Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Elhan the Sorcerer 02-03-05, 02:51 AM	Hey guys...I am currently thinking out what rule differences I will be using for the setting I am writing. Right now, I have overhauled the slot system by using a mana system instead, allow races who gain free weapon proficiencies to promote this proficiency to a focus if they take a class which gived the proficiency (in this way an elf fighter will have a Weapon Focus: Longsword) and I am thinking of using many of the UA custom rules (such as mixing the DB with DR for armours). Now, where I need some help is on the martial arts. Monks will feature heavily amonst my elven cultures, as their primary fighting style. Elven monks will use a mixture of blade and unarmed combat. Essentially, their fighting style is identical to kung fu. However, I then thought what of the other races? I would like to implement a form of Tae Kwon Do, Karate and Judo for the catfolk, a form of Jiu Jitsu and Kendo for human monks. Also, one of my favourite fighting arts is Aikido (I love playing Nina in Tekken 4...she combines devastating kick attacks with bone crushing aikido moves). Now, Aikido is a martial art which is devastating against larger individuals and is heavily based on Ki, ie inner strength, reversing an agressor's attack causing damage to herself...it also requires time and dedication. The problem is these styles aren't represented by the generic D&D Monk. Obviously, Aikido could substitute Strength with Wis for damage purposes, and allow a character to do a damaging move when successfully grappling a character (allowing attack reversals as well if the other character makes the attack first and the monk makes a check that defeats the BAB of the agressor), at the cost of sacrificing a long hold. Judo, similarly, could use grapples to perform Judo moves. Aikido also involves pressure moves which can kill instantly. Kung fu is not too hard either...being the quintessential and most powerful and versatile martial art, it encompasses all styles and has both Chi and physicall based aspects, and as such the monk represents it fairly well. It would be easy to allow monks following the style to use weapons used by the Shaolin monks as monk class weapons. However, how would you represent the various Kung Fu styles? Some are Chi based, others based on kicks, others based on pressure points...and then another problem is how do you make sure these styles are balanced? It would be pointless for a monk to take a Jiu Jitsu like style if Aikido is a better use of his time. Furthermore, arts like Tae Bo are kick intensive. Should a monk be able to do a continuous flurry of kicks instead of fist strikes? How could each of these styles be implemented? Should they be a class choice? Should broader styles, such as kung fu, slow levelling up (and only offer considerable power at high levels, with styles such as the Dragon)? Would it be a good idea to make them available in the form of feats, allowing a monk to choose up to X number of feats from each style (and combine styles at the cost of martial art mastery, as many martial artists do)? BTW, I am using Szatany's Ultimate Monk. Then I also want to add high heels to the setting. Ones with long, sharp heels can be used as weapons. Yet, to do more damage the character would either have to trample the enemy or kick with the heel. I was thinking of a 1d4 damage bonus to kick attacks with a 2d25% chance of occuring, to represent the likelihood of kicking with the heel, also allowing for powerful criticals. Characters trampling on tripped characters as an attack of opportunity will always gain this damage. The Dirty Fighting feat will allow blows to the groins, dealing a further 1d4 damage. What do you guys think? High heels will naturally require a high balance and incur balance penalties, making a character with low balance vulnerable to trip attacks. Any useful input will be appreciated. ;) Elhan
HailSpork 02-03-05, 03:46 AM	I made a homespun RPG that allowed you to build monks by choosing from a myriad of unarmed maneuvers, kind of like as feats. I personally found that to be a lot more interesting than simply improving unarmed damage, flurry of blows, and the other advances the DnD monk gets. If you wanted to implement that, there are several existing feats that could serve the purpose: stunning fist(obviously), trip attack, almost every other feat that requires combat expertise, prone attack (from complete warrior), and several others. I'm not too familiar with the szatany build (I just looked at it), so I'm not sure how you'd implement it. It would obviously outshadow the fighter if you could have manuevers/feats instead of enlightenment (and therefor more feats than a fighter)... As for the high heals: 1) How do you roll a d25? random number generator? 2) As for balancing it as a weapon, it should probably be similar to the gauntlet or spiked gauntlet. 3) I don't have any personal experience, but wouldn't it be nearly impossible to walk around in high heals outside of a city? I mean, I thought it was silly for somebody in full plate to go spelunking... imagine somebody in full plate and high heals (unless the high heals are enchanted). So, has anybody ever worn high heals camping?
