Making level 1-2 combat less like Russian Roulette. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Making level 1-2 combat less like Russian Roulette. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sunic_Flames
08-27-07, 09:04 AM The way things are now, all it takes is one random hit to drop most characters (and a random crit to kill them outright). Dying because you screwed up is one thing. Dying because the enemy rolled a 12 followed by a 6 to take you down then finished you off, not so much.

I don't like this, so I'm changing it. I came up with three ways of doing it:

1: Bonus HP based on size. 10 for Medium, +/- 2 each size larger or smaller, applies once. Someone else first posted this, I think it was in the minor tweak thread. The main drawback though is it further shortchanges any small sized characters the players may wish to play.

2: Bonus HP based on first HD. Double that HD, or perhaps even triple it. Maybe even modify the con bonus by a similar amount.

3: Bonus HP equal to con score (not modifier).

Kinda leaning towards the last one because smaller doesn't necessarily less durable. See: cockroaches, any small race with a con bonus, any medium race with a con penalty. The second one kinda works but leans itself a bit too much towards taking something with a large HD for the first level. Especially if you were gonna do it anyways, but later.

The downside to all these is if applied to the PCs and not the enemies, it's effectively the same as just starting them at level 3, but much slower. Which defeats the point of what I'm doing. But if applied across the board, many things that were previously useful now aren't, and things that were on the fence crossed the line into non usefulness. After all, a fireball isn't gonna do much to a crowd of 20 HP hobgoblin warrior 1s, but it would against 6 HP ones.

Ideas/thoughts/feedback?
DM Zoc
08-27-07, 09:53 AM Use more swords and less axes for enemies. If your enemies are out-of-the-book kobolds and goblins, or average-strength humans, it is impossible to kill a PC in one shot without a critical hit (and a critical hit can only kill a small hit die class if the PC has low Con). The only real danger is when your enemies use x3 or x4 crit weapons, so just make an effort to not have those weapons show up before level 3.

Simple solutions are always best. When going from second to third edition, they made level 1 survivable by mandating maximum hit points at first level, and the -10 hit point buffer. Consider extending this benefit to second level and doubling the threshold of death's door.

If you change the rules regarding how hit points are generated, then you have to either use different rules for the PCs compared to NPCs, or you'll just end up prolonging combat; those goblins won't go down nearly so quickly, so the chance of them getting a lucky crit against the PCs increases significantly.
The_Levitator
08-27-07, 12:52 PM One thing that always helps me as a DM is to create interesting and complex encounters. My players hate toe-to-toe slugfests, so I put a lot of work into the environment, obstacles, terrain, vision, back doors, etc. If you make a detailed encounter that gives the party multiple tactical options, they can tip the odds in their favor and try to minimize their risk. I love it when players do interesting things and interact with their surroundings to take out their foe. I recently had a party grab a nearby oxcart to break up a group of orogs who had taken defensive positions behind some rocks. They used the cart as a big shield, and as a distraction. The tanks pushed the cart up the road drawing fire while the rogue and monk flanked the orogs with missle fire. Once the orogs turned to deal with the arrows and bolts, the tanks charged from behind the cart. A 2nd level party of 4 took out 6 orogs by being careful and tactical. What was really cool about the encounter is that nobody in the party took a single scratch. Sure, it helped that 2 of the orogs were dropped by critical crossbow strikes before the tanks even got into the fray, but it was still a really fun encounter and the players were very proud of themselves for not taking any damage during the fight. The party used cover and tactics and didn't go toe-to-toe with the orogs until they basically had them down to half strength.

It's more work as a DM to come up with creative encounters, but it's not a lot more work. For me, it's simply a matter of filling in the details. I try to picture the scene and think of all of the things that the characters might be able to use to gain an advantage. Big empty rooms with monsters in them are just not fun for my players. They want pillars, pools, fog, rubble, statues and rotten tomatoes. Anything that they can be creative with is a good thing.

