Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Draco Strang 01-29-05, 06:16 AM	Hey, I know that the DMG says that no PC should have an ability score modifier of greather than +5. However, we all know that Elminster has a mid-twenties constitution, and Larloch has an ungodly intelligence. So, does this rule apply only to PCs? Personally, I have no problem letting my players put every stat point they have into a final 18. They'll wind up with a 23 if they dump all 5 points into it, for a +6 bonus. Add onto this any periapts of wisdom, gloves of dex, or belts of giant strength and you can quite possibly wind up with something approaching 30, especially if you have a race that gives you a plus to a stat. What I want to know is, do you guys think it's unbalanced for a high level rogue to get a +8 dex modifier, a fighter with a +7 to str? I know the DMG says is should cap at +5 (it's on page 21, under bonuses). Input? I wonder what you guys do at your tables.
SnowbearK 01-29-05, 06:51 AM	There is no such entry. Unless you're confused about what an inherent bonus is. The dictionary definition of inherent would lend to such an interpretation of the entry on inherent bonuses however, the term as a whole represents a type of bonus, rather than a totality. In other words, if you have a 30 ability score, your ability bonus is +10, there is no limit. How you get that ability score is another matter.
Lord_Anthrax 01-29-05, 08:13 AM	IMO you should limit the inherent bonus to +5, unless you're not going to do Epic-level play, in which case you might consider allowing it to go higher. Ultimately, the question of balance only matters when you consider your balance benchmark. So long as the NPC's and encounters in your game are balanced against the PCs and their capabilities, there's no problem.
Draco Strang 01-29-05, 08:19 AM	There is no such entry. Unless you're confused about what an inherent bonus is. The dictionary definition of inherent would lend to such an interpretation of the entry on inherent bonuses however, the term as a whole represents a type of bonus, rather than a totality. In other words, if you have a 30 ability score, your ability bonus is +10, there is no limit. How you get that ability score is another matter. Ok, so I checked it out again, and you are right, it says that the inherent bonus is limited to +5, from something such as a wish spell. So, say you already have an 18 to a score, with a +4 bonus. Then, you cast an absolute buku worth of wish spells to raise your ability score to say, 30. That gives you a +6 bonus to drop onto your previous +4, for a total of +10. Is that legal or not, is what I'm asking. Sure, you can add on magic items to boost your scores as well, but I'm questioning this whole inherent thing. Clarification?
Tenzhi 01-29-05, 08:25 AM	There is no such entry, but ironically I do have a similar rule in place as part of my house rules to fix the crap that is epic.
Tenzhi 01-29-05, 08:27 AM	Ok, so I checked it out again, and you are right, it says that the inherent bonus is limited to +5, from something such as a wish spell. So, say you already have an 18 to a score, with a +4 bonus. Then, you cast an absolute buku worth of wish spells to raise your ability score to say, 30. That gives you a +6 bonus to drop onto your previous +4, for a total of +10. If your score is 18, you can only raise it to 23 with a wish spell (or similar permanent increases by magic items). In other words, a +5 inherent bonus to the score.
murte 01-29-05, 08:40 AM	But if you started off with a 18, you could raise it to 23 through normal level advancement and then use 5 wishes or tomes to take it to 28. Only way of getting to 30+ pre-epic is to start off with a score of 20 after racial modifiers or allow a non-standard abilty generation system.
Bard of DorAr 01-29-05, 09:28 AM	But if you started off with a 18, you could raise it to 23 through normal level advancement and then use 5 wishes or tomes to take it to 28. Only way of getting to 30+ pre-epic is to start off with a score of 20 after racial modifiers or allow a non-standard abilty generation system. Or take Paragon Levels.. Or Vow of Poverty.. Or (Insert Item) of (Insert Stat) +2, +4, +6... etc
PhaedrusXY 01-29-05, 10:25 AM	But if you started off with a 18, you could raise it to 23 through normal level advancement and then use 5 wishes or tomes to take it to 28. Only way of getting to 30+ pre-epic is to start off with a score of 20 after racial modifiers or allow a non-standard abilty generation system.With a max starting racial ability score of 18, the highest you can get an ability score at 20th level is 34. This isn't counting any weird prestige classes, like the racial paragons. 18 base + 5 inherent + 5 levels +6 magic item.
HailSpork 01-29-05, 08:08 PM	Well, your DM is always right, but the rules are on your side. House rules aside, there is no reason why you should be limited to a maximum bonus of +5. As mentioned before, the inherent bonus is just a modifier to the attribute, not a maximum of the attribute's bonus itself. A PC can very easily get beyond a 20; Start with a half-orc with a STR of 20. Let's say he takes 2 levels of barbarian, 4 levels of sorcerer, and 10 levels of dragon disciple. He puts 4 points into STR, making it 24. The Dragon Disciple bonus provides an additional +8. Rage provides an additional unnamed +4. Bull's strength provides an additional +4 enhancement bonus. Enlarge person is an extra +2. That puts us up to a PC with a strength of 42. On top of this, you could wish 5 times for an additional +5, take paragon levels (actually, I don't think you can if you've reached level 10 of dragon disciple), read the magic book of gaining strength (unless that provides an inherent bonus), equip an item or spell of more than +4 str, take a level of frenzied berserker for an extra +6, the level 20 point, etc. Point is, you can get very high pre-epic. Something like 56, if not higher. Only a +23 bonus and a carrying capacity of 117,760 pounds ;)
strenoth 01-30-05, 01:21 AM	The books/tomes/manuals of ability score increases are all inherent bonuses, you have to use wish or miracle to create them too.
Draco Strang 01-30-05, 12:24 PM	House rules aside, there is no reason why you should be limited to a maximum bonus of +5. As mentioned before, the inherent bonus is just a modifier to the attribute, not a maximum of the attribute's bonus itself. A PC can very easily get beyond a 20; Start with a half-orc with a STR of 20. Let's say he takes 2 levels of barbarian, 4 levels of sorcerer, and 10 levels of dragon disciple. He puts 4 points into STR, making it 24. The Dragon Disciple bonus provides an additional +8. Rage provides an additional unnamed +4. Bull's strength provides an additional +4 enhancement bonus. Enlarge person is an extra +2. That puts us up to a PC with a strength of 42. On top of this, you could wish 5 times for an additional +5, take paragon levels (actually, I don't think you can if you've reached level 10 of dragon disciple), read the magic book of gaining strength (unless that provides an inherent bonus), equip an item or spell of more than +4 str, take a level of frenzied berserker for an extra +6, the level 20 point, etc. Point is, you can get very high pre-epic. Something like 56, if not higher. Only a +23 bonus and a carrying capacity of 117,760 pounds ;) This is pretty similar to what you can do with the hulking hurler PrC if you play it smart. Sickening? Damn straight, but utterly and completely attainable by the book.