Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rhomphaia 03-14-06, 02:00 PM	I was thinking the other night that the rules for immersion in lava, acid and the like, while working well, lacked a certain amount of deadliness to them, like they would have in real life. These liquids are very dangerous in the real world, and with good reason. Also, with the abstract hit point system like what D&D uses, they way these liquids kill and the lasting effects of their damage are in no way reflected. I wanted to make these dangers have lasting effects, even if someone survived. This is the rule I came up with. When immersed in lava or other hot liquid (such as molten iron or boiling oil) the subject's hit points are automatically reduced to 1 (plus any figure from hardness, energy resistance or damage reduction). Every round thereafter, the character takes damage to all ability scores dependant upon the temperature of the liquid he/she is immersed in. The formula for this is as follows. The character takes 1 point of damage for every 100 degrees (farenheight) of the liquid per round, do not count the first 100 degrees. Some sample liquids are below. Boiling Water (212 F): 1 point per round. Boiling Oil (around 300 F): 2 points per round. Molten Lead (around 450 F): 3 points per round. Molten Iron (roughly 1,800 F): 17 points per round. Lava/Molten Rock (2,200 F or higher): 21 points per round. Also, you can scale the potency of acids for this same effect. If you want a weak acid, then have immersion be equivilent to boiling water. A strong acid would be more like molten iron. The effects of damage are as follows. If one of a character's ability scores other than Constitution is reduced to zero, the character passes out and that score is 'scarred'. A scarred score does not heal as it should, taking twice as long to do so and all DCs for saving throws to ward off permanent drain are increased by 2. If a character's Constitution is reduced to zero, then they die. Energy resistance works against this ability score damage, but at half (round down) efficiency. This will provide some protection against the intense heat or acid, but not total. The character will still need to get out of the liquid, but has more time to do so and survive if properly protected. For creatures immune to ability score damage, they still take no ability score damage nor are their hit points reduced to 1 upon immersion. Instead, they take damage equal to the amounts indicated above, in d6, to their hit points every round. For example, a vampire falling into molten lead would take 3d6 points of hit point damage per round. Does this rule sound alright?
Surgo 03-14-06, 03:06 PM	When I think of realism in D&D, I reach for my axe. However, this I actually like for the most part.
AT-AT Assault 03-14-06, 03:22 PM	Very Scary. With this a 20th level Barbarian or Fighter can no longer take a leisurley swim through lava. I like it.
lostone 03-15-06, 10:55 AM	Very Scary. With this a 20th level Barbarian or Fighter can no longer take a leisurley swim through lava. I like it.I wouldn't call 20d6 damage (average 70) per round minor. Even after getting out of it you continue to take an average of 35 damage per round for at least 1 round. 105 damage (give or take) if you are in a combat situation is serious no matter how it is received, even for a 20th level Barbarian (and 105 damage is lethal to many 20th level spellcasters with their piddly 20d4 hit points). There is no such thing as a leisurely swim through lava unless you are immune to fire damage. Lava Effects Lava or magma deals 2d6 points of damage per round of exposure, except in the case of total immersion (such as when a character falls into the crater of an active volcano), which deals 20d6 points of damage per round. Damage from magma continues for 1d3 rounds after exposure ceases, but this additional damage is only half of that dealt during actual contact (that is, 1d6 or 10d6 points per round). An immunity or resistance to fire serves as an immunity to lava or magma. However, a creature immune to fire might still drown if completely immersed in lava (see Drowning, below). But high level characters can survive that, which allows them to be more heroic. And since D&D is a fantasy game intended to set the players up as heroes, I see nothing wrong with the rules as they are. The system proposed in the first post is basically guaranteed to kill any characters immersed in lava in two rounds. When immersed in lava or other hot liquid (such as molten iron or boiling oil) the subject's hit points are automatically reduced to 1 Every round thereafter, the character takes damage to all ability scores Lava/Molten Rock (2,200 or higher): 21 points per roundRemember, if your constitution his 0, you're dead. 21 points per round to constitution will kill most characters on the first round of ability damage, the rest will likely die on the second round unless they are epic level or optimized strictly for high constitution. In any event it is unlikely any character will be able to escape after the first round of ability damage since most characters have at least 1 ability (dump stat) below 21, even at 20th level, and getting any ability other than constitution to 0 renders the character helpless and will sit there taking more ability damage until you're dead (likely the next round). So short story, if you fall in lava and can't escape that first round, might as well roll up a new character, this one's toast. While any loss is debilitating, losing all points in an ability score can be devastating. • Strength 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He lies helpless on the ground. • Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless. • Constitution 0 means that the character is dead. • Intelligence 0 means that the character cannot think and is unconscious in a coma-like stupor, helpless. • Wisdom 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a deep sleep filled with nightmares, helpless. • Charisma 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a catatonic, coma-like stupor, helpless.One flaw in the proposed system is you don't take hit point damage after that first initial fall into the lava pool, so if the character is immune to ability damage (like undead are), you can swim around indefinitely because you're no longer taking fire damage to hit points. You don't even have to be immune to fire, just ability damage and you could swim across lakes of lava.
