Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Edymnion 01-13-07, 12:34 PM	As someone that has been playing Green Ronin's "Mutants & Masterminds 2e" for about a year now, I've come to love how streamlined and flexible their core system is (honestly, it blows D&D's mechanics out of the water). As such, for a while now I've been wanting to mix those rules with D&D. And while M&M2e is completely capable of replicating the gameplay of D&D, it does end up with a lot of rules that would only be applicable to magic (M&M is a superhero based game, hence it has a large section of powers that just wouldn't be appropriate for "normal" D&D characters). Anyway, a better answer may be to import certain aspects of the system over into the D&D system, and just going from there, and I would like some opinions on what I'm thinking of adopting as houserules for my future D&D games. Minor Changes (most likely to be done) Combine Spot and Listen into a single Notice check. Combine Hide and Move Silent into a single Stealth check. Combine Disable Device and Open Lock into a single Disable Device check. Now, obviously, this is going to be a huge boon to a single class, Rogues, although it will help out other classes as well. Do we think that it would be enough to push rogues over the top, and require me to perhaps lower their skillpoints per level? But then, that would overly punish rogues that never take ranks in stealth skills and taking things apart. Major Changes (unlikely to be done) The biggest fundamental change that M&M made was to do away with hitpoints entirely, and introduce a fourth save, Toughness. It turns all damage into set numbers instead of random that become part of the Toughness save DC. For example, your default attack would force a save of DC 15+Damage Done. Someone attacking with a dagger would be doing +1 damage, meaning the opponent would have to make a Toughness Save, DC 16. If you make the save, nothing happens. If you fail by more than 5, and you are Injured, meaning you pretty much take a -1 to everything you do, including future saves. Injuries are cumulative. If you fail a save by 10 or more, you are unconcious/dying. Armor stops giving you AC, and instead gives you a bonus to your Toughness save (as it no longer represents avoiding attacks altogether, but making it easier for you to withstand the attacks that do hit). Now, the main drawback to this is that, obviously, it makes bigger weapons more important, as the weak ones are unlikely to actually do any damage. But, this is already the case in D&D, as someone with a dagger is far less likely to kill an opponent as someone with a greatsword. It would also mean going through and replacing the hitdice of all classes with set Toughness bonuses, as well as rebuilding the weapons and armor. Obviously a *MAJOR* change in the fundamental way the game is played.
Ra-Tiel 01-13-07, 02:11 PM	[...] Minor Changes (most likely to be done) Combine Spot and Listen into a single Notice check. Combine Hide and Move Silent into a single Stealth check. Combine Disable Device and Open Lock into a single Disable Device check. Now, obviously, this is going to be a huge boon to a single class, Rogues, although it will help out other classes as well. Do we think that it would be enough to push rogues over the top, and require me to perhaps lower their skillpoints per level? But then, that would overly punish rogues that never take ranks in stealth skills and taking things apart. Well, I wouldn't call that revolutionary to begin with. I personally highly oppose the idea of any skill based perception as it allows PCs to improve their senses to almost superhuman capabilities. However, as of now I still haven't found a workable ability based perception system. Major Changes (unlikely to be done) The biggest fundamental change that M&M made was to do away with hitpoints entirely, and introduce a fourth save, Toughness. It turns all damage into set numbers instead of random that become part of the Toughness save DC. For example, your default attack would force a save of DC 15+Damage Done. Someone attacking with a dagger would be doing +1 damage, meaning the opponent would have to make a Toughness Save, DC 16. If you make the save, nothing happens. If you fail by more than 5, and you are Injured, meaning you pretty much take a -1 to everything you do, including future saves. Injuries are cumulative. If you fail a save by 10 or more, you are unconcious/dying. Armor stops giving you AC, and instead gives you a bonus to your Toughness save (as it no longer represents avoiding attacks altogether, but making it easier for you to withstand the attacks that do hit). Now, the main drawback to this is that, obviously, it makes bigger weapons more important, as the weak ones are unlikely to actually do any damage. But, this is already the case in D&D, as someone with a dagger is far less likely to kill an opponent as someone with a greatsword. It would also mean going through and replacing the hitdice of all classes with set Toughness bonuses, as well as rebuilding the weapons and armor. [...] That's also familiar. SSS's "Advanced Player's Guide" introduced a very similar mechanic called "Wound Level System". It's "nice", but bears a huge problem: a highlevel tank becomes outright immune to certain attacks. As I'm not familiar with M&M I only guess from your description that "Toughness" improves like a normal save with Con as key ability? If that's the case, a typical tank at level 10 would have a Toughness save of around 17(total) = 7(base) + 4(con) + 2(feat) + 4(item) = 17. If only the numerical value was important, the character'd be immune to anything with a damage bonus of +3 or less, as he just couldn't fail the save by any amount. And that's a pretty bad thing imho. It takes away from suspention of disbelieve even more than HP or VP/WP, as once the attack value of an enemy has been determined (based on the Toughness save DCs), combat again becomes pure number crunching. Also, what I'd still miss is an active defense on the character's part. From what I could read from your description the only hope of not getting hit is praying the enemy rolls crappy on his attack roll. However, this runs contrary to almost all combats portrayed in movies or books. The attacked character should take an active part in defending himself, not just play sitting duck. And yes, I am working on such a system, I'm still not yet done. :P
