Mental Abilities [Archive] - Wizards Community

Mental Abilities [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
2y1y1z2
10-30-05, 01:29 AM Why are Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma even stats? Sure it looks good to have that 18 Intelligence, but unless you have a 180 I.Q. (highly unlikely) you won't be able to think of the kind of solutions that a person of that Intellect could think of. If you just plain suck at talking, your 20 Charisma rogue should never get that cute barmaid's attention. Is there any real reason for these stats other than the purpose of seeming "more complete"?
Tyler Do'Urden
10-30-05, 01:06 AM Well is there any reason for Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution to be separate stats? I mean, Weapon Finesse lets you swap Dex for Strength on attack rolls, and high Str and high Con both essentially mean being really tough.

It's completely arbitrary. You can have as many or as few stats as you like. I've seen games with as many as twelve and as few as two, all perfectly playable. It's a personal preference thing. I mean, using a number between 1 and 20 to describe what a person is capable of can't help but be arbitrary.
FlameLover
10-30-05, 02:34 AM Tyler I think the OP is questioning having mental stats at all, not just why that seperation. If what i suspect is true then you've already answered yourself - when someone with only a ~100 IQ wants to play the intelligent, scholarly type they can. I mean if the point of the game was to just play yourself you might as well go out and play a modified version of LARP.

I mean that's like saying why have Strength when if the player wants to play someone strong they have to be themselves. It just doesn't fit the idea of D&D - you get to play someone else. I mean most people have atleast one mental stat at average or below (myself obviously included, dunno 'bout Tyler ;) ) but so what? If i want to play a smart, witty, charming and perceptive guy should i be told "sorry, you ain't any of the above"?
Gilean
10-30-05, 02:57 AM I agree with Flamelover.
Your correlation of IQ and intelligence is wrong, BTW. 1/216 of all people have 18 int. 1/72 have 17. 1/54 have 17 or 18 int. It is not rare. And these numbers don't take into account stat increases from levelling.
Tyler Do'Urden
10-30-05, 04:13 PM I mean most people have atleast one mental stat at average or below (myself obviously included, dunno 'bout Tyler ;) ) but so what?

Hey, there's this thing sticking out of my back. It looks like it could be a handle of some kind but I'm not really sure. Would you mind twisting it a little more?
Gworraent
10-30-05, 04:49 PM basically your saying that if you dont have those stats in real life you shouldnt be that good at it in the game. the whole point of dnd is to shed reality and enter a fantasy world where klutz's have +15 on sleight of hand checks and kids with stutters and lisps are amazing at diplomacy! i doubt that you'd like the stats that you'd get if we scutinized over you
Cymraegmorgan
10-30-05, 04:57 PM That is why the mental stats give you bonuses on Knowledge checks and the like. Those checks represent the character figuring out things my sad little brain could never get a handle on.
2y1y1z2
11-02-05, 12:41 PM Whoa. I just got blasted. Ok. Let me try to explain.

I'm not saying that someone who doesn't have an I.Q. of 180 shouldn't be allowed to play an 18 Int character. I'm not saying that someone with 3rd degree burns all over his face can't play an 18 Cha character. I don't discriminate in my games and you can put whatever number you roll into whatever stat you want. All I'm saying is that when it comes to the mental ability scores, it's hard for someone who has completely average intelligence to play and 18 Int character. The reactions of people with different intellects are different. It's easier for someone to imagine what a stronger/faster/tougher person would do in any given situation rather than attempting to imagine what a smarter/wiser/more charismatic person would do. I'm not proposing some sort of intellectual elitism, I'm just inquiring what Intelligence or Charisma or Wisdom have to do with spellcasting.

I was going to propose a Magic stat (or something to that effect) to represent a character's ability with magic. It wasn't my intention to spark a riot.
Ian Delor
11-02-05, 01:16 PM The basic game rules give you a way to use those mental stats in a manner that helps you play your extra-intelligent character. Knowledge checks can tell you all you could ever want to know about a monster in a given encounter. In the campaign I DM, the wizard makes knowledge arcana checks at +20 or so. According to the PHB, that means he knows a heck of a lot about most creatures that fall under the knowledge arcana category (dragons, magical beasts, etc.). The player doesn't have to know everything about the creature being fought for the character to know it. The way we play it is, if the character makes the knowledge check, I'll read the monster description to the players, with the assumption being the wizard character tells the party as a free action during the turn when he made the knowledge check.

