Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xeviat-DM 04-25-06, 03:08 AM	Hello everyone. For some time now, I've been searching for ways to make magic items feel more ... magical, but I haven't been willing to change the balance between character level and wealth. I believe I have stumbled upon a few changes, and I'd like to hear what everyone thinks about them: +X enhancements on weapons, armor, and shields will no longer be a function of magic. These enhancements are tied to the crafting process, though items can later be re-forged (or re-treated) with special materials to increase their enhancement value after they're originally made. This means that a +3 long sword wouldn't be a magic item; it would be an exceptionally well made item. These "master craft" items would pierce the DR of monsters who have X/magic, though that DR may have it's name changed. Magical enhancements on weapons, armor, and shields can only be applied to master craft items. Additionally, the +X enhancement value for special enhancements cannot exceed the level of master craft. For instance, the flaming enhancement (+1 value) can be placed on a +1 master craft weapon, but wounding (+2 value) must be placed on a +2 master craft weapon or higher. This will keep players from creating +1 weapons with +9 worth of special enhancements (I just don't like that). Item crafting feats will be greatly condensed (others have suggested this before). Weapons and Armor will remain together, Potions remain alone, and scrolls remain alone. Staves and Wands are to be combined, rods are to be moved to Craft Wondrous Item (though some will require Craft Magic Arms and Armor). Lastly, rings will be added to Wondrous Item, and any expendable wondrous item will be moved to potions (as they are single use magical effects). I just think this has more symmetry and more elegance. So, I open the floor for discussion on the ideas I've posted above, and for other ideas you've come up with for making magic items feel a little more special. I'm aware of Weapons of Legacy, but I want to use those in my games for something else entirely. So, post away.
evanfardreamer 04-25-06, 03:43 AM	Hmm... If one-use magic Wondrous Items fit under potions, how can you really differentiate them from scrolls, which are also one-use magic items? Staves and Rods I can see combining, sort of- although I see more in common between rods and wands than rods and staves. For the main question, making magic seem magic... Try adding sound effects, and special effects. Perhaps make those boots of speed send out blue sparks when activated, or make the rings and wands grow warm when used. Perhaps scrolls disappear in a brilliant flash of magical energy when used; and have your players make circles over their heads with dice to simulate ioun stones. Dunno if it's any help, but it's worked for me.
the overlord 04-25-06, 03:56 AM	Also remember that it is stated within the rules. That most magic items (all materials and equipment...) create some minor illumination. Something many players forgot in game. Example: 'I'll get into hiding (throws 22 on hide)' Somehow the player is told his character succeed into hiding into the surrounding. But as soon as the character draws his weapon, uses his magical ring or starts pointing his wand... His opponenst may gain an additional spot check (after all something starts glowing from where they thought only shadow existed). I also like the sugestions made by evanfardreamer, add some affects (sounds, lights...). As far to comment your proposed changes, they seem workable. I'm not so sure on the item grafting feats (although as written they seem quite plausible). Greetings Noa
Xeviat-DM 04-25-06, 03:59 AM	I meant combine Wands and Staffs ... and Rods with Wondrous Items (except for those that are weapons too, which need Arms and Armor as well). Scrolls differ from Potions in that anyone can use a "potion", but you have to know how to read magic to use a Scroll. Also, Scrolls could be increased in power by using the user's ability scores for DCs, and caster level for scaling.
Xeviat-DM 04-25-06, 04:01 AM	One other thing I meant about magic items not feeling magical. When characters are looting +X weapons off of all of their NPC enemies, they begin to feel less special. If those weapons were just well crafted, that's one thing, but then when someone pulls out a flaming sword players might stop and say "wow". It wouldn't take a feat to make a mastercraft weapon, but it would take a feat and a caster to make a magic weapon.
