Monk question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Monk question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zorachus
08-13-04, 12:06 AM If you were going to give a Monk a +1/lev BAB, what would you have suggest removing from the class? Granted, it would be a lot, but the idea is more of a core martial artist, rather than an ascetic with a myriad of mystical powers. Notions?
Ranger REG
08-13-04, 03:21 AM Still Mind
Purity of Body
Wholeness of Body
Diamond Body
Abundant Step
Diamond Soul
Timeless Body
Tongue of the Sun and Moon
Empty Body
11th-level Flurry of Blows ability
Zorachus
08-13-04, 08:45 AM See, though, the Flurry is one of the key things I'd want to see kept in, as it goes to the martial arts-based combat effectiveness of the class.

What about getting rid of the Slow Fall and one or more of the feats, in addition to what you listed, instead?
Ranger REG
08-13-04, 05:08 PM Note that I said "11th-level Flurry of Blows ability."

Read the entire Flurry of Blows descripton.
Zorachus
08-13-04, 06:01 PM Oh, I'm well aware...that's the level where they get an another attack. My point was that I wanted to strip all of the extraneous stuff out of the class, keeping the martial arts core intact, and upping the BAB. I wasn't concerned with things like Slow Fall and a few extra feats (at 1st., 2nd., and 6th.), but removing any of the actual martial combat works counter to the concept.
Zorachus
08-13-04, 06:01 PM Oh, I'm well aware...that's the level where they get another attack. My point was that I wanted to strip all of the extraneous stuff out of the class, keeping the martial arts core intact, and upping the BAB. I wasn't concerned with things like Slow Fall and a few extra feats (at 1st., 2nd., and 6th.), but removing any of the actual martial combat works counter to the concept.
Ranger REG
08-14-04, 03:03 AM Counter to what? You said you wanted a straight-up martial artist who are not trained in monastery but a dojo in town, and you're giving it the best BAB progression.
Zorachus
08-14-04, 12:29 PM The idea: A pure martial artist, rather than an ascetic with mystical powers.

The suggested method: Removing mystic abilities in exchange for a better BAB.

Now, what would give you the impression that I'd want to remove one of the abilities directly related to attacks per round, such that the character would have fewer attacks than the normal Monk?

There are only a few things which make up the Monk's martial arts suite:

1.) AC Bonus due to Wisdom, and its increase with level
2.) Unarmed Strike, and its increase with level
3.) Flurry of Blows, and its increase with level
4.) Use of Monk weapons

Even the Fast Movement and bonus Feats are not definitive; those could go. Certainly, they, or something like Slow Fall should go before one of the core things that makes the character fierce with martial arts.

I don't really think a character that had those four things, and a good BAB (+1/1), would be inherently unbalancing. The implication of my question, really, is what else they should get besides those four things, in order to have a character that was balanced.

Make sense?
jagggar
08-14-04, 09:26 PM Perhaps the Monk bonus feats, only spread out a bit more. Also perhaps the Fast Movement, but not as fast as the Monk, like half as fast and does not progress epicly.
flyingmoose
08-15-04, 05:36 AM Start with the Fighter.

Drop all proficiencies except for simple weapons and light exotic weapons (i.e. nunchaku, siangham, sai, etc.)

Drop Handle Animal and Ride from the class skill list. Add Balance, Concentration, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion), and Tumble.

Reduce Hit Die to d8.

Add Reflex and Will as good saves.

Give them the monk's unarmed strike and AC bonus.

Alignment requirement of Any Nonchaotic.

There's your Martial Artist. Most of the feats an unarmed fighter would take are available as fighter bonus feats anyway.
shadowelf
08-15-04, 07:27 AM Originally posted by flyingmoose
Start with the Fighter.

Drop all proficiencies except for simple weapons and light exotic weapons (i.e. nunchaku, siangham, sai, etc.)

Drop Handle Animal and Ride from the class skill list. Add Balance, Concentration, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion), and Tumble.

Reduce Hit Die to d8.

Add Reflex and Will as good saves.

Give them the monk's unarmed strike and AC bonus.

Alignment requirement of Any Nonchaotic.

There's your Martial Artist. Most of the feats an unarmed fighter would take are available as fighter bonus feats anyway.