Elhan the Sorcerer 02-03-05, 05:55 AM	Hmm could you help me combine the szatany build with a feat based model such as yours? I am interested in making a more realistic and powerful monk than the generic D&D monk, which is just an unarmed fighter. High heels can be adapted to any environment. I am not talking about Gucci high heels here. The ones I refer to are sturdy, well built, elegant weapons. Naturally, ones based on the stilleto model will not be suited for environments out of cities, although they will be the most formidable and high damaging of high heels. Ones with shorter heels (1- 2 inches) though will be suited for most environments, save glaciers, and will incur lighter balance penalties, yet will do less damage. High heels can be made part of a plate mail armouring by the way...instead of having metal boots, you can have high heel boots. Same applies for any armour. Balance checks, based on the heel's height (like -6 for a 4 inch heel) will make sure that you don't wear high heels in environments they aren't suited for. Sorry, change the value to 2d20%.
Elhan the Sorcerer 02-04-05, 05:58 PM	Some ideas people? :rolleyes: Also, I am interested in altering current DEX rules so that higher DEX means more attacks per round. How could I do this? I am not too sure how initiatives etc work. By giving a bonus to the initiative could I allow a character to attack more per round? Or is it just for the first attack? I know that BAB affects the number of attacks you get per round. Perhaps a higher attack could increase BAB in such a way that it allows more attacks per round? Any suggestions?
Elhan the Sorcerer 02-06-05, 09:52 AM	Bump? :rolleyes:
Lord Welkerfan 02-06-05, 10:46 AM	I have seen two effective ways to introduce martial arts styles into D&D. The first was in the Oriental Adventures. In that book, certain groups of feats were grouped together into a style. When a character of any class obtained all of the feats in the style, they received another ability that exemplefied the style. It was kind of like feat synergy. The second was in Dragon magazine 310. Here, a monk could select a style at first level. The style would then dictate the bonus feas a monk gets at first, second, and sixth level. It also gave a +2 bonus to a specific skill at first level. Lastly, if the monk had fulfilled certain requirements by sixth level, it gained another small ability. In my opinion, the system in OA works better. It allows for all characters to master a martial art, as well as allowing those with many feats to master many styles. It is also possilbe to easily build on them, allowing for different levels of mastery. One could create several "levels" of Kendo, each with different feats that gave progressively stronger abilities.
Lomion 02-06-05, 11:18 AM	I know it is old but I would recommend taking a look at the Complete Ninja's Handbook from 2E. It had a section in there dealing specifically with martial arts and I think it was very sucessful. It had several different styles represented and each had a certain set of "abilities" that one could take. These could be used as the feats. What was great about it was that it allowed for a character to learn several different elements of different styles to get different advantages. It also allowed for variation. You could have several different characters all with Aikijutsu say and they are not going to be cookie cutter images of each other. Their abilities depended on the ones they selected as they advanced. While it is similar to the OA ideas and most likely was the basis for OA, I think it was better in it's 2E format. It's worth a look at least.