Nor'Morgwae 04-25-06, 04:03 AM	I don't like the way the D&D magic items tie form to function. Arcana Unearthed (and the revised version Arcana Evolved) break it down by type; Charged, single use, constant and the like. I think it is a much nicer system. It allows for a great deal more flexability. Of course you don't need any books to make the change. Jsut call the feats "Craft Single Use Item" and "Craft Charged Item", this makes magic/psionic transparency easier too, since the items become the same. Personally I try to make every magic item unique. I don't remember ever handing out a +1 Longsword. They all have had name and something interesting about them (special abilities, histories, unusual compositions. Stuff like that) I never like the mandatory +1 before it can be enchanted further. Maybe it's a balance thing but it's boring. I don't want to save up for a sword and pay 2k so I can call it magical and get a single point of damage bonus (it already had the attack bonus from master work.) If that's what magic is magic sucks. I tend to ignore the rule and hand out flaming and returning weapons that don't have the +1 for that very reason. Like I said above, I am a big proponent of new abilites. For instance I made a weapon that resembles the balck arrow from the Hobbit. It does not break when fired, it can alway be found after the battle, it had a small atack bonus (I think just +1) and one per month (or year, I can't remember) it can grant its weilder True Strike for a single shot but becomes innert for 1 month thereafter.
Phoenix Knight 04-26-06, 01:40 PM	[list] +X enhancements on weapons, armor, and shields will no longer be a function of magic. These enhancements are tied to the crafting process, though items can later be re-forged (or re-treated) with special materials to increase their enhancement value after they're originally made. This means that a +3 long sword wouldn't be a magic item; it would be an exceptionally well made item. These "master craft" items would pierce the DR of monsters who have X/magic, though that DR may have it's name changed. You might consider having an "enchanted" special property instead. The enchanted quality is what allows it to bypass DR/magic, as well as strike incorporeal (with the usual 50% miss chance without ghost touch). This allows you to capture the feel of magic weapons in many books and movies, where swords can be magical without having flames, laser beams, or intelligence. I think it's also important for the flavor of creatures that have DR that a weapon actually be magical. A demon shouldn't be harmed more by a sword that is just well-made (other than existing damage bonus) - you should need something special to pierce its vile hide. If you want the enchanted quality to be more than that, you could have it add something else, as well: hardness/hit points go well with the flavor of an enchanted item. You could consider a damage bonus, or perhaps only a bonus when sundering. Your idea does produce an interesting variant.
rydi123 04-26-06, 06:47 PM	first, d20 future has a mastercrafter feat on pg.12 that you might want to take a look at. second, your idea is interesting, and i also feel that the game needs more 'magical' magic items. I also agree w/phoenixknight about the enchanted trait (which should probably add a +1 or +2 as well) being advisable for the actual peircing of dr and i also think it should be required to make a weapon w/other magical bonuses. third, look at the old encyclopedia magica series. they have tons of examples of special effects for items that dont fit into the cookie cutter mold of 3.5 d&d. you might also consider adding small, interesting abilities as gp cost increases to creation price rather than takig up an actual bonus (they have a few examples of this in the oriental adventures book, though they are also a bit cookie cuter as well). maybe your woodsman's axe always points to magnetic north, maybe a strong wind always blows (causing minor miss chance for projectiles maybe?) when you draw your sword of storms. these are neat flavor effects that are seriously lacking in the current ed. fourth, think about the way you hand out items. simply naming your magic items helps to give them more meaning. also, try rolling up your treasure before encounters, only rarely give random magic items. this cuts down on items feeling so similar, and allows you to craft a backstory and an interesting description of the item. fifth, think about creating some sort of signature bond between a character and their weapon. there are alot of options for this, ranging from the feats and weapons in WoL, to simply having the characters name magically appear on the weapon. sixth, try using more sentient items. not necessarily w/full sentience or communication (it is tiring playing tons of npcs that are always around and always trying to take control of the pc's) but just the empathic, slightly aware ones. they give out a few abilities, and the special purpose items add a bunch of flavor. when you think about it, most magic items in fiction do have a special purpose actually. well, hope these helped. i would comment on your shifting the categories around as well, but i really wasnt sure what your intended goal was there, so i couldnt really say anything.