I know that for our group, they prefer a gritty world where they CAN die from a single strike. They don't like the "videogamey" (in their words) feel of getting knocked around and hit 30 times before feeling any effects of combat. But then, we play a highly modified version of 3.5 that is tailored to the group playing it. If you don't like to houserule and want to keep everything Core, just adding details and things like obstacles, vision impairments, rough terrain and such and you will give your players more options in combat. I like to make huge encounter maps so that the party can find ways to flank or even avoid a fight if they choose. I use a VT though, so that is a little easier to do than using battlemats and mini's as space is limited.

The game is all about the players playing heroes, so I try to make sure that they either get to shine, or get their butts out of danger to live to fight another day.
Sunic_Flames
08-27-07, 01:21 PM Use more swords and less axes for enemies. If your enemies are out-of-the-book kobolds and goblins, or average-strength humans, it is impossible to kill a PC in one shot without a critical hit (and a critical hit can only kill a small hit die class if the PC has low Con). The only real danger is when your enemies use x3 or x4 crit weapons, so just make an effort to not have those weapons show up before level 3.

I was more refering to enemies like this:

Hobgoblin, 1st-Level Warrior:

Attack: Longsword +3* melee (1d8+1/19-20) or javelin +2 ranged (1d6+1)

D4 class = 5-6 HP
D6 class = 7-8 HP
D8 class = 9-10 HP
D10 class = 11-12 HP
D12 class = 13-14 HP

* - Yes, I know the default is +2. But as they have Alertness and it is not necessary for their functioning, I undid the anti optimization by making it weapon focus instead. It makes little difference either way though.

Simple solutions are always best. When going from second to third edition, they made level 1 survivable by mandating maximum hit points at first level, and the -10 hit point buffer. Consider extending this benefit to second level and doubling the threshold of death's door.

That is a good idea, though I might make death's door equal to con score instead.

If you change the rules regarding how hit points are generated, then you have to either use different rules for the PCs compared to NPCs, or you'll just end up prolonging combat; those goblins won't go down nearly so quickly, so the chance of them getting a lucky crit against the PCs increases significantly.

This is true, which is why I wanted a better alternative. It does at least provide some warning, you get worn down a bit before the (un)lucky blow falls instead of 'oops, you got knocked the :censored: out'.

One thing that always helps me as a DM is to create interesting and complex encounters. *snip*

While that certainly does work, it all kinda falls apart if the enemies win initiative. Which contributes a good deal to this issue.

I know that for our group, they prefer a gritty world where they CAN die from a single strike. They don't like the "videogamey" (in their words) feel of getting knocked around and hit 30 times before feeling any effects of combat. But then, we play a highly modified version of 3.5 that is tailored to the group playing it. If you don't like to houserule and want to keep everything Core, just adding details and things like obstacles, vision impairments, rough terrain and such and you will give your players more options in combat. I like to make huge encounter maps so that the party can find ways to flank or even avoid a fight if they choose. I use a VT though, so that is a little easier to do than using battlemats and mini's as space is limited.

Everyone I know including myself is in the middle of that, leaning towards the lower end. Getting hit 30 times before feeling any ill effects doesn't happen, mostly because anything weak enough to need anywhere near that many hits will be long dead before it can get the chance. Yes I realize that was an exaggeration. However, being knocked from full to down, just like that doesn't hold an appeal either. It's anti climatic. Being smacked really hard, and it being clear they can't take another one like that but they're still on their feet? Well that's a good warning to employ that withdraw action. :P

I don't have any qualms about house ruling as needed, I've already done so many times to fix things deemed broken or useless. Keyword though is as needed. If there's a simpler way to accomplish the same task with fewer unforeseen consequences from the ripple effect, it's the superior option. Simple as that.
bobothechimp
08-27-07, 01:58 PM Star Wars Saga Edition does it by tripling the first Hit Die, and that works pretty well. Though it also has a lot of new rules, such as the condition track, to make it work.
Rhialto
08-27-07, 02:15 PM If you don't like the natural dynamic of 1st-2nd level, don't play 1st-2nd level. Start everyone at 3rd level instead.
The_Levitator
08-27-07, 02:33 PM If you don't like the natural dynamic of 1st-2nd level, don't play 1st-2nd level. Start everyone at 3rd level instead.

