Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bhairavi 04-28-06, 11:36 PM	Charisma is the red-haired stepchild of attributes. Beyond being used for social rolls, which many PCs don't make often (only the party spokesperson) and as the main attribute for certain classes, Charisma doesn't do much. Its usually skimped on by players, and is seriously disrespected by WoTC as the least important attribute. Charisma deserves more respect! It should be an attribute equal with the others! Free Charisma! Or something like that anyway . . . So I'm putting this out there . . . does anyone have any ideas for making Charisma more significant in game play? I'm looking for house rules, DM techniques, etc. Help bring equality to second-class attributes! :cheer:
JulesCARV 04-28-06, 11:41 PM	I don't know about that. In my party, four of our five characters are charismatic types -- me, the paladin/bard, a favored soul, an artificer, and a warmage. The only uncharismatic one is our ninja (who, paradoxically, often acted as our party leader). There is a cliché of D&D characters with 8 charisma (whose character sheets describe them as very handsome, friendly, and articulate in spite of this), but I think that it might not be true anymore.
Bhairavi 04-28-06, 11:46 PM	Every other attribute has a use for any character: Strength determines how much weight you can carry and how much damage you can do, Dex effects AC and Reflex saves, Con effects hit points and Fortitude saves, Int effects skill points, Wis effects Will saves. Plus, all of the above are base attributes for basic survival skills. It may be true that people don't have 8 Charisma as often as they used to. But if they don't have it as a key attribute for their class, and don't talk much, it has little effect on their character. All the other attributes involve a real choice or sacrifice in placing one's lowest score there. The default, in my experience, is for players who are not playing CHA based classes, is to dump their lowest roll in Cha. What I'm looking for is a way to make the choice to have a low Cha an equal trade off with having another attribute be low.
JulesCARV 04-28-06, 11:50 PM	Oookay... how 'bout this: Initiative is determined by wisdom. Will saves are determined by charisma Dexterity gets a bit of a nerf.
Bhairavi 04-29-06, 12:25 AM	That's a possibility, I've seen that house rule before. I'm not sure about the wisdom determining initiative . . . it seems a little contrived.
JulesCARV 04-29-06, 12:31 AM	They're based on the feats "Yondalla's Sense" and "Force of Personality." Initiative is how fast you react to something. How fast you react to something is determined by how fast you notice it. The only problem is that it implies that venerable people have better initiative than young people, but that's not a bigger problem than the fact that venerable people have better listen and spot checks.
AT-AT Assault 04-29-06, 12:33 AM	That's a possibility, I've seen that house rule before. I'm not sure about the wisdom determining initiative . . . it seems a little contrived.One could argue that Intitiaitve is determined by intuition and not nimbleness.
wi1dfire_b1ue 04-29-06, 01:20 AM	I have been tempted a time or two to make Charisma the determining stat for all spellcasters DC's. Bonus spells and ability to cast spells of a certain level would still be determined as normal (a wizard would still need high intelligence, a cleric wisdom, etc.), but each spell's save DC would be modified by their charisma score, no matter what kind of caster it is. As far as I see, there would be two major effects in terms of game balance with this: Wizards would get seriously hurt (and a new stereotype for the scholars of mages would need to be created), and the relative power of Bards and Sorcerers would rise compared to the Wizard especially and all casters generally, since they wouldn't have the spellcasting stat split. I came up with that particular Pandora's Box when I saw a variant for gender stats, where males got +1 to strength, and females got a +1 to charisma. I decided that if I wanted to use that, and maintain the generally gender equal society of DnD, I needed to make sure females had reserves of power that males weren't as capable of accessing: magic. I have never actually used either variant, but as I said, I've been tempted.
deathbane 04-29-06, 03:13 AM	Most DM's make thjeir players roleplay as opposed to rollplay. I think if Charisma were a factor regardless of how well you negoiated, or said not so nice things it would get more attention. Even in real life certain people can do or say certain things that other people could never get away with. Some people are always likeable and some people no matter how nice they are, dont have a lot of friends. I think if DM gave you a score depending on your performance(for lack of a better word) to presuade an NPC then add your CHA modifier, whether it be positive or negative, then it would have more aof an impact. You may be in a foreign land and accidently insult a noble, but due to your CHA modifier they might just throw you in jail for a few days instead of calling the guards to kill you.