Bhairavi 04-27-06, 02:01 AM	Description helps with this as well . . . instead of describing the item as a +1 longsword make it a longword with a gold filligree hilt and a star ruby in the pommel . . .as you draw it, the ruby flickers with an inner light . . . even if the thing is just a +1 longsword, the players will perk up.
scienceman47 04-27-06, 05:10 PM	The two ways to increase the value of a widget, in this case widget being anything of value, are to increase rarity, or increase utility. Magic items in general should be rare, and most of them should be unique, even if they lack great power. Give knowledge checks to recognize the story behind them, (history) checks are fantastic, or knowledge(nobility) for the weapons of royalty, (arcana) and (religion) are also good ideas. Magic shops should be rare, and preferably secret. Every item should be described with the detail you give to story significant items. Players often value something as much as the DM seems to. The more unique the weapon abilities, the better. PCs are often a bit jaded, one two many +2 scale mail. When every weapon could posses some unique secret power, even if it isnt that powerful, players look at every item with a bit more excitement. Suddenly every item is fresh, a mystery waiting to be unlocked. Ill continue this later.
Xeviat-DM 04-27-06, 09:34 PM	I don't know ... if every item has a history, that seems to imply that characters should actually have a reason not to sell off their ring of protection +1 when they get a ring of protection +2, or any other upgradable item. My proposition does make magic weapons, armor, and shields more rare; A +1 weapon is not magical, it's just well made. The suggestion for an "enchanted" property is interesting, but it would have to do something other than just piercing DR and shedding light. Any ideas?
Reighnhell 04-28-06, 12:55 AM	I like the "enchanted" quality idea. alot actually. Consider it swiped (yoink!). Another idea is to borrow a page from Older Video Game Rpg's. The best magical trinkets were never available at a simple magic shop. They were found as either a) At the bottom of a frightfully dangerous dungeon or b) pried from the cold, dead, hands of some BBEG. Your player wants a gnarly +5 flaming vorpal sword? Then let them know that the only one around is in the hands of Lord Slashstab, the 20th level Fallen Paladin Blackguard.
RaspK FOG 04-28-06, 02:31 AM	I like the "enchanted" quality idea. alot actually. Consider it swiped (yoink!). Another idea is to borrow a page from Older Video Game Rpg's. The best magical trinkets were never available at a simple magic shop. They were found as either a) At the bottom of a frightfully dangerous dungeon or b) pried from the cold, dead, hands of some BBEG. Your player wants a gnarly +5 flaming vorpal sword? Then let them know that the only one around is in the hands of Lord Slashstab, the 20th level Fallen Paladin Blackguard. I'll have to agree with the rest, but you got overboard by mistake there: any +5 flaming vorpal weapon is an epic item... A method I like as an idea when it comes to magic items is to apply a "meant for" logic; any item that was not meant to be originally used with such magic applied to it costs more to make because it was not meant to work in such a manner. Thus, Silent, Slick, and similar armour is meant to be light (meaning that a 10% increase of cost applies for medium armour, or 25% for heavy armour). On the other hand, I prefer to restrict other enhancements according to what it was meant to be use with; a simple such mechanic, for example (not that I have tested it, but it sure makes full-plate interesting once more) is to say that light armour can have up to Light Fortification, medium armour can have up to Medium Fortification, and only heavy armour can have Heavy Fortification.