Simple, yet solid advice! :D We actually started our current campaign at 2nd level. I ran 1st level as solo sessions for everyone and then we started the campaign at 2nd level. And I threw quite a lot at the group to get the story going so they leveled to 3rd at the end of the first session. For starters, they all woke up together in a huge forest that was overrun with goblins and their characters didn't speak a common language. That was really exciting! After surviving the goblin-infested forest, the village they found was hit by an orc attack, and they chased some of them into nearby caves. So technically, we didn't really "start" until 3rd level. Starting out this way was a ton of fun for us as a group, as we used the 1st level to basically play out their backstory, and then I quickly got them through 2nd, so that we could start the metaplot at 3rd. What was really interesting is that the players came together not knowing anything about each other. They all came from different lands and I ran 1st level as solo sessions, so they really didn't know what anyone was playing. It made the first few sessions very interesting.

But having the group really get into the story at 3rd level made it easier all the way around. I tried to just start it at 3rd, but my players are old school and wanted to earn every level. Starting this way was a great compromise for our group.
Sunic_Flames
08-27-07, 02:46 PM If you don't like the natural dynamic of 1st-2nd level, don't play 1st-2nd level. Start everyone at 3rd level instead.

That's what I was doing for my previous DMing. The purpose here is to try and solve the problem, not merely avoid it. That, and I have an adventure in mind that'd make less sense/not work quite right if started at higher than 1. Thus my interest in making 1-2 viable so it's not just glossed over like it usually is.
FponkDamn
08-27-07, 03:59 PM There are a few things that either I've done, or I've seen other DMs do, to combat this problem. The simplest I've seen is:

Make the -10 buffer equal to con score. Makes con score matter a little more, and rarely will it hurt the PCs (since most will have a con score of at least 10). Best of all, doesn't impact most NPCs, since even if the rule is applied to them, most NPC combatants simply stop being an issue at -1, regardless of when they actually bleed to death. An even more PC-friendly version of this rule is to increase the -10 barrier by the con score, so even someone with a Con of 3 will get a bonus out of it.

This solution doesn't make it any harder to drop PCs in combat, but it does make it much more likely that they'll survive unconciousness, as long as any party members survive.

In this way, fireball is still good, combats aren't any longer, and they're just as "gritty" but there's less of a chance that the PCs will be randomly slaughtered. Even if the entire party is dropped, depending on the enemy, they might not die - random brigands are likely to rob them and leave them for dead, but probably wouldn't bother slitting their throats to finish them off. And with a "death's door" threshold of -15 to -25, the PCs have a greater chance to stabilize, then gradually heal... awaking several days later, half-starved and robbed blind in the woods isn't exactly great, but it's better than dead.

Plus, you can get some cool plot points out of that. Maybe they wake up in the cottage of a kindly sage who came upon them later that day, only he's not all he appears to be. Or maybe he rescues them, but when the PCs awake, he's died of old age and the strain of carrying them back - what do they do when they find the mysterious letter he was writing about them?

Sorry, started to write a post about mechanical help and got all roleplayer on ya. My bad.

Anyway, hope this helps!

- Johnny
nonsi
08-27-07, 04:30 PM Try this house rule:

Hit Points:
All creatures gain maximized HP according to their racial HD (either as given in the relevant Monster Manual or character races' paragon class HD) plus their CON-score. Any class taken grants 1/2 its maximized HD value +1 (e.g. 6 HP for d10) without regarding CON-mod.

Dropping below 0 HP:
Disabled but stable: up to [total-class-level] in negative HP value.
Dying: any negative value between [total-class-level] +1 and [total-class-level] + CON-score.
Death: anything beyond "dying".
Fallenangel359
08-27-07, 05:16 PM d20 starwars saga does 3xmax for first HD, then add con mod
I noticed it works really well
Rhialto
08-28-07, 02:41 AM That's what I was doing for my previous DMing. The purpose here is to try and solve the problem, not merely avoid it. That, and I have an adventure in mind that'd make less sense/not work quite right if started at higher than 1. Thus my interest in making 1-2 viable so it's not just glossed over like it usually is.

