I welcome thoughts on that.

-Drachasor

Edit: Comment on spontaneous casting.
Soulsong
11-05-06, 11:02 PM I like what you are doing here. In general, I like the approach, but it seems a bit complex. I will review it some more (in case I am just being too resistant to this specific change - even though I find the vancian mechanic long past its usefulness), but I think it needs to be simplified somehow.

A counterpoint to this is that mana management is really probably not much more bookkeeping than filling and tracking used spell-slots. Most of this probably gets back to confidence/trust that fellow players know how to use and actually do use the system appropriately.

Perhaps it is my inherent dislike of tables?
Might there be some calculated value in place of a table, ie 2xlev, 4xlev, 6xlev, or something similar?

I know this adds complexity (which I just said I was against above), but maybe this could be combined with a casting check with penalties above a certain caster level. This way, even though casters get larger mana pools at lower levels, they would still be limited in the spells they could cast. Perhaps failing casting checks results in loosing more than the standard mana?

good ideas at any rate.
Drachasor
11-06-06, 12:30 PM A better system for a computer, I think. At least that's my decision now. Anyone is free to use any of my ideas here, but as far as the Mana Gathering idea goes, I am not going to develop it further.

I've just gotten access to the Tome of Battle, and I've been looking over it a lot. I think basing a magic system off of the mechanics for maneuvers in there has a lot of promise. Ideally it shouldn't require too much work (though for aesthetic and "realism" reasons I'm going to keep the idea of having spell points/mana/whatever and my above cost/spell level system).*

As for my idea for seperating out schools and such into smaller "Spheres", I will continue with that after I've worked on my above project. I think the Tome of Battle System has a lot of promise. I'll post my development on this in another thread later today.