Thelon Fairblade 04-28-06, 10:32 AM	(I was entering this response when the boards went down Tuesday, forgive me if it is now repetitive.) Likewise, I prefer all but the weakest and most common magic items (i.e. potions of Cure Light Wounds) to have history. Heck, the newest character in my campaign has no magic items at all (at 5th level), but his masterpiece daggers are all unique (Hawk and Falcon are +2 to hit when thrown, +0 in melee, and are range 20' instead of 10'; Talon is +1 to hit in melee, -1 thrown, +1 damage on crits, and +1 crit range), as is his armor. I also agree to the removal of the "must be +1 first" rule, but I recongize it's place --> artifically keeping the price up to an appropriate amount. A Flaming +0 longsword only costs 2000 (2315, actually), putting it in reach of a 3rd level character, or at least 4th. Energy damage to bypass skeletons' and zombies' DR, injure wraiths, beat down gargoyles, etc. Normally, at 8000, it would be a prize for a 6th level character. However, as a DM who is stingy about the items that are found (my players don't create), I don't need to worry about them getting items too cheap -- they still don't get the Flaming Sword until 6th if I don't want them to have one! Now, as for your specifics, Xeviat... I would go with the Arcana Unearthed/Evolved format, and go with "Single-Use", "Charged", "Spell-Completion", etc. as categories. However, your stated concept is fine too... "Wondrous Item" bottle of aspirin that cures light wounds = potion of cure light wounds without Craft Potion = no-no. For the weapons... I like the concept, but I think you might be two restrctive. you might want to go 2 for 1 on "plusses", for example. A nice "fiendslayer" sword might be +2, evil outsider bane, holy for +5 cost, but in your system would require +6. A Vorpal Sword couldn't be more than Vorpal; a suit of Heavy Fortification couldn't be more than that. You are limiting your own creativity, your ability to have the players decide "Do I want the Dragon Leather +1 of Heavy Fortification (AC 3), or the Breastplate +4 of Spell Resistance 13 (AC 9)?" Now, having said that, in a previous campaign one PC aquired a weapon called the Sword of Othalgar. By magic, the weapon was only +1, but by craftsmanship it was +2! If the target required magic to harm, the sword's enchantment would take over, but otherwise, the weapon was actually superior to basic magic weapons. Also, I like to grant weapons special qualitites based on construction, instead of just attack and damage bonuses. For example, dwarven-made crossbows have no "bonus to hit", but instead have "Armor Piercing, 2 pts", and ignore 2 points of DR or hardness. I will also suggest that you could change "DR/magic" from an all or nothing point of view to a gradation; each "plus" of the weapon represents the ability to pierce 5 points of DR/magic. So if a critter were DR 5/magic, a +1 weapon can harm it fully. IF it were DR 10/magic, though, a +2 weapon would be required; +3 to piece the strongest, DR 15/magic. (IMC, +4 weapons are legendary and +5 is reserved for ar (End of old reponse.) Something else I did, in a 2e campaign, was to give each race a different flavor to their exceptional equipment. For example, elven items were all just a little bit lighter (10%); dwarven items were usually sturdier (at the time, bonuses to item saving throws) and non-magically +2 under the enchantment; orcish weapons were "masterwork +1 damage" instead of "masterwork +1 attack"; and (my favorite) gnomish items all had a utilitarian minor enchantment. The Paladin in the campaign loved his Gnomish BattleAxe+2 of Cleanliness, because none of the gore from battle ever got on his pretty white tabard -- quite a style boost when you exit combat as clean and sweet-smelling as you went in! (Gnomish ropes were known to coil themselves, gnomish lanterns lit on voice command, gnomish armor would polish itself if a rag was nearby, etc.) You can make the "magic items" more magical without increasing their power. The "heron-marked blade" might be a +2 nonmagical sword, but you would still consider the +1 magic spear that mended its own haft when sundered...
Phoenix Knight 04-28-06, 12:29 PM	I think the bonus for enchanted allowing the bypass of DR and the ability to strike incorporeal creatures is likely enough on its own. Perhaps, especially, if you give a fixed cost, such as +2000gp. If you feel otherwise you can incorporate other possibilities: 1) + Damage. Mythical magic weapons often do far more damage than a normal weapon. If you want to really power up a weapon, you could have it double the normal damage dice (you'd probably need more than +2000gp to the price, though ;) ). 2) Built in ghost touch. 3) Built in keen. Mythical weapons in folklore often severe limbs and whatnot. 4) Extra hardness and hit points. I'd probably include this regardless. 5) Extra damage when sundering non-magical gear. Mythical swords like Excalibur are often depicted shattering lesser swords. I think the point seems to be to strip the number from the magical enhancement, making it feel more special, and less mechanical (which is regulated to mechanical things like construction). Regardless, it feels out of flavor to allow a non-magical sword to strike a ghost because it is well-made, or to damage an outsider because its extra sharp.
