Mixing Wound/Vitality with Alternate Death and Dying rules? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Mixing Wound/Vitality with Alternate Death and Dying rules? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Xeviat-DM
12-21-04, 01:31 AM How would you suggest making this mixture?

Also, how do you think the Die Hard feat should function under the Alternate Death and Dying rules?

Thanks.
Xeviat-DM
12-21-04, 03:01 PM I'm sorry, I should have asked everybody how you think these two mechanics would work together. Do you think they would produce more compelling combats? As a DM, I'm tired of seeing players have no fear of somebody drawing a knife on them, unless they have reason to believe it is poisoned or very magical. By using the Wound/Vitality mechanic, even a knife can be feared.

Additionally, I've been enjoying the Alternate Death and Dying rules. Rather than automatically going under at -1 hp, the varient allows Fortitude saves to stay up. My question is this: when combined with the Alternate Death and Dying rules and the Wound/Vitality rules, how would the Die Hard feat work?
Xeviat-DM
01-08-05, 12:39 AM Nothing? This won't weaken the Wound/Vitality system too much? I do understand that it will make it closer to the standard HP system, but will it be too much like the standard HP system?
Tuneless Bard
01-08-05, 11:30 AM Seems like a fine mix, if you use strict WP.VP system as listed in the book, just use the alternate death and dying rules when you hit 0wp...

die hard becomes pretty weak though...I would allow the character with die hard to avoid having to roll to stabilize...and he is not disabled....but if he gets hit again, he's dead...

or just play like the character cant be stunned from a wp hit...
Mind Rogue
01-08-05, 12:21 PM Well, diehard lets you act normally when you are disabled or dying, and with the death and dying variant, you can still become disabled and dying, so a character with diehard wouldn't really be gimped. Making it so that he isn't stunned when he takes wound point damage does seem appropriate. If you still feal this isn't enough, give him a +4 bonus on his fort saves to resist dying or something.
Xeviat-DM
01-09-05, 04:57 AM My problem is that Diehard might be too powerful. Each time they take a strenuous action while they are disabled, nothing will happen unless they fail their fort save and reach dead. Some sort of round based increase to their fort save for this situation seems appropriate. Endurance should already apply to this sort of save.
Tuneless Bard
01-09-05, 08:39 AM I certinely think it is no different than standard...

you dont have to make saves for making strenuous actions at 0 hp with diehard....why should you at 0 wp with diehard?

its just that with standard, you might be able to take a hit and still be up...

you take a hit with the alternate rules and your dead.
Xeviat-DM
01-09-05, 09:07 PM THE FORTITUDE SAVE
When a character's hit points are reduced to 0, he must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10, +2 per 10 points of damage dealt by the attack or effect). Success means the character is disabled; failure indicates that he is dying. Failure by 10 or more means the character is dead (if the character rolls a natural 1, he is dying. Calculate the numeric result; if he missed the DC by 10 or more, he is dead).
The possible results of the save are as follows.
Disabled: A disabled character is conscious, but can only take a single move or standard action each turn (but not both, nor can she take full-round actions). She moves at half speed. Taking move actions doesn't risk further injury, but if a disabled character takes any standard action (or any other action the DM deems strenuous, including some free actions such as casting a quickened spell), she must succeed on a Fortitude save (against the same DC as the save made when reduced to 0 hit points) to remain disabled; otherwise, she becomes dying after she completes the action. If a disabled character takes any lethal damage, she must make a new Fortitude save (DC 10, +2 per 10 points of damage dealt by the attack or effect), but any result other than dead means the character is now dying. A disabled character who is dealt (or who is currently suffering from) any nonlethal damage becomes unconscious (since the character's nonlethal damage now exceeds her hit points) but does not begin dying.
Dying: A dying character is unconscious and near death. Each round on his turn, a dying character must make a Fortitude save (DC 10, +1 per turn after the first) to become stable.
If the character fails the save, he dies.
If the character succeeds on the save by less than 5, he does not die but does not improve. He is still dying and must continue to make Fortitude saves every round.
If the character succeeds on the save by 5 or more but by less than 10, he becomes stable but remains unconscious.
If the character succeeds on the save by 10 or more, he becomes conscious and disabled.
Another character can make a dying character stable by suceeding on a DC 15 Heal check as a standard action (which provokes attacks of opportunity).

I don't like the way nonlethal damage is counted. So, when your nonlethal damage equals or exceeds your current hit points, you must make a fortitude save (DC 10 +2 per 10 points of damage dealt by the last attack or effect). Success means the character is staggered, failure indicates that they are unconscious. Failure by 10 or more means the character has suffered a concussion (a condition I will need to design myself, though I'm thinking that mental ability score damage/drain might be appropriate) in addition to the unconscious condition.

Either way, here is the Die Hard feat, unmodified.