Edymnion 01-13-07, 03:14 PM	As I'm not familiar with M&M I only guess from your description that "Toughness" improves like a normal save with Con as key ability? If that's the case, a typical tank at level 10 would have a Toughness save of around 17(total) = 7(base) + 4(con) + 2(feat) + 4(item) = 17. If only the numerical value was important, the character'd be immune to anything with a damage bonus of +3 or less, as he just couldn't fail the save by any amount.Actually, M&M is points based, and generally does not involve leveling up in any shape, form, or fashion. Growth over time is possible via gaining more points a little at a time, but overall it doesn't revolve around "You suck at the beginning, and rock by the end". You start in the middle and thats generally where you stay. Also, what I'd still miss is an active defense on the character's part. From what I could read from your description the only hope of not getting hit is praying the enemy rolls crappy on his attack roll. However, this runs contrary to almost all combats portrayed in movies or books. The attacked character should take an active part in defending himself, not just play sitting duck. And yes, I am working on such a system, I'm still not yet done. :POh, it does have an active defense system, you can buy up your defense just like everything else. Its just that your ability to avoid being hit in the first place is entirely seperate from your ability to withstand the attack once it hits.
Xeviat-DM 01-13-07, 03:25 PM	Yikes. One of the biggest differences between M&M and D&D is that M&Ms melt in your mouth, not in your hands ... :rimshot: Seriously, the biggest difference is levelcaps. M&M is a point based system with imposed level caps on abilities (on the final modifier for some abilities, on the base score for others). Toughness and Defense have a level limit of 1/1, though you can voluntarily reduce your Defense to increase your Toughness limit. This would mean that, to be comparable, D&D's toughness save would have to scale like BAB, not like saves. The other issue is with Str and Dex and to hit and defense. M&M removes strength from to hit and removes dex from AC in an attempt to balance the scores. In my opinion, though, they inadvertantly made Constitution the most valuable score: I dont' need strength because I just take a blast or strike power, but Constitution applies to Toughness save, and with a high enough Constitution I don't need to pay to have a maxed Toughness score (I've been building an invulnerable character ...). I have some big issues with the system. Their skill condenses are fine, and in fact Starwars Saga Edition is utilizing them. I like the Toughness save in theory. But I hate the removal of AoOs (especially when I caught a few mechanics trying to mimic AoOs without calling them AoOs). It wouldn't be bad to simplify casters to be on par with non-casters, though. It would really be very simple: first, use the Warlock principal, and then have caster damage based on a single die plus a modifier, and allow amplification items to be purchased (such as a staff or a wand that could add extra effects, like enhancing a weapon). Then, create augmentation feats, and grant the wizard a number of them for free (to make up for their bad numerical bonuses), but allow them to select more if they want. Heck, you could even utilize something like Concentration checks to even cast spells, though that would really hurt non-damaging effects (though non-damaging effects would need to be reevaluated on similar lines as the warlock).
Jerks 01-13-07, 04:53 PM	The Mastermind's Manual has an option for introducing AoOps back into the game if you so wish. As I'm not familiar with M&M I only guess from your description that "Toughness" improves like a normal save with Con as key ability? If that's the case, a typical tank at level 10 would have a Toughness save of around 17(total) = 7(base) + 4(con) + 2(feat) + 4(item) = 17. If only the numerical value was important, the character'd be immune to anything with a damage bonus of +3 or less, as he just couldn't fail the save by any amount. The Toughness save in Mutants and Masterminds doesn't automatically increase as you get tougher. In fact, there are only four ways to do it. 1) By purchasing a feat, that allows you to increase Toughness through dodging 2) Improving your Con 3) Buying a super-power 4) Wearing armor In translating this I would see no reason to change this. Even if you did introduce some type of class progression a high Toughness save never really makes you immune to damage because it is a save (and you can always roll a 1) and things like sneak attack and power attack can easily swap even high Toughness saves.
Ra-Tiel 01-13-07, 05:22 PM	[...] Even if you did introduce some type of class progression a high Toughness save never really makes you immune to damage because it is a save (and you can always roll a 1) and things like sneak attack and power attack can easily swap even high Toughness saves. Which makes the situation even worse imo. A high-level tank switches back and forth from "utterly immune to lesser attacks" to "screwed and dead on a nat. 1". If - as you indicate - a natural 1 counts as failing the save by 10 or more, even a character with a Toughness save of 100 has a flat 5% chance of dying against an attack with damage +1. I'm not saying the system's "crap", I'm just pointing out the irregularities and problems I see with the system. I just don't like "binary" systems where you're either unaffected by something or utterly f***** by it. :shifty:
Xylem 01-13-07, 05:40 PM	Er, if you cross D&D and M&M, don't you get something rather like the True20 (http://true20.com) system? You might want to look at the various D&D settings conversions on the boards at the True20 site.