Rhomphaia 03-15-06, 01:56 PM	But high level characters can survive that, which allows them to be more heroic. And since D&D is a fantasy game intended to set the players up as heroes, I see nothing wrong with the rules as they are. The system proposed in the first post is basically guaranteed to kill any characters immersed in lava in two rounds. I have been trying to figure out how to take fire or acid resistance into account here but still have the characters take some ability damage. I admit this system isn't perfect, but I really did want immersion in these liquids to be a lot more deadly. I would edit that in when I think of something. Remember, if your constitution his 0, you're dead. 21 points per round to constitution will kill most characters on the first round of ability damage, the rest will likely die on the second round unless they are epic level or optimized strictly for high constitution. In any event it is unlikely any character will be able to escape after the first round of ability damage since most characters have at least 1 ability (dump stat) below 21, even at 20th level, and getting any ability other than constitution to 0 renders the character helpless and will sit there taking more ability damage until you're dead (likely the next round). So short story, if you fall in lava and can't escape that first round, might as well roll up a new character, this one's toast. All of this was kind of the idea of the variant rule. One flaw in the proposed system is you don't take hit point damage after that first initial fall into the lava pool, so if the character is immune to ability damage (like undead are), you can swim around indefinitely because you're no longer taking fire damage to hit points. You don't even have to be immune to fire, just ability damage and you could swim across lakes of lava. This flaw doesn't exist. I added in a provision where creatures immune to ability damage take hit point damage instead. I could have worded it better though...in fact, I think I will go do that now...
lostone 03-15-06, 02:56 PM	I admit this system isn't perfect, but I really did want immersion in these liquids to be a lot more deadly. You could just increase the damage cap of 20d6, or keep the 20d6 and throw in the ability damage. As for the damage reduction, allow that to apply to the ability damage. Personally I use the 20d6 as written and make sure to point out that most of their gear is destroyed. That bag of holding isn't fire resistent, it and everything in it is gone. Your weapon can't take that much damage and melts. Your clothing is gone, your bag of gold is gone, your hair is gone, your armor is gone, your holy symbol is gone, your spell component pouch and spellbook are gone, etc. Getting dropped in lava or acid is a Bad Thing(TM).
AT-AT Assault 03-15-06, 03:49 PM	Well lostone, if you didnt pick it up from my name, here it is: Im not a native DnD player, so I dont know all the rules of DnD, so I have to base most of my knowledge on games based on DnD(SW and D20M), so thanks for posting that rule(sifting through the SRD is a pain when you want to learn a game). But at 20th level, it should almost be assumed that if a party is going to knowlingly be around lava that they use their vast amounts of treasure to prepare accordingly(thus lava almost becomes like a placid lake if you know you're going to encounter it, and that isnt right, even in a fantasy game).