I regard the frailty of 1st-2nd level characters as a feature, not a bug. At that level, character survivability is at a very gritty/realistic level. If you don't like gritty combat, don't play at character levels which were designed to portray gritty combat.
Sunic_Flames
08-28-07, 09:46 AM I regard the frailty of 1st-2nd level characters as a feature, not a bug. At that level, character survivability is at a very gritty/realistic level. If you don't like gritty combat, don't play at character levels which were designed to portray gritty combat.

Or I could decide the rules that are unsuitable should be rewritten in a way that works better for those involved. As the DM is the law of the world, (s)he is well within their rights to rewrite these laws. You don't have to agree with this assessment, only accept that if it were as simple as that, we would not be having this discussion as this thread would not exist. In any case, going back and forth about it is pointless.

With that said I have decided on a hybrid approach.

Level 1: Max HP + con mod + half con score.
Level 2: Max HP + con mod.
Level 3+: Roll normally + con mod, but a roll of 1 is rerolled until 2 or higher if D4 or D6 HD, 1 or 2 rerolled until 3 or higher for D8 or D10 HD, and 1, 2, or 3 rerolled until 4 or higher for D12 HD.

These changes also affect NPCs and monsters.
kunadam
08-28-07, 11:11 AM I regard the frailty of 1st-2nd level characters as a feature, not a bug. At that level, character survivability is at a very gritty/realistic level. If you don't like gritty combat, don't play at character levels which were designed to portray gritty combat.

My thoughts exactly. The triple hp at first level is OK for SW, but in fantasy if you want more durable PCs, start them at higher level (as said above). Simple as that.
LordBOB777
09-01-07, 10:29 AM Ive seen people who dont use the -10 = death , instead they said death = con score
Ecalsneerg
09-01-07, 04:40 PM Ive seen people who dont use the -10 = death , instead they said death = con score

I've also seen death = -10 + con score, or -10 + Con modifer.
Enaloindir
09-05-07, 07:45 AM d20 starwars saga does 3xmax for first HD, then add con mod
I noticed it works really well

How does this impact the monster/NPC's CR (in D&D)?

Enaloindir
Werral
09-05-07, 01:16 PM I like the idea of a system where dropping is not so sudden: "I've got 2hp, I'm fine", "I've got 1hp, I'm shafted" "I've got 0hp I'm dying".

Normally wound systems make combat more deadly, but here's one that should actually make it less deadly.

Normal HP. at lvs 1-10. Beyond 10, d4 becomes +1, d6 +2, d8 +3, d10 +4 and d12 +5.

At 0 until -(con score+character level) characters operate as at 1hp under normal rules.

Beyond that until -2*(con+character) they are dying.

Beyond that they're dead.

So a Lv1 fighter with Con 14 fights as normal at 10 through 0 Hp. Is staggered at 0 HP and can only take one action per round. At -15 HP he's dying and at -30 he's dead.

I'd also say staggered characters can make a Fort save (DC 15+however much they're under 0), if they fail they drop in HP to the dying mark.

That way it's still pretty gritty but less random. Higher level characters have less HP to balance the extra safety margin they get.
Lefty
09-05-07, 04:24 PM Max HP at first level is a common and nice thing,
and great idea on a hp 1d12 "race" or "size."

Big and Brilliant IS possible and like that a tough
wizard begins.

But about Death's Door.

Don't just hand out the dozens of further hp,
use the constitution modifier. I rolled up a
character just the other day and found
that (1978) AD&D Players Manual gives a Con
16 a 91% of surviving System Shock.

There has to be a limit, and -30 sounds like
pretty close to ready for a shrink wrap and
trip to the Angus section.

Lefty
Korone
09-12-07, 01:34 PM *Snip*

I like this idea a lot, in fact, I'm going to steal it for my game.
It may give some more chance to a melee character in a solo game. I killed my lone player about once or twice in the first two or three sessions... it was horrible.
Werral
09-12-07, 05:57 PM Cool, let us know how it works out. Solo adventures are pretty hard to run. I'd also throw in more puzzles, nonlethal encounters (brawls, tournaments and stuff).