DHKase 02-06-05, 03:08 PM	I would think that the different style would effectively be something along the lines of prestige classes, each with their distinctive flair and granting individual benefits. Maybe the Akido esque class would have a feat where the wisdom modifiers can stack along with strength modifiers in grapples while in Judo, which is more concerned with leverage, the person grappling is considered to be of a bigger size category or be granted the bonus of being exceptionally stable or exceptionally competent. Kung fu is harder to pin down as their are several individual styles with in the one core style. But to make a traditional shaolin monk, I'd say start of the PC with automatically gaining the martial weapon proficiency feat as a class feature. Tae Bo... well I sort of don't even cosider that a martial art so much as a work out regimine created by a martial artist. I mean it's great to get your heart rate up and shed the pounds, but as far as combat effectiveness... In the 3.5 system, there is no distinction between how much damage one's kick can do compared to their fist, forehead, or any other appendages. So there should be no difference between launching a flurry of kicks when compared to launching a flurry of combination blows with all parts of the body. As far as dexterity allowing for more attacks I'm not sure that will fly. After all, speed is only have the equation. One needs power and focus to back an attack especially when using nothing but their body. The flurry of blows ability represents the dispersion of that for more attacks per round as does the standard full attack breack down in attack bonuses. As for the high heels, it sounds like an exotic piercing weapon to me. I feel that it should change the monks damage from bludgeoning, to peircing but at the cost of attacks per round. Let me try to put it like this... the only time the heel is used in a kick would probably be in a back kick. Other wise, it's the blade (side kick), sole (front kick), or shin (round house kicks) that is going to be the impact area. You can try to incoporate the heel into it but that would spoil the kicks effectiveness. As far as an automatic attack of opportunity after a trip, that seems like something that one has to train to do and would therefore be a feat or a class feature. After all, what's the difference between stepping on a person with a high heel or stepping on them with a metal spiked climbing boot? I really see no advantage to wearing high heels into combat to just wearing regular shoes. Personally, as a martial artist myself, I think that there is nothing wrong with the Monk's representation as an unarmed, lightly armored combatant.
Elhan the Sorcerer 02-16-05, 07:09 AM	IRT Lomion and Welkerfan: Hmm cool I will check out both the OA and the Complete Ninja then. Seems I will be going with the OA, provided it is in 3e/ 3.5 e. Can they be found online? IRT DHKase: No, I want to completely avoid using prestige classes in this case. There are already enough of them. I think I will see how the OA and Complete Ninja books handle it instead. BTW, my mistake. I should have said Tae Kwon Do instead of Tae Bo. :rolleyes: Another thing. When I said Dex should affect your attack speed, I meant in all situations, not just unarmed fighting. Heavy armours would naturally slow you down etc, but I think a weapon's size and build as well as a character's own agility should make them faster/ slower. High heels would probably change the attack damage to piercing. I don't see how they would diminish a kick's effectiveness. If anything, they would add to it. Wearing stilleto high heels a woman can exert as much pressure as a cow, which is a huge amount. They would definitely increase the damage done by heel kicks. Many women use high heels nowadays when fighting. Why would you need training to trample on a person whilst they're down? All a high heel would do is add more damage to any trampling attacks. I am going to allow trampling attacks through a feat called Dirty Fighting, if that's what you meant. The D&D Monk lacks the versatility and cultural richness that real life martial artists have. Its merely a lightly armed fighter. I want something that goes beyond that, something similar to a shaolin monk etc. My dark elven blademistresses are based on the shaolin monk, so I want to make sure they have the necessary feats to emulate that style in game.
gparali 03-21-05, 03:15 AM	THe best way i think is Ken Hoods Martial Arts Supplement. It is detailed and free.
Elhan the Sorcerer 03-21-05, 03:47 PM	Cool :) Where may I find it?
Drizzt Clone 03-21-05, 06:29 PM	Here. (http://www.falkayn.com/traveller/downloads.html) Google is my friend. You might want to give the psionics system a look too. Very nifty (unless you're playing an epic campaign, at which point it falls apart).
Elhan the Sorcerer 03-22-05, 04:57 PM	Thanks ;)
Drizzt Clone 03-23-05, 09:27 PM	Not a problem. Tell me how the martial arts system works for your game. Also, your game world sounds very intriguing. Perhaps you could post more about it (or direct me to a link to it, if you already have) on the Homebrew boards? Elves attacking with high heels are nifty.
Titan W 03-24-05, 12:49 AM	Anohter thing to consider is that within styles like Kendo, used for the blade, the more militeristic, and now more rare art, was Kenjutsu. Kendo was developed for more training and sport purposes than actual combat, about 100 years later. Iaido was derived from Iaijutsu as well, so in a combat orientation it would be more common to practice Kenjutsu, as opposed to Kendo, however they are simmilar... some sublte differences you may wnat to research... As for the other martial styles... I created a judo based character, who attacked using a dmageless strike, and then used that to perform other techniques (Mostly throws and the like) that caused fall damage and the like.. as opposed to a striagint pucnch.. .and at higher levels combined the standard attacks with this ability... it worked well...