-Drachasor

*So Spellcasters would still have a daily limit, as well as a limitation on how they can act in an encounter.
Pellanor
11-09-06, 07:01 PM Magic Burn: Mana cannot be kept available indefinitely. Over a period of one hour, you can keep some Mana Available that you do not spend for no more than your Caster Level + Charisma Modifier in minutes. Mana that you make available and then spend does not count towards this limit. If you exceed this limit, then all Mana you have available immediately becomes Dormant, and you take an amount of non-lethal damage equal to this amount. Additionally, you cannot Gather Mana again for one hour.
Fear my 1st level Gnomish Wizard and his 7 Charisma! Mana burn after -1 minutes!:dancin:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Drachasor 11-04-06, 11:26 PM	Note: I originally posted this in "Lets Redo the Vancian-system," (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=728831) a thread in the Spells and Magic forum. I included my thoughts on other things I've tried in case someone on the boards can find something workable in them. I also included my thoughts on the problems a change should try to resolve. I've been working on this a lot lately. My work was independent of this thread, but it looks like some of what I came up with can be mixed in with what has come here. What came before: What I had the other day, in what I consider a failed attempt to fix things, was based on the Psionic Focus concept. Every character could have more than one Psionic Focus at a time, initially this was capped at 2+(Character Level/2). To cast a spell, you had to have a number of Foci equal to the Spell Level, and then exhaust a Foci. To limit resources per day, it also cost mana (equal to the spell level). This was a bit too difficult to implement though. It involves keeping track of 2 different, fixed numbers, and for a DM it would involve waaay to much work (multiple creatures with multiple foci...etc). As a side, I had every character have foci and mana. I designed some feats for Fighters and other non-casters so that they could use their mana and foci to do various special (and non-magical) abilities. In my draft, I used the term "Chi" instead of "Mana". I've since settled on the idea of using the word "Mana" instead, just because it is a bit more culturally generic, imho. A few other notes on failures: I also messed around with just having a mana pool for spells. The catch was that the pool was fairly small (it got to 130 in the initial version at 20th level), and using Mana below the halfway point caused "Mystic Damage" equal to the Mana spent. "Mystic Damage" was non-lethal Damage that could only be recovered naturally (e.g. magic doesn't get rid of it). This system has the obviously problem of NOT cutting down the damage output of a spellcaster in a given amount of time. Current Thoughts: Basic Goals: Fixing the magic system is a complicated thing. I think the guidelines for balancing out magic at various levels are as follows: 1. In nearly EVERY game, the primary balancing point is this: How much can a Character do in a span of a rounds? This question revolves around power in the 1-8 round range, primarily, and specifically average "power" per round over a 4-8 round span. 2. The secondary balancing point is this: How often in a day can a character acheive this level of power? This is a secondary balance point, since sometimes there is only one encounter per day, and so the first balancing point needs to be satisfied first. Of course, the second balancing point is important. I think we can agree that being able to have weary and tired characters who are at a breaking point is important. So having all abilities renewable after an individual combat is not good. Likewise, we can't depend on non-renewing factors over a whole day to balance out characters in one fight. We need to balance characters in one fight seperately from over a whole day. The balance doesn't have to be perfect in either case, but clearly there's a lot of room for improvement. Here's what I think this leads to regarding spellcasters and non-casters: A. Spellcaster power at low levels (especially Wizards and Sorcerers) is too weak. This should be increased. I consider this range to be around level 6 and below (though levels 5-6 are where Casters START to come into their own for a little bit...during the time they can cast 3rd level spells and only during that time). B. Spellcaster power at mid to high levels (say 9+) is too much. C. Non-casters should be given more interesting options to choose from. Generally they should be given more powerful options at higher levels. That way Spellcasters don't need to be hit repeatedly over the head to balance things at very high levels. D. Some spells are broken. If you are going to houserule the system, then these spells need to be reworked or removed. (Mordekainen's Disjunction is a big example, but so are Polymorph and Shapechange as many of us know). D.a I'd say generally there is something really wrong with how "save or die" spells are working. When they work, they're usually too good. I