Other things a DM can do to help a less-than-genius player play a genius character is let the other players offer suggestions from time to time, if the not-so-smart player is having trouble, or the DM could even offer advice him- or herself. Help the players role-play their characters. That's a bit part of the fun. If a player makes his or her character move through threatened squares that would provoke attacks of opportunity, I often ask my players if they are aware of that. I know some of you DMs out there would never do that, but I'm trying to take into consideration that, as the original poster noted, it's hard sometimes to put yourself into the boots of a dwarven warrior in full plate when you've been in a suit behind a desk all day (or whatever you may do during the daytime hours).

If you have a really tongue-tied or otherwise less-than-charismatic player playing a character with a high charisma score, maybe making him or her roleplay every conversation isn't a good idea. There are more than enough skills that use that charisma modifier to help determine the outcome of conversation. Feel free to use them. Have the player tell you what he wants to communicate in the conversation, then have him explain how he wants to come across. Then have him make the appropriate ability check (bluff, diplomacy, intimidation, etc.).

Bottom line is, there are ways for those stats to be played. You just have to be creative.
2y1y1z2
11-02-05, 02:24 PM Thank you Ian, for offering something more than criticism.
Millennium
11-02-05, 05:40 PM Why are Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma even stats? Sure it looks good to have that 18 Intelligence, but unless you have a 180 I.Q. (highly unlikely) you won't be able to think of the kind of solutions that a person of that Intellect could think of. If you just plain suck at talking, your 20 Charisma rogue should never get that cute barmaid's attention. Is there any real reason for these stats other than the purpose of seeming "more complete"?
You already stated the reason. The stats exist so that a character can be better than the player at the things you've mentioned. It requires a die roll, but so what? The point of RPGs is that characters can do things which the players never could. If everything were role-play based, you wouldn't have a game; you'd have reality.