Benefit: When reduced to between -1 and -9 hit points, you automatically become stable. You don't have to roll d% to see if you lose 1 hit point each round.
When reduced to negative hit points, you may choose to act as if you were disabled, rather than dying. You must make this decision as soon as you are reduced to negative hit points (even if it isn't your turn). If you do not choose to act as if you were disabled, you immediately fall unconscious.
When using this feat, you can take either a single move or standard action each turn, but not both, and you cannot take a full round action. You can take a move action without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action (or any other action the DM deems as strenuous, including some free actions, such as casting a quickened spell) you take 1 point of damage after completing the act. If you reach -10 hit points, you immediately die.

Now, an attempt to rewrite it directly to the new rules.

Benefit: When reduced to 0 hit points and suffering from the dying condition, you automatally become stable, even if you succeed your Fortitude save by less than 5.
When reduced to 0 hit points, you may choose to act as if you were disabled, rather than dying. You must make this decision as soon as you are reduced to negative hit points (even if it isn't your turn). If you do not choose to act as if you were disabled, you immediately fall unconscious (but do not have to make further fortitude saves to determine your condition).
When using this feat, you can take either a single move or standard action each turn, but not both, and you cannot take a full-round action. You can take a move action without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action (or any other the DM deems as strenuous, including some free actions, such as casting a quickened spell) you must make a fortitude save (DC 2 per 10 points of damage dealt by the last attack or effect, +1 per strenuous action taken); failure indicates you are dead. If you take any lethal damage, you must make a new Fortitude save (DC +2 per 10 points of damage dealt by the attack or effect, +1 per strenuous action taken), failure indicates that you are dead.

Now, this looks crazy, but it's taken by converting the original Die Hard to the new rules. When a character is dying, they make fort saves to see if they become stable (but there's a chance they can become conscious and disabled rather than simply becoming stable). Since Die hard makes it so you are automatically stable, any result other than unconsious and stable, or conscious and disabled, means the character is unconscious and stable.

Additionally, when a character is disabled under the new rules, the next attack they are dealt requires them to make a save by the normal rules. Any result other than dead means the character is dying. Die hard makes it so the character can choose to be disabled rather than dying.

I feel that this looks like too much. I'd rather rewrite Die Hard for the new rules to keep it's original intention without making it too powerful.

First off, I feel that Endurance should grant it's +4 bonus to the Fortitude saves required when reduced to 0 HP, while dying, or while stable. Die Hard could simply increase this bonus, and make it so characters who are disabled and suffer lethal damage don't automatically become dying or dead; if they successfully save they remain disabled. But without some sort of scaling DC, characters with Die Hard could stay alive for ever (until they roll a 1 on their save, which may take 20 rounds or more).

See what my worries are now?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xeviat-DM 12-21-04, 01:31 AM	How would you suggest making this mixture? Also, how do you think the Die Hard feat should function under the Alternate Death and Dying rules? Thanks.
Xeviat-DM 12-21-04, 03:01 PM	I'm sorry, I should have asked everybody how you think these two mechanics would work together. Do you think they would produce more compelling combats? As a DM, I'm tired of seeing players have no fear of somebody drawing a knife on them, unless they have reason to believe it is poisoned or very magical. By using the Wound/Vitality mechanic, even a knife can be feared. Additionally, I've been enjoying the Alternate Death and Dying rules. Rather than automatically going under at -1 hp, the varient allows Fortitude saves to stay up. My question is this: when combined with the Alternate Death and Dying rules and the Wound/Vitality rules, how would the Die Hard feat work?
Xeviat-DM 01-08-05, 12:39 AM	Nothing? This won't weaken the Wound/Vitality system too much? I do understand that it will make it closer to the standard HP system, but will it be too much like the standard HP system?
Tuneless Bard 01-08-05, 11:30 AM	Seems like a fine mix, if you use strict WP.VP system as listed in the book, just use the alternate death and dying rules when you hit 0wp... die hard becomes pretty weak though...I would allow the character with die hard to avoid having to roll to stabilize...and he is not disabled....but if he gets hit again, he's dead... or just play like the character cant be stunned from a wp hit...
Mind Rogue 01-08-05, 12:21 PM	Well, diehard lets you act normally when you are disabled or dying, and with the death and dying variant, you can still become disabled and dying, so a character with diehard wouldn't really be gimped. Making it so that he isn't stunned when he takes wound point damage does seem appropriate. If you still feal this isn't enough, give him a +4 bonus on his fort saves to resist dying or something.
Xeviat-DM 01-09-05, 04:57 AM	My problem is that Diehard might be too powerful. Each time they take a strenuous action while they are disabled, nothing will happen unless they fail their fort save and reach dead. Some sort of round based increase to their fort save for this situation seems appropriate. Endurance should already apply to this sort of save.
Tuneless Bard 01-09-05, 08:39 AM	I certinely think it is no different than standard... you dont have to make saves for making strenuous actions at 0 hp with diehard....why should you at 0 wp with diehard? its just that with standard, you might be able to take a hit and still be up... you take a hit with the alternate rules and your dead.
Xeviat-DM 01-09-05, 09:07 PM	THE FORTITUDE SAVE When a character's hit points are reduced to 0, he must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10, +2 per 10 points of damage dealt by the attack or effect). Success means the character is disabled; failure indicates that he is dying. Failure by 10 or more means the character is dead (if the character rolls a natural 1, he is dying. Calculate the numeric result; if he missed the DC by 10 or more, he is dead). The possible results of the save are as follows. Disabled: A disabled character is conscious, but can only take a single move or standard action each turn (but not both, nor can she take full-round actions). She moves at half speed. Taking move actions doesn't risk further injury, but if a disabled character takes any standard action (or any other action the DM deems strenuous, including some free actions such as casting a quickened spell), she must succeed on a Fortitude save (against the same DC as the save made when reduced to 0 hit points) to remain disabled; otherwise, she becomes dying after she completes the action. If a disabled character takes any lethal damage, she must make a new Fortitude save (DC 10, +2 per 10 points of damage dealt by the attack or effect), but any result other than dead means the character is now dying. A disabled character who is dealt (or who is currently suffering from) any nonlethal damage becomes unconscious (since the character's nonlethal damage now exceeds her hit points) but does not begin dying. Dying: A dying character is unconscious and near death. Each round on his turn, a dying character must make a Fortitude save (DC 10, +1 per turn after the first) to become stable. If the character fails the save, he dies. If the character succeeds on the save by less than 5, he does not die but does not improve. He is still dying and must continue to make Fortitude saves every round. If the character succeeds on the save by 5 or more but by less than 10, he becomes stable but remains unconscious. If the character succeeds on the save by 10 or more, he becomes conscious and disabled. Another character can make a dying character stable by suceeding on a DC 15 Heal check as a standard action (which provokes attacks of opportunity). I don't like the way nonlethal damage is counted. So, when your nonlethal damage equals or exceeds your current hit points, you must make a fortitude save (DC 10 +2 per 10 points of damage dealt by the last attack or effect). Success means the character is staggered, failure indicates that they are unconscious. Failure by 10 or more means the character has suffered a concussion (a condition I will need to design myself, though I'm thinking that mental ability score damage/drain might be appropriate) in addition to the unconscious condition. Either way, here is the Die Hard feat, unmodified. Benefit: When reduced to between -1 and -9 hit points, you automatically become stable. You don't have to roll d% to see if you lose 1 hit point each round. When reduced to negative hit points, you may choose to act as if you were disabled, rather than dying. You must make this decision as soon as you are reduced to negative hit points (even if it isn't your turn). If you do not choose to act as if you were disabled, you immediately fall unconscious. When using this feat, you can take either a single move or standard action each turn, but not both, and you cannot take a full round action. You can take a move action without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action (or any other action the DM deems as strenuous, including some free actions, such as casting a quickened spell) you take 1 point of damage after completing the act. If you reach -10 hit points, you immediately die. Now, an attempt to rewrite it directly to the new rules. Benefit: When reduced to 0 hit points and suffering from the dying condition, you automatally become stable, even if you succeed your Fortitude save by less than 5. When reduced to 0 hit points, you may choose to act as if you were disabled, rather than dying. You must make this decision as soon as you are reduced to negative hit points (even if it isn't your turn). If you do not choose to act as if you were disabled, you immediately fall unconscious (but do not have to make further fortitude saves to determine your condition). When using this feat, you can take either a single move or standard action each turn, but not both, and you cannot take a full-round action. You can take a move action without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action (or any other the DM deems as strenuous, including some free actions, such as casting a quickened spell) you must make a fortitude save (DC 2 per 10 points of damage dealt by the last attack or effect, +1 per strenuous action taken); failure indicates you are dead. If you take any lethal damage, you must make a new Fortitude save (DC +2 per 10 points of damage dealt by the attack or effect, +1 per strenuous action taken), failure indicates that you are dead. Now, this looks crazy, but it's taken by converting the original Die Hard to the new rules. When a character is dying, they make fort saves to see if they become stable (but there's a chance they can become conscious and disabled rather than simply becoming stable). Since Die hard makes it so you are automatically stable, any result other than unconsious and stable, or conscious and disabled, means the character is unconscious and stable. Additionally, when a character is disabled under the new rules, the next attack they are dealt requires them to make a save by the normal rules. Any result other than dead means the character is dying. Die hard makes it so the character can choose to be disabled rather than dying. I feel that this looks like too much. I'd rather rewrite Die Hard for the new rules to keep it's original intention without making it too powerful. First off, I feel that Endurance should grant it's +4 bonus to the Fortitude saves required when reduced to 0 HP, while dying, or while stable. Die Hard could simply increase this bonus, and make it so characters who are disabled and suffer lethal damage don't automatically become dying or dead; if they successfully save they remain disabled. But without some sort of scaling DC, characters with Die Hard could stay alive for ever (until they roll a 1 on their save, which may take 20 rounds or more). See what my worries are now?