Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Melayl 01-08-07, 10:58 PM	This is my offering on a Mana/spell point casting system, based off of the Psionics PP system. The Psionics system is simple, effective, and balanced. Hopefully this Mana system will be as well. Few changes will be needed for any of the spells. Any needed changes should just fall under how they scale. The system should be easily adaptable to any new spells. Part 1: Base spell-level cost conversion Taking from the Psionics PP Cost/level: Level: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Cost 0/1 1 3 5 7 9 11 13 15 17 We multiply by 4 to convert to mana points (MP) to get: Level: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Cost: 1 4 12 20 28 36 44 52 60 68 Thus, a 1st level spell would cost 4 MP, etc. Spells no longer automatically scale. Scaling cost (per extra level of power) is: Level: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Cost: N/a 1 3 5 7 9 11 13 15 17 By this, a wiz/sorc casting Magic Missile (a 1st level spell) at 1st level would spend 4 MP. Cast at 9th level, fully scaled, he would spend 8 MP (base cost of 4 MP +1 for each of the scaled levels – 3, 5, 7, 9). Casting Fireball (a 3rd level spell), at 5th level (minimum required caster level) would cost 20 MP (for 5d6 hpd). Cast at 10th level, fully scaled, it would cost 45 MP (base cost of 20 MP +5 for each scaled level – 6, 7, 8, 9, 10) for the same wiz/sorc. How this works with the Cure Spells is a little more difficult. We either have to allow automatic scaling (since it adds only +1 or 2/level up to a certain maximum), make them spend +1/extra scaled hp (or more, depending upon the level of the Cure spell), or change the Cure spells to add extra die (d4?) rather than just extra hp and scale accordingly. My inclination would be to add extra die (d4 per d8 of the spell), but it might make the higher-level Cure spells seem redundant (unless you just add the extra base amount healed to each spell for scaling – potentially making them much more powerful). Do whatever feels right for your group. Shield of Faith (cleric 1) would cost 4 MP at 1st level for a +2 bonus. Cast at 18th level (max scaled), it would cost 7 MP (base cost 4 MP +1/scaled level). Not being completely familiar with all the spells, there may be others requiring slight modification (like the Cure spells did). I’d appreciate hearing how your group chooses to modify them. Metamagic feats simply change the spell’s cost to that of the appropriate level. For example, Empower Spell used on the above Fireball would make the Fireball’s cost that of a 5th level, rather than a 3rd level spell (including scaling costs). In theory, this could make the cost of the spell exceed that of a 9th level spell (if allowed in your game). Simply add 8 to the cost of the spell and 4 to the scaling cost for each level beyond 9. Why 4 Mana Points (MP) instead of 1? Multiple reasons. First, scaling costs seemed more reasonable to me at ¼ of the spell’s cost than the psionic equivalent. Second, it makes my changes to Specialists seem better. Third, I wanted to. Of course, to implement these changes, we need to change the base classes a bit. Part 2: Base spellcasting classes Basically, I calculated the MP/level for each class by converting total spells/day for each level into MP by the MP cost/level table. All spellcasters become spontaneous spellcasters. All spellcasters must rest for 8 hours to fully recharge their mana. You may choose to allow your spellcasters to regain a portion of their total mana if the rest for a portion of 8 hours. All spellcasters must have a primary stat score of 10 + a spell’s level to cast that spell (just like before). The equivalent Psion MP amount is listed under the Mage heading. Wizard and Sorcerer are really no longer two separate classes. They are the same class of arcane casters, merely differentiated by which stat they use. Wizards use their INT to determine bonus mana, spells known, DC, etc. Sorcerers use CHA. You can keep all that nonsense about draconic heritage for the sorcerer if you really want to… Bonus mana is equal to Stat mod times twice their level. A caster gains access to a number of 0-level spells equal to ½ their Stat mod per level (minimum 1/level). Maximum number of spells known is equal to their Stat mod per level, minimum 1/level (non-magically modified, unless they are permanent modifications). These may be chosen from any spell level the caster has access to. 0-level spells are not included in this (unless the caster wishes to learn extra 0 level spells). I suppose you could have “temporary” stat increases (i.e. items) increase the number of spells known (after 24 hours of time wearing said item AND learning the new spells), but those spells would be lost if the item was removed. (I’d probably do this for psions, too.) See the table below for maximum spell level known. I’ve included a list of the converted cost for Psions for comparison. Mages must still be taught their spells, or learn them from books or scrolls, or create them themselves. My suggestion would be that spells requiring more than 30 minutes of casting time, and all symbols, glyphs, and other such inscribed spells be designated as “book” spells. These spells are so intricate or complicated that they require a “spellbook” as a guide – they cannot be cast without being read from a book, and as such do not count against the maximum number of spells known (you must still pay the MP cost, however). If on a magic scroll, they still take the full casting time, but require no MP expenditure (the scroll is destroyed in the process, of course). Specialists: A mage may specialize in one school of magic. All spells cast from this school cost ¾ the normal amount of mana (some rounding up may be required for scaled spells). They still pick 2 prohibited schools (1 with Divination). Your DM may give you the option to cast spells from one of these schools at double (or more) the normal mana cost. Familiars: A mage now has another good reason to gain a familiar: extra mana. A familiar grants a mage extra mana equal to the mage’s Stat mod per level. If the familiar is killed, the mage immediately loses mana equal to the amount the familiar granted him, in addition to the other penalties associated with familiar death. Level Wiz/Sorc max spell Psion MP/level level known PP (MP conversion) 1 17 1st 2 (8) 2 22 1st 6 (24) 3 26 2nd 11 (44) 4 66 2nd 17 (68) 5 78 3rd 25 (100) 6 150 3rd 35 (140) 7 162 4th 46 (184) 8 286 4th 58 (232) 9 334 5th 72 (288) 10 470 5th 88 (352) 11 534 6th 106 (424) 12 702 6th 126 (504) 13 782 7th 147 (588) 14 982 7th 170 (680) 15 1078 8th 195 (780) 16 1310 8th 221 (884) 17 1422 9th 250 (1000) 18 1686 9th 280 (1120) 19 1814 9th 311 (1244) 20 1950 9th 343 (1372) Clerics still use their WIS to determine all of the important aspects of their spells. Bonus mana is equal to WIS mod times twice their level. A cleric has access to a number of 0-level spells equal to ½ of their WIS mod per level (min 1/level). Maximum number of spells known is equal to their Stat mod per level, minimum 1/level (non-magically modified, unless they are permanent modifications). These may be chosen from any spell level the caster has access to. 0-level spells are not included in this (unless the caster wishes to learn extra 0 level spells). I suppose you could have “temporary” stat increases (i.e. items) increase the number of spells known (after 24 hours of time wearing said item AND learning the new spells), but those spells would be lost if the item was removed. See the table below for maximum spell level known. (I’d probably do this for psions, too.) Clerics know 1 Domain spell per Domain per Spell level. Domain spells may only be cast with Domain MP. Domain MP can only be used to cast Domain spells. Clerics lean their spells directly from their deity, but may also learn them from other clerics or from books or scrolls. Change this as you see fit for your campaign. Level Cleric MP Max spell Domain MP per level level known per level 1 7 1st 4 2 12 1st 4 3 24 2nd 16 4 41 2nd 16 5 61 3rd 36 6 73 3rd 36 7 126 4th 64 8 174 4th 64 9 222 5th 100 10 286 5th 100 11 356 6th 144 12 434 6th 144 13 526 7th 196 14 622 7th 196 15 738 8th 256 16 850 8th 256 17 990 9th 324 18 1118 9th 324 19 1274 9th 324 20 1402 9th 324 Druids still use their WIS to determine all of the important aspects of their spells. Bonus mana is equal to WIS mod times twice their level. A druid has access to a number of 0-level spells equal to ½ of their WIS mod per level (min 1/level). Maximum number of spells known is equal to their Stat mod per level, minimum 1/level (non-magically modified, unless they are permanent modifications). These may be chosen from any spell level the caster has access to. 0-level spells are not included in this (unless the caster wishes to learn extra 0 level spells). I suppose you could have “temporary” stat increases (i.e. items) increase the number of spells known (after 24 hours of time wearing said item AND learning the new spells), but those spells would be lost if the item was removed. See the table below for maximum spell level known. (I’d probably do this for psions, too.) Level Druid MP Max spell per level level known 1 7 1st 2 12 1st 3 24 2nd 4 41 2nd 5 61 3rd 6 73 3rd 7 126 4th 8 174 4th 9 222 5th 10 286 5th 11 356 6th 12 434 6th 13 526 7th 14 622 7th 15 738 8th 16 850 8th 17 990 9th 18 1118 9th 19 1274 9th 20 1402 9th Bards still use their CHA to determine all of the important aspects of their spells. Bonus mana is equal to CHA mod times twice their level. Bards begin knowing a number of 0-level spells equal to their CHA mod (minimum 1). They gain 1 every 4 levels thereafter. Maximum number of spells known is equal to their ½ their CHA mod per level, minimum 1/level (non-magically modified, unless they are permanent modifications). These may be chosen from any spell level the caster has access to. 0-level spells are not included in this (unless the caster wishes to learn extra 0 level spells). I suppose you could have “temporary” stat increases (i.e. items) increase the number of spells known (after 24 hours of time wearing said item AND learning the new spells), but those spells would be lost if the item was removed. See the table below for maximum spell level known. Level Bard MP Max spell per level level known 1 2 0th 2 3 1st 3 7 1st 4 11 2nd 5 27 2nd 6 39 2nd 7 39 3rd 8 71 3rd 9 91 3rd 10 91 4th 11 139 4th 12 167 4th 13 167 5th 14 232 5th 15 272 5th 16 284 6th 17 348 6th 18 420 6th 19 500 6th 20 544 6th Both use WIS as their primary stat. “0” in the chart below means that they may cast and learn spells starting at that level only if they have bonus mana available at that level. Bonus mana is equal to WIS mod times twice their level. Maximum number of spells known is equal to ½ WIS mod times level (min 1/lev). Level Pally/Rang MP Pally/Rang max per level spell level known 1 -- 2 -- 3 -- 4 0 1st 5 0 6 4 7 4 8 4 2nd 9 4 10 16 11 16 3rd 12 36 13 36 14 40 4th 15 68 16 80 17 100 18 104 19 164 20 192 Part 3: Extra Options The following are some optional rules I’ve come up with. Use them if you like them, ignore them if you don’t. It is likely that they will make spellcasters somewhat more powerful (which I know many do not like). Life generates magical energy (mana). This energy flows out of every living thing and, like water, eventually gathers into streams and rivers. These are called Lines. These Lines eventually cross each other at certain points. These points are known as Nodes. Lines and Nodes occur everywhere, but they are more likely to be found in places with an abundant amount of living creatures Lines and Nodes are potent, but dangerous, sources of magical power. A caster who has reached a sufficient level of power may learn to tap these powerful resources, at certain risk to himself. See the corresponding feats. -----------Edit update------------------------------------------------------------------- It is a Full round action to Tap a Line or Node. It can be attempted as a Standard Action, but the DC increases by 3 for a Line and by 6 for a Node. If attempted as a Move Action, the DC increases by 5 for a Line and 10 for a Node (not cumulative with the Standard Action cost.) ----------------/edit--------------------------------------------------------------------- Tap Line [metamagic] Prereq: ability to cast 7th level spells For a cost of 50 mana (or 2 points of ability damage to both CON and appropriate casting Stat if out of mana) per Line per attempt, a caster may attempt to Tap a Line to gain mana. Tapping requires a successful d20 check against a DC of 30 (add caster level and Stat mod to roll -- cannot “take 10”). Success means the Line is Tapped, failure by less than 5 means you failed. Failure by 5-8 means you may not attempt to Tap that Line again until you have gained a level. Failure by >8 means you were “Burned” by