Kail 03-27-05, 01:37 AM	The Complete Ninja was 2nd ed's take on the 1st Ed Martial Arts system from the original OA. Didn't seem to work as well as the original. For 3rd I'd do a few things to put things together for your martial arts. Most of what you need can be found in the feats presented in OA and the complete warrior, along with the standard PHB feats. A lot of what your seeking to do can be accomplished through use of the OA style mastery benefits. A small series of feats, that a focused character could obtain by say, 9th level, grants a certain small bonus. In the OA, Meditation for War{hope I remembered that right} is modeled after Shoalin Kung-Fu. A bonus to Stunning attempts and a weapon focus are the mastery benefits. Most of the styles presented in OA line up fairly well with real world styles. Foot and Fist mastery is TKD in it's pre-Olympic sport format for example. Of that's my take on it. Each feat, even standard ones from the PHB have several ways in which they can be described to fit with a martial art. Is Power Attack a hard, focused karate punch, or a Mau Tai round knee to the body? It's both, and neither. The mechanic is the same for Power Attack no matter how it's described. So you need to visualize the core techniques that define a style. Find the feats that best emulate those techniques, or create well balanced new ones and build a mastery listing from those. Remember that not all of the feats that typical practitioners have are needed for mastery of a style. Now Dex does affect speed in combat, a bonus, or penalty to initiative is already in place. Any other speed in combat is based from skill, ie. BAB. While a naturally quick individual may be able to flash a lot of movement into what looks like a nice series of attacks, without training and experience, they are just flash, not real attacks. The monk class is heavily based on Shaolin myth and popular image. The old tv series Kung Fu is a very heavy enfluence on the class. So your Shaolin Drow basically needs proficiency with some pole arms, stunning fist, improved trip, power attack, cleave and combat reflexes to fit a large number of Shaolin images. Kail
Elhan the Sorcerer 03-27-05, 02:44 PM	Thanks guys for all the information :) Very helpful stuff. Hopefully I shall be able to come up with good material for the martial arts. So attack speed is already something determined adequately by Dexterity then? Good. :) Thing is I want to try and make attacking in the game more interactive. I intend on making my setting into an MMORPG if I can get it published. An attack system that allows you to click and attack would be preferrable.
Lord Welkerfan 03-28-05, 07:53 AM	If you want a click and attack system, you are playing the wrong game. Here is an article written by Sean K. Reynolds, a designer with heavy influence on 3e and who is considered one of the best FR designers ever, on introducing weapon speeds into combat. http://seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/weaponspeeds.html
Elhan the Sorcerer 03-28-05, 08:23 AM	Hmm I'll have a look at it ;) I wouldn't consider any other system though, as they lack D&D's complexity...I have given other systems a go. D&D is definitely the way to go for settings :) So even if its not click and attack, I'll stick with it. I just hope Wizards gradually moves it into real time (for PC games at least). :cool:
Lord Welkerfan 03-28-05, 07:15 PM	You ought to check out D&D Online when it is released. It is based in Eberron and uses a real-time combat system with the user doing most of the controls. The article by SKR is on why weapon speeds don't work.
Elhan the Sorcerer 03-29-05, 03:49 PM	Yes, I am looking forward to D&D Online...when will it be released anyway? :confused: I want to have a look at it...when I have more time :cool:
Elhan the Sorcerer 04-09-05, 11:13 AM	I have some time now for some better replies :P IRT Drizzt Clone: The martial arts system seems rather intricate. However, doesn't OA do a better job of it? Which would you say is better? Ken Hood's system does seem developed, but I am wondering if its not a little too campaign orientated. It could be used in unison though. It details many interesting martial art concepts, like nerve strikes. No animal styles exist within it though, like the Tiger, which are popular aspects of Kung Fu. I like the fact that he links psionics with martial arts practice :) So could OA and Ken Hook's ideas be linked? In addition, would you guys advise the use of the Grim n' Gritty combat rules? Are these included in the D&D Arcana Unearthed? I am not thrilled by his life bar ideas, so I will most likely omit these and adapt standard D&D rules to his wound ideas to make it more flexible. Massive Damage Thresholds already make combat more challenging as it is. You asked for me to explain how martial arts work in my setting, and I shall do so. Elves, being the long lived creatures they are have developed ways to harmonise body and soul, and thus developed the intricate martial arts styles. Dark elves use a form of shaolin kung fu, with intensive use of fast, hard hitting swords. High elves, on the other hand, use mixtures of Iaijutsu, Kenjutsu and Aikido, with some levels of Jiu Jitsu. The two styles are thus somewhat different. High elves are far more focused on using the sword than any other race, and are masters of the katana. Note that neither elven race emulates any asian culture. There are philosophical and cultural influences, but both races are unique in their way. Mostly, dark elven females (who are physically more powerful than males, despite this not being so relevant an issue in martial arts) reach the pinnacle of martial art mastery by training as blademistresses (the highest level of master attainable). A basic assumption I use is that Ch'i (or Ki) is the basis of all energy and magic. Thus, harnessing it correctly, one can magically augment their attacks (like the Enlightened Fist can), commune with nature by linking with its energy (druidism), project the force of the mind (psionics) or link with the gods and celestial beings (divine magic). In addition, one may augment their physical potential (martial arts). All races use these powers to varying levels, but none as well as the elves. Magic is an internal, rather than external, force in my setting. Thus all concepts of energy are inter-related. Mana is Ch'i transformed into magical energy, which is highly fluid and flexible. Use of high heels in fighting is something both males (who use shorter and more masculine variants) and females engage in. Elves are naturally gifted with good balance, despite being tall and lithe, and have learnt how to incorporate heels into their attack systems. Other races try and emulate them. High heels were developed by elven female warriors not as a beauty accessory (they are already very tall), but as a weapon under which their foes would be crushed. Very different style of conception than earthen high heels. My basic inspiration for high elven martial artists is Nina from the Tekken series (Tekken 4 in particular). She uses a mix of powerful aikido moves with pressure points, devastating high kick systems and bone crushing techniques, and some street fighting tactics. She even uses high heels :P Uma Therman from Kill Bill is the second inspiration, with her lethally fast sword fighting style. I am attempting to meld these styles to create a unique form of elven martial artist. Dark elves, on the other hand would be more similar to Lee, Lei and Xiaoyu from the Tekken series...a mix of deadly hand and footwork coupled with weaponwork. Speed is the forte of both races. Frost elves have not developed such concepts, and are more like civilised vikings than anything else. Now, other races have also developed advanced martial arts systems, mainly inspired by the elves. Nedahrians (a nation of humans similar to germans) have regional use of a Tae Kwon Do system. Tigrae and Panthaeri (both cat races) use forms of Judo and Karate. Most other races use attack systems similar to the standard D&D monk, with an emphasis on defensive arts like Jiu Jitsu and Tai Ch'i. The elves are generally the most developed race in terms of martial arts. Now regarding my world, it is still in development :( No documentation really exists here as of yet. I am still in the idea phase. I need to do some reading, both of historical, mythical and D&D source books so to formulate the world in a way that is both original and interesting. I plan on using the Expanded Psionics handbook in addition to anything else core D&D rule books offer. Are Ken Hook's ideas better than standard D&D ideas or would I be better off using the EPH? Psionics will feature quite heavily in my setting, as mind flayers, dark elven factions and other races have mastered its use. As the campaign will have an epic focus, the rules will need to be able to accommodate it. IRT Titan: I am well aware of such subtle variations ;) I am intending to use the martial arts in their original, more powerful forms. I am also going to read up on martial arts to make sure I deliver an accurate depiction of them within my setting. IRT Kail: Currently I am seriously thinking of using the OA, Ken Hook's supplement and Complete Warrior supplement as sources of inspiration. I want to incorporate all martial art styles that I mentioned above to DrizztClone. What I might do is implement the generic feats and suggest how to combine them to emulate specific martial art styles available in Darenthir, and specify which are needed for mastery. I want players to be able both to master an art, as well as diversify should they so choose. Having generic feats will greatly aid this, so long as they adequately represent the aspects of the martial arts I wish to convey. I want to go beyond the D&D's simplified Shaolin monk. I might also use Ken Hook's ideas. Is one allowed to paraphrase his work so long as they give him the necessary credit? That is what I understood from the OGL rules. Well, thats it for now :)