welcome constructive criticism and thoughts on the above points. (Though, I don't want to get into a big arguement over point D....I don't think it is going to have a big impact on the discussion; it is somewhat of a seperate problem to deal with). Proposal: Caster Level: All classes grant caster levels. Fighters, Barbarians, Monks, and Rogues have a caster level equal to one-half their class level. Paladins and Rangers have caster level equal to 3/4 their class level. As standard, Bards, Clerics, Wizards, and Sorcerers have a caster level equal to their class level. Mana: Mana is used to power special abilities and cast spells. The cost of a special ability depends on the ability. Spells generally cost an amount of mana equal to their spell level. (Though perhaps this can be modified some of a caster's spells with magical items and/or feats). Mana Pool: All characters have a Mana Pool. For most, this is equal to their character level. Bard, Paladin, and Ranger levels give 2 Mana for each class level. Sorcerers, Wizards, and Clerics gain 3 Mana for each class level. All casters have their Mana Pool increased by their Casting Ability Modifier. A Character's Mana Pool does not replenish while a character is active. As with regaining spell slots in standard D&D, a character must rest for 8 hours to replenish his Mana Pool. The following chart details this. Class Max Base Mana Pool By Class and Level Level Fighter/Rogue/Monk Bard/Paladin/Ranger Wizard/Sorceror/Druid/Cleric 1 2 2 2 2 4 4 4 3 6 6 7 4 8 8 10 5 10 11 14 6 12 14 18 7 14 17 23 8 16 20 28 9 18 24 34 10 20 28 40 11 22 32 47 12 24 36 54 13 26 41 62 14 28 46 70 15 30 51 79 16 32 56 88 17 34 62 98 18 36 68 108 19 38 74 119 20 40 80 130 (Note: These numbers might need some adjusting) For instance, Karzox the level 6 Wizard has a full Mana Pool, which is 21 Mana (3*6 for his level, and 3 more for his intelligence of 16). Karzox has no Available Mana at the moment, and wants to cast Magic Missile on an oncoming goblin. So Karzox spends a move action to gather 1 Mana, which lowers his Mana Pool down to 20 Mana, then he spends a standard action to cast Magic Missile (killing the goblin). Karzox now has 20 Dormant Mana to use for the rest of the day. Later after casting 1 fireball, 1 slow, 3 magic missiles, mage armor, and some other spells, Karzox is down to a Mana Pool of 4. Luckily he thinks he is safe so he decides to rest. After resting successfully for 8 hours, Karzox is back to a full Mana Pool of 21. Available and Dormant Mana: Mana is generally not immediately available to a character. It represents a deep well of internal strength that takes time to bring forth. Mana that can be immediately used is called "Available Mana." Mana in a Character's Mana Pool is called "Dormant Mana", and is not available for immediate use. Normally "Dormant Mana" can simply be discussed as Mana in the Mana Pool. A character's Mana Pool represents how much Dormant Mana he has out of his total possible Dormant Mana. A character cannot have more Available Mana this his caster level / 2, rounded up. Making Mana Available: A character can focus and spend time to turn Dormant Mana into Available Mana. This is called "Gathering Mana." When a character gathers an amount of mana, that amount is subtracted from his Dormant Mana and added to his Available Mana. Spending a Move Action gathers Caster Level / 4 Mana, rounded down. Minimum 1. Spending a Standard Action gathers Caster Level / 4 Mana, rounded up. Spending a Full-Round Action gathers Caster Level / 2 Mana, rounded up. Minimum 2 (after 2nd level -- since you can't have more Available Mana then your Caster Level / 2, rounded up). The following table shows the amount of Mana that can be gathered for a given caster level. Caster Amount of Mana Gather by spending a.... Level Move Action Standard Action Full Round Action 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 2 3 1 1 2 4 1 1 2 5 1 2 3 6 1 2 3 7 1 2 4 8 2 2 4 9 2 3 5 10 2 3 5 11 2 3 6 12 3 3 6 13 3 4 7 14 3 4 7 15 3 4 8 16 4 4 8 17 4 5 9 18 4 5 9 19 4 5 10 20 5 5 10 Magic Burn: Mana cannot be kept available indefinitely. Over a period of one hour, you can keep some Mana Available that you do not spend for no more than your Caster Level + Charisma Modifier in minutes. Mana that you make available and then spend does not count towards this limit. If you exceed this limit, then all Mana you have available immediately becomes Dormant, and you take an amount of non-lethal damage equal to this amount. Additionally, you cannot Gather Mana again for one hour. Sorcerors and other spontaneous casters keeping an amount of Mana available equal to 1/3 of their Caster Level or less (rounded up) can ignore Magic Burn. (The above is meant to prevent people from keeping mana available all the time, but is put into a time-frame so that it shouldn't affect anyone who isn't trying to abuse the system -- it may be unnecessary though. It is also used to help distinguish Sorcerers from Wizards). Releasing Mana: At any time as a free action, Available Mana can be returned to the Mana Pool. However, you cannot have more mana