RaspK FOG 04-29-06, 03:32 AM	First of all, most people forget that D&D is a role playing game; this means that you play a role, but that does not mean you are an actor, for heaven's sake! I hate how people cannot understand the need for the Golden Mean more than anything in this case: present your case, which will affect your chances of success dramatically (people forget there are modifiers on Bluff checks for both likelihood and wanting to believe you [which illustrates how some spouses will believe anything their mates will tell them]) and then you roll against your opponent's Sense Motive check, a skill most people do not invest many points in. That's how it's meant to work (it's the RAW, even). This way, Charisma is a very important stat; also, in regard to spellcasting, The Wheel of Time d20 RPG uses Charisma along with either Intelligence or Wisdom to determine the number of bonus weaves (i.e. spells) you get.
Bhairavi 04-29-06, 01:50 PM	I'm aware of the RP importance of Charisma, and don't deny it. Likewise, I'm well aware of its value to spellcasters. What I'm looking for, though its a game mechanic balence that effects all characters regardless of class. Lets face it, you're a fighter, and you have a natural 8. Where are you going to put it? Charisma. Why? Because you won't put it in a physical, Int will hurt your skils, and Wis will hurt your will save. What I'm trying to do is make that less of a forgone conclusion, so Mr. Fighter thinks . . .hmmm . . if I put it in Wis I lose my will save and spot checks, but it in Int I lose my skills . . . but, Damn, if I put it in Charisma my . . . . (blank) sucks . .and (blank) should not read 'social skills' because frankly, in most parties, Mr. Fighter ain't doing the talking. People's suggestions have been very thoughtful, but I'm really looking for a mechanic solution . . either a switch out of stats used for a mechanic, or a new mechanic goody that players would want and use. Thanks!
AT-AT Assault 04-29-06, 02:13 PM	I just got an awesome idea. Beauty is pretty much universal right(a very beautiful women in RL is likely to be very beautiful even in an ethnic/cultural/whatever opposed context)? And CHA most represents Beauty. So have the monsters prefer to attack the lest beautiful(ie least CHA) if possible. So with that it seems like the ugly fighter gets picked on the most.
Need_A_Life 04-29-06, 02:23 PM	Charisma is the strongest stat out there! No one is saying: "Let's give the cleric wildshape and better spells, he's so weak," why do it with Charisma? Seriously, in our group we enjoy getting charisma to saves to compliment charisma-based spellcasting, innate spell-like/supernatural abilities as well as making some good untrained perform checks. Compare Charisma to Intelligence Charisma governs... Certain (most) types of spellcasting Certain (most) types of special abilities Turning/Rebuking Skills (Marshall Minor Aura ability) Intelligence governs... Certain types of spellcasting Skill points Skills What'd I miss that makes charisma any less powerful than the other mental stats? When did physical stats become even remotely as powerful as mental stats? A PC can do decently with a 1 in str/dex/con with some adaption, a PC with a 1 in int/wis/cha is going to be disasterous if they roleplay their mental scores.
Bikermattus 04-29-06, 02:30 PM	This is what Finesse feats are for. Handing off a mechanic detail (such as Will or Init) off to a weaker attribute. Justification? see below: Tactical Finesse: Ever wonder why, in the movies/books/anime/etc. the clumsy, yet charming heroes manage to land the first important hit when fighting even the most agile of enemies? These natural leaders are using their own charismatic talent to maneuver themselves into a better situation. (And it helps that they are therefore initially underestimated.) Example: Usagi Tsukino (Sailor Moon). Personal force of Will: Many a foolish hero has faced against a powerful mental power, yet essentially shrugged it off, sometimes with nothing but pure ego. Example: Ranma Saotome (Ranma 1/2) Zen Reflex/Zen Response: Those who are apporopriate to choose these are not the most accurate, or the best at dodging, but they almost seem to see intuitively (I.E. With Wisdom) what will happen before they would normally have a chance to react. (No example off the top of my head, but I'm sure many can easily come up with a number of instances) All of these are Finesse-style feats that make a surprising punch for your "weak" character, to the point of having a potentially devestating fighter that chose to place the weakest abilities rolled in the physical slots.
Kursk 04-29-06, 08:54 PM	Let's see; Sorc, Cleric & Bard, Critically important. That's 3 right there. For a Cleric in a game where undead are at least uncommon Char is a must. There are enough skills based around it. DM who is into RPing (D&D is an RP game) shouldn't have a problem with enough players needing it.
deathbane 04-29-06, 09:03 PM	The thing with Charisma is that most of the time only one person in the party needs to have it. That person is normally the spellcaster, who also as a result serves as the figurehead(which does not have to mean leader) of the party.