Xorial 04-28-06, 01:53 PM	You may want to check out some of the magic item process in Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved. He changed the feats to things like Craft Charged Item, Craft Single Use Item, Craft Constant Item.... They are really neat, and, though it doesnt cover everything you want....it does touch on some of the things you addressed. Thats what I get for not reading EVERY post. The above is already mentioned. :embarrass
Thelon Fairblade 04-28-06, 03:38 PM	Actually, I like the idea of an "Enchanted" special ability, as outlined above! neat!
rydi123 04-28-06, 06:53 PM	thelon, you have some good ideas.
rhammill 04-28-06, 09:29 PM	I use a completely different approach to the core system, but it ties into many other aspects of my rules. This incomporates some major changes. I use a spell point system, and every person has spell points (basically the same as skill points, but they are replenished each day). I use the masterwork option to increase the value and bonus (+1 to +5) instead of magic. This can be improved later as well. The DC for creating weapons of this quality is high, and the smith must have a minimum number of ranks in Craft to make the vaious qualities. Magic items generally have a history, and a description and are rare. I don't have magic stores, and those people who own magic items generally don't sell them. You can add other abilities to existing items. Magic items have permanent spells within them, that can be 'cast' by anyone (in most cases). They don't have charges, or limits on their use. Instead the abilities have a spell point cost and they have to make a skill check. So a fighter with a longsword that has several abilities: light (0 level, 3 points), flaming (2nd level, 6 points), dancing (4th level, 12 points), and strike creatures susceptible to silver (0 level, 3 points), can be used as the fighter sees fit, within the limits of his spell points. Higher level fighters can gain more use out of a sword than a low level fighter. I use the UA Spell point fatigue idea (when reduced to 1/2 spell points they are fatigued). So a battle against a lycanthrope can use a lot of the days' allotment of spell points (and be tiring as well, if he uses enough spell points). A few days later, against a vampire, he can use the dancing ability to stay out of range of the energy drain, but will run out of spell points pretty quickly. In a standard campaign you could simply assign spell points of 4 + Int modifier at each level, X 4 for first. Use the Sorcerer spell table to determine what level "spells" a character can use (for example, to use the dancing ability above the fighter would have to be 8th level). This allows you to create interesting, multifaceted magic items, without having to 'trade-up' in the future, but still maintain balance because many abilities won't be accessible. Since spell casting won't be a skill in most campaigns, just have them make a Int Check with a DC of 15+level of the effect. They can spend additional spell points to improve their check before they make the roll if they'd like. When spell points are equal to 1/2 of their total, they are fatigued (and they drop to 1/2 if they are fatigued for any other reason). At 1/4 spell point total they are exhausted. Other items function in a similar manner, for example: Wands have a given spell, it just uses spell points to cast. Scrolls are now permanently written spells, that simply use spell points to cast. Potions function as normal.
rydi123 04-29-06, 05:16 AM	that makes for a very interesting campaign setting i bet.
FlameLover 04-29-06, 07:22 AM	I've found myself with the same quandry, and have decided the following 3 steps to solve most "magic items arn't cool anymore" problems: - All magic items have a back-story. It doesn't have to be a page long, but a paragraph about why, when and how it was made is enough to sate most groups. Then parcel the info over 3 DC levels - 15, 25 and 35. These are the DCs to find out the info using Knowledge (Whatever is most applicable) or Bardic Knowledge. - Give magic items little abilities that might not be flashy or particularly useful, but give it a sense of uniqueness. Stuff like emotions you get when you use it, small bonuses to particular situations, etc. Having a sword give you a +2 bonus on attack rolls against a particular wizard because he turned out to be the rival of the creator gets characters thinking. - Have magic items "scale" with level. I'm still working on this and have got no response from the board yet, but it helps stop players from "shopping around" for items. Using the Weapons of Legacy rules work, although i'm trying to hammer out a simpler system for my own campaign. I'm hoping using those 3 points from now on will make players respect and think about the items that they're using.