But yeah my basic idea was to toughen the lower levels and weaken the higher levels (so you don't go so much from "whoops I 'm dead" to "I eat crossbow bolts for breakfast")
trapspringer
09-12-07, 06:56 PM ...

Good advice.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sunic_Flames 08-27-07, 09:04 AM	The way things are now, all it takes is one random hit to drop most characters (and a random crit to kill them outright). Dying because you screwed up is one thing. Dying because the enemy rolled a 12 followed by a 6 to take you down then finished you off, not so much. I don't like this, so I'm changing it. I came up with three ways of doing it: 1: Bonus HP based on size. 10 for Medium, +/- 2 each size larger or smaller, applies once. Someone else first posted this, I think it was in the minor tweak thread. The main drawback though is it further shortchanges any small sized characters the players may wish to play. 2: Bonus HP based on first HD. Double that HD, or perhaps even triple it. Maybe even modify the con bonus by a similar amount. 3: Bonus HP equal to con score (not modifier). Kinda leaning towards the last one because smaller doesn't necessarily less durable. See: cockroaches, any small race with a con bonus, any medium race with a con penalty. The second one kinda works but leans itself a bit too much towards taking something with a large HD for the first level. Especially if you were gonna do it anyways, but later. The downside to all these is if applied to the PCs and not the enemies, it's effectively the same as just starting them at level 3, but much slower. Which defeats the point of what I'm doing. But if applied across the board, many things that were previously useful now aren't, and things that were on the fence crossed the line into non usefulness. After all, a fireball isn't gonna do much to a crowd of 20 HP hobgoblin warrior 1s, but it would against 6 HP ones. Ideas/thoughts/feedback?
DM Zoc 08-27-07, 09:53 AM	Use more swords and less axes for enemies. If your enemies are out-of-the-book kobolds and goblins, or average-strength humans, it is impossible to kill a PC in one shot without a critical hit (and a critical hit can only kill a small hit die class if the PC has low Con). The only real danger is when your enemies use x3 or x4 crit weapons, so just make an effort to not have those weapons show up before level 3. Simple solutions are always best. When going from second to third edition, they made level 1 survivable by mandating maximum hit points at first level, and the -10 hit point buffer. Consider extending this benefit to second level and doubling the threshold of death's door. If you change the rules regarding how hit points are generated, then you have to either use different rules for the PCs compared to NPCs, or you'll just end up prolonging combat; those goblins won't go down nearly so quickly, so the chance of them getting a lucky crit against the PCs increases significantly.
The_Levitator 08-27-07, 12:52 PM	One thing that always helps me as a DM is to create interesting and complex encounters. My players hate toe-to-toe slugfests, so I put a lot of work into the environment, obstacles, terrain, vision, back doors, etc. If you make a detailed encounter that gives the party multiple tactical options, they can tip the odds in their favor and try to minimize their risk. I love it when players do interesting things and interact with their surroundings to take out their foe. I recently had a party grab a nearby oxcart to break up a group of orogs who had taken defensive positions behind some rocks. They used the cart as a big shield, and as a distraction. The tanks pushed the cart up the road drawing fire while the rogue and monk flanked the orogs with missle fire. Once the orogs turned to deal with the arrows and bolts, the tanks charged from behind the cart. A 2nd level party of 4 took out 6 orogs by being careful and tactical. What was really cool about the encounter is that nobody in the party took a single scratch. Sure, it helped that 2 of the orogs were dropped by critical crossbow strikes before the tanks even got into the fray, but it was still a really fun encounter and the players were very proud of themselves for not taking any damage during the fight. The party used cover and tactics and didn't go toe-to-toe with the orogs until they basically had them down to half strength. It's more work as a DM to come up with creative encounters, but it's not a lot more work. For me, it's simply a matter of filling in the details. I try to picture the scene and think of all of the things that the characters might be able to use to gain an advantage. Big empty rooms with monsters in them are just not fun for my players. They want pillars, pools, fog, rubble, statues and rotten tomatoes. Anything