You also need to take away at least some of the bonus Feats as well. You must make sure that this new class doesn't make all the fighters redundant. If you let it be more powerful then it will.

And you should remove Armour and Shield proficiencies (this just formalises how the character should be played)
mhacdebhandia
08-16-04, 04:38 AM One of my DMs is an inveterate tinkerer, and he has a non-supernatural martial artist on his website here (http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/martialartist.htm).

His site also contains a great many martial arts styles, martial arts and combat feats, all of which you can access from that page.
shadeling
08-16-04, 05:38 AM Originally posted by Zorachus
Now, what would give you the impression that I'd want to remove one of the abilities directly related to attacks per round, such that the character would have fewer attacks than the normal Monk?
[/B]

Why would the character have fewer attacks than a normal monk by removing the 11th level Greater Flurry? That character would actually have just as many attacks as a monk when all is said and done, but at the good BAB, since the previous flurry abilities remove the penalty, and allow an extra attack at highest base attack bonus.
Zorachus
08-16-04, 09:45 AM Shadeling:

Oki, fewer attacks at the highest relative bonus. My point remains the same. Removing one of the four things I listed above is what I want to avoid.

mhacdebhandia:

Thank you; that is very helpful.
flyingmoose
08-17-04, 02:01 AM Originally posted by shadowelf
And you should remove Armour and Shield proficiencies (this just formalises how the character should be played)

Yeah, that's why I said "Drop all proficiencies except for blah blah blah."

I thought about giving them bonus feats at 1st, 4th, 7th, 10th, 13th, etc. rather than every even level, but it seemed like too big an adjustment.
Jarlaxle_The_Rogue
08-18-04, 06:12 PM To be honest, the monk is already a very able fighter class and to make it better at fighting might be a bit unbalanced.
jkovacik
08-19-04, 11:00 AM Honestly? I don't think you need to do much more than drop the monk AC (+wisdom) bonus and evasion/improved evasion.

At low levels, the monk will hit slightly more frequently, but that's it. At higher levels, the monk will dish out more damage (since it hits more frequently), but will take more damage as well. Monks are not supposed to be able to take a punishment - they either drop their opponent quickly or they themselves drop.

It even makes logical sense: the monk is more focused on offense, so it loses some of it's best defensive abilities.

Since imp. evasion is so nice, I'd even consider swapping imp. evasion for weapon specialization (unarmed) to boost the damage a bit more at the levels where the monk would normally have gotten evasion.
Jinlong
09-01-04, 08:34 PM As I understand it, though, the flurry of blows ability was upped in 3.5 to compensate for the Monk's lower than average BAB. I'd say the 'Greater Flurry' has to be dropped- already, with a character that has a fighter's BAB, better saves, and damage of 2d10 + str, you're really going to overshadow the fighter.

Alternatively, what I'd do is, instead of upping the BAB, allow the Monk to gain ehancement bonuses, naturally, to his unarmed strike, at First level, 5th level, 9th level, 13th level, and 17th level - the levels when a Monk's BAB suffers. This way, you don't need to worry about the iterative attack issue, but get the same attack as a fighter wielding a NON-MAGICAL sword. This does mean that you can't enhance the unarmed strike any further with magic items- HOWEVER:

Enchantable Unarmed strike + Monk's full Unarmed damage + Full BAB + Greater Flurry = maximum breakage.

You need to eliminate at least one of these factors (in DnD official, the Full BAB, In my suggestion, the enchantable unarmed strikes, in Shadeling's suggestion, the Greater flurry)

Once that's done, drop
disease and poison immunity
spell resistance,
level six bonus feat,
slow fall above 20 ft,
quivering palm,
timeless body,
tongue of sun and moon,
perfect self,
empty body,
Ki strike (lawful)
move speed +10ft to level 10 or so.

Then, lose class skills in knowledge (Religion and arcana), perform, and diplomacy.

I'd allow the Martial artist to take Weapon specialization (unarmed strike) feats as well.
Tzepish
09-02-04, 01:45 AM I'd definitely remove the 11th level Flurry ability. There are ramifications to an attack progression of 20/20/20/15/10/5. Without the ability, the full BAB Monk would have a progression of 20/20/15/10/5, still superior to the Core Monk's 15/15/15/10/15.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zorachus 08-13-04, 12:06 AM	If you were going to give a Monk a +1/lev BAB, what would you have suggest removing from the class? Granted, it would be a lot, but the idea is more of a core martial artist, rather than an ascetic with a myriad of mystical powers. Notions?
Ranger REG 08-13-04, 03:21 AM	Still Mind Purity of Body Wholeness of Body Diamond Body Abundant Step Diamond Soul Timeless Body Tongue of the Sun and Moon Empty Body 11th-level Flurry of Blows ability
Zorachus 08-13-04, 08:45 AM	See, though, the Flurry is one of the key things I'd want to see kept in, as it goes to the martial arts-based combat effectiveness of the class. What about getting rid of the Slow Fall and one or more of the feats, in addition to what you listed, instead?
Ranger REG 08-13-04, 05:08 PM	Note that I said "11th-level Flurry of Blows ability." Read the entire Flurry of Blows descripton.
Zorachus 08-13-04, 06:01 PM	Oh, I'm well aware...that's the level where they get an another attack. My point was that I wanted to strip all of the extraneous stuff out of the class, keeping the martial arts core intact, and upping the BAB. I wasn't concerned with things like Slow Fall and a few extra feats (at 1st., 2nd., and 6th.), but removing any of the actual martial combat works counter to the concept.
Zorachus 08-13-04, 06:01 PM	Oh, I'm well aware...that's the level where they get another attack. My point was that I wanted to strip all of the extraneous stuff out of the class, keeping the martial arts core intact, and upping the BAB. I wasn't concerned with things like Slow Fall and a few extra feats (at 1st., 2nd., and 6th.), but removing any of the actual martial combat works counter to the concept.
Ranger REG 08-14-04, 03:03 AM	Counter to what? You said you wanted a straight-up martial artist who are not trained in monastery but a dojo in town, and you're giving it the best BAB progression.
Zorachus 08-14-04, 12:29 PM	The idea: A pure martial artist, rather than an ascetic with mystical powers. The suggested method: Removing mystic abilities in exchange for a better BAB. Now, what would give you the impression that I'd want to remove one of the abilities directly related to attacks per round, such that the character would have fewer attacks than the normal Monk? There are only a few things which make up the Monk's martial arts suite: 1.) AC Bonus due to Wisdom, and its increase with level 2.) Unarmed Strike, and its increase with level 3.) Flurry of Blows, and its increase with level 4.) Use of Monk weapons Even the Fast Movement and bonus Feats are not definitive; those could go. Certainly, they, or something like Slow Fall should go before one of the core things that makes the character fierce with martial arts. I don't really think a character that had those four things, and a good BAB (+1/1), would be inherently unbalancing. The implication of my question, really, is what else they should get besides those four things, in order to have a character that was balanced. Make sense?
jagggar 08-14-04, 09:26 PM	Perhaps the Monk bonus feats, only spread out a bit more. Also perhaps the Fast Movement, but not as fast as the Monk, like half as fast and does not progress epicly.
flyingmoose 08-15-04, 05:36 AM	Start with the Fighter. Drop all proficiencies except for simple weapons and light exotic weapons (i.e. nunchaku, siangham, sai, etc.) Drop Handle Animal and Ride from the class skill list. Add Balance, Concentration, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion), and Tumble. Reduce Hit Die to d8. Add Reflex and Will as good saves. Give them the monk's unarmed strike and AC bonus. Alignment requirement of Any Nonchaotic. There's your Martial Artist. Most of the feats an unarmed fighter would take are available as fighter bonus feats anyway.
shadowelf 08-15-04, 07:27 AM	Originally posted by flyingmoose Start with the Fighter. Drop all proficiencies except for simple weapons and light exotic weapons (i.e. nunchaku, siangham, sai, etc.) Drop Handle Animal and Ride from the class skill list. Add Balance, Concentration, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion), and Tumble. Reduce Hit Die to d8. Add Reflex and Will as good saves. Give them the monk's unarmed strike and AC bonus. Alignment requirement of Any Nonchaotic. There's your Martial Artist. Most of the feats an unarmed fighter would take are available as fighter bonus feats anyway. You also need to take away at least some of the bonus Feats as well. You must make sure that this new class doesn't make all the fighters redundant. If you let it be more powerful then it will. And you should remove Armour and Shield proficiencies (this just formalises how the character should be played)
mhacdebhandia 08-16-04, 04:38 AM	One of my DMs is an inveterate tinkerer, and he has a non-supernatural martial artist on his website here (http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/martialartist.htm). His site also contains a great many martial arts styles, martial arts and combat feats, all of which you can access from that page.
shadeling 08-16-04, 05:38 AM	Originally posted by Zorachus Now, what would give you the impression that I'd want to remove one of the abilities directly related to attacks per round, such that the character would have fewer attacks than the normal Monk? [/B] Why would the character have fewer attacks than a normal monk by removing the 11th level Greater Flurry? That character would actually have just as many attacks as a monk when all is said and done, but at the good BAB, since the previous flurry abilities remove the penalty, and allow an extra attack at highest base attack bonus.
Zorachus 08-16-04, 09:45 AM	Shadeling: Oki, fewer attacks at the highest relative bonus. My point remains the same. Removing one of the four things I listed above is what I want to avoid. mhacdebhandia: Thank you; that is very helpful.
flyingmoose 08-17-04, 02:01 AM	Originally posted by shadowelf And you should remove Armour and Shield proficiencies (this just formalises how the character should be played) Yeah, that's why I said "Drop all proficiencies except for blah blah blah." I thought about giving them bonus feats at 1st, 4th, 7th, 10th, 13th, etc. rather than every even level, but it seemed like too big an adjustment.
Jarlaxle_The_Rogue 08-18-04, 06:12 PM	To be honest, the monk is already a very able fighter class and to make it better at fighting might be a bit unbalanced.
jkovacik 08-19-04, 11:00 AM	Honestly? I don't think you need to do much more than drop the monk AC (+wisdom) bonus and evasion/improved evasion. At low levels, the monk will hit slightly more frequently, but that's it. At higher levels, the monk will dish out more damage (since it hits more frequently), but will take more damage as well. Monks are not supposed to be able to take a punishment - they either drop their opponent quickly or they themselves drop. It even makes logical sense: the monk is more focused on offense, so it loses some of it's best defensive abilities. Since imp. evasion is so nice, I'd even consider swapping imp. evasion for weapon specialization (unarmed) to boost the damage a bit more at the levels where the monk would normally have gotten evasion.
Jinlong 09-01-04, 08:34 PM	As I understand it, though, the flurry of blows ability was upped in 3.5 to compensate for the Monk's lower than average BAB. I'd say the 'Greater Flurry' has to be dropped- already, with a character that has a fighter's BAB, better saves, and damage of 2d10 + str, you're really going to overshadow the fighter. Alternatively, what I'd do is, instead of upping the BAB, allow the Monk to gain ehancement bonuses, naturally, to his unarmed strike, at First level, 5th level, 9th level, 13th level, and 17th level - the levels when a Monk's BAB suffers. This way, you don't need to worry about the iterative attack issue, but get the same attack as a fighter wielding a NON-MAGICAL sword. This does mean that you can't enhance the unarmed strike any further with magic items- HOWEVER: Enchantable Unarmed strike + Monk's full Unarmed damage + Full BAB + Greater Flurry = maximum breakage. You need to eliminate at least one of these factors (in DnD official, the Full BAB, In my suggestion, the enchantable unarmed strikes, in Shadeling's suggestion, the Greater flurry) Once that's done, drop disease and poison immunity spell resistance, level six bonus feat, slow fall above 20 ft, quivering palm, timeless body, tongue of sun and moon, perfect self, empty body, Ki strike (lawful) move speed +10ft to level 10 or so. Then, lose class skills in knowledge (Religion and arcana), perform, and diplomacy. I'd allow the Martial artist to take Weapon specialization (unarmed strike) feats as well.
Tzepish 09-02-04, 01:45 AM	I'd definitely remove the 11th level Flurry ability. There are ramifications to an attack progression of 20/20/20/15/10/5. Without the ability, the full BAB Monk would have a progression of 20/20/15/10/5, still superior to the Core Monk's 15/15/15/10/15.