Jerks 01-13-07, 06:16 PM	Which makes the situation even worse imo. A high-level tank switches back and forth from "utterly immune to lesser attacks" to "screwed and dead on a nat. 1". If - as you indicate - a natural 1 counts as failing the save by 10 or more, even a character with a Toughness save of 100 has a flat 5% chance of dying against an attack with damage +1. I'm not saying the system's "crap", I'm just pointing out the irregularities and problems I see with the system. I just don't like "binary" systems where you're either unaffected by something or utterly f***** by it. :shifty: It's not binary. Rolling a 1 in M&M means you take at least the minimum possible result of failing a save. M&M uses a lot of "staged" saves of which Toughness is one. So in effect a natural 1 assures that you will fail by at least 1.
Edymnion 01-13-07, 11:17 PM	I'm not saying the system's "crap", I'm just pointing out the irregularities and problems I see with the system. I just don't like "binary" systems where you're either unaffected by something or utterly f***** by it. :shifty:Actually, thats just plain not true. The effects of failing your save are not really drastic, and in many ways are much more realistic and intuitive than D&D. After all, in D&D, you can get hit by a lightning bolt, hacked up by a battleaxe, and kicked in the shin a few times, and yet you are just as capable of a fighter as you were at full hitpoints. You aren't tired, you swing your sword just as hard and with just as much precision as when you started, its pretty much "binary" in D&D. There is no in-between stage where you are at any kind of reduced capacity. Either you are alive and at full fighting power, or you're dead/dying. In M&M, you fail a toughness save, and you are injured. You don't fight as well, and you're easier to hurt the next time, just like real life. And yes, just like real life, sometimes you can just plain get a lucky shot that takes somebody down. D&D has the same thing, as a core rule, its called Death from Massive Damage, which any Fighter worth his salt can typically generate with every swing by mid-levels, which brings it right back to "Make a save". Only again, in D&D, its binary. You either pass, and live, or fail, and die. Again, if anything, D&D is the binary system here.
stranger_among_us 01-14-07, 12:53 AM	umm... isn't the whole point of m&m to be APART from d&d? why bother putting them back together? m&m took out the classes, added points, and all kinds of powers not suited for a d&d game (and there's a reason for that). are you just going to change all of that and make it d&d again, or are you going to take out all of the stuff in d&d that isn't m&m? just leave well enough alone, i say.
ZombieDragon 01-14-07, 01:39 AM	Edymnion First I'll forward this with "my dad holds you in high regard" I do not know M&M (at first I thought the candy) . The leveling with regard to points. Is this like Gurps ? My dad had made mention he liked the mechanic and even GMed before. Ok on to MY knowledge, the toughness and fort saves would be CON based? How would the DnD classes get these superhero powers, or would classes get set amounts? My initial thought was the CO board and there uber damage PCs. These would pose a problem. Would it not be easier to slowly introduce DnD into M&M ? If you changed casting into a psionic like ability, might that aid the transition ? I'm sorry if my queries seem argumentative, They are truly far from. I actually like the idea. I just wish I had a M&M book on my extensive gaming shelf. My dad speaks of how Gurps was a far more expanding PC creation mechanic.
Ra-Tiel 01-14-07, 02:55 AM	It's not binary. Rolling a 1 in M&M means you take at least the minimum possible result of failing a save. M&M uses a lot of "staged" saves of which Toughness is one. So in effect a natural 1 assures that you will fail by at least 1. Ah, I see. You didn't mention that in your previous post, so I assumed that a natural 1 on a save meant the worst possible result (failed by 10). Now it's much clearer, thank you. :) --------------- Actually, thats just plain not true. The effects of failing your save are not really drastic, and in many ways are much more realistic and intuitive than D&D. I know. Jerks explained it with a bit more detail. After all, in D&D, you can get hit by a lightning bolt, hacked up by a battleaxe, and kicked in the shin a few times, and yet you are just as capable of a fighter as you were at full hitpoints. You aren't tired, you swing your sword just as hard and with just as much precision as when you started, its pretty much "binary" in D&D. There is no in-between stage where you are at any kind of reduced capacity. Either you are alive and at full fighting power, or you're dead/dying. Then you just fail to really use the correct degree of abstraction regarding HPs. With HPs, you only take one lethal hit: the one that brings you down to below zero. All other hits either bounce off your armor, or are just minor bruises. And regarding massive damage: that's the swing to your head you see coming and depending on your save you get away from the blow in time or not. In M&M, you fail a toughness save, and you are injured. You don't fight as well, and you're easier to hurt the next time, just like real life. And yes, just like real life, sometimes you can just plain get a lucky shot that takes somebody down. D&D has the same thing, as a core rule, its called Death from Massive Damage, which any Fighter worth his salt can typically generate with every swing by mid-levels, which brings it right back to "Make a save". Only again, in D&D, its binary. You either pass, and live, or fail, and die. I just wonder if this "just like real life" stuff has a place in DnD. After all, there are countless hit location and fumble systems drifting around in here that aim at making DnD "more realistic", yet fail horribly in a mechanical way. Why not just try VP/WP, or the Injury system presented in UA? Or Variable Massive Damage from UA, similar to d20 Modern? Or the Wound Level System from SSS's "Advanced Player's Guide"? Again, if anything, D&D is the binary system here. I never said I was fond of the d20 system. ;) :P
Xeviat-DM 01-14-07, 05:09 PM	I just looked over True20; interesting, and I might have to look it over (I could possibly convert my setting to it very easily). But I like the diversity in D&D's classes, and I like feat prerequisites. Maybe a compromise can be struck.