that they can be creative with is a good thing. I know that for our group, they prefer a gritty world where they CAN die from a single strike. They don't like the "videogamey" (in their words) feel of getting knocked around and hit 30 times before feeling any effects of combat. But then, we play a highly modified version of 3.5 that is tailored to the group playing it. If you don't like to houserule and want to keep everything Core, just adding details and things like obstacles, vision impairments, rough terrain and such and you will give your players more options in combat. I like to make huge encounter maps so that the party can find ways to flank or even avoid a fight if they choose. I use a VT though, so that is a little easier to do than using battlemats and mini's as space is limited. The game is all about the players playing heroes, so I try to make sure that they either get to shine, or get their butts out of danger to live to fight another day.
Sunic_Flames 08-27-07, 01:21 PM	Use more swords and less axes for enemies. If your enemies are out-of-the-book kobolds and goblins, or average-strength humans, it is impossible to kill a PC in one shot without a critical hit (and a critical hit can only kill a small hit die class if the PC has low Con). The only real danger is when your enemies use x3 or x4 crit weapons, so just make an effort to not have those weapons show up before level 3. I was more refering to enemies like this: Hobgoblin, 1st-Level Warrior: Attack: Longsword +3* melee (1d8+1/19-20) or javelin +2 ranged (1d6+1) D4 class = 5-6 HP D6 class = 7-8 HP D8 class = 9-10 HP D10 class = 11-12 HP D12 class = 13-14 HP * - Yes, I know the default is +2. But as they have Alertness and it is not necessary for their functioning, I undid the anti optimization by making it weapon focus instead. It makes little difference either way though. Simple solutions are always best. When going from second to third edition, they made level 1 survivable by mandating maximum hit points at first level, and the -10 hit point buffer. Consider extending this benefit to second level and doubling the threshold of death's door. That is a good idea, though I might make death's door equal to con score instead. If you change the rules regarding how hit points are generated, then you have to either use different rules for the PCs compared to NPCs, or you'll just end up prolonging combat; those goblins won't go down nearly so quickly, so the chance of them getting a lucky crit against the PCs increases significantly. This is true, which is why I wanted a better alternative. It does at least provide some warning, you get worn down a bit before the (un)lucky blow falls instead of 'oops, you got knocked the :censored: out'. One thing that always helps me as a DM is to create interesting and complex encounters. snip While that certainly does work, it all kinda falls apart if the enemies win initiative. Which contributes a good deal to this issue. I know that for our group, they prefer a gritty world where they CAN die from a single strike. They don't like the "videogamey" (in their words) feel of getting knocked around and hit 30 times before feeling any effects of combat. But then, we play a highly modified version of 3.5 that is tailored to the group playing it. If you don't like to houserule and want to keep everything Core, just adding details and things like obstacles, vision impairments, rough terrain and such and you will give your players more options in combat. I like to make huge encounter maps so that the party can find ways to flank or even avoid a fight if they choose. I use a VT though, so that is a little easier to do than using battlemats and mini's as space is limited. Everyone I know including myself is in the middle of that, leaning towards the lower end. Getting hit 30 times before feeling any ill effects doesn't happen, mostly because anything weak enough to need anywhere near that many hits will be long dead before it can get the chance. Yes I realize that was an exaggeration. However, being knocked from full to down, just like that doesn't hold an appeal either. It's anti climatic. Being smacked really hard, and it being clear they can't take another one like that but they're still on their feet? Well that's a good warning to employ that withdraw action. :P I don't have any qualms about house ruling as needed, I've already done so many times to fix things deemed broken or useless. Keyword though is as needed. If there's a simpler way to accomplish the same task with fewer unforeseen consequences from the ripple effect, it's the superior option. Simple as that.
bobothechimp 08-27-07, 01:58 PM	Star Wars Saga Edition does it by tripling the first Hit Die, and that works pretty well. Though it also has a lot of new rules, such as the condition track, to make it work.
Rhialto 08-27-07, 02:15 PM	If you don't like the natural dynamic of 1st-2nd level, don't play 1st-2nd level. Start everyone at 3rd level instead.
The_Levitator 08-27-07, 02:33 PM	If you don't like the natural dynamic of 1st-2nd level, don't play 1st-2nd level. Start everyone at 3rd level instead. Simple, yet solid advice! :D We actually started our current campaign at 2nd level. I ran 1st level as solo sessions for everyone and then we started the campaign at 2nd level. And I threw quite a lot at the group to get the story going so they leveled to 3rd at the end of the first session. For starters, they all woke up together in a huge forest that was overrun with goblins and their characters didn't speak a common language. That was really exciting! After surviving the goblin-infested forest, the village they found was hit by an orc attack, and they chased some of them into nearby caves. So technically, we didn't really "start" until 3rd level. Starting out this way was a ton of fun for us as a group, as we used the 1st level to basically play out their backstory, and then I quickly got them through 2nd, so that we could start the metaplot at 3rd. What was really interesting is that the players came together not knowing anything about each other. They all came from different lands and I ran 1st level as solo sessions, so they really didn't know what anyone was playing. It made the first few sessions very interesting. But having the group really get into the story at 3rd level made it easier all the way around. I tried to just start it at 3rd, but my players are old school and wanted to earn every level. Starting this way was a great compromise for our group.
Sunic_Flames 08-27-07, 02:46 PM	If you don't like the natural dynamic of 1st-2nd level, don't play 1st-2nd level. Start everyone at 3rd level instead. That's what I was doing for my previous DMing. The purpose here is to try and solve the problem, not merely avoid it. That, and I have an adventure in mind that'd make less sense/not work quite right if started at higher than 1. Thus my interest in making 1-2 viable so it's not just glossed over like it usually is.
FponkDamn 08-27-07, 03:59 PM	There are a few things that either I've done, or I've seen other DMs do, to combat this problem. The simplest I've seen is: Make the -10 buffer equal to con score. Makes con score matter a little more, and rarely will it hurt the PCs (since most will have a con score of at least 10). Best of all, doesn't impact most NPCs, since even if the rule is applied to them, most NPC combatants simply stop being an issue at -1, regardless of when they actually bleed to death. An even more PC-friendly version of this rule is to increase the -10 barrier by the con score, so even someone with a Con of 3 will get a bonus out of it. This solution doesn't make it any harder to drop PCs in combat, but it does make it much more likely that they'll survive unconciousness, as long as any party members survive. In this way, fireball is still good, combats aren't any longer, and they're just as "gritty" but there's less of a chance that the PCs will be randomly slaughtered. Even if the entire party is dropped, depending on the enemy, they might not die - random brigands are likely to rob them and leave them for dead, but probably wouldn't bother slitting their throats to finish them off. And with a "death's door" threshold of -15 to -25, the PCs have a greater chance to stabilize, then gradually heal... awaking several days later, half-starved and robbed blind in the woods isn't exactly great, but it's better than dead. Plus, you can get some cool plot points out of that. Maybe they wake up in the cottage of a kindly sage who came upon them later that day, only he's not all he appears to be. Or maybe he rescues them, but when the PCs awake, he's died of old age and the strain of carrying them back - what do they do when they find the mysterious letter he was writing about them? Sorry, started to write a post about mechanical help and got all roleplayer on ya. My bad. Anyway, hope this helps! - Johnny
nonsi 08-27-07, 04:30 PM	Try this house rule: Hit Points: All creatures gain maximized HP according to their racial HD (either as given in the relevant Monster Manual or character races' paragon class HD) plus their CON-score. Any class taken grants 1/2 its maximized HD value +1 (e.g. 6 HP for d10) without regarding CON-mod. Dropping below 0 HP: Disabled but stable: up to [total-class-level] in negative HP value. Dying: any negative value between [total-class-level] +1 and [total-class-level] + CON-score. Death: anything beyond "dying".
Fallenangel359 08-27-07, 05:16 PM	d20 starwars saga does 3xmax for first HD, then add con mod I noticed it works really well