Fuzzy_Logic 04-30-06, 01:46 AM	I just got an awesome idea. Beauty is pretty much universal right(a very beautiful women in RL is likely to be very beautiful even in an ethnic/cultural/whatever opposed context)? And CHA most represents Beauty. So have the monsters prefer to attack the lest beautiful(ie least CHA) if possible. So with that it seems like the ugly fighter gets picked on the most. A: Charisma is not beauty. B: beauty is NOT universal. look at what's been considered beatiful in different tiems and cultures, and you'll fidn that many of them are not attractive to the modern american eye. C: why would monsters necessarily attack ugly enemies first? D: charisma, like strength, is relevant only for certain characters. who cares? it still has quite a role in the game.
Eltharon 04-30-06, 10:31 PM	You could borrow off of GURPS and use a sort of "Reaction Roll". Roll a D20 and add your charisma to determine the attitude of a NPC whose attitude is not yet known. Make a table to determine the attitude depending one what you roll. Thats a good idea :thinks: I think ill go write one now.
Waterhammer 05-01-06, 12:57 AM	Average Str and Con to get the Fortitude save score. Int and Dex for the Reflex save. Wis and Cha for Will saves. Of course this idea adds lots of math to the game, and seems to power up the wizard a bit while weakening the cleric slightly. It would slightly increase the importance of Cha however. May not be a good idea, but it is an idea. :rolleyes:
locksley92 05-01-06, 04:54 AM	Umm, HELLO? When, I read the name of this thread I was shocked. Frankly, I was shocked. Charisma is one of the most important attributes in DnD. Unless you are a beginner DM or a slacker, many encounters should have at least one time for usage of a charisma skill: or at least interaction. Like RaspK said: it is role-playing. Unless you are a power-gaming rollplayer, you should have tons of chances to use the charisma skill. In my opinion, Charisma is the treacherous half-brother of the other skills. :P! Charisma, USE IT!
MadApplejack 05-01-06, 04:19 PM	I use what I call "non-combat initiative" to determine order of actions outside of fighting. It's based on Charisma. Basically, once I describe a scene, I used to have either everyone start shouting, "I do this, oh, and that, and I cast this spell..." or everyone sitting quietly waiting to see what someone else is going to do. Now, I look to the PC with the highest Charisma to start things off. Since he's the one who's supposedly the most decisive and confident, that's how I figure it should go. The gruff, low-Cha types have to wait to see what everyone else has decided to do, and then decide whether or not to follow their lead.
StormKnight 05-02-06, 02:28 PM	Umm, HELLO? When, I read the name of this thread I was shocked. Frankly, I was shocked. Charisma is one of the most important attributes in DnD. Unless you are a beginner DM or a slacker, many encounters should have at least one time for usage of a charisma skill: or at least interaction. Like RaspK said: it is role-playing. Unless you are a power-gaming rollplayer, you should have tons of chances to use the charisma skill. In my opinion, Charisma is the treacherous half-brother of the other skills. :P! Charisma, USE IT! First: Roleplaying vs. wargaming (or rollplaying or whatever you want to call it) should make little or no difference to the usefulness of CHA. A group of wargame attitude players can happily use the mechanical benefits of diplomacy, bluff, etc. without ever needing to roleplay their character at all. A group of intense, deep ROLEplaying buffs could happily go sessions without making a CHA check simply because it never seemed appropriate for their character to do so. Secondly Charisma is a stat, not a skill. However, virtually all of its uses are covered by skills. A player who is not a CHA-using class wanting a mechanical advantage with social skills could instead put a high score in INT and use the extra skill points to boost all the social skills to the same point. Thirdly, D&D is inherently designed around adventure, exploration and combat. While characters may find frequent opportunities to use social skills, stats such as DEX and STR are useful in EVERY combat. If you are playing a game with little to no combat, that's great for you but its not what D&D was designed for. Sure, CHA boosts useful skills. But INT and WIS (In your low combat game, appropriate knowledge skills should probably be as useful as social skills!) boost useful skills AND give you extra benefits. That is why CHA is underpowered. -------------------------- Ok, back to the actual topic... The RPG Runequest had an interesting idea in that CHA added to a whole lot of secondary abilities; the idea was that higher CHA carried greater favor with the gods and so helped you chances of success in many ways. Probably a bit too drastic a change though. In my campaign, I use "Drama Points" (stolen from games like 7th Sea and Buff the Vampire Slayer) that let players add to their rolls or twist fate a little. So to balance out CHA, you get extra Drama Points equal to your CHA bonus.