lostone 03-16-06, 07:45 AM	Well lostone, if you didnt pick it up from my name, here it is: Im not a native DnD player, so I dont know all the rules of DnD, so I have to base most of my knowledge on games based on DnD(SW and D20M), so thanks for posting that rule(sifting through the SRD is a pain when you want to learn a game). Not a native D&D player? I hadn't noticed (referring to your name). :D I reply to every post assuming the poster is familiar with most rules. Which rule were you not familiar with? But at 20th level, it should almost be assumed that if a party is going to knowlingly be around lava that they use their vast amounts of treasure to prepare accordingly(thus lava almost becomes like a placid lake if you know you're going to encounter it, and that isnt right, even in a fantasy game).I don't penalize my players for preparing adequately. In Star Wars d20 do you penalize your players for wearing force fields (or other protective gear) if they expect to be going into an area with high radiation? Do you make the radiation more lethal to neutralize any benefit from the protective gear? I see it as basically the same thing in a different game. You wouldn't see a member of bomb squad casually stroll into a building to disarm a bomb without his protective gear if he has time to put it on (unless he's a suicidial gutsy hero-type), and if he does the bomb doesn't suddenly increase its damage potential.
starfire311 03-16-06, 01:31 PM	I dont think I liek this rule, jsut doesn't make as much sense as RAW. So under this rule you got uber Dwarf Barbarian at 20th level with like 400 HP while raging, gets immersed in lava and loses 399 HP and gets out the next round.... and you have a sickly con 4 Commoner with 1 HP gets immersed in lava and gets out the next round without even being hurt? I'll take the raw were the dwarf takes 140 HP damage on average even if he gets out right away and the sickly commoner is a charcoal briquette heck even this super dwarf will not survive very long in Lava on average 70 points a round is dead after 7 rounds. 20th level fighter with 20 con has on average 215 HP... he will die if he can die even if he is in lava for 1 round if he gets some unlucky rolls IE 1st round 20D6 takes 90 damage 2nd round he gets out and rolls 3 on d3 so he takes 10d6 each round for 3 rounds. takes 45 damage 3rd round takes another 45 damage on 10d6 4th round takes 45 and is at -20 Yes these were some bad rolls, but there is a chance that a 20th level fighter dies from 1 round of exposure, that seems deadly enough to me.
Kem 03-17-06, 12:37 PM	Don't forget those massive damage saves. Not too big but a 1 fails :)
mrurbanitesmiley 03-17-06, 12:47 PM	I like this rule. Anyone other than an insanely power super-being should die INSTANTLY in contact with lava. I mean, Lava is 2200 degree fahrenheit. Now, I would change it so it doesn't drop automatically to 1, and instead deals 20d6 damage AND the 21 damage to all stats. Mainly because it's weird for it to drop a harm effect.
AT-AT Assault 03-17-06, 02:14 PM	Lostone, what I mean is, that yes 20d6 looks pretty scary by itself, but at such high levels you also have to take into account what the players may have. At 20th level, a well prepared Fighter pretty much laughs off lava. With the OP's variant it gives the GM more control of the game without defying the rules(which should never be done, otherwise why bother with rules at all?). I know most of the rules to DnD, as its very Similar to D20M and SW, but I tend to think in SW terms with WP/VP, so most things pertaining to damage in DnD I dont know very well. Even a Half-Gold Dragon shouldnt treat lava as a playground, no matter how magical you are. :P About Radiation, its rather arbitrary. If the level is Lethal(level 5) a suit might reduce it to Level 4(Lethal it kills you in a few hours upon exposure, constant exposure kills you in a few rounds, so that much hard radiation is hard to stop), which may end up killing you anyway. So to finish, I like the OP's idea as it puts about an equal amount of power in both the GM's and Players' hands.
Kem 03-17-06, 08:32 PM	Even a Half-Gold Dragon shouldnt treat lava as a playground, no matter how magical you are. :P If they are immune to fire why SHOULDN'T they be immune to Lava Damage? They breath frikkin FIRE.