the Line, and suffer 1d6 damage. The DC increases by 5 per additional Line attempted. Benefit: If you have successfully Tapped a Line, you gain mana equal to your Stat mod per round per Tapped Line, up to your maximum mana amount. You may remain Tapped for 1 min/level. You may Tap 1 Line per Stat mod (mage with 17 INT may Tap up to 3 lines). Special: If you are Tapped and take damage, you must make a successful Concentration check vs DC 30+hpd taken+5 per extra Line. Success means you are fine and remain Tapped. Failure by <10 means you suffer 1d10 hpd per Line and lose a corresponding amount of mana, but remain Tapped. Failure by 10 or more means you suffer 4d4 hpd per Line, lose a corresponding amount of mana, lose access to the Line(s) and may not Tap again for 2 hours per Line. Tap Node [metamagic] Prereq: ability to cast 9th level spells For a cost of 75 mana (or 3 points of ability damage to both CON and appropriate casting Stat if out of mana) per Node per attempt, a caster may attempt to Tap a Node do gain mana. Tapping requires a successful d20 check against a DC of 40 (add caster level and Stat mod to roll – cannot “take 10”). Success means the Node is Tapped, failure by less than 5 means you failed. Failure by 5-8 means you may not attempt to Tap that Node again until you have gained a level. Failure by >8 means you were “Burned” by the Node, and suffer1d6 damage per Line in the Node. The DC increases by 10 per additional Node or Line attempted. Benefit: If you have successfully Tapped a Node, you gain mana equal to 1½ times your Stat mod per round per Line of the node, up to your maximum mana amount. You may remain Tapped for 1 min/level. You may Tap a Node containing Lines equal to 1+1 per Stat mod (mage with 17 INT may Tap a node with up to 4 lines). Special: If you are Tapped and take damage, you must make a successful Concentration check vs DC 40+hpd taken+5 per extra Line in the Node. Success means you are fine and remain Tapped. Failure by <10 means you suffer 1d12 hpd per Line in the Node and lose a corresponding amount of mana, but remain Tapped. Failure by 10 or more means you suffer 4d6 hpd per Line in the Node, lose a corresponding amount of mana, lose access to the Node and may not Tap again for 2 hours per Line in the Node, and may not cast any spells for 1 hour per Line in the Node. Frequency of Lines and Nodes You may use this table to determine the frequency of Lines and Nodes in your campaign, or make up your own. Environment/area # of Lines Chance of Node Arctic 1d4 5% chance/Line >1 Desert 1d4 5% chance/Line >1 Forest 1d12 10% chance per Line (min 2 Lines) Jungle 2d8 10% chance per Line (min 2 Lines) Mountain 1d6 7% chance per Line (min 2 Lines) Plains/cultivated 1d10 10% chance per Line (min 2 Lines) Marsh/swamp 1d10 10% chance per Line (min 2 Lines) “Urban” 1d4/1000 pop 7% chance per Line (min 2 Lines) While Lines and Nodes are like raging rapids of boiling water, a Mana Well is like a deep, calm pool of cool water. Any caster with the appropriate feat can create one of these pools. Mana Well [metamagic] Prereq: Ability to cast 7th level spells For a one-time cost of 1000 mana and 1 month of time, you may attempt to create a permanent mana receptacle, which you may later fill and use without risk. This receptacle must be a large, heavy, immovable object, >80 cubic feet (2x2x20) in size. 75% of this must be in contact with or buried in the ground at all times. The Well is destroyed and all mana lost if the well is moved >5 feet in any direction. A well may hold maximum mana equal to twice the creator’s maximum mana at the time of creation. The mana stored in a Well is accessible to the creator and any other spellcaster within 10 feet (per individual caster level) of the Well. The creator may “lock” access to the Well by spending an additional 500 mana and 1 additional week of time at the creation of the well. Spending 12 mana and 5 minutes of time may grant or deny access to any one individual the creator chooses. Any number of people may be granted access to a Well. To be useful, the Well must be filled from a caster’s personal reserves. Transfer rate is 4 mana per minute, filled by any caster with access to the Well. A caster with access can withdraw mana equal to their Stat mod times their level per round as a standard action. Having more than 1 Well within 1 mile of each other will cause each of them to destabilize, leaking mana at a rate of 12 mp per minute. There is also a 5% chance per day (non-cumulative) of each Well failing completely and permanently. All life creates magical energy, or mana. However, not all living creatures can use the mana they create. Some have learned how to wrest this mana from those who own it. Bloodpower Ritual [metamagic] Prereq: ability to cast 1st level spells, any Evil Benefit: For a cost of 2 mana per use, you may, through ritual torture involving slashing and/or piercing tools, gain power from others. This ritual must last for ½ hour per level or Hit Die of the victim. At the end of the ritual, you gain mana equal to 1 per CON per level or Hit Die of the victim. This may temporarily exceed your maximum mana amount by ½. Excess fades after hour equal to Stat mod times 2. As an example, a 5th level Fighter with a CON of 15 would, after 2½ hours of ritual, give you 75 mana. Spellcasters grant even more mana, giving an additional amount equal to their maximum mana. Creatures with spell-like abilities also grant extra mana. This mana is equal to the level cost of the ability times the number of uses of the ability. Psi-like abilities are the same, except that you multiply the psi-like ability amount by 4. All of these extra amounts are cumulative. Dispel Magic becomes much more of a threat to spellcasters. Another option is added to the list of ways to cast the spell. If cast directly on a caster, it depletes their MP. Dispel removes mana equal to the amount spent on the spell, -12. It is scalable to every odd caster level. So, a 12th level mage casting Dispel Magic on another in combat, maxed to 12th level would remove 51 mana from his opponent (base 28, +7 at 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, and 11th, -12). I would imagine that potions and wands of Dispel Magic would be a danger to cause many a caster to sweat... -----------------Edit----------------------- see this post (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11256309&postcount=14) for an update to some rules.