Rhialto 08-28-07, 02:41 AM	That's what I was doing for my previous DMing. The purpose here is to try and solve the problem, not merely avoid it. That, and I have an adventure in mind that'd make less sense/not work quite right if started at higher than 1. Thus my interest in making 1-2 viable so it's not just glossed over like it usually is. I regard the frailty of 1st-2nd level characters as a feature, not a bug. At that level, character survivability is at a very gritty/realistic level. If you don't like gritty combat, don't play at character levels which were designed to portray gritty combat.
Sunic_Flames 08-28-07, 09:46 AM	I regard the frailty of 1st-2nd level characters as a feature, not a bug. At that level, character survivability is at a very gritty/realistic level. If you don't like gritty combat, don't play at character levels which were designed to portray gritty combat. Or I could decide the rules that are unsuitable should be rewritten in a way that works better for those involved. As the DM is the law of the world, (s)he is well within their rights to rewrite these laws. You don't have to agree with this assessment, only accept that if it were as simple as that, we would not be having this discussion as this thread would not exist. In any case, going back and forth about it is pointless. With that said I have decided on a hybrid approach. Level 1: Max HP + con mod + half con score. Level 2: Max HP + con mod. Level 3+: Roll normally + con mod, but a roll of 1 is rerolled until 2 or higher if D4 or D6 HD, 1 or 2 rerolled until 3 or higher for D8 or D10 HD, and 1, 2, or 3 rerolled until 4 or higher for D12 HD. These changes also affect NPCs and monsters.
kunadam 08-28-07, 11:11 AM	I regard the frailty of 1st-2nd level characters as a feature, not a bug. At that level, character survivability is at a very gritty/realistic level. If you don't like gritty combat, don't play at character levels which were designed to portray gritty combat. My thoughts exactly. The triple hp at first level is OK for SW, but in fantasy if you want more durable PCs, start them at higher level (as said above). Simple as that.
LordBOB777 09-01-07, 10:29 AM	Ive seen people who dont use the -10 = death , instead they said death = con score
Ecalsneerg 09-01-07, 04:40 PM	Ive seen people who dont use the -10 = death , instead they said death = con score I've also seen death = -10 + con score, or -10 + Con modifer.
Enaloindir 09-05-07, 07:45 AM	d20 starwars saga does 3xmax for first HD, then add con mod I noticed it works really well How does this impact the monster/NPC's CR (in D&D)? Enaloindir
Werral 09-05-07, 01:16 PM	I like the idea of a system where dropping is not so sudden: "I've got 2hp, I'm fine", "I've got 1hp, I'm shafted" "I've got 0hp I'm dying". Normally wound systems make combat more deadly, but here's one that should actually make it less deadly. Normal HP. at lvs 1-10. Beyond 10, d4 becomes +1, d6 +2, d8 +3, d10 +4 and d12 +5. At 0 until -(con score+character level) characters operate as at 1hp under normal rules. Beyond that until -2*(con+character) they are dying. Beyond that they're dead. So a Lv1 fighter with Con 14 fights as normal at 10 through 0 Hp. Is staggered at 0 HP and can only take one action per round. At -15 HP he's dying and at -30 he's dead. I'd also say staggered characters can make a Fort save (DC 15+however much they're under 0), if they fail they drop in HP to the dying mark. That way it's still pretty gritty but less random. Higher level characters have less HP to balance the extra safety margin they get.
Lefty 09-05-07, 04:24 PM	Max HP at first level is a common and nice thing, and great idea on a hp 1d12 "race" or "size." Big and Brilliant IS possible and like that a tough wizard begins. But about Death's Door. Don't just hand out the dozens of further hp, use the constitution modifier. I rolled up a character just the other day and found that (1978) AD&D Players Manual gives a Con 16 a 91% of surviving System Shock. There has to be a limit, and -30 sounds like pretty close to ready for a shrink wrap and trip to the Angus section. Lefty
Korone 09-12-07, 01:34 PM	Snip I like this idea a lot, in fact, I'm going to steal it for my game. It may give some more chance to a melee character in a solo game. I killed my lone player about once or twice in the first two or three sessions... it was horrible.
Werral 09-12-07, 05:57 PM	Cool, let us know how it works out. Solo adventures are pretty hard to run. I'd also throw in more puzzles, nonlethal encounters (brawls, tournaments and stuff). But yeah my basic idea was to toughen the lower levels and weaken the higher levels (so you don't go so much from "whoops I 'm dead" to "I eat crossbow bolts for breakfast")
trapspringer 09-12-07, 06:56 PM	... Good advice.