Rhomphaia 03-17-06, 08:40 PM	If they are immune to fire why SHOULDN'T they be immune to Lava Damage? They breath frikkin FIRE. Well, the burning they are immune to...they can still drown in lava though.
lostone 03-19-06, 09:59 AM	Lostone, what I mean is, that yes 20d6 looks pretty scary by itself, but at such high levels you also have to take into account what the players may have. At 20th level, a well prepared Fighter pretty much laughs off lava. With the OP's variant it gives the GM more control of the game without defying the rules(which should never be done, otherwise why bother with rules at all?).In order to be fair by introducing this house rule, you'd have to give the group advance warning that it is more lethal. If you do that, they'll know there will be lava and might metagame and be more prepared than they would have been otherwise (and it will spoil the surprise when they see the lava). If you spring it on them suddenly, there will be out of character problems, especially if you have a rules lawyer. :) Even a Half-Gold Dragon shouldnt treat lava as a playground, no matter how magical you are. :PThey're immune to fire, it is their playground. So to finish, I like the OP's idea as it puts about an equal amount of power in both the GM's and Players' hands.A DM shouldn't need to change the rules to keep their players in line. High level characters shouldn't be completely crippled or killed by the environment if they prepare for it (there are plenty of magic items and prestige class abilities that negate environment problems). The DM should use the environmental challenges at lower level if they want those, there are plenty of other ways to keep high level characters challenged.
Mnky 03-21-06, 12:36 PM	If you just want more of a challenge for your 20th level characters, you could use molten adamantite or something. I like the 'scarred' ruling though, you would expect lasting damage from a dip in molten lead.
RaspK FOG 03-21-06, 02:22 PM	Well, I actually dislike the rulings; 20d6 per round of immersion is more than adequate, especially considering the fact that most of the hapless few that would ever fall in said lava lack a way to get out of it quick (I still remember the time my sorcerer cast Protection from Fire on one of our wizardly comrades to save another friend who had fallen into a lava-filled pit trap in the safehouse of a powerful wizard). 20d6 happens to be a sort of damage cap for extreme conditions (it happens to be the maximum damage you can take for falling; and there was one person who was recorded for having lived after falling a good ten thousand feet through the air)!
00_Whupass 03-21-06, 02:58 PM	Personally I think that if you're immersed in lava you should be dead. Regardless of level, regardless of HP, you should be dead. Of course I prefer to play in more realisitc gritty games where character death is not uncommon. (Anyone remember Rolemaster?) Were I to propose a "Realistic" rule for immersion in lava it would likely be DC 60 Fortitude save or die, characters who pass their save take 20d12 damage per round. It seems that this is not what most people want, which is precisely why I haven't instituted a rule like this in games I DM, even though I think it adds to the game, its not something that would increase the fun my players are having, which is the bottom line for every rule consideration.
Kem 03-21-06, 03:42 PM	Well, the burning they are immune to...they can still drown in lava though. Which isn't lava damage :)
starfire311 03-22-06, 08:51 AM	Personally I think that if you're immersed in lava you should be dead. Regardless of level, regardless of HP, you should be dead. Of course I prefer to play in more realisitc gritty games where character death is not uncommon. (Anyone remember Rolemaster?) Were I to propose a "Realistic" rule for immersion in lava it would likely be DC 60 Fortitude save or die, characters who pass their save take 20d12 damage per round. It seems that this is not what most people want, which is precisely why I haven't instituted a rule like this in games I DM, even though I think it adds to the game, its not something that would increase the fun my players are having, which is the bottom line for every rule consideration. in the current rules virtually any characher upto 10th level will be killed from 1 round on average.... Average damage from 1 round in Lava is 140 points.... 20d6 for the 1st round and then you get out and take 10D6 for 2 more rounds, That is 40D6 damage from only one round, every round after the 1st you take another 70 points of damage on average... very few characters can survive the 1st round and even fewer the 2nd round. This rule seems quite realistic enough for me. Even some 20th level characters would not survive even if they got out after one round. I know everyone in my 11th level party would die even after getting out after the 1st round.
RaspK FOG 03-22-06, 01:28 PM	in the current rules virtually any characher upto 10th level will be killed from 1 round on average.... Average damage from 1 round in Lava is 140 points.... 20d6 for the 1st round and then you get out and take 10D6 for 2 more rounds, That is 40D6 damage from only one round, every round after the 1st you take another 70 points of damage on average... very few characters can survive the 1st round and even fewer the 2nd round. This rule seems quite realistic enough for me. Even some 20th level characters would not survive even if they got out after one round. I know everyone in my 11th level party would die even after getting out after the 1st round. Well said; considering that the rule is to be looked through the perspective of the theory of great numbers (the greater the sample [in this case, infinite, since that's about how applicable a game mechanic is], the greater the chance of getting exactly the mean of the sample), we can be assured that 20d6 equal 70 points of damage for every round of immersion. The game has 2 classes with d4 HD, 2 with d6 HD, 4 with d8 HD, 2 with d10 HD, and 1 with d12 HD, which means that the weighted mean HD size is nearly equal to the mean and median HD size, or d8, which means that your average character has 20d8 + Con × 20 at 20th level in hp. Supposing that your average character has the elite array and applies either 13 or 12 on Constitution, and increases it by 2 points until 20th level, he would have a +2 Con bonus, for an average (no max for the 1st HD) of 90 hp (HD) + 40 hp (Con), or 130 hp. That means that the character won't survive 2 rounds in the lava - he would reach -10 hp by then! Your heroic fantasy literature barbarian would start off with a 15 and apply all 5 ability increases on it for a total of 20, so such a raging barbarian would have 130 hp (HD) + 180 hp (Con), or 310 hp. Well, he would still not last more than 4 something rounds (not to mention that when not raging, he would only last 3 something rounds with his 230 hp). If we are to take it to the extreme, he might be human and taken Toughness 6 times and Improved Toughness, for an additional 38 hp, which means that he would still die within the above times (nearly 5 and 4 rounds respectively). On the other hand, a scrawny, sickly wizard would have a Constitution score of 8 with no increases applied on it (supposedly), so he would have 50 hp (HD) - 20 hp (Con), or 30 hp. Dead! Final note for those who would start muttering: a round lasts 6 seconds, which means that the aforementioned barbarian with his 5-round lava-bath survived for less than half a minute. If we take magic into account, well, how realistic can you get with magical abilities and conditions!?
starfire311 03-22-06, 01:39 PM	Well said; considering that the rule is to be looked through the perspective of the theory of great numbers (the greater the sample [in this case, infinite, since that's about how applicable a game mechanic is], the greater the chance of getting exactly the mean of the sample), we can be assured that 20d6 equal 70 points of damage for every round of immersion. The game has 2 classes with d4 HD, 2 with d6 HD, 4 with d8 HD, 2 with d10 HD, and 1 with d12 HD, which means that the weighted mean HD size is nearly equal to the mean and median HD size, or d8, which means that your average character has 20d8 + Con × 20 at 20th level in hp. Supposing that your average character has the elite array and applies either 13 or 12 on Constitution, and increases it by 2 points until 20th level, he would have a +2 Con bonus, for an average (no max for the 1st HD) of 90 hp (HD) + 40 hp (Con), or 130 hp. That means that the character won't survive 2 rounds in the lava - he would reach -10 hp by then! Just wanted to clear something up... the lava rules stat that you take 20D6 per ound in the lava then you take 10D6 for 1D3 rounds after you get out... so on average even if you are in lava for only one round you will take 20D6 the 1st round then an additional 10D6 for 2 more rounds for a total of 140 points of damage, so the example 20th level charcter you used with 130 HP, would die from only 1 round of immersion in lava... it may take him 3 total rounds to die, but it only took 1 round to kill him.
theblindman 03-22-06, 02:04 PM	This flaw doesn't exist. I added in a provision where creatures immune to ability damage take hit point damage instead. I could have worded it better though...in fact, I think I will go do that now... Seems a bit clumsy to me. I totally sympathize with you wanting to make lava more sinister, but rules that require you to refer to several different tables and provisos are needlesly complex, and just waste player's time. Final note for those who would start muttering: a round lasts 6 seconds, which means that the aforementioned barbarian with his 5-round lava-bath survived for less than half a minute. If we take magic into account, well, how realistic can you get with magical abilities and conditions!? That's part of my problem with existing rules. I can certainly understand a Gold Dragon shrugging off lava damage, because that is a supernatural ability. It makes sense that a monk could survive a bit longer than usual, because they have mystical abilities that imbue their body with supernatural toughness and longevity. But a fighter? He's just a guy with a sword. Granted, at 20th level he's a really tough guy with a sword, but there's nothing supernatural about it, ergo he should not be able to survive immersion in several thousand degrees of liquid rock, no matter his constitution score. There's a difference between the supernatural survivability of a Red Dragon and the exceptional toughness of a 20th level fighter, hardened by decades of brutal combat.
RaspK FOG 03-23-06, 05:00 AM	That's part of my problem with existing rules. I can certainly understand a Gold Dragon shrugging off lava damage, because that is a supernatural ability. It makes sense that a monk could survive a bit longer than usual, because they have mystical abilities that imbue their body with supernatural toughness and longevity. But a fighter? He's just a guy with a sword. Granted, at 20th level he's a really tough guy with a sword, but there's nothing supernatural about it, ergo he should not be able to survive immersion in several thousand degrees of liquid rock, no matter his constitution score. There's a difference between the supernatural survivability of a Red Dragon and the exceptional toughness of a 20th level fighter, hardened by decades of brutal combat. Dragons are naturally/extraordinairily immune to some kind of damage, not supernaturally so. A monk has no more reason to survive such conditions unless he multiclasses (his abilities do not deal with energy resistances per se). Your fighter, though, may be no different than some people who have fallen through nearly ten thousand feet in the air and survived, and the same applies to quite about everybody else! That's life for you.
HerbalTea 03-23-06, 05:42 AM	So everyone, consisting of both ogres with tough skin and humans with flimsy skin are both reduced to 1 hp - despite the stronger skin of the ogre? I only read the first part so I'm probably wrong
neilthrun 03-24-06, 08:23 PM	While I feel the damage of 20d6 is a good amount, I have other issues with it. Who wants to role 20d6 for more than a single round, let alone multiple characters?
Techneon 03-25-06, 03:10 AM	Perhaps if you went with the 20d6 per round, and you are also instantly nauseated and fatigued, and lose 2 points to all physical stats (As ability drain, on-top of the -2 to str/con for being fatigued). If you are in the lava a second round you take another 20d6, lose another 2 points to physical stats and are exhausted (which gives another -6 to str/con). Every round they are in they are sinking at a certain rate. Every round after the second they take 2 points to physical stats of ability drain, 20d6 pts damage, and have to make a con check against thirst (so endurance would help ever so slightly). When/if they get out the nauseation and exhaustion/fatigue last for 1d4 days and 2d6 hours (or until you are healed of the ability drain, which ever comes first) respectively. Is there notes on swimming in lava, as it's much thicker the DC to move any distance would be much higher than swimming in water, and you oculd only take 10 if you were immune to fire (if you were able to take 10 when swimming anyway).
RaspK FOG 03-25-06, 12:36 PM	Techneon, you quite literally went overboard. And fatigue/exhaustion affect Strength and Dexterity, not Strength and Constitution...
starfire311 03-25-06, 03:43 PM	While I feel the damage of 20d6 is a good amount, I have other issues with it. Who wants to role 20d6 for more than a single round, let alone multiple characters? This is a valid issue... I do a lot od space combat in my D20 future games, and you see weapons that do like 18D8 or 24D6 a lot, we just do average damage rather than rolling... I would have no problem if my DM ruled that being immersed in Lava did a flat 70 points a round.