We all know that roll-playing is not always good, but we often forget the reverse: role-playing isn't always good either. Stats exist as an attempt to strike a balance between the two.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
2y1y1z2 10-30-05, 01:29 AM	Why are Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma even stats? Sure it looks good to have that 18 Intelligence, but unless you have a 180 I.Q. (highly unlikely) you won't be able to think of the kind of solutions that a person of that Intellect could think of. If you just plain suck at talking, your 20 Charisma rogue should never get that cute barmaid's attention. Is there any real reason for these stats other than the purpose of seeming "more complete"?
Tyler Do'Urden 10-30-05, 01:06 AM	Well is there any reason for Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution to be separate stats? I mean, Weapon Finesse lets you swap Dex for Strength on attack rolls, and high Str and high Con both essentially mean being really tough. It's completely arbitrary. You can have as many or as few stats as you like. I've seen games with as many as twelve and as few as two, all perfectly playable. It's a personal preference thing. I mean, using a number between 1 and 20 to describe what a person is capable of can't help but be arbitrary.
FlameLover 10-30-05, 02:34 AM	Tyler I think the OP is questioning having mental stats at all, not just why that seperation. If what i suspect is true then you've already answered yourself - when someone with only a ~100 IQ wants to play the intelligent, scholarly type they can. I mean if the point of the game was to just play yourself you might as well go out and play a modified version of LARP. I mean that's like saying why have Strength when if the player wants to play someone strong they have to be themselves. It just doesn't fit the idea of D&D - you get to play someone else. I mean most people have atleast one mental stat at average or below (myself obviously included, dunno 'bout Tyler ;) ) but so what? If i want to play a smart, witty, charming and perceptive guy should i be told "sorry, you ain't any of the above"?
Gilean 10-30-05, 02:57 AM	I agree with Flamelover. Your correlation of IQ and intelligence is wrong, BTW. 1/216 of all people have 18 int. 1/72 have 17. 1/54 have 17 or 18 int. It is not rare. And these numbers don't take into account stat increases from levelling.
Tyler Do'Urden 10-30-05, 04:13 PM	I mean most people have atleast one mental stat at average or below (myself obviously included, dunno 'bout Tyler ;) ) but so what? Hey, there's this thing sticking out of my back. It looks like it could be a handle of some kind but I'm not really sure. Would you mind twisting it a little more?
Gworraent 10-30-05, 04:49 PM	basically your saying that if you dont have those stats in real life you shouldnt be that good at it in the game. the whole point of dnd is to shed reality and enter a fantasy world where klutz's have +15 on sleight of hand checks and kids with stutters and lisps are amazing at diplomacy! i doubt that you'd like the stats that you'd get if we scutinized over you
Cymraegmorgan 10-30-05, 04:57 PM	That is why the mental stats give you bonuses on Knowledge checks and the like. Those checks represent the character figuring out things my sad little brain could never get a handle on.
2y1y1z2 11-02-05, 12:41 PM	Whoa. I just got blasted. Ok. Let me try to explain. I'm not saying that someone who doesn't have an I.Q. of 180 shouldn't be allowed to play an 18 Int character. I'm not saying that someone with 3rd degree burns all over his face can't play an 18 Cha character. I don't discriminate in my games and you can put whatever number you roll into whatever stat you want. All I'm saying is that when it comes to the mental ability scores, it's hard for someone who has completely average intelligence to play and 18 Int character. The reactions of people with different intellects are different. It's easier for someone to imagine what a stronger/faster/tougher person would do in any given situation rather than attempting to imagine what a smarter/wiser/more charismatic person would do. I'm not proposing some sort of intellectual elitism, I'm just inquiring what Intelligence or Charisma or Wisdom have to do with spellcasting. I was going to propose a Magic stat (or something to that effect) to represent a character's ability with magic. It wasn't my intention to spark a riot.
Ian Delor 11-02-05, 01:16 PM	The basic game rules give you a way to use those mental stats in a manner that helps you play your extra-intelligent character. Knowledge checks can tell you all you could ever want to know about a monster in a given encounter. In the campaign I DM, the wizard makes knowledge arcana checks at +20 or so. According to the PHB, that means he knows a heck of a lot about most creatures that fall under the knowledge arcana category (dragons, magical beasts, etc.). The player doesn't have to know everything about the creature being fought for the character to know it. The way we play it is, if the character makes the knowledge check, I'll read the monster description to the players, with the assumption being the wizard character tells the party as a free action during the turn when he made the knowledge check. Other things a DM can do to help a less-than-genius player play a genius character is let the other players offer suggestions from time to time, if the not-so-smart player is having trouble, or the DM could even offer advice him- or herself. Help the players role-play their characters. That's a bit part of the fun. If a player makes his or her character move through threatened squares that would provoke attacks of opportunity, I often ask my players if they are aware of that. I know some of you DMs out there would never do that, but I'm trying to take into consideration that, as the original poster noted, it's hard sometimes to put yourself into the boots of a dwarven warrior in full plate when you've been in a suit behind a desk all day (or whatever you may do during the daytime hours). If you have a really tongue-tied or otherwise less-than-charismatic player playing a character with a high charisma score, maybe making him or her roleplay every conversation isn't a good idea. There are more than enough skills that use that charisma modifier to help determine the outcome of conversation. Feel free to use them. Have the player tell you what he wants to communicate in the conversation, then have him explain how he wants to come across. Then have him make the appropriate ability check (bluff, diplomacy, intimidation, etc.). Bottom line is, there are ways for those stats to be played. You just have to be creative.
2y1y1z2 11-02-05, 02:24 PM	Thank you Ian, for offering something more than criticism.
Millennium 11-02-05, 05:40 PM	Why are Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma even stats? Sure it looks good to have that 18 Intelligence, but unless you have a 180 I.Q. (highly unlikely) you won't be able to think of the kind of solutions that a person of that Intellect could think of. If you just plain suck at talking, your 20 Charisma rogue should never get that cute barmaid's attention. Is there any real reason for these stats other than the purpose of seeming "more complete"? You already stated the reason. The stats exist so that a character can be better than the player at the things you've mentioned. It requires a die roll, but so what? The point of RPGs is that characters can do things which the players never could. If everything were role-play based, you wouldn't have a game; you'd have reality. We all know that roll-playing is not always good, but we often forget the reverse: role-playing isn't always good either. Stats exist as an attempt to strike a balance between the two.