in your Mana Pool than your normal limit. Feat Thoughts and Reserve Feats I think reserve feats are important for a system like this. Either have them require an amount of Dormant Mana equal to the spell level, or an amount of available mana equal to the spell level. Probably given Reserve Feats in terms of extra bonus feats is a good idea, and perhaps some more powerful reserve feats that require other reserve feats. Obviously the ability to use a reserve feat while gathering mana is important. For other classes, such as non-casters in particular, I think you can easily give them abilities that allow them to use their Mana for some impressive non-magical effects. I have a few feat ideas below, but obviously some broader and more interesting ideas are needed. (Of course, feats that basically duplicating some of the psionic feats that require a focus can also be relatively painlessly converted). New Feats (Some feats that demonstrate some of the ways to use the above system): Combat Gathering You can Gather Mana even while you attack your enemies. Prerequisite: Caster Level 4 Benefits: In a turn where you make a standard attack, you can also spend a move action to Gather Mana as if you were spending a standard action on gathering. Normal: You cannot make two standard actions of any sort in one round. Militant Gathering [Fighter] When you strike well, you natural strength comes to the surface. Prerequesite: Base Attack Bonus +8 Benefits: When roll an 19 or 20 on an attack roll and hit, you can choose to gather 1 Mana. Terrible Swift Sword [Fighter] Your focus on physical prowess in exclusion of mystical concerns is not without its own rewards. Prerequisite: Base Attack Bonus +12 Benefits: You can spend an amount of available Mana up to half your Base Attack Bonus. For one round you gain this bonus to attack and damage rolls. Special: You cannot learn or use this feat if you can cast spells. (note: this should probably have some other prerequisites). (additional note: I'd like some ideas on non-attack/damage bonus and non-temporary hitpoints feats for fighters and rogues-- though obviously a feat for Rogues could give them the ability to sneak attack anything if they spend mana). (I'll add more feats in time) Additional Thoughts: The Mana/Level might be too low. This could either be increased or feats and magical items could be made that reduce the casting cost of spells. If the latter is used, then the Mana Gathering table should be adjusted. Additionally, though related to the previous thought, Wizards and Sorcerers might still be too weak, or Clerics/Druids too strong. One solution is to rewrite these classes. For wizards and sorcerers you could give them both access to simple weapons (I know sorcs already have this), a d6 hit die, and medium BAB. Clerics would lose their ability to cast spells in medium and heavy armor and their related proficiencies thereof (Paladins would need some work too here). Add and remove some special abilities should fix things up there. Of course, for myself I have a bit more of an ambitious plan. I'd like to axe the current spellcasting classes (the Paladin, Ranger, and Bard would be reworked). Wizards, Druids, Clerics, and Sorcerers would be combined into one class (though you could make two different classes if you insist on an arcane/divine spellcasting divide). This class would choose its spellcasting ability (wisdom or intelligence). This choice might govern wether it got one special ability or another. It would get access to a limited number of "spheres" of magic, though more would be learned through feats or just increasing in level. Spells would be learned wizard-style, though no spellbook would be needed. A magic sphere would be more specific than a school, but general cover a few spells for each level (e.g. an Earth Sphere would grant access to any spell or version of a spell with the [Earth] descriptor). There would probably be 20 or more spheres altogether, and there'd be some overlap in spells between them (for instance, a Summoning Sphere and the Earth Sphere would share Summon Nature's Ally [Earth] spells). I've already started working on spheres...I think I'd have access start with 4 spheres, so a self-styled Elementalist could choose Earth, Air, Fire, and Water at first level. Each mage would then be a lot more unique in what he could do, and I think generally it would be more interesting and fun to play. Well, that's all I have at the moment. I'm still working on the list of spells by Sphere, that will take some time to do, but when I've got it complete I'll post it here, as well as the alternate classes that go with it. -Drachasor PS. I used Mana Cost = Spell Level since I think adding and subtracting by numbers greater than 10 may take up too much time and effort for some players. I never liked the spellpoint systems for this reason. Edit: Added minimums for mana gathering. Added Releasing Mana.