Melayl 01-18-07, 05:54 PM	A :bump: and a serious request for comment and evaluation of my system, please. Are there any serious flaws? Any potentials for abuse (beyond the normal abuse of magic)? Any comments on the flavor or mechanics?
FeceMan 01-18-07, 11:45 PM	I'm really, really tired right now, but the numbers seem big. Also, the way the scaling works is kind of confusing and pain-in-the-ass bookkeeping. I like the idea, but what's wrong with spellpoints?
Melayl 01-19-07, 11:52 PM	First off, let me say that I appreciate the feedback. I look forward to hearing what you have to say after you've had a chance to sleep and re-read things. In response to your questions: The numbers are large, but I'm used to that from the other RPG I play. I know it can be kinda intimidating, but once you get used to it, it really is quite simple. But if it's not your thing, that's fine too. As for the scaling, it seemed to me that the XPH scaling was overly expensive. It made more sense to me to have the scaling cost at 1/4 of the base cost (which, of course, led to the higher overall numbers). I found the spellpoints system in UA to be complex and far from user-friendly. I know some others find it easy to use, though. (I've always been told that I'm weird..)
theotherdraxen 01-20-07, 12:38 AM	Hmm...a little long to take in all at once. However, you still have the same problem that gets addressed every time MP is brought up: high level spells are balanced (not so well) on being cast only 4 times a day for wizards. With this system (and virtually any MP system), you still have the issue of spellcasters burning the equivalent cost of lower level spells in order to cast a more powerful higher level one. The issue isn't so much the class, or the system, but with how spells work. Psionics were put on a lower level of power than spells, and thus, can be cast at higher levels without much of a chance at breaking the game.
Melayl 01-20-07, 03:22 AM	That is a problem, but I'm really not sure how to address it. It has never come up in my games, because we've never had any spellcasters get that powerful (we're a hack-and-slash group at heart). I suppose you could make some rule about how higher level spells are more difficult, and require Fatigue checks or DC rolls after a certain number. I don't really like it, but one could do it that way. Or, houserules changing the higher level spells might be in order (they do get impossibly powerful...).
Ra-Tiel 01-20-07, 07:30 AM	Very interesting approach. :D I think it's the first time I've seen the idea of augmentation cost being dependent on initial spell level. :thinks: However, I think that the problem with higher level spells being thrown around all day is not easily solved with your system. You could possibly escalate the costs, going for a squared (base cost of n^2, where n is the spell level) or even exponential increase (base cost of 2^n, where n is the spell level). But this would destroy the basic (and sort of elegant) system of spells having a base cost of 4*(spell level*2 - 1) and augmentation reading at spell level*2 - 1 per caster level. :banghead: Another idea would be to introduce some sort of "mana bleeding". The basic idea would be that a caster has not perfect controll over his magical reserves and wastes some of it with every casting, similar to a firefighter always wasting water when quenching a fire. The basic amount of bleeding could be spell level^2 or something. Additionally you could introduce some sort of "bleed resistance" that reduces that bleeding. Perhaps the caster's key ability mod? This would result in a caster loosing more MPs when casting only high-level spells, thus reducing his stamina when compared to a caster who only sometimes uses higher-level spells. Also, I get the impression that the numbers for arcanists are a bit high on first level. They start out with 17 MPs. If you consider that an 18 Int or Cha is not unheard of for the primary arcane caster, you'e looking at first level characters with 17 + 2*4 = 25 MPs which would be equal to 6 first level spells. :confused: Note that this is not necessarily bad, I'm just pointing out as it seems a little too good from my perspective. :) But nonetheless, a very interesting idea. Keep it going! :ayyyy!:
Melayl 01-20-07, 08:02 AM	Also, I get the impression that the numbers for arcanists are a bit high on first level. The arcane casters do get quite a bit of mana at lower levels. However, their mana amount is a direct translation from their spells per day in 3.5. I was kinda surprised by it, but 1st level mages tend to be hard to keep alive a the low levels anyway. Plus, some of that mana may very well get spent on some of those useful cantrips. I have thought about implementing a fatigue system for when MP gets low, but I'm not sure how I want to go about it. However, I think that the problem with higher level spells being thrown around all day is not easily solved with your system. I was just thinking to myself -- how "high level" are those spells? 5th? 7th? 9th? While they might be able to cast those spells more frequently, the lower level spells still have important usefulness. What they spend on the high spells might keep them from casting a needed lower spell. Just a thought (maybe not even a correct one -- I've been up for the past 18 hours...) And thanks for the feedback.
Ra-Tiel 01-20-07, 09:48 AM	[...] I have thought about implementing a fatigue system for when MP gets low, but I'm not sure how I want to go about it. :thinks: You could use the suggestion from the Vitalizing Spellpoint Variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm#spellPointVariantVitaliz ing) from UA. If you fall to below 50% of your MP you become fatigued, and if you drop to below 25% you become exhausted. Another idea would be to introduce CL checks against a DC of 15 + 2*spell level. Success means the spell is cast normally for the normal costs, but failure makes the caster fatigued for 1 minute per spell level and the spell costs 1.5 times as much. If the caster fails a CL check while fatigued, he becomes exhausted for 1 hour and the spell costs twice as much. I was just thinking to myself -- how "high level" are those spells? 5th? 7th? 9th? Well, there are the usual suspects that can quickly become very annoying if casters can cast them repeatedly all day: [greater] teleport (eliminates any travel/distance based events and plots) finger of death (THE anti-climactic spell) timestop (takes away the element of surprise and opens novas) wail of the banshee (like finger of death, but worse) gate (for 1k XPs you can utterly devestate any encounter of up to 4 CRs above the average party level) shapechange (makes any melee combatants/tanks obsolete) horrid wilting (imho best direct damage effekt: untyped damage, Fort save half -> no evasion, insane range and area, targettable) [limited] wish/miracle various power words and symbols polymorph any object (either instant money, or instant death for enemies) reverse gravity/forcecage (mostly because neither allows a save to escape) legend lore (what secrets?) ... And that's just out of the SRD. While they might be able to cast those spells more frequently, the lower level spells still have important usefulness. What they spend on the high spells might keep them from casting a needed lower spell. [...] The problem is that not all high-level spells need to be fully augmented. For example shapechange, gate, or [limited] wish are pretty much independent from the caster's CL. A 34 HD balor will break a CR20 encounter just as easy as a 40HD balor, and causing an ally to automatically hit with his next attack is just 300XPs away. Therfore my idea with "mana bleeding". It would more or less force a caster to go conservatively with his high-level spells and use them only when really necessary, and not spam them all day just because he can. If the wizard/cleric wants to cast his level 7+ spells all day he surely can, but he will find that his MP reserves are running dry extremely quickly because of the bleeding. Also, not all low/mid level spells remain a viable choice when the caster has basically no limit on how often he can cast a higher level spell. For example, teleport has a max range of 2k miles at CL20, while greater teleport has no limit at all. A max augmented teleport costs 36 + 11*9 = 135 MPs, while a basic unaugmented greater teleport costs merely 52 MPs. The higher level spell is not only quite a bit cheaper, but also has the better performance. --------------- Edit: --------------- What just struck me is that you (supposedly unintentional) crippled direct damage. All "save-or-die" effects (finger of death, wail of the banshee, wierd, flesh to stone, ...) do not need to be augmented at all, because neither the effect itself (death) nor the save is dependent on the CL. However, all direct damage spells that deal 1dX/CL or 1dY/2CL now must be augmented to insane costs to remain effective. Polar ray (lvl 8) vs finger of death (lvl 7) Unaugmented polar ray: 15d6 energy damage (cold), 60ft, no save, costs: 60. finger of death: instant death, 55ft, Fort partial (3d6+15), costs: 52. Augmented for max polar ray: 20d6 energy damage (cold), 75ft, no save, costs: 60 + 5*15 = 135. finger of death: instant death, 75ft, Fort partial (3d6+20), costs: 52 + 7*13 = 143. As you can see, finger of death gets close to zero gain from augmenting, as only range and the partial save damage increases a little. Therefore, not only is it cheaper than polar ray, but also much more effective as forcing an opponent to succeed on a save or die is much more advantageous than to blast through hundrets of HPs.