RobertJ 04-30-06, 12:22 AM	I've been thinking a lot about how to make magic items really feel magical again. A lot of my ideas are fairly similar to things discussed in previous posts here but I'll add my two cents... I'm currently DMing a low magic D&D campaign, and also playing in an "A Game of Thrones" (George Martin) D20 campaign. One of the things that I really like about the "A Game of Thrones" system is that Shields are a huge bonus to defense (something like +4 to +8). However, shields have low hardness (made of wood) and have relatively few HP, so breakage becomes a significant factor. One of the things I've been considering doing is trying to implement more regular rules for weapon damage. Sundering is okay, but I'd like to see more gradual weapon damage rules that represent wear and tear on weapons from general use. A Game of Thrones uses an "Attack Roll" vs. "Defense Roll" system, so I suppose a natural 20 on a defense roll could indicate that the failed/parried attack results in some damage to the attacker's weapon. However, I don't think I want to adopt the "Defense Roll" system for my own campaign, so I've been trying to think of alternatives. Most of my ideas add what I feel is needless complication to the system, things such as Hardness vs. Hardness rolls, or Clash rolls, and so on. I think what I may do instead is simply have a weapon either take 1d2 points of damage after a battle, or take 1 point of damage every 3 turns. This isn't final or anything, but when normal weapons need constant repair/replacement a magical weapon that can't be damaged by normal means becomes an awesome asset. (Note that I would probably allow sundering attempts from normal weapons to damage magical weapons, but not normal wear-and-tear. If players want a magical weapon that can't be damaged except by a stronger magical weapon, I would force them to pay for that 'nigh-invulnerable' trait.) The weapons start to take on character just by virtue of being with the characters where normal weapons would have failed. I have also been strongly mulling ideas such as FlameLover suggested -- In my campaign all master smiths would be well known and each master smith produces items with specific unique characteristics. For example, two master smiths may have a rivalry of sorts -- When an Ironhill hammer is used against an opponent wielding a Corbusier sword the attacker gains an additional +1 to his attack roll. I feel it adds a lot to the game world when you can't just pick up a masterwork weapon from any generic "General Store" -- If you want one, you must seek a master smith. Needless to say, masterwork weapons should probably cost significantly more than the PHB listed price if you're going to use this method (300-500g). Combined with my ideas above on making weapon damage more regular this makes maintaining masterwork weapons a pretty significant expense. (This is a good thing, in my opinion, since I feel the D&D economy is seriously out of whack.) However, this should definitely mean that magical weapons, which automatically bypass much of this upkeep cost, should cost more (3000-5000g for +1 enhancements).
Jerks 05-02-06, 03:53 AM	I use a completely different approach to the core system, but it ties into many other aspects of my rules. This incomporates some major changes. I use a spell point system, and every person has spell points (basically the same as skill points, but they are replenished each day). I use the masterwork option to increase the value and bonus (+1 to +5) instead of magic. This can be improved later as well. The DC for creating weapons of this quality is high, and the smith must have a minimum number of ranks in Craft to make the vaious qualities. Magic items generally have a history, and a description and are rare. I don't have magic stores, and those people who own magic items generally don't sell them. You can add other abilities to existing items. Magic items have permanent spells within them, that can be 'cast' by anyone (in most cases). They don't have charges, or limits on their use. Instead the abilities have a spell point cost and they have to make a skill check. So a fighter with a longsword that has several abilities: light (0 level, 3 points), flaming (2nd level, 6 points), dancing (4th level, 12 points), and strike creatures susceptible to silver (0 level, 3 points), can be used as the fighter sees fit, within the limits of his spell points. Higher level fighters can gain more use out of a sword than a low level fighter. I use the UA Spell point fatigue idea (when reduced to 1/2 spell points they are fatigued). So a battle against a lycanthrope can use a lot of the days' allotment of spell points (and be tiring as well, if he uses enough spell points). A few days later, against a vampire, he can use the dancing ability to stay out of range of the energy drain, but will run out of spell points pretty quickly. .... That is damned interesting man. I to have fiddled with magic items as well. As it stands it too much like kitting out a character in a sci-fi movie, and I hate the concept of trading up your +1 for a new shiny +2 flaming! In my own campaign I've greatly expanded Mastercrafting (inspired by d20 Modern) to create weapons of up to +2 enhancement (attack and damage bonuses are bought seperately). Higher powered items are founded through Legacy rituals (Weapons of Legacy). Armor functions much the same way, with individual statistics of armor capable of being enhanced seperately. I haven't found a good way to do the Wonderous Items list yet (as many of them don't make good Weapons/Items of Legacy), but this spell power thing sparks of genius and may get me creating tonight.