Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Freethink 04-19-07, 10:40 AM	Dear folks, I'm happy to emerge from the lurking shadows with a barrage of insane questions, the first happening to be, is it possible (balanced, thematically sound, sensible) to set up a modified version of the Vow of Poverty feat that keeps the core idea (giving up almost all character benefits from money and items, in exchange for a fixed set of magical inborn improvements), but discarding the ultra-good alignment restriction ? Personally I'm a CN kind of person that prefers neutral or evil antihero character types, I might find the RP challenge of ascetism interesting but I know I couldn't stomach RP the righteousness of the exalted alignment. Is it possible to divorce the dedication to eschew money and magic items from altruism in this feat setup ?? I was thinking of a modified VoP variant that gives up the bonus exalted feats, but is open to any alignment and lets the ascetic character redistribute his part of the booty among other PCs instead of wasting it on the stinking widows and orphans.
Selgard 04-19-07, 10:51 AM	Never to other PC's, but perhaps to some other group/organization that isn't within any PC's control. at least, that'd be my ruling on the matter. I could easily go for a non-good VoP.. but i'd never let you use it as a means to both gain power, and expand the wealth of the group beyond what it should be. or if I did, then suddenly the group would start finding itself with loot worth (people in group - people with modified VoP feat)
RobbyPants 04-19-07, 10:57 AM	My only problem with it is that you have to have a reason for gaining some type of compenstation for giving up material possesions. With VoP, the idea is that you are being blessed by a higher power for your exalted behavior. It's not like poor commoners with nothing to their name get a huge AC boost and bonus exalted feats; they're just poor. Likewise, a CN (or really, any alignment) PC that gives up material possesions would just become poor. I would think that in some way, you would need to attract the attention of a higher power, and gain sponsorship in some form, to help offset being poor (AC boost, extra feats, whatever). I'm not saying it can't be done, but rather, that you need to come up with a good RP reason the character should get something in return for forsaking wealth.
Freethink 04-19-07, 11:32 AM	Well, game-balance-wise I was figuring that giving up the possibility to use wealth and magic items for personal improvement was sacrifice enough to pay for the set of improvements VoP bestows (except for exalted feats, that become unsuitable for a nongood alignment) and that the mandate to waste your share of wealth on charities was excessive overkill (in addition to an annoying RP restriction), esp. if one gives up part of the bonuses (the bonus feats). Moreover, for a neutral or evil character it makes little sense to give the magical items he has rightfully earned on strangers instead of rewarding friends, companions, and followers with them, even if he is committed to never use them or benefit from them. Charity begins at home... RP-wise, I was meaning to keep the source of power (blessing from higher _or lower_ powers) largely intact, only redefine it: neutral-ish powers that oversee the kind of career you are engaged in (such as gods of magic for spontaneous caster types, nature gods for druid types, warrior gods for monks, etc.) bless and reward your dedication to do it with inborn abilities only, by giving an extra help.
Babaganouj 04-19-07, 04:24 PM	Remember in 2e (or was it 1e) when Barbarians got bonus XP for destroying magic items? I have no trouble thinking of a 'Luddite' character who would sacrifice his share of the treasure due to a hatred of technology (magic); or an anarchist who despises the organized nature of economics; or an entropist who reveres the slow destruction of all things (like the Doomwalkers in Planescape).
starfire311 04-19-07, 04:46 PM	I think it would be balanced if you removed the exalted reqs, at least as balanced as the current VoP. However, I don't think it would be balanced if you gave all your loot to the other PCs, your share must go bye-bye. and you would need to come up with a reason for it, perhaps you must give it all to a cult, or maybe you made a pact with a devil/demon/dragon, that is giving you this power in return for all your worldly possessions, you skimp and he cuts you off.
Freethink 04-19-07, 07:20 PM	Therefore, the consensus is that for game balance reasons, the character's share of the booty must still be somehow "wasted", but a nongood VoP is quite doable. OK, I'll heed it. Its' going to need some optimization of the party booty division rules. VoP or no VoP, for caster characters, destroying or giving up magical items on a regular basis strikes me as contrary to concept. I see more appropriate for such a character to claim a greater slice of mundane wealth, letting others pick more items, only giving up magical stuff that is truly worthless for the party. Another question, would retooling the character to nonexalted status mandate for removing all bonus nonexalted feats, no compensation, or would a substitution with some amount of bonus regular feats appropriate ? IOW, are bonus VoP feats a payback for being ascetic, or for being exalted ?
NerdNumber1 04-19-07, 08:26 PM	Instead of giving it to the poor, give your stuff directly to beings of power or their organisations. Such beings include but are not limited to deities, celestials, fiends, dragons, mages of unequaled power, other outsiders, etc. Dark powers for the cash that such powers give is an interesting trade.
starfire311 04-19-07, 09:48 PM	Therefore, the consensus is that for game balance reasons, the character's share of the booty must still be somehow "wasted", but a nongood VoP is quite doable. OK, I'll heed it. Its' going to need some optimization of the party booty division rules. VoP or no VoP, for caster characters, destroying or giving up magical items on a regular basis strikes me as contrary to concept. I see more appropriate for such a character to claim a greater slice of mundane wealth, letting others pick more items, only giving up magical stuff that is truly worthless for the party. Another question, would retooling the character to nonexalted status mandate for removing all bonus nonexalted feats, no compensation, or would a substitution with some amount of bonus regular feats appropriate ? IOW, are bonus VoP feats a payback for being ascetic, or for being exalted ? I think overall teh bonus exalted feats are pretty bad, if someone were to home brew exalted feats, then it would be quite worth it, personally I would create a csutom list of feats, based on the power that is granting the VoP. If it were a devil giving the item I would grant some infernal feats , and maybe go through and pick out a few more choice ones that would fit will, perhaps vile feats from BoVD as well. If ti were a dragon, I would allow draconic feats to be taken, and prehaps some metamagic ones as well.
RobbyPants 04-20-07, 09:36 AM	If you're going for a sort of Tyler Durden approach (as others have suggested in these types of threads), consider destroying your share of the treasure. Alternatly, it could be used to fuel a cult, which will ultimately try to destroy more possessions. Of course, a PC like this could be quite annoying in a party, as he'd probably be telling the rest of the party to reject the basic principles of society and to disregard their material possesions. ;)