starfire311 01-15-07, 03:54 PM	ok this is a hard topic, I love a lot of things about M&M, but somethings I don't like, I jsut finished up a d20 future campaign, in which the players were a partial gestalt with M&M, at 1st level they made a d20 character just like normal, then I gave them 10 power points to spend on powers, attributes etc I converted damage dealing powers to be 1D6 per rank, I did not let them buy equipment. I then gave them 10 more points every 4th level. They game ran well like this and gave everyone some neat abilities... I would be tempted to try a full gestalt game using 1/2 DnD character with 1/2 M&M character. Whenever you hand out xp hand out PP equal to the XP/(levelx100) so if you give out 200xp they get 2 PP also.
overchill42 01-15-07, 05:11 PM	I see no reason to try to merge the two systems. Everything you can do in D&D, you can do in M&M, only more cinematic (D&D always feels choppy and restrictive to me). If you're dead-set on mushing the two together, then I'd just use the skill system changes. I'd even go so far as to use Acrobatics as well as Notice, Stealth, and Disable Device (thereby increasing the coolness of Monks and Rogues several times over). As for the Toughness bonus... maybe something like 1/2 HD base and increases according to BAB? The fragile classes are still fragile, the tough classes are still tough. If you institute Toughness saves, you might want to find a way to implement the Defense system. Def = BAB? I don't know. I still think the best idea is to use M&M to run a fantasy campaign. It wouldn't be too hard, but that's not the subject of this thread so I'll leave it at that.
starfire311 01-15-07, 06:39 PM	I see no reason to try to merge the two systems. Everything you can do in D&D, you can do in M&M, only more cinematic (D&D always feels choppy and restrictive to me). Simply put, no you cannot. You most definatly cannot make someone with a wide range of abilities like a standard DnD mid level wizard. Yes you can make dynamic alternate powers, but there is no way to make someone that has upwards of 50 different spells at say level 10.
Edymnion 01-16-07, 04:44 PM	The leveling with regard to points. Is this like Gurps ? My dad had made mention he liked the mechanic and even GMed before.M&M gives, as a default, 15 character points to spend per power level. So, if you start out at PL 10 (the system's default starting point), you get 150 points to spend. You slowly hand out more points as rewards, and if the GM wants, once he's handed out 15 points to everybody, thats the same PL wise as having a PL 11 character, he can increase the power level cap on the game to 11. Power level caps are how M&M maintains game balance. Instead of BAB per level for differant classes, it simply says that anything that forces a save (like an attack) can't have a bonus higher than the level cap. So, in a PL 10 game, nothing you can do (well, not nothing, there are exceptions, but in general) will let you do more than +10 damage. So, raising the PL of the game isn't really like leveling up in D&D, as it does not imply any gained abilities or powers. You already got those new powers when you got the extra points at the old PL, unless you saved them for something big, of course. Ok on to MY knowledge, the toughness and fort saves would be CON based?Yes, both are Con based. Just like how D&D gives you bonus hitpoints for a high con, in addition to the fort save bonus. How would the DnD classes get these superhero powers, or would classes get set amounts?The powers in M&M are *VERY* generic. A magic missle, a bow, and a throwing knife would all use the same base power, Blast (which is any ranged attack), and then add modifiers to make it more in line with what you want. Even the equipment is built this way, using the powers in the book, and turning them into items that grant you those abilities (like a gun as a piece of equipment would just be Blast 4, or things like that). Some work well as class abilities. There is a power called Protection which ups your Toughness save (like natural armor upping your AC), and you can get an extra on it called Impervious to make some of those ranks act like Damage Reduction. This kind of power would be ideal for something like Barbarian damage reduction. Other powers, like Flight, would likely have to be restricted to "magic spells only". My initial thought was the CO board and there uber damage PCs. These would pose a problem.M&M takes the stance from the beginning that, as a points based system, it is very easy to abuse, and goes to great lengths to reinforce the fact that the GM should look over character sheets closely and watch for abuse. There is no notion in M&M of "Well, this book says I can do it!", because the base assumption is always "Only if the GM lets me take this". There is no "here's my character, lets play", its "Here's what I want to play, get back to me with whatever changes need to be made".Would it not be easier to slowly introduce DnD into M&M ?Yes, it would actually, and I'm working on that too. I'm sorry if my queries seem argumentativeNah, you're fine. They are truly far from. I actually like the idea. I just wish I had a M&M book on my extensive gaming shelf. My dad speaks of how Gurps was a far more expanding PC creation mechanic.He might like M&M then. Its sort of like d20 meets a watered down Gurps. The system was made for super heroes in particular, but its actually generic enough that you can use it for *ANYTHING*. Kind of have to when you're dealing with things as wildly differant as super hero powers. Simply put, no you cannot. You most definatly cannot make someone with a wide range of abilities like a standard DnD mid level wizard. Yes you can make dynamic alternate powers, but there is no way to make someone that has upwards of 50 different spells at say level 10.Sure you can. Take Magic as your base power, and then spend 49 points on Alternate Powers. Thats only going to be around 70 points spent on powers, out of 150, which gives you ample points to finish out the build. There should even be enough left over to get a minion/sidekick familiar. Or better yet, you give them a much smaller Magic pool as "daily spells" and make it a Variable power array with a drawback that you have to rest 8 hours before you can reconfigure it.
starfire311 01-16-07, 06:23 PM	Sure you can. Take Magic as your base power, and then spend 49 points on Alternate Powers. Thats only going to be around 70 points spent on powers, out of 150, which gives you ample points to finish out the build. There should even be enough left over to get a minion/sidekick familiar. Not that same and you know it, if you did this you would not be able to use more htan one spell at the same time, so no flying while casting a lightning bolt, while having mage armor and shield up, see invisibility, and displacement up.
Edymnion 01-16-07, 07:28 PM	Not that same and you know it, if you did this you would not be able to use more htan one spell at the same time, so no flying while casting a lightning bolt, while having mage armor and shield up, see invisibility, and displacement up.Just give them Independant and/or Lasting. Sure, you're not supposed to put Lasting on AP arrays, but its appropriate here. Set duration by putting Fades and Total Fade on them. "Cast" Flight with all that, then next round reset the active power in the array to Blast, and start shooting. Its totally doable, you just have to fiddle with some of the finer points of the rules.
starfire311 01-17-07, 09:26 AM	Just give them Independant and/or Lasting. Sure, you're not supposed to put Lasting on AP arrays, but its appropriate here. Set duration by putting Fades and Total Fade on them. "Cast" Flight with all that, then next round reset the active power in the array to Blast, and start shooting. Its totally doable, you just have to fiddle with some of the finer points of the rules. Well, maybe if I had you as a DM I would enjoy the game I play in more, I tried playing creating a wizard in a game, that had dynamic alternate powers, so he could shift the points around them while keeping them active, I had about 5 spells, and could not achieve the concept with the allotted points. another complaint I have with the system is death it is too fast or too long, I ended up playing a skill monkey instead of the wizard, it was PL 5 cause he wanted to start us out weak, so I am like toughness of 3 should work, well the 1st guys we come up against have a damage bonus of 8, and I got killed by the 1st attack of the entire campaign, before my initiative. It took our group almost 10 rounds to finish these 3 guys off, cause they kept making their toughness saves, we had a group of 6 players. It seems like you must have a maxxed toughness/defense and maxxed attack/damage This was in a fantasy setting.
Jerks 01-17-07, 10:12 AM	Well, maybe if I had you as a DM I would enjoy the game I play in more, I tried playing creating a wizard in a game, that had dynamic alternate powers, so he could shift the points around them while keeping them active, I had about 5 spells, and could not achieve the concept with the allotted points. another complaint I have with the system is death it is too fast or too long, I ended up playing a skill monkey instead of the wizard, it was PL 5 cause he wanted to start us out weak, so I am like toughness of 3 should work, well the 1st guys we come up against have a damage bonus of 8, and I got killed by the 1st attack of the entire campaign, before my initiative. It took our group almost 10 rounds to finish these 3 guys off, cause they kept making their toughness saves, we had a group of 6 players. It seems like you must have a maxxed toughness/defense and maxxed attack/damage This was in a fantasy setting. This sounds more like a problem with the running of the game than the actual rules. It is easy to one shot someone because of the linear nature of the d20 roll, but that is what hero points (conviction in True 20) is for. With a hero point you could of rerolled the Toughness save (minimium result of 14) or saved it and automatically stabilized from the dying condition. Insta-death is actually less likely in M&M than in D&D. All but the hardiest low-level D&D characters can be one-shot incapacitated by an orc with a falchion and M&M mechanics also lack any Save or Die options as are prevelant through-out D&D (although these two are being toned down with each new edition). As far as converting/merging M&M to D&D I don't think that it's necessary to do a direct translation of how everything works it D&D. Afterall, if that's all you wanted to do then why bother? Magic woks fundamentally different in the two systems and honestly some compromises would have to be made. The wizard would most likely have fewer spells than his D&D equivalent, but those spells would be several times more versatile through the use of hero-points and extra effort. The array structure is also compensated for by buying independent on a number of powers and by having more than one magic array. You don't have to build everything within the array and even M&M mages tend to keep often used "buffs" seperate from their core magic array.
Edymnion 01-17-07, 04:13 PM	Well, maybe if I had you as a DM I would enjoy the game I play in more, I tried playing creating a wizard in a game, that had dynamic alternate powers, so he could shift the points around them while keeping them active, I had about 5 spells, and could not achieve the concept with the allotted points.Its really just a matter of figuring out what you want to do, exactly, and then playing with the rules until you get something that does the same thing. Unlike D&D, you can easily spend months tweaking a M&M character and still not have them *JUST* right. another complaint I have with the system is death it is too fast or too long, I ended up playing a skill monkey instead of the wizard, it was PL 5 cause he wanted to start us out weak, so I am like toughness of 3 should work, well the 1st guys we come up against have a damage bonus of 8, and I got killed by the 1st attack of the entire campaign, before my initiative. It took our group almost 10 rounds to finish these 3 guys off, cause they kept making their toughness saves, we had a group of 6 players.Well, a couple of things here. 1) If the GM kept the baddies at your PL, then the only way for them to have a damage of +8 was to trade off their attack down to +2, meaning they should have had difficulty hitting the proverbial barn. 2) If not, the GM was just plain trying to kill you, and like in D&D, if the GM wants you dead, you're gonna die. 3) If it was at the start of the game, you should have had at least one hero point. You could have used that to get a reroll on your save. And the rerolls from HP in M&M say that if you roll less than an 11 on it, that you add 10, meaning you can never get below an 11 on your final check. Still wouldn't have been foolproof, but it would have given you a good chance of surviving the hit. 4) Otherwise, its just like D&D. Sometimes the lvl 1 goblin with the greataxe gets lucky. It seems like you must have a maxxed toughness/defense and maxxed attack/damageIt depends on the players and the GM.
JoAT 01-17-07, 05:19 PM	I don't see any real problem with folding in these minor elements into the D&D system. The skill changes are, overall, minor enough that it would not likely be noticed. A similar folding occured with Direction Sense and Wilderness Lore, and I believe that Sense Motive and Innuendo (or was it Bluff and Innuendo, ot maybe Innuendo was split between the two...), and I really don't think anyone's noted on an extreme jump in power in Rangers, Barbarians and Bards due to skills - at best, it would allow for more veristile rogues. The damage save mechanic is whole other kettle of fish, however. Intergrating it successfully might be hard, (though not as hard as most might think, as the 2e M&M system is an upgraded, more useful and better take on the 1e M&M system, which was reprinted in UA as the Injury (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/injury.htm) system). The main difficulty comes from the intense scaleing of Toughness Saves and Damage, and determining how to assign damage to stuff (the Injury system advocates the incredibally cumbersome method of rolling damage, dividing by 5 and rounding up to get the damage bonus - since part of the idea of Damage Saves is to remove alot of the time spent rolling, I don't really think that it's the best idea out there). A +1 weapon would no longer be able to add +1 to damage as well, since it's just so low (an all things that add +1 damage become mostly useless), and a +1d6 energy damage weapon (best expressed as +2 damage, if Sneak attack sets the conversion meter), is not really very great at all (and all the crit multipliers get wacky, too). Meanwhile the Toughness save will need some serious pumping, and almost assuredly by magic, just in order to keep up with the damage side of things. Of course, you could also just toss the vast majority of magic on both sides, and establish PL-like guidlines and caps for these things, in which case I'd see no real problem with the Damage Saves working at all. (and Impervious would make for a great, actually frigtening version of DR).
Edymnion 01-17-07, 09:18 PM	and a +1d6 energy damage weapon (best expressed as +2 damage, if Sneak attack sets the conversion meter)Yes, M&M treats Sneak Attack as a straight +2 damage. A dagger does +1 damage, while a longsword does +3 damage. If we want to extrapolate from that, we get a very easy to follow pattern. 1d4 = +1 Increase die size one step: 1d6 = +2 Increase die size: 1d8 = +3 Which means 1d10/1d12/2d6 should be +4, and 1d20 should be +5. That makes converting pretty much all D&D weapons over to M&M weapons pretty simple. Just translate the damage based off those numbers, and then keep crit range and multiplier the same. And since we know that a +1 to damage in D&D damage is the mathematical equivolent of increasing the damage dice by one step, and that increasing one step is the equivolent of a +1 damage in M&M, the plus values translate over directly. So, we know that, for instance, a +3 Flaming Longsword would be a total of Strike 8. +3 base damage, +3 magic damage, and +2 fire damage.
Ra-Tiel 01-18-07, 12:48 AM	[...] And since we know that a +1 to damage in D&D damage is the mathematical equivolent of increasing the damage dice by one step, and that increasing one step is the equivolent of a +1 damage in M&M, the plus values translate over directly. So, we know that, for instance, a +3 Flaming Longsword would be a total of Strike 8. +3 base damage, +3 magic damage, and +2 fire damage. I guess the problem would not be to translate the weapons, but to actually implement the Toughness save progression. If you treated it like a save in DnD, you have two choices for each class: good save or bad save. From what I gathered from various posts so far in M&M you have a set PL (power level?) and damage and toughness couldn't normally exceed that level with their base values (so PL3 = base damage from powers max 3). If this is correct it's great. The problem is that DnD does not have such a mechanic. So you're stuck with either 2-12 or 0-6 progressions for Toughness, or you implement a different mechanic which messes up the whole system as you have now two implementations for saves. The other problem I see is that DnD does not have mechanics for scaled save results. Toughness works - afaik - on a "You succeeded"/"You failed"/"You failed by 5+"/"You failed by 10+"/"You failed by 15+" mechanic. Ok, what happens on a natural 1? By how much do you actually fail the save then? It could work if you changed the base DC to 0 + damage rating and worked up from that base with You failed = dying You succeeded = crippled You succeeded by 5+ = wounded You succeeded by 10+ = injured You succeeded by 15+ = scratched or whatever the existing conditions are. This way you only have one condition from failing the save and not multiple.
starfire311 01-18-07, 09:02 AM	Well, a couple of things here. 1) If the GM kept the baddies at your PL, then the only way for them to have a damage of +8 was to trade off their attack down to +2, meaning they should have had difficulty hitting the proverbial barn. PL 5 max defense equals +5, I put a +3 in it cause I was playing a skill monkey, he needed an 11 to hit me with a +2 attack, that is 50% chance to hit, he had a damage DC of 23 with my +3 toughness save I needed a nat 20 to succeed 2) If not, the GM was just plain trying to kill you, and like in D&D, if the GM wants you dead, you're gonna die. nope we won the fight, it was just dang tough, cause of the wackiness of the rules, you can literally beat on someone all day, if they keep making saves. 3) If it was at the start of the game, you should have had at least one hero point. You could have used that to get a reroll on your save. And the rerolls from HP in M&M say that if you roll less than an 11 on it, that you add 10, meaning you can never get below an 11 on your final check. Still wouldn't have been foolproof, but it would have given you a good chance of surviving the hit. I know how HP work, I didnt have any, because the GM wanted to run a fantasy game, and using hero points made it feel too much like a super hero game In his opinion. 4) Otherwise, its just like D&D. Sometimes the lvl 1 goblin with the greataxe gets lucky alot more rare that that this happens IMO yeah, I guess another thing that bugs me about the game is PL and gear. and the unplayability at lower than 5th level. imagine a PL 1 game with max stats of 12, max saves of +1, max attack of +1, max damage of +1, at PL 1 if you have a strength of 12 it is pointless to use a weapon. now lets look at PL 8 take a level 8 trying to play a barbarian. max damage is +8, unless he took a trade off. lets give him a longsword and the boost ability for 6 strength/con and a 20 strength, with gauntlets granting a +2 strength for a 22 total. damage mods from weapons longsword = +2 Damage from strength = +6 Damage from boost = +3 this is +11 the barbarian would not be able to make use of his boost, guess he should not put so much in strength, so lets drop him down to 16 strength so he doesnt have all the wasted points. ok so our muscly barbarian and his party now fight a BBEG, he(the BBEG) is using a +1 great sword(damage = +5) the party beats him and gives the barb the great sword. this gets our PL 8 barb back up to a +11 damage save, with boost and +8 without boost, he really has no reason to ever use boost, or to use the great sword, if he uses boost, because the longsword is just as good in his hands. the whole not being able to use gear you find because you havent spent the PP or because it exceeds you PL limit when stacked on top of your natural abilties just seems silly. Barbarian: "oh I know the great sowrd is better than the long sword, but since I havent spent the PP to use it, I must decline the offer, until I advance so I can write in on my character sheet"
JoAT 01-18-07, 10:59 AM	Yes, M&M treats Sneak Attack as a straight +2 damage. A dagger does +1 damage, while a longsword does +3 damage. If we want to extrapolate from that, we get a very easy to follow pattern. 1d4 = +1 Increase die size one step: 1d6 = +2 Increase die size: 1d8 = +3 Which means 1d10/1d12/2d6 should be +4, and 1d20 should be +5. That makes converting pretty much all D&D weapons over to M&M weapons pretty simple. Just translate the damage based off those numbers, and then keep crit range and multiplier the same. And since we know that a +1 to damage in D&D damage is the mathematical equivolent of increasing the damage dice by one step, and that increasing one step is the equivolent of a +1 damage in M&M, the plus values translate over directly. So, we know that, for instance, a +3 Flaming Longsword would be a total of Strike 8. +3 base damage, +3 magic damage, and +2 fire damage. This still sets something of a problem (and I'd especially worry about setting +1 damage as +1 damage, since there are small, cheap things that can add +1 to your damage, like dragon tooth weapons), without PL caps. Lets crunch some numbers here... *grabs M&M main book and PHB2* Using the PHB2 to make a quick, non-optimized 10th level fighter (using NPC equipment, even): Str 17 (19) Dex 13 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 8 Feats (As per the Destroyer party role, PHB2, page 211): Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Flay, Improved Sunder, Weapon Specialization (Greatsword), Iron Will, Improved Bull Rush, Greater Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Melee Weapon Mastery (slashing), Improved Critical (Greatsword). Gear: +1 greatsword, +2 full plate armor, potion of barkskin +3, gauntlets of Ogre Strength Damage: Strength +4 Greatsword +4 +1 Enhancement +1 Weapon Specialization +2 Melee Weapon Mastery +2 -------------------------- Total: +13 (Criticals on a 18-20, pushing the damage bonus to +18) Attack Bonus: Strength +4 +1 Enhancement +1 Weapon Focus +1 Greater Weapon Focus +1 Melee Weapon Mastery +2 -------------------------- Total +9 Defense: Dex +1 -------------------------- Total: Defense 11 Toughness: Base: ? Con +2 Full Plate: +8 (or, +6, if M&M armor bonus is used) Potion of Barkskin +3 -------------------------- Total: +13 (or +11) (without any class bonus). Not too bad, actually. Better than a PL 10 character, but not by much - this is only NPC equipment, though, and using feats right out of the book. The Toughness save would definitely have to be massaged, alot, since armor provides a huge bonus (half the AC bonus, round up, maybe?), and magic provides some big bonuses to both sides, as well, not to mention the various cap-systems (imagine Flay, Improved Sunder, Improved Bull Rush and Iron Will replaced with Martial Study (Burning Blade), Powerful Charge, Desert Wind Dodge, and Desert Wind Strike, just to pull decidedly non-optimized some ideas out of my rear end, for a total of an additional +8 damage (+5 of which is fire damage), once per encounter). The problem is that, in D&D, because of all the various books, characters can be incredibly specialized, and can boost things out of this world (in comparison to M&M characters), if they want to, because of the lack of overall control of these limits. The character above, if he replaced the feats as I suggested, (and for fun, let's say he's wielding a Blue dragonfang greatsword, since it fits in his remaining budget of 850 gp, for an additional +1 damage), can deal +22 damage on his first attack, forcing a toughness save DC of 37. Since things that add to Defense are rare, he'll almost certainly hit on all attacks, and depending on what chart would be made for the Toughness save, this could be anything from instantly deadly, to just a minor scratch. If the save varies too much (such as regular saves do), then it could likely be both (being instantly deadly to a wizard with a poor save, and just a scratch to a barbarian).
Jerks 01-18-07, 11:25 AM	I know how HP work, I didnt have any, because the GM wanted to run a fantasy game, and using hero points made it feel too much like a super hero game In his opinion. Well, simply put the Toughness save mechanic doesn't work without hero points. It's the edge that gives PCs a chance and protects them agains the random crappy roll. You DM did you quite a disservice by not allowing for them. It's unfortunate that you had such a bad experience that it has soured you on the system. It really is one of the best d20 products on the market. No, you can't do a direct port of D&D to M&M. As you point out, PCs don't really work below PL 4 or 5, but comparing PL to character levels is at many times an apples to oranges type of thing. If you get a chance you might want to check out True 20. It's a modification of the M&M rules for a fantasy setting. The Toughness save mechanic is still there....as are hero points. But to address the later portions of your post (not quoted here) it uses a class based progession instead of M&M power levels.
starfire311 01-18-07, 12:16 PM	just want to say I am not soured completly on it, just many things I don't like about it, there are many things I don't like about DnD either. just like with both systems there are many things I do like. If you get a chance you might want to check out True 20. It's a modification of the M&M rules for a fantasy setting. The Toughness save mechanic is still there....as are hero points. But to address the later portions of your post (not quoted here) it uses a class based progession instead of M&M power levels. I will check out this True D20 you speak of:) I have not seen it yet, too many 3rd party books to check them all out.
Xylem 01-18-07, 12:27 PM	I will check out this True D20 you speak of:) I have not seen it yet, too many 3rd party books to check them all out. An easy way to start that is to look at www.true20.com. There are some free downloads and the forums there are generally pretty friendly.