Boshi 05-02-06, 11:31 PM	And the other thing is that except at extreme low levels, a character with high Int will often do better at Cha-based skills than a character with high Cha, since the one with high Int would have more skill points to sink into them. For example, one of my paladin characters was dumb enough that I didn't even have enough skill points to max out my diplomacy, never mind intimidate and bluff... So Cha isn't always even necessarily the best at social skills...
Reversefigure4 05-04-06, 11:35 PM	They're based on the feats "Yondalla's Sense" and "Force of Personality." Initiative is how fast you react to something. How fast you react to something is determined by how fast you notice it. How fast you notice it is determined by Spot checks, etc (WIS based skills), and if you fail to notice it, that's when Surprise Rounds come in. Initiative itself is purely how fast your physical reaction is - in that 6 second frame of a round, when everyone pulls out their weapons, charges, casts their spells, etc, which one of them is doing it the quickest and so lands their hit first? -- I find the same point as Boise made my biggest issue with CHA - a character with high INT can dump a lot more skill points into the social skills than a high CHA character, actually making the INT char better.
The_Newborn 05-05-06, 04:07 AM	The reason why, in some circles, charisma is week, is when there is a party spokesperson. For the most part thats okay. But there are always situations where there is not always a spokesperson. Aside from physical barriers there is also the language barrier. And if some one wants to add something to the converstation let them roll. A failure provides a penality on an assist roll. I also think that deathbanes point about role-playing vs roll-playing was missed entirely. Roleplaying is refering to having a background and staying in character. roll-playing is the use of dice as an expression of chance (success v failure). It is NOT the same as powergaming, min-maxing and munchkin-ing. What Death was saying was that when the player describes what their character says he/she is merely giving an out line of what is being said so that the DM can determin the conditional modifiers of the encounter. This can be a penalty. So as DMs pay attention to what they say. It also provides an oppertunity for NPCs to react badly to un-charasmatic NPCs. Note that silence isn't always a good choice (could be seen as defiance or implied guilt). It's also good for the smart people who play uncharismatic thugs that like to but into a role-playing encounter with their ideas and opinions. If you use it enough charism might get some more use and players will be a moer civil (if that is a problem). The non-combat inititive is also an interesting idea. so is adding cha to DCs not the other stats, though I'd swap on in as the main stat for sorcerers as it comes from interior wells of power. but thats just as easily represented by cha. Lol at charisma representing beauty. that is a marginal aspect. It is force of personality. Sure beutiful people tend to have high charisma. They know they're the **** and they use it. Beautiful people can be uncharismatic. They think they are ugly and withdraw from the world or they are gruff->cold hearted treating others like crap. plenty of ways to have one but not the other.
gabrion 05-05-06, 09:35 AM	Ok, I have to add my voice to anyone who was shocked by the title of this thread. Not only can high CHA social builds be absolutely game-breaking (turning enemies to friends with a simple diplomacy check), but CHA is the most popular synergy stat out there! You can add it to AC, saves, AC, hit points, initiative, AC, attacks, damage, saves (oh, did I say AC and saves already?) enough to make a character that is pretty much just dependent on that one ability score. Sure it's a dump stat for some builds, but it also has the potential to be super powerful if you know where to look.
Whim 05-05-06, 01:02 PM	Charisma is only underused because DMs rarely create a setting that calls for charisma as a needed stat. Most things in most scenarios can be delt with much more practically with brute force, intelligence, or magic. Charisma is fine the way it is, for the most part. If a DM made a scenario that was mostly just a lot of talking and diplomacy, then strength and dexterity--and possibly even constitution--would be practically useless stats as well. It all depends on how the DM sets up the campaign.
ArcTan 05-05-06, 03:30 PM	Take the idea that Cha is the stat associated with UMD -- which all by itself adds a supernatural gloss to Charisma, and makes it far more than just being a friendly social character and makes it some kind of supernatural power over magic -- and extend that a bit. Maybe allow Cha to substitute for the modifier to saves against magic spells but not mundane events (i.e. Cha modifies Reflex saves against the _fireball_ spell but not a spear trap). Something like that -- someone whose sheer power of presence negates magical forces directed against them.
Whim 05-05-06, 03:38 PM	Take the idea that Cha is the stat associated with UMD -- which all by itself adds a supernatural gloss to Charisma, and makes it far more than just being a friendly social character and makes it some kind of supernatural power over magic -- and extend that a bit. Maybe allow Cha to substitute for the modifier to saves against magic spells but not mundane events (i.e. Cha modifies Reflex saves against the _fireball_ spell but not a spear trap). Something like that -- someone whose sheer power of presence negates magical forces directed against them. Sorry, I see what you're getting at, but that makes no sense. Being pretty doesn't stop magic...hehe. If you were to do something like that, I would call charisma something else. And maybe charisma really does need to be replaced with something more appropriate.
Arem_K 05-05-06, 09:18 PM	Oookay... how 'bout this: Initiative is determined by wisdom. Will saves are determined by charisma Dexterity gets a bit of a nerf. Bad idea. Clerics and druids are plenty powerful without being hands down the fastest thing in the game. Plus Dex fighters are weak enough as is. My favorite solution to the charisma as a dump stat phenomenon is to make them roleplay it. Ask them if they have seen Office Space. If they say yes, explain they are basically Milton(the guys who always stutters) with that charisma score.
Shatteredtower 05-05-06, 11:59 PM	The thing with Charisma is that most of the time only one person in the party needs to have it.I'm not so sure about that. In the short term, possibly, but in the long term, I can see how it could work against you. Here, let me give you an example: Let's say your party face is a rogue and that no one else in the group has a Charisma higher than 8. People readily take to the rogue, a great guy, but his companions? Not so much. When the invitations go out to attend major social events, the party is only going to get one for guess-who, with "and guest" on the invitation if they're lucky. Most of the time, that's no big deal, but when it's a chance to get close to the other movers and shakers in society, you can't always pass them up. Even if they're handled quickly, as they should be, with a small number of rolls and concise description, the team should realize that they are getting left out of something. It shouldn't mean any more than the way the wizard's low Strength tends to get left out when it's all about banging swords together, but it deserves to be recognized as an issue. Most of the time, people are aware enough of that by the fact that only one guy tends to speak for the group. But let's consider it from another point of view. People like your rogue. They want to help him. They want to see him do well. They... don't want to see him stuck with a bunch of hangers on that they see as holding him back. You see where I'm going with this? It doesn't matter that those hangers on are capable of shattering worlds with a fist or destroying half the solar system with a single word... in the eyes of many, they're still going to be losers. Dangerous losers, powerful losers, but still entirely the wrong sort of people to associate with someone who could be going places. Now your face is always free to assure people that he is perfectly happy with his travelling companions, but it's funny how other people have plans for you. Some of them are going to do everything they can to fit you in with a better group. Your teammates are going to be challenged constantly to prove their worthiness, and no evidence they offer of it is likely to come across as enough. Gossip, smear campaigns, blackmail and extortion, humiliating pranks, bribes, and possibly even assassination are the tools that people might use to break up the team. This can be of particular concern when alignments are a factor: the BBEG might feel that the rogue would make a great ally or servant, if he could just escape the bad moral influence of his adventuring buddies. Now if you're a more personable group that cleans up more nicely, you're less likely to run into this sort of problem. People are more likely to be satisfied if they feel your buddies measure up. Another factor, though it's less likely to be an issue for some groups, involves captives. If the entire group is taken prisoner, the face is the one least likely to wind up on the sacrificial altar or in the stewpot. He's often the one most likely to be ransomed back to your allies, as well as the one that your allies are most likely to meet the ransom demands for. (I'm sorry, but if you're not well-liked, it may not matter how many tens of thousands of enemies you've slain in defense of the king. It's possible, but less certain, especially if the rumour mill has been particularly nasty about your personal habits.) Admittedly, the issue here might be that ranks in Diplomacy and Bluff quickly surpass the benefits offered by a high Charisma score. A 1st level rogue with 10 Cha and 4 ranks in Diplomacy fares as well socially as a 1st level sorcerer with 18 Cha and no ranks in the skill. It would also be more significant if the Influencing NPC Attitudes table was adjusted slightly, changing every DC or 1 to 5 and of "Less than 1" to "Less than 5." There should be some chance of indifferent folk becoming unfriendly to the average joe getting off on the wrong foot despite his best efforts. Nevertheless, even an indifferent reaction doesn't always bode well. Sometimes, the socially expected interaction is ostracization. Don't underestimate how ruthless the psychophants* can be in trying to achieve that result. * intentional misspelling