Melayl 01-20-07, 04:37 PM	Thank you for your excellent and informative feedback. :thinks: You could use the suggestion from the Vitalizing Spellpoint Variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm#spellPointVariantVitaliz ing) from UA. If you fall to below 50% of your MP you become fatigued, and if you drop to below 25% you become exhausted. Another idea would be to introduce CL checks against a DC of 15 + 2*spell level. Success means the spell is cast normally for the normal costs, but failure makes the caster fatigued for 1 minute per spell level and the spell costs 1.5 times as much. If the caster fails a CL check while fatigued, he becomes exhausted for 1 hour and the spell costs twice as much. I like both of these ideas, and may implement both of them, although I'll probably change the fatigue to less than 25% and exhausted to 0% : Well, there are the usual suspects that can quickly become very annoying if casters can cast them repeatedly all day: [greater] teleport (eliminates any travel/distance based events and plots) finger of death (THE anti-climactic spell) timestop (takes away the element of surprise and opens novas) wail of the banshee (like finger of death, but worse) gate (for 1k XPs you can utterly devestate any encounter of up to 4 CRs above the average party level) shapechange (makes any melee combatants/tanks obsolete) horrid wilting (imho best direct damage effekt: untyped damage, Fort save half -> no evasion, insane range and area, targettable) [limited] wish/miracle various power words and symbols polymorph any object (either instant money, or instant death for enemies) reverse gravity/forcecage (mostly because neither allows a save to escape) legend lore (what secrets?) ... And that's just out of the SRD. Ahh... Ok. Yeah, those could quickly become annoying... I never have liked the save-or-die effects... : Therfore my idea with "mana bleeding". It would more or less force a caster to go conservatively with his high-level spells and use them only when really necessary, and not spam them all day just because he can. If the wizard/cleric wants to cast his level 7+ spells all day he surely can, but he will find that his MP reserves are running dry extremely quickly because of the bleeding. The mana bleed is an interesting idea, but I'm not sure that I like it as you have it written. Let me think about that one for awhile -- some version of that may be seen. : What just struck me is that you (supposedly unintentional) crippled direct damage. All "save-or-die" effects (finger of death, wail of the banshee, wierd, flesh to stone, ...) do not need to be augmented at all, because neither the effect itself (death) nor the save is dependent on the CL. However, all direct damage spells that deal 1dX/CL or 1dY/2CL now must be augmented to insane costs to remain effective. Huh. I hadn't noticed that before (and thank you for telling me). I'm not really sure how to fix that either. I normally don't like the save-or-die effects, so rarely use them, but I'll need to look that over more. Any suggestions on how I may fix it?
Magrus 01-22-07, 01:34 AM	This is a lot to absorb, and I shudder when thinking of trying to break down the spells per day, including caster level scaling, and bonus MP for high attribute and all at this hour after working today. Instead, I shall try out a very simple comparison. The UA spellpoint system is well...has anyone ever done the math in trying to cast the basic 4/ spell level/day allotment of spells with a 20 level wizard who has just enough Int to cast 9th level spells at 19 Int? You need a bare minimum of 324 SP in order to cast the spells, without scaling say, your magic missiles beyond 1st CL, and fireball beyond 5th CL, to reach the full allottment of 20th level wizard spells in the traditional system. A wizard with a 19 Int and access to 9th level spells gets how many SP? 250. Meaning, if you were to cast from 1st level up, all in a row, you would drop all of your 9th level spells, and two 2nd level spells. That's before scaling of CL. :rolleyes: YOUR system, and may I say, bless you sir for doing it in a simple manner, even if ending up with huge numbers. :P Your system, allows a 20th level wizard to cast all of his spells per day, with a large number of spell points left over to allow for scaling, without bonus MP being added in. I like this system better already. However, this will entail me needing to create a 20th level wizard and seeing if I can cast all of my fireballs, MM, Cones of Cold, etc at full CL scaling and see if it works out to be balanced. *shudders* As a note, I think I will be using the ley lines in my new campaign, as well as this new system to try it out. I have a BBEG planned to be a wizard creating a new race as the end encounter for the campaign. Having him set up over a line would work with the plot, and allow for me to have fun being an evil DM that blasts stuff. I don't think I will use the Bloodpower Ritual feat with him though. The crazyness that could ensue with a 15th level wizard tapped into a line while torturing a 10th level wizard prisoner could be sick. You may want to consider that and put some form of balancing measure in there. Not to mention, my putting a well in the cave I plan on using with the line. Combining the three, my BBEG could lay waste to a mountain range. Which reminds me, the cost to create the well, that's not a permanent cost, right? It is just an expendature of MP for the time being? If it IS permanent, I would suggest making it a portable bag of MP holding type thing that stays with the caster. If I spent 85% of my MP as a 15th level wizard on a pool and would never get it back, I would want that pool safeguarded like you wouldn't believe. As far as the balancing issue of spamming say... 28 9th level spells in rapid succession at 20th level (it's possible without adding bonus for high Int/Cha bonus in your system)....something similar to the rules in the Dragonlance system for the Curse of the Magi might work. How about making a Fort Save of some sort after casting spells above 7th level, scaled by spell level. If you save, you can keep spamming. With a +X to the DC for each consecutive time you cast a spell above 7th level in a row. If you fail, you take HP damage equal to the spell level, and are fatigued. Fatigued goes to Exhausted, Exhausted to Unconscious. Balancing isn't my thing, so someone else would have to come up with the DC's I think. However, this would make it so that your archmage can't spam Horrid Wiltings, Meteor Storms and the like without risking passing out in the middle of battle. Not to mention, the three failed checks after popping off 3 successive 9th level spells would include a -27 to HP as well as crumpling to the floor. That's enough to put the fear into any caster. Will repost when I get more info on how this works on my campaign, if not beforehand. I will be starting it in about 2-3 weeks, so if there is a long delay, this would be why.
Melayl 01-22-07, 12:04 PM	First let me say thank you for the input, and I'm glad you like it. :) I look forward to hearing your full caster review, and to how your new adventure goes. I don't think I will use the Bloodpower Ritual feat with him though. The crazyness that could ensue with a 15th level wizard tapped into a line while torturing a 10th level wizard prisoner could be sick. You may want to consider that and put some form of balancing measure in there. Not to mention, my putting a well in the cave I plan on using with the line. Combining the three, my BBEG could lay waste to a mountain range. Well, technically, he couldn't remain tapped (for long) while torturing the 10th level wiz. You may only remain tapped for minutes = level, and Bloodpower requires 1/2 hour per level of victim (5 hours for your 10th level wizard). Also, you don't gain the mana for the ritual until AFTER the ritual is completed -- you lose it if the ritual is interrupted (or you can choose to let them keep the fraction they have gained -- possibly leading to many prolonged sessions for that poor 10th level wizard...) As for the Well, it is a one-time cost, rather than a permanent reduction. I'd probably half the cost if it were permanent, but I still wouldn't make it portable. After all, you basically end up with 3x your mana for that cost, even if you can't use the extra when you're away from the Well. I have to go for the moment, but I'll try to take a look at all the options presented for preventing high level overkill and post them today.
Magrus 01-22-07, 01:10 PM	You're welcome. The torture bonus could still be gained, and THEN a line or node tapped afterwards though, yes? As in a ritual type setting that occurs over a line? As far as the well, I would suggest a enhancement that can be placed on it then. Something allowing those linked to it, each having to pay the cost for the enhancement, to channel MP from the pool at a distance. Perhaps a multiplier to the cost based on distance? Standard if the pool is within sight. x2 if within 1 mile, x3 if within 10 miles, x4 if within 100 miles, etc. It would end up more useful for those who want it, and allow for adventuring outside of a home base when using these pools. Hmm, I am making a lower level NPC to fill in with my players characters in the game I plan on running. I decided to do a gestalt game, and the NPC I am creating will be a wiz/sorc. Given your rules on merging the two, I couldn't test this out very well, as that would just be broken I think. Perhaps I should redo my character concept so I can try this out. Rather than waiting until the end of the campaign to see how the BBEG wizard I plan on using ends up with testing it out on him. I will have to think it over. Perhaps I shall try out a ninja/mage build and see what kind of fun stuff I can do. Or, a Mage/Psion could be interesting. Unless I try one side as the standard spell point system, and the other as yours? It would be complex, but it could show me if one is stronger than the other quite fast. :confused:
Melayl 01-22-07, 02:20 PM	You're welcome. The torture bonus could still be gained, and THEN a line or node tapped afterwards though, yes? As in a ritual type setting that occurs over a line? Yes, you could do the BP ritual first, and then tap the line or node. The ritual need not take place over a line or node, though. As far as the well, I would suggest a enhancement that can be placed on it then. Something allowing those linked to it, each having to pay the cost for the enhancement, to channel MP from the pool at a distance. Perhaps a multiplier to the cost based on distance? Standard if the pool is within sight. x2 if within 1 mile, x3 if within 10 miles, x4 if within 100 miles, etc. It would end up more useful for those who want it, and allow for adventuring outside of a home base when using these pools. Now that is a good idea. Hmmm. Why don't we try this: Part 1 You may not be tapped into both a Well and a Line/Node at the same time. The magical resonance created violently destabilizes both the Well and the Line/Node. The unfortunate caster automatically suffers the full effect of "failure by 10 or more", listed under "Special" for Lines/Nodes. Those within 10' of the caster suffer the "failure by < 10" listed under "Special". In addition, the Well violently fails, exploding and causing 1d6 points of damage per 10 mana in the well to all within 100' of the Well. Part 2 Those with access to a Well may, for an additional per-use cost, draw mana from that Well at a greater distance. For a cost of 4 mana each use (a move-equivalent action), the caster may access a Well when he is outside the 10' per caster level range. Transporting mana accross a distance is costly, however. Within 1 mile of the Well, you "burn off" mana equal to the amount you withdraw (draw 34 mana, lose a total of 68 mana from the Well). Within 10 miles of the Well, you lose mana equal to twice what you withdraw (draw 34, lose 102 mana total from the Well). Within 50 miles, this lose changes to 3x the amount drawn. Within 100 miles, it becomes 4x the amount drawn. It is not possible to access a Well outside the 100 mile range. How does that sound? While I'm at it, let's make an official update to Bloodpower: If you intentionally stop the ritual before it is fully completed, you retain mana equal to 1/2 what had been accrued up to that point. For example, if you are perfoming the ritual on a 12th level Fighter with a CON of 20 (a 6 hour ritual), and stop after 3 hours, you would have accrued 120 mana (12x20, divided by 2). You would then get to keep 60 mana (half of what had accrued). The Fighter in question would still be alive, but effectively at 1/2 CON and 1/2 HP until healed (since the ritual was 1/2 done). If the ritual is interruped, you retain only 1/4 of what you had accrued (30 mana, using the same scenario). Now, how about that High-level spell spam issue... What do you think of this solution: Casting spells becomes more difficult, and more dangerous, at higher spell levels. This is not a problem if you only cast one every so often. However, if spells at 7th level or higher are cast within 2 rounds of each other, there is a risk. The first such spell cast contains no risk to the caster. If the caster uses another such spell within 2 rounds of the first (before the 4th round, if cast the first round), he must make a check. The DC is equal to 10 + spell level + 2 per high level spell cast within the time frame. If Bobo the 18th level Wizard casts a 7th level spell his first round of combat, and then casts another in his second round, and then waits a round and casts an 8th level spell, the DC's would be as follows: None for the 1st 7th level spell, 19 for the 2nd, and 22 for the 8th. A failed DC causes the caster to lose mana equal to twice the spell level (14 for a 7th level spell), and take damage equal to the spell's level, and become Fatigued. If already Fatigued, he becomes exhausted. If Exhausted, he becomes Unconsious and may not cast any spell above 1st level for 1 hour, gaining access to another spell level every hour thereafter. Does that mitigate the problem somewhat? Hmm, I am making a lower level NPC to fill in with my players characters in the game I plan on running. I decided to do a gestalt game, and the NPC I am creating will be a wiz/sorc. Given your rules on merging the two, I couldn't test this out very well, as that would just be broken I think. Perhaps I should redo my character concept so I can try this out. Rather than waiting until the end of the campaign to see how the BBEG wizard I plan on using ends up with testing it out on him. I will have to think it over. Perhaps I shall try out a ninja/mage build and see what kind of fun stuff I can do. Or, a Mage/Psion could be interesting. Unless I try one side as the standard spell point system, and the other as yours? It would be complex, but it could show me if one is stronger than the other quite fast. :confused: Sounds interesting. Let me know what you come up with. Incidentally, it should be easy to convert any other spellcasting class to this system. If they are a Full caster, use the spells know progression of wizard/sorcerer/cleric/druid. If a partial caster, use the bard/ranger/paladin progression. You do need to do some math to convert spells per level per day to the mana system, but it really isn't that difficult.
Magrus 01-23-07, 03:55 PM	Just a note: I made a character (Gestalt Fighter 5//Mage 2/Elf Paragon 3), and I tested out comparing spells per day with a wizard of 4th level with 18 Int, and your mage varient with 4th level (2 from Mage and +2 from Elf Paragon) and 18 Int. Here's what I found: If I cast 3 2nd level spells scaled to 4th level caster level, 5 1st level spells scaled to 4th, and 4 0 level spells I end up with 5 MP left over. This is exactly the allotment of spells a wizard, non specialized, would have with their bonus spells from high Int. So, this is enough to allow me to cast an extra 1st and 0 level spell per day. Not too far off I have to say. An extra 1st level spell at 1st Caster level isn't that powerful by the time you reach ECL 5 either. I haven't had time to go over your last post in detail yet, but I will eventually. Just wanted to pop in to report that it doesn't seem too far off yet with my quick testing of how I made my character.
Melayl 01-25-07, 10:49 AM	Good to hear. I was hoping it would. I don't have time to evaluate more right now.
Melayl 05-27-07, 01:45 PM	After reading a few other spell-point proposals and their responses, I've changed the suggestion for preventing High-level spell spam. For spells 6th level and higher: you must wait a number of rounds equal to the spell's level before casting that spell again, or the spell automatically fails and you waste a number of MP equal to 1/2 the spell's cost. i.e. say a Wiz castsPrismatic Spray, a 7th level spell. He must wait 7 turns before he casts that spell again. He can, however, cast Blindness, another 7th level spell, on his next turn. Is this a functional way to prevent spam of troublesome high-level spells? Should it be extended to all spell levels?
Ra-Tiel 05-27-07, 01:55 PM	How about introducing a general "cool down" for all spell levels, similar to the Recharge Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/rechargeMagic.htm) variant? A delay of 5 rounds plus 1 round per spell level minus the caster's key ability modifier seems workable to me. :thinks:
Melayl 05-27-07, 02:19 PM	It sounds relatively workable to me. I'm assuming that it's the recharge for that particular spell (say, magic missile), not all spells of that level (1st) (could tend to be fatal for low-level casters otherwise).
Ra-Tiel 05-27-07, 02:58 PM	It sounds relatively workable to me. I'm assuming that it's the recharge for that particular spell (say, magic missile), not all spells of that level (1st) (could tend to be fatal for low-level casters otherwise). Depends. Tracking the cooldown for all spells could become quite tendious at times. And I agree that it is somewhat harsh to low-level characters if it was for all spells of a given level. However, assuming a 16 int/wis/cha, a 1st level spell would have a delay of 3 rounds. Alternatively, you could also use 15 + 2*spell's level - key ability score, minimum 1 round. That seems to produce reasonable numbers, too. However, it would need severe play testing...
Melayl 08-27-07, 04:24 PM	:bump: for further review/comments.
Movanic 09-28-07, 01:59 PM	Just throwing an idea : Begining at 5th level spells and up, the caster suffers an amount of non-leathal damage equal to twice the spell's level minus his highest known spell level x d8. SpL - HSpLK - Damage 5 - 5d8 6 4d8 7 3d8 8 2d8 9 1d8 6 - 6d8 7 5d8 8 4d8 9 3d8 7 - 7d8 8 6d8 9 5d8 8 - 8d8 9 7d8 9 - 9d8 Spl: Spell Level, HSpLK: Highest Spell Level Known If this is to harsh, one could reduce it to d6, d4 or simply halve the # of die rolled. Since this is "mana-use" damage, undead and other creatures normally immune to non-leathal damage are not immune to it (as they would normally be) but suffer only half the regular damage - this really brings home the point that immortal beings, are more powerful! Regenerating creatures could... suffer as if it were normal damage that can't kill them? This could stop them from spamming their 9th levels...
Melayl 09-29-07, 08:38 PM	That might work, but non-lethal damage can be pretty easily healed at the higher levels. I did have another idea the other day, however. For each 7th level spell cast causes the caster 1 point of Constitution Burn. Each 8th level spell causes 2 points of Con Burn. Each 9th level spell causes 3 points of Con Burn. This does not apply to spells that occupy a higher level slot due to metamagic feats. For example, if a 5th level spell is affected by 1 or more metamagic feats and occupies a 7th level spell slot because of it, the caster does not incur the 1 point of Con Burn. If a 7th level spell is metamagic'd to occupy a 9th level spell slot, the caster only incurs 1 point of Con Burn, not 3. Is this explained clearly enough? What do you think of the idea?
Melayl 01-17-08, 10:32 AM	:bump: