Merging the "Stealth" Skills? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Merging the "Stealth" Skills? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ryngard
06-28-06, 09:35 AM I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on merging Hide and Move Silently into a single skill (Stealth?) and merging Spot and Listen into a single skill (Awareness) as a house rule.

I looked through the boards and hadn't seen any topics on this subject. Does anyone think it's a good idea? Any major issues or problems if I did do it that has already been discussed?

The main problem we have is trying to decide when to use the sight ones or the hearing ones. MOST of the time both apply. It just seems a little silly to need four skills. I'm fine with it as written but if anyone else has done this or thought it would be a good idea, I think it would really help out with some of the confusion.

Thanks for reading!
MasterOfPsychic
06-28-06, 10:35 AM The problem is that while both audio and visual aply at the same time a few times, they mostly work at separate occations...

And: the number of skills needed is surely balanced up against the number of skill points that different classes gain...

A reduction in two main skills for the rogue, means that he would need 4 int less to get the same skills...

That is why the balance is an important aspect....
Millennium
06-28-06, 11:03 AM I see three problems with merging the stealth skills.

One: Hide and Spot are primarily visual, while Move Silently and Listen are primarily aural. They're different senses, they're trained in different ways, and they use different techniques. Although there are times when both might be said to apply, even in such cases there is almost always one which is clearly a better fit: there is little to no real ambiguity. As a result, putting them together into a single skill does not make sense.

Two: Anytime you merge two skills into one, you reduce the size of any class skill list that includes both, while you effectively increase the size of any class skill list that includes only one of the two. This affects game balance in subtle ways that aren't always easy to detect at first.

Three: Anytime you merge two skills into one, the new merged skill becomes clearly more powerful than either of the skills which combined to form it. This is dangerous ground to walk on; aside from affecting game balance, it also appeals to powergamers.
Phoenix Knight
06-28-06, 11:09 AM While I would have liked to have seen the balance designed such that they were single skills as found in most other game systems, I have to agree with Millenium on all three points. If you do this, you will make the skills doubly powerful. If that does not bother you, then that's okay. But if your only reason for doing so is that you often feel compelled to use both at the same time, then remember that that is probably intentional.
Ryngard
06-28-06, 12:33 PM Those are good points and I agree with them. I still agree with my idea too. That's my problem. :)

I appreciate the comments thus far, I guess I'll have to do a lot of thinking. You can go both ways with it.

See, in our games, when stealth is involved odds are both sets of checks need to be rolled (not always, but usually). Additionally, not many people tend to take all of the "stealth" skills and when they do they usually don't max them out.

So I think for MY game it wouldn't change much aside from cutting down on confusion and dice rolls.

I'm still torn though...

Can anyone come up with reasons WHY it WILL work? I'd like to prove that it could be changed without upsetting game balance. Anywho, if you can think of advice, tips, solutions, or anything please post.

Thanks all!
Ryngard
06-28-06, 12:38 PM One of my gamers sent this in our email discussion... what do you think this adds to the concept?

________________________________________ ____________________

well, if you agree with both sides, come up with a happy middle ground. The closest i can conceive is to merge the skills, but reduce sp/level by 1 for all classes that have hide/ms as class skills.

That way, no one class gets any advantage, and there are no additional skill points floating around, but you still get less rolling and sidebar conversations over which one to use.

I would almost say the same for listen/spot, but a knight class or something similar would be severely screwed on points that way if it affects them

This route adds more paperwork so to speak, and would take some getting used to, so i'm not sure how effective it would be overall.

Alternatively, you could just change the skills and not adjust the sp. this gives rogue based classes a slight edge, but ultimately the rest of their skill base is not commonly used (see knowledge (whatever)), so it shouldn't unbalance by any more than the slightest of margins.

Lastly, we could not change anything, but dice rolling will be as normal, unless you just say roll once and apply to both skills, but that can either really screw ya, or give you a huge edge...but, since the skills are so closely related, it might not be a bad idea anyway...

not sure how much that helps..

________________________________________ ____________________

See I want the ease to just say "roll a steath check" and then oppose it by the creature's "awareness" check. Its easier for me.

That said, I don't want to give stealthy characters an advantage of extra SP.

The problem with reducing skill points is that SOME ROgues/Bard/Rangers don't put any ranks in Hide/Move Silently so why would they be punished, you know?

Bah I'm in a mental pickle.
GOCAPS83
06-28-06, 03:38 PM I really like this idea, I only have one problem with it... I'm remembering that some classes, such as the Order of the Bow Initiate, have one but not the other. Not all classes and PRCs have both as normal skills, so it might be difficult to smooth it over completely. The Order of the Bow initiate has Spot as a skill, but not listen, meaning they are expected to have very keen eye sight, but not necessarily be able to hear someone who is sneaking up right behind them. I am very on the fence for this one.
Lord_Tirian
06-28-06, 07:06 PM There are also some d20 systems out there, that do similar things (MS and Hide to Sneak; Spot and Listen to Perception).
There is also the route of merging only one of these skill-pairs, for example AE does it: There is MS and Hide folded into Sneak, but Spot and Listen remain.

Flavourwise, I like the AE approach, because skills equal training, and a trained rogue, who can move silently, but is still visible as hell - eh, a bit strange. The distinction of Spot and Listen is more reasonable, you can become blind AND/OR deaf, additionally hearing and seeing ae fundamentally different, but sneaking (when trained) should combine both.

There also other balance aspects: Sneak vs. Listen AND Spot shifts the favour towards the observant, because they get 2 checks to negate a sneak attempt - i.e. a bad Listen roll doesn't matter that much, because Spot and buffer it.
The reverse is also true, because if you sneak with to checks, and they make one perception roll, there is a high chance, that they will not be discovered completely (only heard).

The balance with the skill points in excess: The classes that really profit from more skill points are usually those with a low skill point count - these classes are usually not very skill-dependant, additionally: Are there any combat-relevant skills besides Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot? Perhaps Climb? Only until level 5 or so, then they can fly. Tumble? It's only a class skill for the skill point masters (monks/rogues). Concentration? A spellcaster wouldn't hide that much... - so whatever you do - you can leave the skill points unchanged (IMO).
Ryngard
06-29-06, 08:03 AM There are also some d20 systems out there, that do similar things (MS and Hide to Sneak; Spot and Listen to Perception).
There is also the route of merging only one of these skill-pairs, for example AE does it: There is MS and Hide folded into Sneak, but Spot and Listen remain.

Flavourwise, I like the AE approach, because skills equal training, and a trained rogue, who can move silently, but is still visible as hell - eh, a bit strange. The distinction of Spot and Listen is more reasonable, you can become blind AND/OR deaf, additionally hearing and seeing ae fundamentally different, but sneaking (when trained) should combine both.

There also other balance aspects: Sneak vs. Listen AND Spot shifts the favour towards the observant, because they get 2 checks to negate a sneak attempt - i.e. a bad Listen roll doesn't matter that much, because Spot and buffer it.
The reverse is also true, because if you sneak with to checks, and they make one perception roll, there is a high chance, that they will not be discovered completely (only heard).

The balance with the skill points in excess: The classes that really profit from more skill points are usually those with a low skill point count - these classes are usually not very skill-dependant, additionally: Are there any combat-relevant skills besides Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot? Perhaps Climb? Only until level 5 or so, then they can fly. Tumble? It's only a class skill for the skill point masters (monks/rogues). Concentration? A spellcaster wouldn't hide that much... - so whatever you do - you can leave the skill points unchanged (IMO).

I really think that the AE version is best. I find it easy to rule whether to use Spot or Listen but sometimes deciding whether Hide or MS apply (or both) is annoying. I think, unless my group objects, we'll merge Hide/MS into Sneak.

How does AE handle magic items then?

For instance Boots of Elvenkind (+5 enhance MS) and Cloak of Elvenkind (+5 enhance to Hide) each will then provide +5 enhance to Sneak? Should I just do a blank change and leave it at that?
Lord_Tirian
06-29-06, 07:02 PM I really think that the AE version is best. I find it easy to rule whether to use Spot or Listen but sometimes deciding whether Hide or MS apply (or both) is annoying. I think, unless my group objects, we'll merge Hide/MS into Sneak.

How does AE handle magic items then?

For instance Boots of Elvenkind (+5 enhance MS) and Cloak of Elvenkind (+5 enhance to Hide) each will then provide +5 enhance to Sneak? Should I just do a blank change and leave it at that?
In AE you just make new items for the Sneak skill, i.e. something like a Cloak of Sneakiness, that gives you +5 to Sneak (because two items with circumstance bonus do not stack).
You only need two items, because there are two skills, so with only one skill, the characters need only one item, so just cut the superfluous item - or let the players be happy, because they can choose between both items.
Valoy_Muniz
06-30-06, 08:47 AM If it is just to cut down die rolls what you can do is have them roll the die once and apply the bounes sepert.

Example
Player x has +4 spot and +6 listen
He rolls a 10 on a d20
For this time he has a 14 spot and a 16 listen.

This would make you still need the ranks in spot and listen but cuts the rolls down. My GM made me do something like this with a fimiller as he said getting double rolls on everything was not fair.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ryngard 06-28-06, 09:35 AM	I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on merging Hide and Move Silently into a single skill (Stealth?) and merging Spot and Listen into a single skill (Awareness) as a house rule. I looked through the boards and hadn't seen any topics on this subject. Does anyone think it's a good idea? Any major issues or problems if I did do it that has already been discussed? The main problem we have is trying to decide when to use the sight ones or the hearing ones. MOST of the time both apply. It just seems a little silly to need four skills. I'm fine with it as written but if anyone else has done this or thought it would be a good idea, I think it would really help out with some of the confusion. Thanks for reading!
MasterOfPsychic 06-28-06, 10:35 AM	The problem is that while both audio and visual aply at the same time a few times, they mostly work at separate occations... And: the number of skills needed is surely balanced up against the number of skill points that different classes gain... A reduction in two main skills for the rogue, means that he would need 4 int less to get the same skills... That is why the balance is an important aspect....
Millennium 06-28-06, 11:03 AM	I see three problems with merging the stealth skills. One: Hide and Spot are primarily visual, while Move Silently and Listen are primarily aural. They're different senses, they're trained in different ways, and they use different techniques. Although there are times when both might be said to apply, even in such cases there is almost always one which is clearly a better fit: there is little to no real ambiguity. As a result, putting them together into a single skill does not make sense. Two: Anytime you merge two skills into one, you reduce the size of any class skill list that includes both, while you effectively increase the size of any class skill list that includes only one of the two. This affects game balance in subtle ways that aren't always easy to detect at first. Three: Anytime you merge two skills into one, the new merged skill becomes clearly more powerful than either of the skills which combined to form it. This is dangerous ground to walk on; aside from affecting game balance, it also appeals to powergamers.
Phoenix Knight 06-28-06, 11:09 AM	While I would have liked to have seen the balance designed such that they were single skills as found in most other game systems, I have to agree with Millenium on all three points. If you do this, you will make the skills doubly powerful. If that does not bother you, then that's okay. But if your only reason for doing so is that you often feel compelled to use both at the same time, then remember that that is probably intentional.
Ryngard 06-28-06, 12:33 PM	Those are good points and I agree with them. I still agree with my idea too. That's my problem. :) I appreciate the comments thus far, I guess I'll have to do a lot of thinking. You can go both ways with it. See, in our games, when stealth is involved odds are both sets of checks need to be rolled (not always, but usually). Additionally, not many people tend to take all of the "stealth" skills and when they do they usually don't max them out. So I think for MY game it wouldn't change much aside from cutting down on confusion and dice rolls. I'm still torn though... Can anyone come up with reasons WHY it WILL work? I'd like to prove that it could be changed without upsetting game balance. Anywho, if you can think of advice, tips, solutions, or anything please post. Thanks all!
Ryngard 06-28-06, 12:38 PM	One of my gamers sent this in our email discussion... what do you think this adds to the concept? ________________________________________ ____________________ well, if you agree with both sides, come up with a happy middle ground. The closest i can conceive is to merge the skills, but reduce sp/level by 1 for all classes that have hide/ms as class skills. That way, no one class gets any advantage, and there are no additional skill points floating around, but you still get less rolling and sidebar conversations over which one to use. I would almost say the same for listen/spot, but a knight class or something similar would be severely screwed on points that way if it affects them This route adds more paperwork so to speak, and would take some getting used to, so i'm not sure how effective it would be overall. Alternatively, you could just change the skills and not adjust the sp. this gives rogue based classes a slight edge, but ultimately the rest of their skill base is not commonly used (see knowledge (whatever)), so it shouldn't unbalance by any more than the slightest of margins. Lastly, we could not change anything, but dice rolling will be as normal, unless you just say roll once and apply to both skills, but that can either really screw ya, or give you a huge edge...but, since the skills are so closely related, it might not be a bad idea anyway... not sure how much that helps.. ________________________________________ ____________________ See I want the ease to just say "roll a steath check" and then oppose it by the creature's "awareness" check. Its easier for me. That said, I don't want to give stealthy characters an advantage of extra SP. The problem with reducing skill points is that SOME ROgues/Bard/Rangers don't put any ranks in Hide/Move Silently so why would they be punished, you know? Bah I'm in a mental pickle.
GOCAPS83 06-28-06, 03:38 PM	I really like this idea, I only have one problem with it... I'm remembering that some classes, such as the Order of the Bow Initiate, have one but not the other. Not all classes and PRCs have both as normal skills, so it might be difficult to smooth it over completely. The Order of the Bow initiate has Spot as a skill, but not listen, meaning they are expected to have very keen eye sight, but not necessarily be able to hear someone who is sneaking up right behind them. I am very on the fence for this one.
Lord_Tirian 06-28-06, 07:06 PM	There are also some d20 systems out there, that do similar things (MS and Hide to Sneak; Spot and Listen to Perception). There is also the route of merging only one of these skill-pairs, for example AE does it: There is MS and Hide folded into Sneak, but Spot and Listen remain. Flavourwise, I like the AE approach, because skills equal training, and a trained rogue, who can move silently, but is still visible as hell - eh, a bit strange. The distinction of Spot and Listen is more reasonable, you can become blind AND/OR deaf, additionally hearing and seeing ae fundamentally different, but sneaking (when trained) should combine both. There also other balance aspects: Sneak vs. Listen AND Spot shifts the favour towards the observant, because they get 2 checks to negate a sneak attempt - i.e. a bad Listen roll doesn't matter that much, because Spot and buffer it. The reverse is also true, because if you sneak with to checks, and they make one perception roll, there is a high chance, that they will not be discovered completely (only heard). The balance with the skill points in excess: The classes that really profit from more skill points are usually those with a low skill point count - these classes are usually not very skill-dependant, additionally: Are there any combat-relevant skills besides Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot? Perhaps Climb? Only until level 5 or so, then they can fly. Tumble? It's only a class skill for the skill point masters (monks/rogues). Concentration? A spellcaster wouldn't hide that much... - so whatever you do - you can leave the skill points unchanged (IMO).
Ryngard 06-29-06, 08:03 AM	There are also some d20 systems out there, that do similar things (MS and Hide to Sneak; Spot and Listen to Perception). There is also the route of merging only one of these skill-pairs, for example AE does it: There is MS and Hide folded into Sneak, but Spot and Listen remain. Flavourwise, I like the AE approach, because skills equal training, and a trained rogue, who can move silently, but is still visible as hell - eh, a bit strange. The distinction of Spot and Listen is more reasonable, you can become blind AND/OR deaf, additionally hearing and seeing ae fundamentally different, but sneaking (when trained) should combine both. There also other balance aspects: Sneak vs. Listen AND Spot shifts the favour towards the observant, because they get 2 checks to negate a sneak attempt - i.e. a bad Listen roll doesn't matter that much, because Spot and buffer it. The reverse is also true, because if you sneak with to checks, and they make one perception roll, there is a high chance, that they will not be discovered completely (only heard). The balance with the skill points in excess: The classes that really profit from more skill points are usually those with a low skill point count - these classes are usually not very skill-dependant, additionally: Are there any combat-relevant skills besides Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot? Perhaps Climb? Only until level 5 or so, then they can fly. Tumble? It's only a class skill for the skill point masters (monks/rogues). Concentration? A spellcaster wouldn't hide that much... - so whatever you do - you can leave the skill points unchanged (IMO). I really think that the AE version is best. I find it easy to rule whether to use Spot or Listen but sometimes deciding whether Hide or MS apply (or both) is annoying. I think, unless my group objects, we'll merge Hide/MS into Sneak. How does AE handle magic items then? For instance Boots of Elvenkind (+5 enhance MS) and Cloak of Elvenkind (+5 enhance to Hide) each will then provide +5 enhance to Sneak? Should I just do a blank change and leave it at that?
Lord_Tirian 06-29-06, 07:02 PM	I really think that the AE version is best. I find it easy to rule whether to use Spot or Listen but sometimes deciding whether Hide or MS apply (or both) is annoying. I think, unless my group objects, we'll merge Hide/MS into Sneak. How does AE handle magic items then? For instance Boots of Elvenkind (+5 enhance MS) and Cloak of Elvenkind (+5 enhance to Hide) each will then provide +5 enhance to Sneak? Should I just do a blank change and leave it at that? In AE you just make new items for the Sneak skill, i.e. something like a Cloak of Sneakiness, that gives you +5 to Sneak (because two items with circumstance bonus do not stack). You only need two items, because there are two skills, so with only one skill, the characters need only one item, so just cut the superfluous item - or let the players be happy, because they can choose between both items.
Valoy_Muniz 06-30-06, 08:47 AM	If it is just to cut down die rolls what you can do is have them roll the die once and apply the bounes sepert. Example Player x has +4 spot and +6 listen He rolls a 10 on a d20 For this time he has a 14 spot and a 16 listen. This would make you still need the ranks in spot and listen but cuts the rolls down. My GM made me do something like this with a fimiller as he said getting double rolls on everything was not fair.