Drachasor 11-04-06, 11:29 PM	Here's an example of the system at work: Largely the timing is an issue of a round or half-round. Obviously a Caster would prefer to do something every round, so that encourages the casting of lower level spells. The Move Action Mana Gathering rate is 1/4 Caster Level / 4, round down. The average caster has access to spells of a level equal to Caster Level/2, round up. That means that the first half of a caster's spell levels, rounded down, can be cost once per round. E.G. a 9th level Wizard could cast 1st and 2nd level spells once per round (5/2, round down). Since from the Move Action he is Gathering 2 Mana from his Mana Pool. At 11th level he could cast 1st-3rd level spells once per round. (I'm assuming spells that are a standard action to cast). Of course, with the 9th level example, the Wizard could gather 2 Mana the first round, cast a 1st level spell, then gather 2 more points the second round and cast a 3rd level spell. That's because he has 1 available Mana from the previous round leftover. (as far as magic burn is concerned, btw, 1-round carry-overs are insignificant compared to the limitation of minutes). If he knew he was going to need magic, he could have potentially started the combat with 5 Available Mana. Round 1: 5th level spell, gather 2 Mana (5-5+2 for 2 available mana at the end of the round). Round 2: gather 2 Mana, cast a 4th level spell (0 available Mana at the end of the round). Or he could cast a bunch of third level spells: Round 1: 3rd level spell, gather 2. 5-3+2=4 am (available mana) Round 2: 3rd level spell, gather 2. 3 am Round 3: 3rd level spell, gather 2. 2 am Round 4: gather 2, 3rd level spell. 1 am Round 5: gather 2, 3rd level spell. 0 am
Drachasor 11-04-06, 11:39 PM	Space Reserved for spells listed by sphere and alternate magic classes. --Side-Note, with the above system I do think upping the Wizard/Sorc BAB progression to medium, and their hit dice to d6 -- this requires some minor adjustments to some prestige classes on a case-by-case basis. All casters should probably cast spells more or less spontaneously, with wizards needing to prepare spells from their list to be able to spontaneously cast them. The problem here is that it makes the Sorc weak...but the Sorc needs some sort of fix anyhow (beyond the aforementioned ability to maintain available mana). It might not be bad idea to reduce the armor clerics can wear to light, or medium and light. Druids are a bit more tricky to fix, given their wildshape ability -- I welcome thoughts on that. -Drachasor Edit: Comment on spontaneous casting.
Soulsong 11-05-06, 11:02 PM	I like what you are doing here. In general, I like the approach, but it seems a bit complex. I will review it some more (in case I am just being too resistant to this specific change - even though I find the vancian mechanic long past its usefulness), but I think it needs to be simplified somehow. A counterpoint to this is that mana management is really probably not much more bookkeeping than filling and tracking used spell-slots. Most of this probably gets back to confidence/trust that fellow players know how to use and actually do use the system appropriately. Perhaps it is my inherent dislike of tables? Might there be some calculated value in place of a table, ie 2xlev, 4xlev, 6xlev, or something similar? I know this adds complexity (which I just said I was against above), but maybe this could be combined with a casting check with penalties above a certain caster level. This way, even though casters get larger mana pools at lower levels, they would still be limited in the spells they could cast. Perhaps failing casting checks results in loosing more than the standard mana? good ideas at any rate.
Drachasor 11-06-06, 12:30 PM	A better system for a computer, I think. At least that's my decision now. Anyone is free to use any of my ideas here, but as far as the Mana Gathering idea goes, I am not going to develop it further. I've just gotten access to the Tome of Battle, and I've been looking over it a lot. I think basing a magic system off of the mechanics for maneuvers in there has a lot of promise. Ideally it shouldn't require too much work (though for aesthetic and "realism" reasons I'm going to keep the idea of having spell points/mana/whatever and my above cost/spell level system).* As for my idea for seperating out schools and such into smaller "Spheres", I will continue with that after I've worked on my above project. I think the Tome of Battle System has a lot of promise. I'll post my development on this in another thread later today. -Drachasor *So Spellcasters would still have a daily limit, as well as a limitation on how they can act in an encounter.
Pellanor 11-09-06, 07:01 PM	Magic Burn: Mana cannot be kept available indefinitely. Over a period of one hour, you can keep some Mana Available that you do not spend for no more than your Caster Level + Charisma Modifier in minutes. Mana that you make available and then spend does not count towards this limit. If you exceed this limit, then all Mana you have available immediately becomes Dormant, and you take an amount of non-lethal damage equal to this amount. Additionally, you cannot Gather Mana again for one hour. Fear my 1st level Gnomish Wizard and his 7 Charisma! Mana burn after -1 minutes!:dancin: