Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ertai Planeswalker 02-24-04, 10:40 AM	So what do you think are the most powerfull Gestalt combinations? I think Monk/Cleric, Monk/Druid and Paladin/Sorcerer stand a good chance. I don't really see the usefullness in combining two fighter classes, they hardly improve one another. (Compared with other Gestalt combo's that is) Then again, Fighter/Rogue could be the ultimate trapfinder.
Banpai 02-24-04, 11:30 AM	A paladin/ sorcerer built seems extremly good, put in the obvious Mithril Twilight (sp?) Chain shirt and you are on the saver side. If you really want to cheese use a Mithril Buckerl with the Divine Shield Feat. On the other hand each combination with Rogue or alternatively with Fighterfeat rogue gives all those dire needed skillpoints as well as evasion, uncanny dodge and all those sweet rogue abilities. If you really want über-strenght try Barbarian/Cloistered Cleric with Strenght domain ( I know only a bad DM would allow that)
Ertai Planeswalker 02-24-04, 07:06 PM	Or a Feral Gestalt Monk\Psion with Vow of Poverty...
Azure Knight 02-25-04, 05:38 AM	I'm not so sure about two fighters not improving. A Barbarian/Fighter would have the rage, speed, damage reduction, and other assorted toys, plus they'd get gobs of feats on top of that. Then again, "feats by the bucket" are pretty much all a fighter's got.
fruits and vegetables 02-25-04, 06:41 AM	my first thought was monk/cleriC. then again, about anything/cleric is good for a gestaulT. monk/cleric just seems to offer the best contrasT.
JohnCJ 02-25-04, 07:24 AM	If you want to stack sneak attcks like pancakes, try Rogue/Assassin edit: assuming you allow gestalt PrCs, of course. Considering what a can of worms that opens, you may want to carefully consider doing so.
fruits and vegetables 02-25-04, 07:36 AM	Originally posted by JohnCJ If you want to stack sneak attcks like pancakes, try Rogue/Assassin cutE.
Xorial 02-25-04, 09:25 AM	I can see the fighter types complimenting eachother into one killing machine. The aforementioned Fighter/Barbarian is a fine example. Any warrior type that absolutely wants to ove power the opposition with all the feat that they could use to compliment their style should gestalt with fighter. A Ranger/Fighter, with all the Weapon Specialization tree to go with the combat styles. For the sneaky killing amachine, the Ranger/Rogue. Sneak attacks on top of the favored enemy bonuses. That would possibly be a fine contract killer, espescially if the ranger is of the urban variant. The favored could be rival guilds. Talk about a guild enforcer.
Ringrose 02-25-04, 10:26 AM	I think the Paladin/Sorcerer with after four levels of Paladin the character switched his Paladin levels out for Spellsword to get rid of the Spell casting Penalty (Mithril Full Plate and a Heavy Mithril shield...no Arcane spell failure...)...then after the Spellsword levels you could switch out Sorcerer for Exalted Arcanist while gaining levels back in Paladin (remember you cannot use two prestige classes at the same time)...those combinations seem to fit well together and seem to have a common theme (Holy spell casting warrior)...you would lose the extra spell casting levels from Spellsword (I do not believe they would stack at the same time you are gaining Sorcerer levels)...but this sounds like a fun combination to play...what do you guys think... Kurt
Fingers Boggis 02-25-04, 11:50 AM	im going to make myself a ninja lol. straight monk down one side with a mixture of rogue (sneak attack and skill mastery), fighter (feats) and sorceror (those nifty spell-like abilities ninjas are portrayed as having) i also think fighter cleric would come in very powerful
darkkender 02-25-04, 12:31 PM	I would think that a psiwarrior/warmage would seem to be really really nasty which is something I'm working on for a npc in my gestalt campaign I'm building.
strenoth 02-25-04, 12:56 PM	Ring Rose, only problem with that is Spell Sword is not a class that lets one switch back to paladin. How ever, if you are in a campaign or setting where that is not an issue, try this: you go up to paladin X/sorcerer Y Then you do Paladin(X+1)/Sorcerer Y/Spellsword1 And then Paladin(X+1)/Sorcerer (Y+1)/Spellsword2 Paladin(X+2)/Sorcerer (Y+1)/Spellsword3 Paladin(X+2)/Sorcerer (Y+2)/Spellsword4 Paladin(X+3)/Sorcerer (Y+2)/Spellsword5 Paladin(X+3)/Sorcerer (Y+3)/Spellsword6 ETC note that by taking sorcerer levels only on the even levels where Spellsword does not advance a spellcaster level, at the end of SpellSword 10, you still have full spellcaster progression, and you paladin abilities have advanced by 5 levels, but you familiar's special abilies have fallen behind by 5 levels, compared to what you proposed. you always have good fort/will and good BaB either way
Ringrose 02-25-04, 02:13 PM	Hmmm...good catch...but since in my version the Spellsword technically loses his spell progression, I would call that a fair exchange to be allowed back into the class...the whole theme of the character is still holy-ish so as DM I would let him take more Paladin levels...especially since he/she has probably already taken a few Exalted feats in preparation of becoming an Exalted Arcanist...
Giant in the Playground 02-25-04, 02:31 PM	What about Favored Soul (from the Mini Handbook) and Paladin? Same great Charisma-based spontaneous spellcasting, but no armor issues. Plus, you get freakin' wings, and it's hard to argue with the thematic angle, too.
terrellk11 02-25-04, 02:41 PM	How about a human fighter/psionic warrior? Over the course of 20 levels, the character would have 27 feats.
strenoth 02-25-04, 03:14 PM	I've mentioned that one before too. With that many feats, i think TWF using a spiked shield as your off hand weapon (Improved Shield bash to retain AC) is a very viable option.. especially if you enchant the spikes with the Defender quality. :) of course, I love a shield with throwing & returning on the spikes myself, but that's just me. :)
stone_dog 02-25-04, 03:35 PM	+1 Adamantine Shield of Throwing and Returning... Add the Lawful and Holy traits to it... Hmmm... Sorry, didn't mean to highjack. Fighter/PsyWar is pretty slick actually, but I would only allow the better of the bonus feat progression of the fighter and the selection of the PsyWar. Still, a very cool set up.
X105_Strike 02-25-04, 06:01 PM	[edited] Revision below.... For starters I guess.. 1)5Wiz/5Cle/10MT/5 Archmage/5 Heirophant/10Rogue(actually anything is possible with rogue/heirophant) -> arcane and divine spells to the max with a touch of rogue skills.... 2) 10Pal/20Sor/10 Spellsword is good combo with extremely good saves..watch those true strikes/power attack/charge..... 3) 10sor/10Red wizard/20wizard.. you have specialist attack spells AND all around utility spells... 4) 5wiz(sor)/10rogue/10AT/10 fighter/5 archmage->fighter +rogue+spellcaster-what more do you want? 5) 20 Forsaker/20 monk is the ultimate spellcaster killing machine Comments are welcome..
Banpai 02-25-04, 06:10 PM	X105_Strike build one does not work chause MT is forbidden in Gestalt, built 2 is nice and works, no. 3 works too though Red Wizards usually donīt accept sorcerers in their ranks, 4 AT is forbidden too, and finally you have to qualify for forsaker first and taking more than 10 levels in a PrC is not allowd tíll epic.
catharz 02-25-04, 06:11 PM	Originally posted by X105_Strike Comments are welcome.. Most of your builds are illegal ;) Her is a simple but good combo: Ranger/Wizard! Full BAB, all good saves, 6 skill points/level, full spellcasting. Works with Sorceror too, but I don't think thats as worthwhile. For crazyness, try a Druid 20/Ranger 15/Nentyar hunter 5. [Edit] I'm not entirely sure if this is legal, but a Wizard 7+Monk 7/Nar demonbinder 1+Wizard 8/Incantatrix 10+Wizard 18/Archmage 2+Wizard 20 is absolutely crazy. Wizard spellcasting over 20th level, Nar demonbinder spellcasting over 7th level, etc.
stone_dog 02-25-04, 06:17 PM	Well, Mystic Theurge and all PrCsthat are basically combo classes should be considered forbidden in a gestalt game. I'd say that includes Mystic Theurge and spellsword. I'd rule that Red Wizard cannot be taken at the same time as a regular wizard, but Sorcerer20/Red Wiz10/Wiz10 would be very potent indeed. Number four sounds good. Sounds like fun actually. I think I'd let AT slide for the PrC rule since most of the abilities are overlapping rogue anyway just because it sounds like a cool concept. And other than the fact that there IS no 20 level forsaker class then Mages beware of number five!
X105_Strike 02-25-04, 06:18 PM	I though you can have 1 PrC.... Maybe I over-read something. and sorry about forsaker..not that familar with them.. as you might have guess I am a wizard kind of a guy... For red wizards.. I dont think the requirement stated in the DMG gives any restriction for sorcerers. At least I dont recall any..
stone_dog 02-25-04, 06:21 PM	You CAN have one PrC, you just aren't supposed to have a PrC that is already a combo of two classes. And the Red Wizards don't usually admit sorcerers, but it is a game world restriction and not a rules restriction. Thayans just don't like sorcerers much.
JoAT 02-25-04, 06:25 PM	Originally posted by X105_Strike 1)5Wiz/5Cle/10MT/5 Archmage/5 Heirophant/10Rogue(actually anything is possible with rogue/heirophant) -> arcane and divine spells to the max with a touch of rogue skills.... 5) 20 Forsaker/20 monk is the ultimate spellcaster killing machine :teach: Let's stay within the rules, shall we? No using prestige classes that emulate two or more classes, and no using more than ten levels of a prestige class, pre-epic... unless, of course, the prestige class actually has more than 10 pre-epic levels... Generalizing, I'd say that the most potent combinations would tend to be anything/spellcaster, but I see most others as being fairly strong, too... Actually, perhaps attempting to come up with a list of base class/base class combos to stay away from would be easier... Originally posted by stone_dog Fighter/PsyWar is pretty slick actually, but I would only allow the better of the bonus feat progression of the fighter and the selection of the PsyWar. Still, a very cool set up. Now, now, don't be so hasty there - the feat progression is a class feature of Psychic Warriors, after all - you're not going to strip a Bar/Fighter of his rages, or a Ranger/Fighter of his combat style, are you? It may be a powerful combo, but it's not going to be as bad as if it were something like a cleric/wizard (especially if you then go off and take levels in spell sword, replacing the wizard half)... actually, on that note, how about things like a Wizard or Bard/Hexblade? Cleric/Paladin? Druid/anything-up-to-and-including-commoner? edit: Holy flying fingers, Batman! I've got to get this stuff out faster....
stone_dog 02-25-04, 06:36 PM	Originally posted by JoAT Now, now, don't be so hasty there - the feat progression is a class feature of Psychic Warriors, after all - you're not going to strip a Bar/Fighter of his rages, or a Ranger/Fighter of his combat style, are you? It may be a powerful combo, but it's not going to be as bad as if it were something like a cleric/wizard (especially if you then go off and take levels in spell sword, replacing the wizard half)... actually, on that note, how about things like a Wizard or Bard/Hexblade? Cleric/Paladin? Druid/anything-up-to-and-including-commoner? I'm not being hasty. I am keeping things in check for what I would rule. No, I wouldn't strip a barbarian/fighter of rages because the fighter doesn't have them. The ranger ability is called combat style and is very limited so I have no problem there. The Psychic warrior feats are basically fighter feats with the psychic feats thrown in too. So the character gets the better parts of both classes. The selection list of the warrior and the number of feats from the fighter.
X105_Strike 02-25-04, 06:46 PM	Its funny how I have different ruling base on my "illegal" classes... Ok so without the mimicing of the two class things.. Revised: 1) 5wiz/10 Shadow Adept/5 archmage/20 rogue -shadow spellcasting with rogue abilities 2) 10Pal/20Sor/10 Platinum Knight is good combo with extremely good saves..watch those true strikes/power attack/charge..... 3) 20sor/10Red wizard/10wizard.. you have specialist attack spells AND all around utility spells... (although I feel that a sorcer->red wizard is more powerful...) 4) 10 fighter/10 Forsaker/20 monk is the ultimate spellcaster killing machine Comments are welcome..
stone_dog 02-25-04, 06:56 PM	MUCH tighter. One is a dark and sinister sounding figure, very cool there. I don't know anything about the platinum guy. Draconomicon? Don't have it yet. Number three really is more of a flavor thing. Certainly the Reds would take a gestalt character regardless of sorcerer ability, but the PrC really is an extension of a Specialist wizard anyway, so this way is more in theme. And again, four is a sneaky bouncy bashy mage killing machine.
JoAT 02-25-04, 06:59 PM	Originally posted by stone_dog I'm not being hasty. I am keeping things in check for what I would rule. No, I wouldn't strip a barbarian/fighter of rages because the fighter doesn't have them. The ranger ability is called combat style and is very limited so I have no problem there. The Psychic warrior feats are basically fighter feats with the psychic feats thrown in too. So the character gets the better parts of both classes. The selection list of the warrior and the number of feats from the fighter. The problem with that, though is that the everything about the psychic warrior is going to be replaced by the fighter's abilities already - they already have an inferior hit die, BAB, the same skill points, the same saves, and pretty much the same skills - it would be far, far better to use a Psion/Fighter, because you'd then keep all of your class abilities and still get better access to powers than a Fighter/Psychic Warrior. Of course, we'll need to see how they come out in the XPH to see how it all would really work, now...
stone_dog 02-25-04, 07:06 PM	Originally posted by JoAT Of course, we'll need to see how they come out in the XPH to see how it all would really work, now... That is true. Who knows how much they have changed. The thing with the fighter/psion is you (probably) would still only get psychic feats at 1,3,6,9,12,15,18 since they aren't fighter feats. Anyway, it is all judgement calls. Most of the PsyWar stuff would be replaced under my system it is true, but they would still get more feats than the Warrior alone and powers the fighter certainly can't access.
Banpai 02-25-04, 07:09 PM	Good job take a :cookie:. Your number one is really good, especially chause it has acess to the hight level rogue abilities. Number two might be a way to fullfill the "kill a red dragon" to enter the class. About the Sorcerer issue I didnīt wanted to say that you should not use it with your sorcerer level, I just wanted to mention that sorcerer are extremly uncommon in thier rank. But well chause he is a wizard too perhaps noone would mention it at all. Your 4 is definitly powerfull to (as long as he carries a stock of magic items with him to destroy, thats why I think the class is badly written - there is a anti-spellcater PrC in CW thats nice too. Overall powerfull options. BtW I donīt think that Spellword needs to be forbidden in Getstalts.
Ringrose 02-25-04, 08:03 PM	I do not believe Spellsword would be illegal if you were gaining levels in it at the same time as your Arcane class (so you would ignore the additional spells for Spellsword because same class abilites cannot combine)...basically only taking the class for the Arcane spell failure reduction and channel spell abilities (as well as keeping the HD and Bab thing going)...thoughts??? Kurt
Sabis 02-25-04, 09:17 PM	No reason spellsword (or any otehr fighter/wiz combo's, like bladesinger and such) shoudl be banned... but mystic theurge's shoudl proably be banned, although having above 20th caster level by 20th level is pretty cool... a 15Sorc/15Cleric/10myth would own all w/ 25th caster level adn the ability to shapechange into a tarrasque. and that's not even considering alternate prestige classes. =) I liek the 10pal/20sorc/10spellsword build, ti seems liek it would kick a lot of but. A monk/paladin could be really cool, since wis and cha are already improatn for a paladin. a Druid19/Warshaper5/Nature'sAvatar5/Monk11 would have great saves, uber spellcasting, animal and elemental that he can freely alter, use his monk attacks in all the forms.... ahhh, the power of cheese. =)
X105_Strike 02-25-04, 11:57 PM	Originally posted by stone_dog MUCH tighter. One is a dark and sinister sounding figure, very cool there. I don't know anything about the platinum guy. Draconomicon? Don't have it yet. Number three really is more of a flavor thing. Certainly the Reds would take a gestalt character regardless of sorcerer ability, but the PrC really is an extension of a Specialist wizard anyway, so this way is more in theme. And again, four is a sneaky bouncy bashy mage killing machine. Platimum knights most powerful feature is that it has a thing call bahamut's grace much like divine grace [at 5th level] and it stacks. There are other great benefits too.... Maybe I would change (3) to 20sor/5wiz/10red wizard(or incantrix?)/5 archmage ->archmage is really a taste thing tho. I dont know about spellsword.. however.. my build works on the fact that spellsword would provide the sorcerer/paladin armor protection, which would be a nice thing.... the character would have high saves, spellcasting abilities, armor protection, and good BAB.
BalancedOne 02-26-04, 12:54 AM	Illusionist20- Rogue(or Monk)5/Assisin5/Shadow Adept 10 with alternate specialist abilitys No one sees you/ hears you/ or can detect you (even True Seeing needs a level check) until you disintrgrate them for 38d6 damage + 6d6 sneak attack damage
Shakra 02-26-04, 11:22 AM	THIS IS :censored::censored::censored::censored: . YOU SHOULD SUE THAT MONTE COOK GUY FOR SELLING THIS.
Shakra 02-26-04, 11:23 AM	THIS IS CRAP. YOU SHOULD SUE THAT MONTE COOK GUY FOR SELLING THIS. just my 2 cp
Toptomcat 02-26-04, 11:53 AM	Monte Cook didn't sell this. *whacks*
BalancedOne 02-26-04, 12:18 PM	Shakra, instead of ranting maby you should just not use the OPTIONAL rule varants and switch to decaf
WizO_TheCheat 02-26-04, 07:37 PM	Please keep it on topic folks and not about each other.
Hygric 02-26-04, 09:01 PM	I think that I would be tempted to try out a wiz/sorc combo. Use the wizard spells for unusual spells and hordes of quickened love, and the sorc spells for your everyday blasting needs. Although a cleric/wiz item creator could be impressive. You could make (and use) nearly any item there is.
flyingmoose 02-26-04, 11:43 PM	When you take levels of Mystic Theurge and you have more than one arcane/divine spellcasting class, you pick which one you advance yourspellcasting it. So... cleric/druid 5 sorcerer/wizard 5 cleric/mystic theurge 5 (advance druid and wizard) wizard/mystic theurge 5 (advance cleric and sorcerer) Casting as cleric 15/druid 10/sorcerer 10/wizard 15. I'm sure this can be worked out better.
darkkender 02-27-04, 01:46 AM	Well I have a new addition here run my same concept warmage 20/psiwarrior 20 and change it a tad bit such as; warmage 16/barbarian 3/rage mage 8/dragon disiple 10/half dragon paragon 3(gnome is my character but you could take an elf as base character drop 2 levels rage mage and one level warmage plug in half elf paragon before half dragon paragon and even more cool) or warmage 15/psiwarrior 15/planar champion 10 or warmage 15/psiwarrior 15/planeshifter 10 or any other evil twisted combo. Thank You That Is All!!:mage: :invasion:
Naga_Slayer 02-27-04, 05:41 PM	I was thinking about some nasty combos. Psion/PsyWarrior. Basically, your PP's stack, which means lots of cool power flinging. If you use Bruce's Mindscapes Psion, you not only get the Psy Warrior feats up the yin yang, but also those bonus feats from the Psion class. Since psionics don't suffer from spell failure, and psywarriors get armor proficiency, there's a no brainer. Decent atack bonus. Powers out your hind end. And, a psicrystal. By 20th level, you'd have an unstoppable force that could wear armor and spontaneously manifest metapsionic powers. Wouldn't even need a PrC to benefit this character. Also, now one can play the psionic monk with this option. Bard/Rogue. the almost perfect spy I was also thinking of combining UA with AU. How about a Wizard (or, preferably sorcerer) Magister? Druid/Greenbond. Oathsworn/Monk. Paladin of slughter/Champion of Death. Or, take Green Ronin's Deathknight from "Secret College of Necromancy" and do a weird 3-way with the Paladin of Slaughter and Champion of Death (switching out one class for another at alternating levels). Unleash the trail of death and evil. A fighter barbarian would be insanely powerful. Basically, it's a barbarian (d12 hit dice and all) with fighter feats. However, Dragon issue #292 or 294 (the one that has the saurials in it) has class combos for the Barbarian. The Sea Wolf, which was a barbarian/rogue and the Barbarian/Ranger combo. Both of these would work quite nicely as Gestalt classes. Let's use some other d20 stuff: a monk/inkyo. Monk/Kundala. Samurai/fighter. Samurai/rogue. Samurai/ninja. Monk/ninja. Samurai/courtier. Shugenja/wu-jen. Shugenja/courtier. Shugenja/fighter. Shugenja/Cleric. Mystic/sorcerer (eliminates the Mystic Theurge PrC). Noble/courtier. Bard/courtier. Bard/noble (all three would be mad-ness in a court-room setting).
Shard Blackwing 02-27-04, 07:00 PM	I'm working on a Fighter/Druidic Bard. <One of those short ability switch-out varients on p.58; it trades Bardic Knowlege and inspire courage/competence/greatness/heroics for an Animal companion, nature sense, resist natures lure, and wild empathy> I chose to specalize in twin light weapon fighting backed up by dex based feats and skills. Also, my spells are based upon mobility (mostly) though I do have some utility (healing, summoning, etc.) spells.
Nick Soapdish 03-01-04, 04:00 PM	Initially, I liked the idea of a ranger/wizard. All good saves, full spellcasting and BAB progression, and good skills. OTOH, you just lost one of the ranger's possible 2 dump stats. So you need a high intelligence and middlin' everything else, but charisma. A simple rogue/monk could be pretty devastating. Or even better, you can get kinda complicated and have a fighter4/swashbuckler6/monk10 - rogue10/duelist10. Full BAB, two additional stat bonuses to AC, plus a bit more, and great saves. I prefer a simpler build of a swashbuckler6/fighter4/duelist10 - rogue 20. (You can switch the fighter & swashbuckler levels if you prefer the feat to the Dodge bonus increase.)
fey_master 03-01-04, 04:35 PM	i would say a warmage/barbarian would be a good mix cause u would be able to wear armor (only light) use any weapon and still get all those powerful damaging spells, and all u need is a good cha and str and your set to go:cool:
miztivoi 03-01-04, 05:40 PM	I don`t know if this is a powerhouse-combo, but I just think it is lethally cool. Rogue/Psychic Warrior Two good saves, d8 hit die, sneak attack, weapon spes, oodles of feats (psionic ones to boot), 8 + int skill points and access to stabilize self and autohypnosis. Oops. I almost forgot: Claws of the Vampire combined with Sneak Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting and Weapon Spesialization. "Latch on and suck im dry" :drool: Why isn`t there a vampire smiley anywhere...?
insatium 03-01-04, 08:53 PM	Ftr 20/Pal10/Cavalier10 Mounted Combat and jillions of feats. Monkey Grip a large lance with the valorous enchantment(2x damage on a charge :behold: ) The 2nd level Paladin spell Righteous Aura(Minis Book I think) doubles charge damage and stacks with a spear and presumeably unstoppable charge. That's what, 10x damage without a crit?? :smirk: Basically, charge, wheel around if anyhting survived, repeat until everything is dead. :lucifer: EDIT:Realized valorous isn't in OA. Forget where it is.
SSR 03-03-04, 09:58 AM	Think big, think devastating, think: conquer the world with your undead army! Maybe a bit of munch... Take 5 wiz/ cleric then 1 true necromancer/ cleric then you go the mystic theurge way... At first level, the true necromancer can add ALL his spellcaster levels together for necromatic spells... At level 20 this character will have caster level 54... cast General of undeath (magic of faerun) and you can now control an army of small 2160 HD from the casting of animate dead, then add 200 to the number because of his comanding ability granted from his cleric classes... giving 2360 HD of creatures!!!
Xorial 03-03-04, 10:30 AM	I would say that using a Psion 20/ PsyWar 20 would be the best Psionic Gestalt. Under normal rules, they can multiclass & they pool the power points. You will get a butt load of points and ALOT of powers. Manifester levels wont stack, but who cares. The PsyWar bonus feats can be used for just about anything the character wants.
TerrickTerran 03-03-04, 11:26 AM	To test out gestalts, I tried a Monk/Swashbuckler. It makes a very scary AC combo.
DarkThoughts24 03-03-04, 08:49 PM	monk/samurai (oa version not CW) and after tenth level take out the samurai and slip in iaijatsu master. the ac bonuses alone should scare you. that is the sword of the clearest mind. warmage/wizard. destruction and arcane trickery. and let us not forget the bonus feats. ohhhhh the bonus feats. and it allows the wizard to consider the armor slot of magic items again.
bitnine 03-04-04, 04:22 AM	I'd be tempted to try out a rage mage gone gestalt style.
Kaya Kenobi 03-04-04, 04:43 AM	I find the Mystic/Sorcerer is a cool combination of great saves, good proficiencies, and even spontaneous casting. All in all, it's pretty cool.. :D
Ellone 03-04-04, 06:59 AM	first, most prc should be baned especialy dual class prc like mystic theurge and arcane trickster. It's just wrong to allow any kind of rogue + rogue progress. Second, what are we looking for here? Gestalt character are designed to allow a little group 2-3 character ) to play without creating big hole into their class combination. If you ask for the character granting the most utility, i would give most combination giving both divine and arcane spellcasting, with a thought toward rogue. Probably a sorcerer or wizard/ bard or ranger If you seek the best mob killing machine, comboing 2 fighting class is probably best. If you seek the best PvP character, it is still another discussion. Then, gestalt character benefits more from high abilitie than standard character, so to give a good answer you should say which generation method you are using.
Archangel 03-05-04, 06:29 AM	I've seen a lot of people take multiclass levels like this: fig 1/wiz1, fig 2/wiz1/rog1 then rog2/fig2/wiz2 etc... I believe you cannot do this, you can multiclass only one of the gestalt levels with the same class! So it would be like this fig1/wiz1, fig2/wiz1/rog1, fig3/wiz2/rog1, fig4/wiz2/rog2!!
JessiLaurn 03-05-04, 03:51 PM	Funny as it may sound, I'm having a lot of fun with my halfling Paladin-Expert. Yes, you read that right: a gestalt combination of Paladin and the Expert NPC class from the DMG. Sounds lousy at first, until you consider that the little fellow gets ten additional in-class skills of his choice, three times as many skill points as a base Paladin, and a good bonus to Will saves...all of which adds up to one heck of an effective Paladin.
NorthSaber 03-05-04, 04:27 PM	We're running a one-shot gestalt adventure and I was making this completely "broken" half-dragon Battle Sorcerer / Rogue Fighter / Arcane Trickster. I won't bother you with the details, but here's an idea of what the character can do: - we're halving down template LAs, rounding down - Battle Sorcerer allows him to ignore ASF when in light armor (mithral breast plate +5, animated large shield +1) - Rogue Fighter is one of the variants from UA, which trades fighter feats for sneak attacks (plus I traded the sorcerer's familiar for the rogue traps ability) - as a Half-Dragon, he gets 1d12 hit points at every level of this progression - full base attack bonus (five attacks per round when using two weapons, six when hasted - we use 3.0) - he only skips one caster level (I also have some Half-Dragon Paragon levels in there somewhere), giving him 7th level sorcerer spells at 15th level - 12d6 sneak attack (these might not stack by the rules, but we're doing it anyway ;) ) - one level of contemplative, add the Healing domain, and all cure spells are added to his spells known (no caster level lost as this is taken with arcane trickster) BTW: do you know if Vampiric Touch sneak attack gives back hps for the full damage or only for the amount done by the spell itself? Why? (Edit: I found out that the Contemplative won't add the heals to the arcane spell list... It will still allow him to use wands and scrolls with cures though.)
stone_dog 03-05-04, 08:10 PM	Take a monk. Now take the new Ninja from Dragon 316 (minor details in the Oriental Adventures Forum). Mash them together. Yum. Edit: Awwww... :( Monks don't have Leap of the Clouds anymore... I miss that. Oh well, add it back in and you have one hell of a bouncy character.
Vanigo 03-05-04, 08:39 PM	I put together a wizard/paladin/paragon half-elf/paragon human/elemental savant/celestial mystic/monk/duelist/archmage. IIRC, it had +17 BAB, 12th level monk abilities (for six attacks a round), cast spells as a 20th level wizard, could pull 30 AC buck naked in an AMF, had no hit die below a d8, and had all ten levels of celestial mystic.
strenoth 03-06-04, 02:08 AM	if you really want to go with nasty combos, try yanking from D20 sources outside of standard DnD. :) Namely, the wheel of time D20 book, published by WotC cleric/wilder gestalt any one? they both use wisdom for spell/weave DC and bonus spells/weaves, the cleric uses CHA for turning and possibly other effects, the wilder uses CHA to get even more bonus weaves. so, stat #1 is WIS, stat # 2 is CHA, do up the rest as you like. no ASF for wilders either. :) can you imagine a gestalt jedi guardian/{insert anything you like}
MikeN 03-07-04, 01:17 AM	Let's see... Druid20 / Monk20 Psion20 / PsyWarrior20 Shugenja20 / Sorcerer6/Mage of the Arcane Order4/Dragonslayer1/Spellsword1/Divine Oracle6/Archmage2 Druid20 / Ex-Monk2/Psywarrior8/Diamond Warrior10 Shugenja4/Hospitalier4/Mystic Wanderer2/Hexer10 / Ranger20 _______________ Lots of stuff you can do -- depends upon your campaign I guess.
jedrious 03-07-04, 04:06 PM	what page of dragon 316 is the ninja, I can't find it
Ulden Throatbane 03-08-04, 01:06 AM	Originally posted by DarkThoughts24 monk/samurai (oa version not CW) and after tenth level take out the samurai and slip in iaijatsu master. the ac bonuses alone should scare you. that is the sword of the clearest mind. I've actually completely reworked the iajetsu master prestigue class. It now takes up 2 class slots, and Iajetsu focus has now been worked in as a class ability. It works a lot better too-no more "I draw 4 daggers and hit you with each before dropping one and drawing the next, and I do sneak attack damage on each one" cheese. Plus a bunch of other features to make it worthy of occupying two slots. The gestalt combos that have the easiest time taking it are samurai(cw)/swashbuckler and fighter/monk. There's even the option of customizing the IM so that he does subdual damage on iajetsu attacks (can you say "Kenshin"?)
Alterwind 03-08-04, 01:17 AM	Half-Dragons only change Racial Hit dice not HD from class
mercurywyrm 03-08-04, 01:50 AM	Ranger 20/Wizard 15/Archmage5 Is a great caster, and a great combatant, with great skills, and can both heal and cast intense high level arcane spells. Really, this character's strength goes into skills, spellcasting, and thanks to higher HP and saves from ranger actually could have a decent familiar after the improved familiar feat. Druid 20/ Ranger 20 Is better than it looks, as the character gets all good saves, plus more than full divine nature casting. 20 Bard/ 20 Palladin If only... to bad for alignment restrictions. Monk 20/ Pally 20 Yay! Evil Smiting fists of of lawfullness! Yay, lay on hand, wholenessness of bodyness, yay monk unarmed strikes combined with martial weapon proficiencies so you can weild a reach weapon and still get monk unarmed strikes mixed in, as in AOO king without spiked chain! Yay, perfect self! And if you really wan't to go for the full thing here, YAY VOW OF POVERTY!!!!! Rouge 20/ Fighter 20 You know you wan't to play one, who cares if its not as munchy as the other possibilities, your a rouge who IS good at combat or a fighter who CAN deal damage! Bard (Or Marshall) 20/ Fighter 20 Can we say General? But really... RANGER/WIZARD it is probably the best combo out there! I mean what are you giving up on? High level divine spells and possible barbarian HP, or monk abilities. BUT you have all good saves, full BAB, and spellcasting of a wizard!
NorthSaber 03-08-04, 03:21 AM	Originally posted by Alterwind Half-Dragons only change Racial Hit dice not HD from class Could you point me to the place where this is mentioned? I found no such specification in either the Monster Manual nor Savage Species, but I wouldn't put it past myself to miss it...
theldran 03-08-04, 07:36 AM	i don't know exactly if this would be allowed w/ all the rules, but i don't have UA to check. however, i think this build right here would be marvelous to pull off. human warmage 20/havoc mage 5/fighter 4/rogue 3/sorcerer 8 with this, what have you got? -- 11 feats (energy missile specialization in my case here, but w/ rapid shot, etc for regular archery benefits), 8th level battlecasting, +2d6 sneak attacks, evasion, medium armor w/o arcane spell failure, and 4th level sorcerer spells for that ever-useful improved invisibility!! now, i'm certain that i'd be getting some stiff XP penalties (like 10 - 20%), but just the amazing combat capabilities this guy would have would be great! what do you guys think?
AstralFire 03-08-04, 09:35 AM	Sorcerer:Half-Elf Paragon 1 Sorcerer:Human Paragon 1 Ranger:Half-Elf Paragon 1 Sorcerer:Half-Elf Paragon 1 Ranger:Human Paragon 2 Sorcerer:Ranger 1 Sorcerer:Arcane Duelist 2 Heartwarder:Ranger 10 Sorcerer:Ranger 1 20th level casting, a +9 to Charisma, Charisma bonus to AC, all saves are decent...
Rakshasa552 03-08-04, 11:40 AM	Ok I have to say that I peraonal like the favored soul/warmage combo. It gives a nice access to divine and arcane combat spells. The warmage limits is only enhanced by the better base attack from the favored soul and you can not beat wings, energy resistance, weapon specialization and weapon focus -its just that nice. Also if you are truely worried about mix matched combinations you must ask yourself whether or not the level difference could cause a 20, 40, or 60% lose of experience. Gesalt is truely a powerful rule and should be handled carefully if you going to included it any game. But as I like to say anything that I won't allow my players to have I will definitly give to the NPCs and monsters. I have found an interesting way to get a spellcaster class to be able to cast 9th lvl spells at tenth level gestalt. What a sweet little combination. Mind you the caster can barely afford to cast some spell but to a red wizard he would be like ummm..... pancakes. :D
DarkThoughts24 03-08-04, 08:36 PM	Originally posted by Ulden Throatbane I've actually completely reworked the iajetsu master prestigue class. It now takes up 2 class slots, and Iajetsu focus has now been worked in as a class ability. It works a lot better too-no more "I draw 4 daggers and hit you with each before dropping one and drawing the next, and I do sneak attack damage on each one" cheese. Plus a bunch of other features to make it worthy of occupying two slots. The gestalt combos that have the easiest time taking it are samurai(cw)/swashbuckler and fighter/monk. There's even the option of customizing the IM so that he does subdual damage on iajetsu attacks (can you say "Kenshin"?) am sick of poorly made kenshin clones
Alterwind 03-09-04, 02:37 AM	Page 146 of the MM under creating a Half-Dragon go down to Hit Dice it says, "Increase base creature's racial HD by one size to a maximum d12. Do not increase class HD."
Anthor Del Niera 03-09-04, 02:49 AM	On the one side, you've got: Fighter6/Order of the Bow Initiate10/ Fighter4. On the other, you've got: Cleric12/ Rogue3/ Monk1/ Hospitaler 4. 16 levels casting for cleric, which isn't bad. Buffing with cleric spells, kind of gets ludicrous after a while. Might be worth statting out, if anyone wants me to. I'm fairly certain you won't get as versatile and powerful and damn useful as this character.
baoban sith 03-09-04, 09:52 AM	Well, if you want an archer, I'd try to fit in the other archery PrC's as well. one side ranger1/fighter4/Deepwood sniper2/Peerless Archer3/OotBI10 other side Cleric 20
philopharynx 03-09-04, 01:36 PM	1 Sorcerer 1/Ranger 1 2 Sorcerer 2/Ranger 2 3 Sorcerer 3/Ranger 3 4 Sorcerer 4/Ranger 4 5 Sorcerer 5/Ranger 5 6 Ranger 6/Spellsword 1 7 Sorcerer 6/Spellsword 2 8 Ranger 7/Spellsword 3 9 Sorcerer 7/Spellsword 4 10 Ranger 8/Spellsword 5 11 Sorcerer 8/Dragon Disciple 1 12 Sorcerer 9/Dragon Disciple 2 13 Sorcerer 10/Dragon Disciple 3 14 Sorcerer 11/Dragon Disciple 4 15 Sorcerer 12/Dragon Disciple 5 16 Sorcerer 13/Dragon Disciple 6 17 Sorcerer 14/Dragon Disciple 7 18 Sorcerer 15/Dragon Disciple 8 19 Sorcerer 16/Dragon Disciple 9 20 Sorcerer 17/Dragon Disciple 10 Feel free to substitute barbarian, fighter or paladin for the ranger levels. Good Combat, Excellent spellcasting (20th level sorcerer caster with 7 bonus spells known at 5th level or higher), wings, blindsense. Two excellent saves and one moderate save. Extra combat abilities. Lot's of d12 hd. A template without spending LA. Yep, this is what I'd do.
NorthSaber 03-09-04, 04:33 PM	Originally posted by Alterwind Page 146 of the MM under creating a Half-Dragon go down to Hit Dice it says, "Increase base creature's racial HD by one size to a maximum d12. Do not increase class HD." Is this 3.5 MM? We play 3.0.
AstralFire 03-09-04, 04:55 PM	It says that in 3.0 too. I remember.
NorthSaber 03-09-04, 11:09 PM	Originally posted by AstralFire It says that in 3.0 too. I remember. Could you help this apparently illiterate fellow find this tidbit? Page 146 deals with black puddings and orcs, so obviously it's not mentioned there. Under the Half-Dragon template description it simply says "Hit Dice: Increase by one die type, to a maximum of d12," nothing more. Savage Species, under Templates, says the following: "Some templates change the size of the Hit Die (usually as a consequence of changing the creature type). A few templates completely change previously acquired Hit Dice, and continue to change Hit Dice gained with class levels. Some templates change only the creature's original Hit Dice and leave class Hit Dice unchanged." Then there's a table that could be interpreted to mean that the Half-Dragon HD change only applies to previously acquired HD, but is quite unclear IMO. If the preceding paragraph is supposed to function as a key to the chart, it seems what you say is correct. Has this perchance been errata'd or FAQ'd anywhere? If at least Savage Species and MM agreed on this, I could agree completely with you... Essentially if what you say is true, then a medium-sized adventurer with the Half-Dragon template and no "monster levels" would in fact miss out on both the HD increase and wings... Hardly a good deal IMO. PS: sorry for these off-topic posts, but I was hoping for a quick and painless page reference; at this point starting a new thread seems a bit silly.
Princeoflowlight 03-09-04, 11:26 PM	A Paladin/Monk would have absolutely silly saving throws.
jagggar 03-10-04, 12:21 AM	Ninja is in Dragon 318, not 316. It is, or at least should be, implied for the base races that they do not get the bounus to HD from being a half-dragon. A 1 HD race exchanges it's racial HD in when it gains a class level and the class HD replaces the racial HD. I've always assumed that you apply the template before gaining levels (unless you go all crazy Savage Progressions so you might as well take Dragon Disciple)
Ulden Throatbane 03-10-04, 03:54 AM	Originally posted by Rakshasa552 I have found an interesting way to get a spellcaster class to be able to cast 9th lvl spells at tenth level gestalt. What a sweet little combination. Mind you the caster can barely afford to cast some spell but to a red wizard he would be like ummm..... pancakes. :D Let me guess: it either involves Mystic Thurgue, or leveling in a spellcasting class and a +1 to spell casting prestige class simultaneously. :twitch: I was quick to decide for my upcoming campaign that you could not have a higher spellcaster level than your character level. Figured I'd cut off such ridiculousness before it got started.
NorthSaber 03-10-04, 05:10 AM	Originally posted by jagggar It is, or at least should be, implied for the base races that they do not get the bounus to HD from being a half-dragon. A 1 HD race exchanges it's racial HD in when it gains a class level and the class HD replaces the racial HD. I've always assumed that you apply the template before gaining levels (unless you go all crazy Savage Progressions so you might as well take Dragon Disciple) To me it doesn't make much sense that there is such an essential difference between racial HD and class HD - not that the concept of HD makes much sense in the first place. For example, I don't see why a Vampire has a greater class HD than a Half-Dragon, and why a Half-Dragon has a greater racial HD than a Monstrous Beast (but an unaffected class HD). All of these could be acquired after character creation, by Wish if nothing else. Oh well, I guess I'll take my rants to the Savage Species boards... Thanks for the help guys.
philopharynx 03-10-04, 10:35 AM	Originally posted by Ulden Throatbane Let me guess: it either involves Mystic Thurgue, or leveling in a spellcasting class and a +1 to spell casting prestige class simultaneously. :twitch: I was quick to decide for my upcoming campaign that you could not have a higher spellcaster level than your character level. Figured I'd cut off such ridiculousness before it got started. Actually, no decision needs to be made, because it's stated in there explicitly. If the benefits are the same, you only get the better of the two. So you only get one spellcasting level for any single progression for each character level. If you are a Sorcerer/Bladesinger, then you don't get 2 caster levels of Sorcerer, because it's the same benefit. It also talks about progressions, but it's not very clear. In my game that means you can't get more than one die of sneak attack per two levels, or a fighter bonus feat more than once per two levels. Basically, you can't get anything that a non-gestalt character of that level coulnd't get - you just get more stuff.
darkkender 03-10-04, 11:29 AM	Originally posted by theldran i don't know exactly if this would be allowed w/ all the rules, but i don't have UA to check. however, i think this build right here would be marvelous to pull off. human warmage 20/havoc mage 5/fighter 4/rogue 3/sorcerer 8 with this, what have you got? -- yes you do have a completly Bad Mo Fo and it works perfect now here is a better twist drop fighter levels replace with barbarian, drop sorc all together and 2 levels warmage replace with rage mage, and you here these words as your moved to the front of the line "Stand Clear Psycho Spellcaster Coming Through", your reply of course is "I'm Not Psycho I'm Potent. :smirk: " now, i'm certain that i'd be getting some stiff XP penalties (like 10 - 20%), but just the amazing combat capabilities this guy would have would be great! what do you guys think? with gestalt there is no such thing as multiclass XP penalty anymore.:cool:
irion7 03-10-04, 12:02 PM	deos any1 knows in which book is the PrC Nature's Avatar?
philopharynx 03-10-04, 12:30 PM	Monk/Swashbuckler through level 5 Monk/Fighter from 5-10 (making sure to take weapon focus and specialization in kama) Monk/Dervish for the rest of the levels Get a Kama of speed or boots of speed Base attack bonus of +20/+20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+5 (Without using thousand cuts) you can use these attacks over a 90' move, which means you can move up to 60' and then use all of your attacks on one foe. You get an incredible armor class, +7 if you take the -4 penalty to attack defensively (assuming you have 5 ranks of tumble, and if you don't buy the 2 ranks over what you need to be a dervish then what the hell are you doing reading this thread?) +5 weapon attack and damage over any other bonuses All saves get +12 Improved evasion, spell resistance, self healing The main disadvantage is that you cannot mix kama attacks and unarmed attacks when dancing. However, you do get +7 or more to damage which offsets the higher base damage of the unarmed strike. Also: it's cheaper to get magical enhancement on a weapon than an unarmed strike; you avoid taking damage from baddies with auras and such; you can get Kamas out of different materials to penetrate DR or against specific foes (i.e. bane weapons) Ki focus allows you to use stunning fist and other monk attacks with your kama.
baoban sith 03-10-04, 04:30 PM	If you want to really cheese, how about a human VoP OA monk forsaker gestalt?
stone_dog 03-10-04, 04:42 PM	Originally posted by darkkender with gestalt there is no such thing as multiclass XP penalty anymore.:cool: Hmm... no, but that would be a good way to help balance them.
LexTalinis 03-10-04, 04:53 PM	Here we go: Half Dragon/Minotaur Barbarian/Fighter, using a Spiked chain and combat reflexes...15' reach.....(shivers). It is my experiance that this is a very tough cookie, and when he rages :hoppingma bached up by a good priest or mage...hmmmmm.
baoban sith 03-10-04, 05:59 PM	A level 2 VoP human monk/fighter can go into forsaker, provided you use the invisible eye school and a fighter variant that allows great fortitude and iron will as bonus feats, from dragon 310, such as Bodyguard, Commander, or Survivalist. At 20th level the build could be something like monk20//bodyguard2/forsaker8/kensai10 Is there value in continuing with monk past level 13 in this build?
Rakshasa552 03-10-04, 08:42 PM	Actually, no decision needs to be made, because it's stated in there explicitly. If the benefits are the same, you only get the better of the two. So you only get one spellcasting level for any single progression for each character level. If you are a Sorcerer/Bladesinger, then you don't get 2 caster levels of Sorcerer, because it's the same benefit. A Spellcasting class combined with a prestige class that increases existing spellcasting class would in fact increase the casting level by an additional level. That makes a wizard/mystic theurge a dangerous combination. One more to clarify it said in favor of the one that would accure at a faster rate. I recently moved to a new area and am looking for some fresh meat. I decided to help weed out the more unskilled individuals so I am going to setup a contest of two to three games. Each game will be a test of skill and require the players to make gestalt characters that will have to be able to handle their own. I figure if the player can make and handle a stable and well made gestalt character then they should be the one that plays in the campaign. I just need some tough one night game concepts that gestalts would fit well into.
Rakshasa552 03-10-04, 08:46 PM	sry that first part is a quote from philopharynx. not to clear on the makin of the quote thing.
Amator 03-11-04, 08:59 AM	Just starting a new game where I can have a second level gestalt character. One guy is already doing the fighter/wiz combo, and I think I'd rather go for something different. I'm thinking doing a Sorceror/Favored Soul. Everything is based on Charisma, you get a few battle feats with FS, and you can a huge amount of spells per day. Plus I can say that my character is the nexus of two family lines; one descended from a silver dragon, another from a celestial. It would also be fun to be a guy who can cast both arcane and divine spells all day long, and has never studied arcana nor religion.
jedrious 03-11-04, 10:33 AM	Originally posted by Amator Just starting a new game where I can have a second level gestalt character. One guy is already doing the fighter/wiz combo, and I think I'd rather go for something different. I'm thinking doing a Sorceror/Favored Soul. Everything is based on Charisma, you get a few battle feats with FS, and you can a huge amount of spells per day. Plus I can say that my character is the nexus of two family lines; one descended from a silver dragon, another from a celestial. It would also be fun to be a guy who can cast both arcane and divine spells all day long, and has never studied arcana nor religion. although having nothing in know (arcana/religion) would be suicide at epic even for a gestalt
Millennium 03-11-04, 02:42 PM	That's a lot of interesting combinations. But I thought you couldn't gestalt a PrC; didn't it say somewhere that a PrC took up both your class slots if you gained a level in it? I know they mentioned several things about PrCs, including playing with the prerequisites. Also, I thought that class abilities didn't stack in the Gestalt system; everything overlapped instead (so you take the better HD, the better saves, and so forth). Given that, I'm not sure that a wizard/theurge would be any better than a wizard/cleric, because the +1 caster level of the theurge overlapped with the +1 caster level from the wizard. If you stuck to core classes, I'd imagine that a Monk/Fighter would actually be quite powerful. Play the monk as your primary class, with the better BAB and HD of the fighter plus all the extra feats. That could work out quite well, to say the least.
Falido 03-11-04, 03:04 PM	hmm how about a Wizard/Ranger(or fighter whatever) and switching the ranger lvls to Arcane archer lvl's later on and after finishing the arcane archer adding some deepwood sniper :P
NorthSaber 03-11-04, 04:50 PM	Originally posted by Millennium That's a lot of interesting combinations. But I thought you couldn't gestalt a PrC; didn't it say somewhere that a PrC took up both your class slots if you gained a level in it? I know they mentioned several things about PrCs, including playing with the prerequisites. What they said was that with gestalts, the DM could make really outlandish uber-powered prestige classes, provided he requires they take both gestalt-slots of the level. Also, I thought that class abilities didn't stack in the Gestalt system; everything overlapped instead (so you take the better HD, the better saves, and so forth). Given that, I'm not sure that a wizard/theurge would be any better than a wizard/cleric, because the +1 caster level of the theurge overlapped with the +1 caster level from the wizard. Yeah, this is correct. Whoever said wizard/theurge is a good idea didn't really think it through I guess. Still, taking a prestige class that gives additional benefits such as special powers or a full bab progression - in addition to full spellcasting - will be a superior choice.
philopharynx 03-12-04, 01:53 PM	Originally posted by baoban sith If you want to really cheese, how about a human VoP OA monk forsaker gestalt? However, you must make sure that you do not actually ever possess any of the items you are destroying. That limits the forsaker a lot. Originally posted by LexTalinis Here we go: Half Dragon/Minotaur Barbarian/Fighter, using a Spiked chain and combat reflexes...15' reach.....(shivers). It is my experiance that this is a very tough cookie, and when he rages :hoppingma bached up by a good priest or mage...hmmmmm. That depends on how your GM handles LA and racial HD. IMO, you should never gestalt LA (i.e. take a level in fighter/LA) - that makes LA such a minor effect that it really fouls up the balance of the game. I also think that racial HD shouldn't be gestalted, but this isn't nearly as devastating to game balance. If neither LA or HD are gestalted, core races are a lot more powerful. Originally posted by Rakshasa552 A Spellcasting class combined with a prestige class that increases existing spellcasting class would in fact increase the casting level by an additional level. That makes a wizard/mystic theurge a dangerous combination. One more to clarify it said in favor of the one that would accure at a faster rate. Play the game however you like, but the rules say something else. A spellcasting level in a specific class is a spellcasting level in a specific class. Therfore they are the same. Therfore you only get one spellcasting level in a specific class per character level. When you read on further in the section, it states that you don't get any benefits sooner than single classed characters. The rules also say that you shouldn't use mystic theurge and other prestige classes that basically combine two classes. Originally posted by Millennium That's a lot of interesting combinations. But I thought you couldn't gestalt a PrC; didn't it say somewhere that a PrC took up both your class slots if you gained a level in it? I know they mentioned several things about PrCs, including playing with the prerequisites. You can gestalt a PrC, but you can only take one PrC per level. Basically you have to gestalt it with a core class. They also recommend you add "Character Level 5" to the prereq's of all prestige classes (because some are really easy to get with gestalt characters). Originally posted by Millennium Also, I thought that class abilities didn't stack in the Gestalt system; everything overlapped instead (so you take the better HD, the better saves, and so forth). Given that, I'm not sure that a wizard/theurge would be any better than a wizard/cleric, because the +1 caster level of the theurge overlapped with the +1 caster level from the wizard. They don't overlap. But they still recommend not using classes like the theurge because you might do fighter/mystic theurge. You'd get spellcasting levels in two classes, a good hit die, a good bab, a bonus feat every other level, and two good saves. This is a little too good, even for gestalt characters.
Archtyrant Terevoth 03-13-04, 04:19 PM	Originally posted by philopharynx That depends on how your GM handles LA and racial HD. IMO, you should never gestalt LA (i.e. take a level in fighter/LA) - that makes LA such a minor effect that it really fouls up the balance of the game. I also think that racial HD shouldn't be gestalted, but this isn't nearly as devastating to game balance. If neither LA or HD are gestalted, core races are a lot more powerful. Yeah, gestalting LA is a really bad idea. You can possibly gestalt monster hit dice with another class, but LA itself should remain LA, or else it becomes very powerful. The main disadvantage of LA is that it's dead weight. No hit dice gained, no skill points, no BaB. If you allow people to gestalt it then those disadvantages are gone.
legacyheir 03-13-04, 09:07 PM	Wizard-Sorcerer 20/Fighter-Spellsword 20/Clr 20-(Havoc Mage 5/ Anything else 15) Not only do you have more spells than you know what to do with, but then you get a sword and armor added in. And you have divine spells, to boot. Maybe make the wizard specialized and use the Sorcerer spells for the prohibited school. Choose a prohibited school with useful spells, though, like evocation. You don't want your spontaneous spells to go to something like necromancy when you could have fireball and magic missle at any time. Maybe make the 15 levels warmage for more fun :devil:
jedi8187 03-13-04, 09:31 PM	Druid/Monk, the unarmed attack bonus with animal forms is insane, especially after a few buffer spells.
Ulden Throatbane 03-15-04, 07:47 PM	This BBEG I'm making for my next campaign bends the Gestalt rules somewhat (he takes two PrCs at once), but since he is the main villain, I felt it was justifiable to make an exception for him :schemes: sorc (or wizard) 12/havoc mage 5/ fighter 5/spell sword 10/blackguard 10 Now just toss him in a suit of mithral full plate, and you have yourself a fully armored, 20th level arcane spell caster with full BAB progression and smite good and sneak attack to boot :cloud9: :88E: :fight!: :mage: :b:
Banpai 03-15-04, 08:16 PM	Thats a level 26 character or did i miss something?
Ulden Throatbane 03-15-04, 11:45 PM	Weeelll, I did some creative arranging of when I took levels of which class. One level, for example, I'd take sorc/spellsword and then the next I'd take spellsword/blackguard. Again, I broke the rules making this guy, buts since he's the BBEG its okay. Oh, he also has Monkey Grip for a feat and wields a large great sword that he carries in his gloves of storing. And he has a nightmare for a mount. :D
Zeus-the-mighty 03-16-04, 01:55 AM	my personal vote would be for the wiz/rogue. wiz's are powerful enough already. now you are just giving him a ton more skills, relfex saves, sneak attack, modest BAB. it easily looks like the combo of choice.
Mergandisevender 03-17-04, 06:44 AM	Fighter/Expert is amazingly fun. I got a player who wants to go for it, and his theory isn't that he can be like a Rogue without sneaking.. but he can actually make stuff. Like, swords. And things. And stuff. And.. and he wants to use the class to make Swordchucks.
Ninja Cleric 03-17-04, 12:38 PM	Psion/Monk... Is something like Gokou with anime flavor
EvilDuck 03-21-04, 07:04 PM	We'll be doing a gestalt campaign soon and here's what I'm going for: 5- Barbarian/Wizard 10- Frenzied Berzerker/Wizard 5- Barbarian/Archmage Of course, I could replace Wizard with Warmage, and I just now thought of this combination: 5- Barbarian/Bard 10- Barbarian/Dragon Disciple 5- Barbarian/Bard I'unno. What would you go with?
DarkThoughts24 03-22-04, 06:30 AM	almost anythin gestalted with the npc class expert is useful, ten skills of players chose and buffed with higher skill points per level rocks. except rogues, the ten skills of their choice is a good idea conceptually but honestly, can anyone name ten skills not on a rogues list that they would really want?
CDW22 03-22-04, 07:08 PM	Ogre/Half Ogre Barbarian/War Hulk, Bruce Banner's mentor, I will make this guy my first Savage Gestalt, heh....at 20th level, assuming you got on 18 on Strength Ability...70 Strenght in a rage, 64 out of Rage :| He's dumb as a post, but, my god, what CAN'T you do with 64-70 Strength!?!
DarkThoughts24 03-22-04, 10:05 PM	Add, for one... read and write for another... appraise will also suck fitting itno smallpassageways is also out
bitnine 03-22-04, 11:59 PM	Actually, something high ECL that has and progresses outsider hit dice might be real nice to mix with a full class progression.
CDW22 03-23-04, 02:34 AM	Darkperson: Well, he has 0 in all INT CHA and WIS skills, but he doesn't go illiterate, so he could still do those, I would guess. Reduce Person solves the other. For comparison, even the Tarrasque only has a 45 in Strength...
DarkThoughts24 03-24-04, 07:04 PM	yes but the 70 strength doesnt help the adding
EvilDuck 03-30-04, 08:49 PM	Originally posted by CDW22 He's dumb as a post, but, my god, what CAN'T you do with 64-70 Strength!?! Mork, the 70 Str ogre: Ack! Can't.. get.. dressed... muscles... too... big!
Munchmausen 03-30-04, 10:30 PM	I'd just hope the other characters "helping" the ogre were so good they qualify as exalted. Rogue - "Thunk, would you mind opening this bank vault for me? Huh? Buddy?" Thunk - (Grinning) "Buddy!" (Thunk)
DrKultra 03-31-04, 10:23 PM	Where you getting a 64-70 Str? I added Items, Inherit Bonuses, Racial and Advancment Bonuses (not rage) and got a 60 at best....
Panchaso 03-31-04, 11:56 PM	I just thought up this guy... how's it sound? Arcane Archer of Doom and Destruction Elf 1. Fighter1 / Wizard1 Feats: Scribe Scroll, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot 2. Fighter2 / Wizard2 Feats: Weapon Focus (Bow) 3. Fighter3 / Wizard3 Feats: Far Shot 4. Fighter4 / Wizard4 Feats: Weapon Specialization (Bow) 5. Ranger1 / SpellS1 Feats: Track 6. Ranger2 / Wizard5 Feats: Rapid Shot, Manyshot, any metamagic 7. SpellS2 / Wizard6 8. ArcArch1 / SpellS3 9. ArcArch2 / Wizard7 Feats: Shot on the Run/Improved Critical (Bow) 10. ArcArch3 / Wizard8 11. ArcArch4 / Wizard9 12. ArcArch5 / Wizard10 Feats: any metamagic, Improved Precise Shot 13. ArcArch6 / Wizard11 14. ArcArch7 / Wizard12 15. ArcArch8 / Wizard13 16. ArcArch9 / Wizard14 17. ArcArch10/ Wizard15 18. OotBow1 / Wizard16 19. OotBow2 / Wizard17 20. OotBow2 / Wizard18 he's got full BAB and wizard progressions, +5 arrows at will and the very handy imbue arrow thingie with some proper spells to stick to your arrows :D hm... some tinkering might be needed to get around the "no two PrC's at the same time" rule, but nothing mayor :smirk:
Engilbrand 04-01-04, 12:01 AM	We're going to start a Gestalt game Monday. Unfortunately, I've been turned down for this, but I desperately want to do it. I've been told "No" because he wants to keep it to base races. It only works with a large or larger creature. Personally, I like the Half-Ogre. Always Barbarian. Even if you hit epic, keep one side epic. Though fighter would also work perfectly well if you want. Especially after 20 in Barbarian. For the other class: Start with fighter for about 5 levels. Then 10 levels of War Hulk. Then 10 levels of Frenzied Berzerker. Then, just for fun, do Hulking Hurler. Or, instead of that, just jump right into Legendary Dreadnaught from the epic book. You want POWER!?!?!? There it is. Singlehandedly storm a castle. Wall of Force? HA! Use a greatsword with an eventual "Wield Oversized Weapon"..... I'm not going to do all of the math, but by about 30th level, if you just stick with Dreadnaught, and you started with an 18 to strenght, take the right feats.... You're almost guaranteed 50 damage on a hit, and considering that a full attack action with War Hulk can hit something crazy like 32 medium creatures, plus you throw in great cleave.... How about we rage and frenzy as well? Marvelous. That's about 63 for strength. That's even more. Spellcasters are perfectly fine. But they aren't my style. I am forever sad that my DM won't allow him. If a player can potentially cast Wish AND Miracle, why can't I critical for a maximum of 150? Wow. That makes me feel sick just looking at it. But it's a good kind of sickness. :)
BalancedOne 04-01-04, 11:38 AM	for fireball-hurling-fun a Ftr1/Sor18/spellsword1(comp.War.) - Battlemage20(from Mini.Handbook) Cha/Cha spellcasting, use your sor spells for buffs, and utility spells, you can also take cast all spells with -10% arcane failure
Millennium 04-01-04, 01:29 PM	A Sorcerer/Monk, focused on buff spells and Hadouken -I mean Magic Missile- could work quite well. There's the problem of adding a dependency on Charisma, but if all you need is buffs then you don't need Charisma to be all that high.
philopharynx 04-02-04, 11:31 AM	Originally posted by BalancedOne for fireball-hurling-fun a Ftr1/Sor18/spellsword1(comp.War.) - Battlemage20(from Mini.Handbook) Cha/Cha spellcasting, use your sor spells for buffs, and utility spells, you can also take cast all spells with -10% arcane failure And of course the first magic items you buy are rings of wizardry of your favorite spell levels. (I like 6th- prismatic eye, greater dispelling, lots of choices of to use with metamagic...) And of course you get double benefit because you double the spells from Both classes. Of course if you specifically want to be a fireball chucker. Wizard (Evoker) 10, Sorceror 10, Bard 10, Battlemage 10 with ring of wizardry at 3rd level. Over 30 3rd level before bonus spells, and 3 classes based off Charisma. With a 34 charisma you get 9 extra 3rd level spells and assuming a decent intelligence bonus, you are on the plus side of 40 3rd level spells a day - and if you use 4th and 5th level slots (and get an RoW IV) then you can cast more than 85 3rd level spells. Of course the bard doesn't get fireball, but you can use major image to fool people into thinking that you are! ____ As for the war hulk builds... I find that the miniatures handbook isn't worht the weight in my backpack considering how little balanced material there is in it. When a book gives a feat to a 3rd level character that blows away an epic feat, then there's a problem.
TheDarkLord 04-04-04, 04:56 AM	Got the whole unearthed arcana, and i'm sure many could add PrC's to this mix but what i like best is the Rogue/Wizard. Skills, skills, and MORE skills. Move Silently + Greater Invisibility, Any true seeing spells can be delt with by the proper use of the hide skill. Disable Device is an Int based Skill, No more problems with magic traps, alot of the rogues skills are intelligence based, and as with this gestalt combination i would boost intelligence and Dexterity only. Nothing else is needed. you become an invisible, silent, flying, death dealing machine, that is in my experience anyway. These two classes just seem to complement each other more than the others in my opinion.
Jefepato 04-04-04, 05:48 AM	We're starting a 10th-level gestalt campaign soon. The DM's ruling is that LA is not gestalted (that is, it takes up both "sides" of the progression), but racial HD are. My character is an ogre. With 2 LA, progression works out like this: 1-4: Giant/Cleric 5-8: Anti-Paladin/Cleric If you think this is bad, you should see the githzerai monk/psion.
Villain by Necessity 04-05-04, 03:06 AM	Looking at the xph excerpt, I am working on a soulblade/monk for the campaign we are starting. The other players are using a sohei/healer and a wujen/hexblade. The dm has ruled that I can use flurry of blows with the blade.
cambric 04-05-04, 10:23 AM	Playing this combo right now, and I love it. Very powerful combination. My daughter is playing Monk/Cleric, and she's amazing with it. Decided to try Gestalt's since we only have her and I to play, and my son is DMing. I don't like to have DMPC's, nor having to use more than one character. We all love having Gestalt's and highly recommend it for SMALL groups. I would never allow this if we had 5 or more people to play. Cam
Moonstonedragon 04-05-04, 04:58 PM	If going by players handbook id have to say monk and rogue cant beat sneak attack with monks unarm damage and fury of blows attack
flyingmoose 04-06-04, 01:04 AM	Rogue/ranger. When the majority of your damage is sneak attack, you could be fighting with a pair of daggers and be as effective, plus you've got a higher BAB and ultimately more attacks than a rogue/monk.
SailorNash 04-06-04, 03:04 AM	What I'd do would build a Barb 10/CoG 10/Sorc 20. (CoG is from the BoED). You'd get barbie HP, full Rage progression, 4th level divine spells, CHA to saves, full BAB, Uncanny Dodge, and full Sorc spellcasting. Pick Sorc spells to compliment your melee ability. Feel free to sub 2-4 Barb levels for Fighter levels if more feats are needed/desired.
Nifft 04-06-04, 03:49 AM	How about this guy: 1: Wiz1/Barb1 2: Wiz2/Clr1 3: Wiz3/Clr2 4: Clr3/Barb2 5: MT1/Barb3 6: MT2/Barb4 7: MT3/Barb5 8: MT4/Barb6 9: MT5/Barb7 10: MT6/Barb8 11: MT7/Barb9 12: MT8/Barb10 13: MT9/Barb11 14: MT10/Barb12 15: Archmage1/Barb13 16: Thaum1/Clr4 17: Thaum2/Clr5 18: Thaum3/Clr6 19: Thaum4/Clr7 20: Thaum5/Clr8 19th level Wiz, 18th level Cleric, 13th level Barbarian (DR 3/-). Variations: - Monk13 or Ranger13 instead of Barb13 - Archmage or Loremaster instead of Thaumaturge Other idea: 1: Monk1/Wiz1 2: Monk2/Wiz2 3: Monk3/Wiz3 4: Monk4/Clr1 5: Monk5/Clr2 6: Monk6/Clr3 7: Monk7/MT1 8: Monk8/MT2 9: Monk9/MT3 10: Monk10/MT4 11: Monk11/MT5 12: Monk12/MT6 13: Monk13/MT7 14: Monk14/MT8 15: Monk15/MT9 16: Monk16/MT10 17: Monk17/Archmage1 18: Monk18/Archmage2 19: Monk19/Archmage3 20: Monk20/Archmage4 Cleric 13, Wizard 17, Monk 20 Variations: - Ranger instead of Monk - Paladin instead of Monk, Sorc instead of Wiz -- N
Ulden Throatbane 04-06-04, 09:44 AM	Nifft, I tink your character is a prime reason why UA recommends disallowing classes like Mystic Thurge when using gestalt rules ;)
Myriala 04-06-04, 12:10 PM	Ultimate Gelstalt spell-wielder (damage wise), I think 10 wiz / 10 sor / 5 war wizard of cormyr / 5 archmage / 10 incantatrix (like those metamagics ?)
Myriala 04-06-04, 12:14 PM	Also a good melee combo : 20 ftr / 20 psion (Str) or this one I like better 17 ftr / 3 human paragon (str) / 20 psion (str) love those nifty mind blasts / biofeedback / graft weapon / deep impact, etc... (Shapechange too)
Myriala 04-06-04, 12:16 PM	nice roguish and sneak combo : Rog 20 / ftr 10 / invisible blade 10 or altenatively rog 10 / ftr 20 / invisible blade 10
Nifft 04-06-04, 12:21 PM	In that case: Bard20/Barb20 -- "I SING LOUD WHEN I AM ANGRY!!!" Greater Rage & Inspire Courage +4 -- he's a monster! A monster who sings! He wears a Mithral Breastplate of Command, a Ring of Force Shield, and holds a really frightening Greatsword of some sort. His Cohort is a Druid/Rogue. :) -- N
jensun 04-06-04, 05:24 PM	Ultimate Gelstalt spell-wielder (damage wise), I think 10 wiz / 10 sor / 5 war wizard of cormyr / 5 archmage / 10 incantatrix (like those metamagics ?) You cant take 2 PrC's at any one level increase with gestalt. Rog 20 / ftr 10 / invisible blade 10 Invisible Blade is only a 5 level PrC in CW. You can use the authors expanded 10 level version but frankly the 5 level one is probably stronger, except in relation to the pre-reqs. Got the whole unearthed arcana, and i'm sure many could add PrC's to this mix but what i like best is the Rogue/Wizard. Personally I prefer Ranger|Wizard or Sorc. 3 good saves, lots of skill points, lots of HP plenty of combat abilities. Monk combined with either Cleric or Druid is also very strong. Really there are so many options with Gestalt that you are free to make the character that you want and you can ignore min/maxxing for the most part. Unless you are going Commoner/Warrior you are pretty much going to be effective with whatever picks you make.
Degobah 04-06-04, 10:45 PM	I think you should be allowed to gestalt LA with NPC classes (aristocrat, expert, commoner: maybe not warrior or adept). We've used this in non-gestalt parties and it seemed to work, actually.
flyingmoose 04-07-04, 03:06 AM	Well according to this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=179686), you can use flurry and TWF at the same time. So my new combat favorite is monk/fighter 20, Specialize in Unarmed and take all the TWF feats. Gotta have the Dex for it though.
philopharynx 04-07-04, 05:45 PM	Originally posted by Nifft In that case: Bard20/Barb20 -- "I SING LOUD WHEN I AM ANGRY!!!" Greater Rage & Inspire Courage +4 -- he's a monster! A monster who sings! He wears a Mithral Breastplate of Command, a Ring of Force Shield, and holds a really frightening Greatsword of some sort. His Cohort is a Druid/Rogue. :) -- N Personally I have cohorts be non-gestalt classes in the one gestalt game I use. This helps solidify that they are secondary characters. You should take some of the bard levels as warchanter (warsinger) from CW. Inspire recklessness works well with rage. Sure you make yourself easy to hit, but it gives you a huge bonus to hit. Which means you can always power attack at full. If you boost your strength up to max, then you have one major damage machine. Just make sure you have a cleric/druid to supply the healing magic you're going to need when you come down. :)
Dark Jco. 04-08-04, 12:31 PM	I'm playing in a Rokugan setting and the DMs sister is playing a rouge/ninja (the Rokugan one). She has 20d6 worth of sneak attack at level 20 on four attacks and all of the rouge skill points. When she flanks she deals 1d10 (Katana) + 20d6 + 6 without any magic bonuses. Is this really allowed? I think the DM is just allowing his sister to get away with it because she might pout.
flyingmoose 04-09-04, 02:07 AM	Yeah... that falls under two classes giving the same benefit. If two classes get the same thing, you choose whichever class gains it at the faster rate. They both get +1d6 sneak attack every other level, so she'd only have +10d6 sneak attack. This has been covered elsewhere.
Nifft 04-10-04, 03:27 PM	Mmmm, expanded Psionics Handbook! Ultra-Scout 1: Ranger1 / Nomad1 2: Ranger2 / Nomad2 3: Ranger3 / Nomad3 4: Ranger4 / Nomad4 5: Illithid Slayer1 / Nomad5 6: Rogue1 / Slayer2 7: Rogue2 / Slayer3 8: Rogue3 / Slayer4 9: Rogue4 / Slayer5 10: Rogue5 / Slayer6 11: Rogue6 / Slayer7 12: Rogue7 / Slayer8 13: Rogue8 / Slayer9 14: Rogue9 / Slayer10 15: Elocator1 / Ranger5 16: Elocator2 / Nomad6 17: Elocator3 / Ranger6 19: Elocator4 / Ranger7 20: Elocator5 / Nomad7 End Result: Psion20, Rogue9 (+4d6 Sneak Attack), Ranger7, Slayer10. For more sneak attack and Rogue special abilities, replace last 6 levels (15-20) with "Rogue / Nomad". The Slave Emperor 1: Fighter1 / Telepath1 2: Fighter2 / Telepath2 3: Fighter3 / Telepath3 4: Fighter4 / Telepath4 5: Fighter5 / Telepath5 6: Telepath6 / Thrallherd1 7: Fighter6 / Thrallherd2 8: Fighter7 / Thrallherd3 9: Fighter8 / Thrallherd4 10: Fighter9 / Thrallherd5 11: Fighter10 / Thrallherd6 12: Fighter11 / Thrallherd7 13: Fighter12 / Thrallherd8 14: Fighter13 / Thrallherd9 15: Thrallherd10 / Telepath6 16: Blackguard1 / Telepath7 17: Blackguard2 / Telepath8 18: Blackguard3 / Telepath9 19: Blackguard4 / Telepath10 20: Blackguard5 / Telepath11 End result: Ftr 13 (7 bonus Feats), Blackguard 5, Telepath 20, Thrallherd 10. If you only want to focus on one stat, replace Telepath with Wilder, and blow a Feat on Mindlink. It's actually okay for Wilders, since it adds two extra Powers to their Powers Known list, and Wilders don't get nearly as many Powers as regular Psions. However, they lose out in that their "+1 Level" isn't nearly as good as that of the Psion. Still, it's nice to have everything work off of Charisma. Other instantly obvious combos: - Monk / Psychic Warrior (key ability is Wisdom) - Cleric / Psychic Warrior - Rogue / Psychic Warrior - Rogue / Psion - Paladin / Wilder (key ability is Charisma) - Bard / Psychic Warrior - Ranger / Psion - Barbarian / Egoist -- N
Masterful_Norg 04-11-04, 01:28 AM	Deleted
Dumb_N00b 04-11-04, 01:33 AM	Monk Fighter Ultimate Shaolin Killin machine of destruction. Flurry of blows that is 20/20/20/15/10 base land speed of 120 Armor bounuses If your useing the class dependent armor class bonus varient he has the best armor class :D also some nice bonus feats uses all weapons nice unarmed and armed attacks finnally when he reaches epic he get a bonus feat at about every level (average)
strenoth 04-13-04, 12:02 AM	Thoughts of a Soulknife/fighter who multis into soulknife/kensai come to mind.... or a Wilder/Sorcerer (two different sets of abilities, but both draw on Charisma...)
jedrious 04-13-04, 01:45 AM	Definately have to go with soulknife/swashbuckler
Bocotainin 04-13-04, 03:59 AM	Rouge 9 / Fighter 9 Ranger 1 / Fighter 1 Order of the Bow Ini 10 / Deepwood sniper 10 Pick outsider, evil for favored enemy. Pick sanctify martial strike and nemisis exaulted feats. Get a +1 blood seeking, exit wound, (lawful/chaotic), holy greatbow. Shoot +2 sonic, evil outsider bane, brilliant energy (if your dm lets 3.0 be, else another +1 and either law or chaos) true silvered cold iron arrows. Do bizzare amounts of damage to hordes of demons or devils with a single shot: (d10+5d8+d6+d6+d4+d6 sonic+2d6 holy+2d6 bane+specilization + mighty+5+5d6 sneak attack) avg 70 damage+mighty AND can ignore all cover and can reduce total concealment to a 5% miss chance AND hits enemys behind the first target if you beat their ac by 4 or more, then keeps going (note brilliant energy reducing ac to really low), can turn around 90 degree angles goes through solid walls, crits on a 18-20 with a x5. Say ow. You can instead opt for 5 shots that do 5d8 less as a full attack (50+mighty)x5=40 off a dead balor. Attack bonus at least 24/24/19/14/9 vs ac of 9 for the flat footed balor.
jedrious 04-13-04, 09:29 AM	Originally posted by Bocotainin Rouge 9 / Fighter 9 Ranger 1 / Fighter 1 Order of the Bow Ini 10 / Deepwood sniper 10 Pick outsider, evil for favored enemy. Pick sanctify martial strike and nemisis exaulted feats. Get a +1 blood seeking, exit wound, (lawful/chaotic), holy greatbow. Shoot +2 sonic, evil outsider bane, brilliant energy (if your dm lets 3.0 be, else another +1 and either law or chaos) true silvered cold iron arrows. Do bizzare amounts of damage to hordes of demons or devils with a single shot: (d10+5d8+d6+d6+d4+d6 sonic+2d6 holy+2d6 bane+specilization + mighty+5+5d6 sneak attack) avg 70 damage+mighty AND can ignore all cover and can reduce total concealment to a 5% miss chance AND hits enemys behind the first target if you beat their ac by 4 or more, then keeps going (note brilliant energy reducing ac to really low), can turn around 90 degree angles goes through solid walls, crits on a 18-20 with a x5. Say ow. You can instead opt for 5 shots that do 5d8 less as a full attack (50+mighty)x5=40 off a dead balor. Attack bonus at least 24/24/19/14/9 vs ac of 9 for the flat footed balor. several problems here, first being you cannot have two prestige classes at once, second most demons get their ac from natural armor negating benefit from brilliant energy third keen and improved crit do not stack meaning crit range is 19-20
Luminosity 04-13-04, 09:54 AM	Didn't read the whole thread, but if you're still using 3.0 Psions: 20 Egoist/10 Barbarian/10 Warhulk. Freakishly powerful with +20 to his prime casting stat.
FenixZero 04-13-04, 10:09 AM	Soulknife/Rogue 20. Psy Strike and SA for 1d6 + 20d6 + 5d8! Or do 1d6 + 20d6 and five ability damage to int, wis, or cha! I have an idea for my campign to have an evil soulknife group after my PCs. And the group (so far) is figther/soulknife, rogue/soulknife, cleric/soulknife, and wiz(or sor)/soulknife. All staying in the base classes. And in my game I am using some different rules. You can gestalt PrCs as long as they aren't of the same type. The types are Fighting types, Casting types, and support types. Supports types can be combined with my approval. I came up with a level 30 character with MY houserules on gestalt: Monk/Rogue 20 with Deulist/ShadowDancer 10. Deulist is Fighter type and Shadowdancer is a support type. FenixZero
SaintX 04-14-04, 12:37 PM	has anyone noticed that if you start fighter1/wizard1 and then go sorcerer1/wizard2 all the way up, at level 20 you have a 20 bab?
jensun 04-14-04, 12:48 PM	Or not. The wording of the gestalt rules is quite unclear. I dont believe the intent was that at each level you looked to see how things changed at that level and apply those adjustments. As I understand it everytime you gain a level you look at each "strand" of your character, determine the base saves and BAB and use the bst of all of them. That seems to fit with the rules, is logical and makes sense. It also requires significantly less bookwork when creating higher level characters.
SaintX 04-14-04, 02:43 PM	however, making multiclass gestalts is almost impossible if you dont allow for that. i dont see another way to do it. i know its a horrible exploit, but its there. just like the wizard20 red wizard10 other 10=caster level 30 i know its wrong... but its there. its half the point of a gestalt. or what about the rogue 19 assassin 9 invisible blade 5 swashbuckler 3 halfling paragon 3 master thrower 1...(a slight variation on the machinegun rogue) thats 18d6 sneakattack. a very focused character. but no more threatening than a cleric/wizard. sure it overpowered. its all overpowered.
Lina_Inverse 04-14-04, 03:26 PM	Originally posted by SaintX however, making multiclass gestalts is almost impossible if you dont allow for that. i dont see another way to do it. i know its a horrible exploit, but its there. just like the wizard20 red wizard10 other 10=caster level 30 i know its wrong... but its there. its half the point of a gestalt. half the point?no the point of gestalts is for 2 or 3 person partys.not cheese.i rather like to EAT cheese thank you.and who needs multiclass gestalts RAR!!!oh the red wizard thing dosent work,theres this rule that you apply the best to a progression(but not abilitys) +1caster vs. +1caster,the best is obvisly +1caster. ok onto normal gestaltness. Monk20-Druid20 is veryveryguud.it removes the monks MAD and gives the druid better ac and more attacks.yum. Druid20/wizard5,cleric5,mystic theurg10.look all 8th level or lower spells EVER PRINTED! cleric/anything is fun! Fightertype/fighter type is kinda dumb,at least take rogue or something.too much overlap. expert gestalts make my eyes bleed ;___;
Malachite Green 04-14-04, 06:41 PM	Well, I had been hoping for some more insightful Gestalt builds than the ones in this thread. Too many of them are blatantly illegal, and many don't seem to add to the effectiveness of a character. Sure a Ranger 20 || Wizard 20 has full casting and ranger skills and d8 HD and all good saves, but you've got to ask yourself, what is this guy going to DO every round? Is he going to cast or is he going you attack? It seems to me that it's more effective to have a party that uses gestalt to simply increase the power of the role they already play in the party. Like the Fighter / Monk who fights like a monk, but has a better attack bonus and has a bunch of fighter feats to help him gets martial arts masteries or just compliment his fighting style. A friend of mine put together a build like this: Monk 12 / Shintao Monk 8 Fighter 13 / Reaping Mauler 2 / Divine Disciple 5 And this guy is Vow of Poverty. Just goes to show that you can never have enough feats. This build ends up with more than 30. My DM likes this one: Barbarian 8 / Fighter 2 / Champion of Gwynharwyf 10 Bard 16 / Mage of the Arcane Order 4 But I'm not sure I do. It doesn't seem focused enough. I am thinking more along the likes of getting really powerful abilities that usually have a cost of decreased casting, like this: Sorceror 15 / Mage of the Arcane Order 1 / Archmage 4 Ranger 4 / Wizard 2 / Fatespinner 10 / Fighter or whatever 4 Yes, your caster level for the wizard spells sucks, but who cares? You just took casting on that side for the "spin" abilities so you could use them with your primary (sorceror) casting. Plus, you can leave your wizard spells completely empty and fill them with spells from the spellpool for more versatility since you don't really NEED them. I was also thinking about a similar build with spellsword instead of Fatespinner who uses that ability to channel two spells to unleash a flurry of spells. Two spells from a sword attack (from, let's say, an attack of opportunity), one from normal casting, and one quickened. Another guy wants to make a Monk / Shou Disciple / Bladesinger flurry machine. I'm not sure how that will end up, but I think it will increase that fighter's effectiveness. So, are there any Gestalt builds out there that increase the effectivess of your primary ability (like that Fighter / Warhulk, which I too thought of and had my DM deny)? I'm especially interested in arcane builds. It is too easy to build an awesome divine build. And I don't want to see a character that can do everything. Any character that can do everything can do nothing WELL.
DarkThoughts24 04-14-04, 07:24 PM	am too lazy to look but has fighter/soulknife been listed yet?
Engilbrand 04-15-04, 02:56 AM	My roommate and I just came up with this one. Uses the Expanded Psionics Handbook. And, eventually, the old Epic-level handbook. 15 soulknife, 15 psion, 10 Psion Uncarnate. Make it an Elan. If you want, ditch some levels here and there and go for some rogue. This will give you the ability to become a Void Incarnate. From what we've gathered, when everything is said and done, you become unstoppable. Literally. Up to 20th, you're talking a character who can throw around powers and poke people in the head with his knives. Look at all of the abilities for the classes and you'll see just how broken it can all really get. Walk through anything solid and, eventually, WALLS OF FORCE! The Elan itself is a broken race. By 20 psion, with well over 300 power points, you can ignore over 600 points of damage. Or just manipulate things so that, with inertial armor, nothing can hit you and, if it does, it doesn't do anything. If you hit Void, your mind can't be taken by anything. It's almost like you don't exist. Talk about the ultimate spy. As a telepath, anything you want is yours. Just read all of the stuff for these and you'll put it together. It's 2AM here, so it's time for bed. This mix is so incredibly broken, it's not even funny. Especailly if you give him Vow of Poverty. WOW!
vinni_corpse 04-15-04, 12:15 PM	I've just started a human ranger/paladin. Basically an overly religious ranger. Not everybody tries to make the strongest PC possible. His background is that a black dragon killed his family, he was taken in by a a small nomadic group of woodsmen. Platinum Knight is going to come in around 11. Basically all he wants to do is eradicate evil dragons. With a bow.
Marvin 04-15-04, 01:48 PM	Sorcerer/Druid? Take the feats to cast in wild shape, pump Wis and Cha, who cares about anything other than CON since you'll be in wild shape for most of your life. Decent HD and BaB, nat armour from the wild shape, druid special abilities, familiar and animal companions, in addition to double-full spell progressions. Cleric/Druid and pump WIS just as hard as it will go for a buffing, healing, summoning machine. Can't see why wild shape wouldn't stack with Righteous Might, for example. Fighter/wizards aren't half as much fun as swashbuckler-rogue-duelist-IB/wizard (with AT if you can manage it). INT bonus to AC (twice) and damage, some sneak attack, quite possibly full BaB if you time the rogue levels right, the only realy drawback is low HD.
Nifft 04-15-04, 02:25 PM	Originally posted by vinni_corpse Not everybody tries to make the strongest PC possible. Please check the thread title! :) I'm sure "Most Interesting RP Gestalt" would be a nice thread, too. -- N
SaintX 04-15-04, 02:29 PM	Originally posted by Lina_Inverse [Druid20/wizard5,cleric5,mystic theurg10.look all 8th level or lower spells EVER PRINTED! [/B] mystic theurge is strictly prohibited, as are eldritch knight, arcane trickster and any class that basically combines two base classes.
Rahie_Leios 04-15-04, 11:10 PM	The ultamite combo is for damage is the new Psionic 1-20 soulknife/rouge. Add the psi strike d8's to the sneak attack d6's with the soulknifes bastard sword d10 plus all the enchantments on his weapon. At lvl 20 1d8+5+8d6+5d8+str bonus in one hit (how can you beat that)
jensun 04-16-04, 03:35 AM	With a power attacking Frenzied Beserker using Divine Might and Arcane Strike...:D
DarkThoughts24 04-16-04, 11:54 PM	Originally posted by Rahie_Leios The ultamite combo is for damage is the new Psionic 1-20 soulknife/rouge. Add the psi strike d8's to the sneak attack d6's with the soulknifes bastard sword d10 plus all the enchantments on his weapon. At lvl 20 1d8+5+8d6+5d8+str bonus in one hit (how can you beat that) make the soulsaber vicious and kinetic burst.
oneday 04-17-04, 01:19 AM	I don't feel like going through 6 pages to see, but has anyone mentioned a Psionic Warrior/Monk combination? Who needs the Fist of Zuoken...
vinni_corpse 04-17-04, 01:38 AM	guess I forgot the title as I was reading. Didn't mean anything by my last post. Maybe I should keep my two cents to myself? Or put it somewhere else. How bout a half silver dragon/anything cleric20/fighter10/divine champion 10 named Alejandro(slayer of a beholder nation(albeit, one poorly played by the DM))? Strength and thunder domain (dragon mag. diety, Perun). +3 Shocking Great Axe. Divine might(power?), or Greater aspect of the diety, or an intensified bull's strength. (originally Alejandro, half silver/elf Clr13/DvCh6, killer of beholders) (i like parenthesis) has anyone started that thread yet? it's too late for me to read that much (never mind, i did)
Michael Tree 04-17-04, 03:01 AM	Originally posted by SaintX has anyone noticed that if you start fighter1/wizard1 and then go sorcerer1/wizard2 all the way up, at level 20 you have a 20 bab? I'm surprised that UA didn't just say to use the Fractional Base Bonuses variant (p.73). That's what I would do if I ever ran a Gestalt game.
DarkThoughts24 04-17-04, 11:35 AM	Originally posted by Michael Tree I'm surprised that UA didn't just say to use the Fractional Base Bonuses variant (p.73). That's what I would do if I ever ran a Gestalt game. even if you ran it with the frac bab/save you will never have the fight1/wiz20/sorc 19 with the +20bab. it comes out to +10.5. people know this already its been said to death.
Part-Human2 04-17-04, 01:49 PM	Psionic Power Points pool together now so a Psion 20/Wilder 20 would have over 700 Power Points (depending on bonus from high ability scores).
DarkThoughts24 04-17-04, 05:46 PM	Originally posted by Part-Human2 Psionic Power Points pool together now so a Psion 20/Wilder 20 would have over 700 Power Points (depending on bonus from high ability scores). wow never considered that. thats incredibly frightening means all powers must be maxed out ... yeah thers the power class look no further
Michael Tree 04-17-04, 08:36 PM	Originally posted by DarkThoughts24 yeah thers the power class look no further It's certainly powerful, but it's a bit of a glass tiger. It will only have good Will saves, compared to virtually all other Gestalt characters who have 2 or all 3 good saves. It also only gets d6 hit points, which is fragile for Gestalt characters. Perhaps even more frightening is a Psion/Psychic Warrior. They get about 200pp less at level 20 than the Psion/Wilder, but have good Fort and Will saves, weapon and armor proficiencies, more powers, tons of feats, and powers from the PsyWarrior list.
Nifft 04-17-04, 09:10 PM	Originally posted by Part-Human2 Psionic Power Points pool together now so a Psion 20/Wilder 20 would have over 700 Power Points (depending on bonus from high ability scores). Nope, sorry. Each level grants the MAXIMUM of the two class' abilities, so you'd be far better off going for a Psion/Ranger, a Cleric/PsiWar or a Wilder/Sorcerer. This is the same reason that a level of Wizard/Archmage is a waste -- you don't get the same benefit ("+1 Caster Level") from two classes at the same time. -- N
DarkThoughts24 04-17-04, 11:22 PM	Originally posted by Nifft Nope, sorry. Each level grants the MAXIMUM of the two class' abilities, so you'd be far better off going for a Psion/Ranger, a Cleric/PsiWar or a Wilder/Sorcerer. This is the same reason that a level of Wizard/Archmage is a waste -- you don't get the same benefit ("+1 Caster Level") from two classes at the same time. -- N by your answer, wizards and sorcs wouldnt have sperate spell slots. they are two manifestign classes with their own list of powers and power pools, what seperates the psionic multiclasses is their pool combines, so yes usin the xph rules and the gestalt variant as written, they do add together if you adhoc it in your games its your game do as thou wilt but the thread is looking for the powerhouse combos using rules as written in which yes the mofos will have close to 700 pps by 20th level and now that meand they would be havign craploads of maxed out powers per battle. of course though this might be the build that actually really required those focus feats
jedrious 04-17-04, 11:59 PM	and would make for really resilient elans
Part-Human2 04-18-04, 12:27 AM	Originally posted by Nifft Nope, sorry. Each level grants the MAXIMUM of the two class' abilities, so you'd be far better off going for a Psion/Ranger, a Cleric/PsiWar or a Wilder/Sorcerer. This is the same reason that a level of Wizard/Archmage is a waste -- you don't get the same benefit ("+1 Caster Level") from two classes at the same time. -- N So a Spell Point Gestalt Sorcerer/Wizard gets only Spell Points for 1 class?
DarkThoughts24 04-18-04, 10:33 PM	Originally posted by Michael Tree It's certainly powerful, but it's a bit of a glass tiger. It will only have good Will saves, compared to virtually all other Gestalt characters who have 2 or all 3 good saves. It also only gets d6 hit points, which is fragile for Gestalt characters. Perhaps even more frightening is a Psion/Psychic Warrior. They get about 200pp less at level 20 than the Psion/Wilder, but have good Fort and Will saves, weapon and armor proficiencies, more powers, tons of feats, and powers from the PsyWarrior list. just noticed your post not bad at all
EvilDuck 04-18-04, 10:58 PM	Originally posted by Part-Human2 Psionic Power Points pool together now so a Psion 20/Wilder 20 would have over 700 Power Points (depending on bonus from high ability scores). I don't think it takes gestalt into account when saying that. You'd have two seperate spell pools (one for Psion, one for Wilder) that could only be used for their respective classes. Of course, I don't have the XPH yet...
DrKultra 04-18-04, 10:59 PM	Figther6/Swash4/5IB/5MT//20 Rouge That is, if you take the next feats: Quick Draw, TWF Tree, Expert Tactician and Rapid Shot. After that you are throwing 36 attacks a round if my calculations are correct. How you may ask? First of all, 8 attacks + 1 Haste = 9 Attacks. Now all this attacks will be under 30ft so using the Invisible Blade powers, you Bluff evrey attack for a Loose of Dex Mod to AC, which means Extra Attacks for having Expert Tactician. Attack toal: 18 Now, since you have 5 levels in MT. you have Palm Throw. This doubles you attack rate. Attack Total: 36 Now, this are 36 attacks that are all when the enemy is FF and under 30ft which means +10d6 Sneak attack. So thats 36d4+360d6 = 90 + 1,260 = 1,350 Damage per round not counting DR and stuff. Now, you might get that Friendly Sorc to cast Enlarge Person in you for a while. that enlarges your daggers, so its not 396d6 per turn! Damage total? 1,386 damage per round. This is all taking in mind a Magical Item which name I dont remeber, which makes all thrown items as if enchanted by Returnign and Distance abilities. The best thing? this is before you add Int mod from the Swash levels.
Nifft 04-19-04, 10:07 AM	Originally posted by Part-Human2 So a Spell Point Gestalt Sorcerer/Wizard gets only Spell Points for 1 class? If Spell Points are pooled: YES. The better number of points, which is certainly Sorcerer. If Spell Points are not pooled: NO. Unpooled spell points are similar to spell-slots, so different casters maintain their own. -- N
Nifft 04-19-04, 10:13 AM	Originally posted by DarkThoughts24 by your answer, wizards and sorcs wouldnt have sperate spell slots. they are two manifestign classes with their own list of powers and power pools, what seperates the psionic multiclasses is their pool combines, so yes usin the xph rules and the gestalt variant as written, they do add together Wrong. My answer is that Psions are different from Wizards and Sorcerers. If there were a rule to allow Sorcerers to cast any spell that Wizards knew, then you'd be right -- they'd be "pooling" spell-slots, and thus, would only gain whichever were better at each level. Psions pool, and no other spellcasting class does that. A Wilder/Psion would still be very powerful, but I think it would make more sense to go Psion/PsiWar, so you get 3/4 BAB, a buttload of power points, armor & weapon profs, and a bunch of psionic feats. Your claim is like saying that a Ftr/Barb is the best, because they'll have BAB +40 by 20th level! (Just think of Power Points like you'd think of BAB, and it'll all make sense.) -- N
strenoth 04-19-04, 01:25 PM	but power points are not BaB, they are not a feature all classes get. and you truthefully do have two seperate pools of Power Points, one for each class, but since you can draw from either pool to power either classes's powers, it's easier to just write it up as one pool. That's why you get to add in bonus PP from each ability score, not one ability score. Really, the only difference betweeen the psionic PP, and the SPUM, is that the points pool. with the rule you are creating, you want to cripple a gestalt that's already only on par with a wizard/sorcerer gestalt, minus the ability to learns more spells for the wizard half. as a matter of fact, a psion/wilder already knows fewer powers the a wizard/sorcer knows spells.
Nifft 04-19-04, 01:48 PM	*shrug* I really don't care if the Psion/Wilder is balanced against the Wizard/Sorcerer. Gestalts are not balanced, not against each other or any other damn thing. PP/level is a class feature, just like Wizard spells/day. You can't get it twice, just like you can't take a level of Wizard/Archmage and get double caster level and two levels of spells per day. I'm not even sure if a Psion/Wilder can get more powers known than just a straight Psion. That requires some thought, and some rule-checking. In the mean time: Psions make excellent Gestalt characters! Psion/Rogue, Wilder/Paladin, PsiWar/Monk, Psion/Barbarian, Wilder/Bard -- they just don't cross well with each other. Oh well. -- N
DarkThoughts24 04-19-04, 02:42 PM	Originally posted by Nifft Wrong. My answer is that Psions are different from Wizards and Sorcerers. If there were a rule to allow Sorcerers to cast any spell that Wizards knew, then you'd be right -- they'd be "pooling" spell-slots, and thus, would only gain whichever were better at each level. Psions pool, and no other spellcasting class does that. A Wilder/Psion would still be very powerful, but I think it would make more sense to go Psion/PsiWar, so you get 3/4 BAB, a buttload of power points, armor & weapon profs, and a bunch of psionic feats. Your claim is like saying that a Ftr/Barb is the best, because they'll have BAB +40 by 20th level! (Just think of Power Points like you'd think of BAB, and it'll all make sense.) -- N psp pool isnt bab, it is the limit that they can use their class powers per day. the same vein as spell slots. and the class feature of psionics is that the classes pool. its a feature of that brand of power to deny it is to toss away a class feature. like if a fighter and a prestige class taken at the same level get a bonus feat, and you only allow one bonus feat due to repeatin class features...
Nifft 04-19-04, 02:50 PM	Originally posted by DarkThoughts24 like if a fighter and a prestige class taken at the same level get a bonus feat, and you only allow one bonus feat due to repeatin class features... That's exactly right. A level 1 Fighter/PsiWar would get 1 bonus Feat, but he could pick from any Fighter or Psionic Feat he wanted. Class features overlap, they do not stack. A Rogue2/Monk2 gets Evasion, nothing better. You only get the best of your two classes. And that's still pretty damn good. -- N
DarkThoughts24 04-19-04, 08:54 PM	Originally posted by Nifft That's exactly right. A level 1 Fighter/PsiWar would get 1 bonus Feat, but he could pick from any Fighter or Psionic Feat he wanted. Class features overlap, they do not stack. A Rogue2/Monk2 gets Evasion, nothing better. You only get the best of your two classes. And that's still pretty damn good. -- N so you are sayin a first level figher wizard only gets one extra feat since it too is a repeatin class feature?
Rahie_Leios 04-19-04, 10:29 PM	Psions combining power points with weilders is legal as a wizard and sorcerer have multiple spells and spells per day. But just as a wiz/sor has to divide spells per day per classes gotten from a psion weilder would only be able to add there points to the powers gained in that class. 700 pp but only about 350 per set.
Nifft 04-19-04, 10:32 PM	Originally posted by DarkThoughts24 so you are sayin a first level figher wizard only gets one extra feat since it too is a repeatin class feature? Nope, because at 1st level a Wizard gets "Scribe Scroll", not "Bonus Feat". Smarter to ask about level 10. -- N
Rahie_Leios 04-19-04, 10:33 PM	If a psy warior fighter only gains 1 bonus feat instead of two does a barbarin fighter get ither rage or the feat. (not totaly understanding all of gestalt yet but getting there)
Nifft 04-19-04, 10:42 PM	You get the maximum of both class features -- the bigger HD, the larger number of skill points, the union of both class skill lists. If you take a Fighter/Barbarian or a Wizard/Barbarian, you still get exactly HD d12. If both classes have an identical feature at a specific level -- say, Archmage "+1 Caster Level" and Wizard "+1 Caster Level", you only get that feature once. Thus my argument about "Bonus Feat" only applying only once per level, and Power Points only accruing once per level. HOWEVER: Gestalts are by their very nature "broken", so feel free to do whatever you'd like. I'm planning on running a gestalt game soon, so I'm hammering out rules to keep it sane (not balanced, just sane). -- N
Rahie_Leios 04-19-04, 10:45 PM	What about the paladin of freedom/ Barbarian . Or the Barbarian/rouge. Or everyones favorite the cleric/druid
DarkThoughts24 04-20-04, 07:24 PM	Originally posted by Nifft Nope, because at 1st level a Wizard gets "Scribe Scroll", not "Bonus Feat". Smarter to ask about level 10. -- N my err many dms i know tend to allow simply a bonus feat instead of ss (some prefer toi have an early spell mastery in lieu of scrollmaking* but even at level 10 there would be two feats because it isnt the same feat. now back to the point of arguement sorcs dont lose their spellslots, wizards dont lose their spells, one psiclass shouldnt lose its power pool. next you will tell me that because the wilder only learns one power and the psion learns 3, a psion/wilder only learns 3 powers because the psi has the larger power selection
DarkThoughts24 04-20-04, 07:27 PM	Originally posted by Nifft You get the maximum of both class features -- the bigger HD, the larger number of skill points, the union of both class skill lists. If you take a Fighter/Barbarian or a Wizard/Barbarian, you still get exactly HD d12. If both classes have an identical feature at a specific level -- say, Archmage "+1 Caster Level" and Wizard "+1 Caster Level", you only get that feature once. Thus my argument about "Bonus Feat" only applying only once per level, and Power Points only accruing once per level. HOWEVER: Gestalts are by their very nature "broken", so feel free to do whatever you'd like. I'm planning on running a gestalt game soon, so I'm hammering out rules to keep it sane (not balanced, just sane). -- N in your example you are using the wizard and the archmage for the same class, if you had taken even a single level of bard or sorc or even assassin you can use archmage levels for that instead. and why is that? because its two different casting classes! much like psions!
tiornys 04-21-04, 09:20 PM	Originally posted by Nifft If both classes have an identical feature at a specific level -- say, Archmage "+1 Caster Level" and Wizard "+1 Caster Level", you only get that feature once. Thus my argument about "Bonus Feat" only applying only once per level, and Power Points only accruing once per level. The problem with this is that it ignores multiclassing. Strictly following this interpretation, I can arrange my fighter and psychic warrior levels such that I get the bonus feats at different levels. Of course, doing so is just as absurd as allowing the ftr1/wiz 19//sor 20 to have a +20 BAB. The easiest solution to the BAB issue is to use fractional progression, and you could use something similar for bonus feat progressions, sneak attack progressions, etc. However, I can also argue that a Ftr/PsW should get both feat progressions in full: the feats must be chosen from different lists, and can therefore be considered not identical. I would tend to lean toward full feat progressions for each class (since I can justify the feats as non-identical), but if I decided against that then I would use some kind of fractional measure for the feat progression to avoid massive metagaming of the levels. A similar reasoning should apply to levels of pp gain/pp gain . Either they are considered identical, in which case they need to overlap in some fashion, or they are considered not identical and need to be kept separate. Both methods present problems. If they overlap, a Psi 10/Ftr 10//PsW 10/Rog 10 is rewarded for arranging his Psi levels and PsW levels so they don't occur simultaneously. If they are kept separate, a Psi 10/PsW 10//Pal 20 is punished in comparison to a non-gestalt Psi 10/PsW 10. Since I don't see a good way to address the second problem, I'd probably treat them as identical. t~
LordPerrinOfNeomegaDotNet 04-22-04, 10:20 AM	I haven't read through the whole (absurdly long!) thread, so forgive me if this has been offered already... Monk/Swashbuckler - You wear no armor, and yet they will never hit you. Ever. Plus, with unarmed strike counting as a light weapon (IIRC - I've never played a character that used it, so I could very well be wrong about that), all your bonuses/abilities are compatible.
Nifft 04-22-04, 12:17 PM	Originally posted by tiornys However, I can also argue that a Ftr/PsW should get both feat progressions in full: the feats must be chosen from different lists, and can therefore be considered not identical. I would tend to lean toward full feat progressions for each class (since I can justify the feats as non-identical), but if I decided against that then I would use some kind of fractional measure for the feat progression to avoid massive metagaming of the levels. And I could argue back that skill points accrue at each level from different lists, but you don't get two separate pools of skill points -- you get the maximum skill points of both classes, from a pooled list. A Ftr20/PsiWar 20 would get full BAB, a better skill list, 3 extra Bonus Feats (at levels 5, 11 and 17), a better list of Feats at most levels, and a huge list of Powers that he could use while wearing armor. Not quite as good as a Fighter/Cleric, but then, the Fighter and PsiWar have more in common, and Clerics are allegedly overpowered anyway. As to psionic classes multi-classing, the XPH has rules for that already: manifester level does NOT stack, but power points DO pool. You only get bonus Power Points from one manifester class (the one with the highest level). Since manifester level does not stack, I think it's fair to grant power progression from all classes. I don't think it's sane to grant double power points, since they do pool. This means that Wilder/Psion is less attractive than Psion/Wizard, but that's not a big deal IMHO -- not every class pairing deserves equal consideration. Some are cool, some are sucktastic. -- N
philopharynx 04-23-04, 12:36 PM	As for the bonus feats, I would say that they overlap because the Psychic Warrior list includes the fighter list. However, I wouldn't say they are the same progression like the rogue and assassin would be with the sneak attacks. (i.e. if you take rogue and assassin levels offset, you still don't get sneak attack dice every level) Here's the progression I'd use Lvl 1 1 bonus feat ftr/psionic 2 1 bonus feat ftr/psionic 3 none 4 1 bonus feat ftr 5 1 bonus feat ftr/psionic 6 1 bonus feat ftr 7 none 8 1 bonus feat ftr/psionic etc...
DarkThoughts24 04-24-04, 12:48 PM	it doesnt overlap because they will be two different feats. and again the fact the pool combines is a clas feature the two psionic classes. but the pools still do combine not overlap! and again even with the fractional base variant the elnd result is still 10.5 not +20
NineInchNall 04-25-04, 11:39 PM	I don't know if this has already been posted, and I'm too lazy to check, but here is the sickest thing one of my players suggested: leShay 50/Hexblade 4/Paladin-variant 46 I think level 4 is where the Hexblade gets Mettle, but I'm not sure since I don't have the book for it. Silly saves, silly damage, silly abilities, and all of them are based on Charisma. *shudder*:uh-huh:
Ryan_Singer 04-26-04, 05:34 AM	I'm not sure if this has been said, but: Cleric20/PsyWarrior 20. Both get WIS as casting stat, both care about same ability scores (except CHA) and you can still hold up in melee. Also, Soulknife20/ Psywarrior 20 The Altimate PSyWarrior, with the perfect psyweapon. and finally: Soulkinfe20/fighter20 or Barbarian20 I hit things. With my mind!!!
Nifft 04-26-04, 06:11 AM	Swashbuckler / Egoist would be killer. Int-based power all around, with multiple ways to lay down pain, and a bunch of armor & shield substitute powers. Druid / PsiWar -- you think those claws were deadly, here's what I look like as a DIRE BEAR! Man, so many cool claw powers. Such a tight fit! -- N
SMW 04-27-04, 02:48 AM	I am in a Gestalt campaign that started the day after UA hit the shelves, and the current character I use is a Fighter6/Paladin10/Anointed Knight 7 of Helm. I liked the combination because it gave me the right feats (and number of feats) to get cavalry charger and some 'flare' feats like Celestial Mount. Then of course, there is my Elminster remake for Gestalt Forgotten Realms: Fighter 6/Rogue 6/Cleric 14/Wizard 24/Archmage 5/Hierophant 5/Dweomerkeeper 10
UberJoker 04-27-04, 01:09 PM	i only read the first 3 pages before this post so i dont know if its true or not but i didnt see a SINGLE Wizard 20/Psion 20. They both use INT as the main stat... so my bet would be a Wizard 20/Psion 20 also i had this idea could you combine your familiar and psicrystal? into a psi-familiar? your familiar would be shaped like normal but made of crystal. but have the stats of both combined. thoughts plz
Riznar 04-27-04, 02:19 PM	Originally posted by SMW I am in a Gestalt campaign that started the day after UA hit the shelves, and the current character I use is a Fighter6/Paladin10/Anointed Knight 7 of Helm. I liked the combination because it gave me the right feats (and number of feats) to get cavalry charger and some 'flare' feats like Celestial Mount. Then of course, there is my Elminster remake for Gestalt Forgotten Realms: Fighter 6/Rogue 6/Cleric 14/Wizard 24/Archmage 5/Hierophant 5/Dweomerkeeper 10 Something is wrong here, you've got 23 levels, do you have a level adjustment?
SMW 04-27-04, 02:48 PM	That should read Anointed Knight 6
Legdiwena 04-30-04, 02:28 PM	monk of lathander/cleric of lathander/divine champion/divine arcanist/heirophant/sorc/wiz/dragon disciple all with vow of poverty and might add some paladin into mix
Nifft 05-01-04, 11:30 AM	Originally posted by UberJoker i only read the first 3 pages before this post so i dont know if its true or not but i didnt see a SINGLE Wizard 20/Psion 20. They both use INT as the main stat... Remember that UA came out a month or two before the XPH... so back when those three pages were written, Psions didn't just use Int. Scroll back a page or two and you'll see my list of powerful XPH Gestalts. also i had this idea could you combine your familiar and psicrystal? into a psi-familiar? your familiar would be shaped like normal but made of crystal. but have the stats of both combined. Go read the first PrC written in the "New XPH PrCs" sticky thread at the top. You're welcome. :) -- N
fruits and vegetables 05-03-04, 01:42 AM	has anyone mentioned cleric/psychic warior? 2 things.... - rigteous might - form of doom = form of righteous doom. ...it all stacks.
mcannon1973 08-15-05, 03:21 AM	dwarf alternating between ftr/rgr, ftr/rog, rgr/rog until he picks up dwarven defender. with v3.5 rules, non-spellcasting rgr(strong-arm fighting-style),trading rog :cool: sneak attacks for feats as a ftr, and shied-bearer variant ftr the PrC is an ideal , smart, and craftsmenlike dwarf warrior
Digitaldude745 08-15-05, 07:22 PM	I think Ranger/Arcane Archer would be sweet. Especially if the ranger's combat style was archery.
Spus Widgetwatcher 08-15-05, 11:50 PM	A Combo I wouldn't mind trying: Monk20/Drunken Master10/Fighter10 Full Monky Goodness, The Fun of drunken master, and the 10 fighter levels give you enough BAB for a 4th hit, and 6 feats. 2d10+1d12 x 4 would be quite nice- potentially 128 damage before applying other factors such as STR, Crits, etc. Insane AC from Full Monk and the Drunken Master's +2. And I just really want to play a Drunken Master, but I can't find a game that'll allow me heh. Another Idea: Warmage/Cleric The Good Old Fashioned Red Mage. Cleric gives you the utility and healing, the Warmage lets you blow things up ruthlessly.
JackAltrades 08-22-05, 02:08 PM	Blend Mystic Theurge and Cerebromancer into a gestalt PrC: With this Idea you have a higher requirement to get in to the PrC, but it takes "both Slots", and adds to 3 spell casting classes instead of two. I am not seeing any thing unbalancing with this as a gestalt only PrC, for an all round spellcaster with access to Arcane, Divine, And Psionic magic. We also play with psionics as another type of magic, not the psionics are different rules. Any thoughts?
Atanatotatos 09-07-05, 07:08 AM	I hope nobody has already posted about the idea already... What about mighty rage while in dire bear form, buffing and calling forth hordes of natural allies with extend spell and augment summon...? I mean, druid/barbarian?
Morka 09-07-05, 11:45 AM	The CW Ninja doesn't have Sneack Attack, instead he has Sudden Strike, so it should stack with the rogue's Sneack Attack ability, but it only works when the target is denied his dexterity... A druid/rogue, wildshaped into a feline. On the surprise round, use a pounce for 5 attacks with sneack attack dices on each one... An interresting build could be a Paladin/Wilder. Full BAB, 2 good saves (could take a few ranger levels for a good ref save); he can wear a full plate and adds his CHA bonus to touch AC. On round one, take a Wild Surge to manifest a power to buff himself, then use melee attacks while on the Surging Euphoria.
Aenanlron 09-07-05, 03:47 PM	I made a build it would be Druid 15/Wizard 15/Elemental Savant 10/Geomancer 10. can buff only wis or only int for all lvles then with the geomancer can use that stat as primary for csating either type of spell, only downside is not as many bonus spells per day
smitipogra 09-07-05, 05:13 PM	I have a couple of combos. First is a wizard/cleric heading toward True Necromancer (Libris Mortis) and taking the appropriate levels of cleric or wizard to not "lose" a casting level and taking cleric on free levels for rebuking undead. (If you read, True Necro levels stack with your cleric levels for rebuking undead! If you go up as both, then it can effectively double your rebuking, well not quite double, but geez!) Another combo is Samurai (from oriental adventures, not complete warrior)/ Ninja (from Complete Adventurer.) and then taking the Iaijutsu Master prestige class in Oriental Adventures. This basically allows you to do extra damage from suddenstrike whenever you Iaijutsu an opponent's butt, that's not to mention the ability to go invisible/ethereal to catch your opponent flat-footed. And my last one is a Roge/Ninja. Why? Well it's simple. Your sneak attack and sudden strike would stack (Note: you could only use the sudden strike damage whenever your opponent would be denied his dex bonus.) This is in addition to the invisible/ethereal to get both damages more often and, on top of that, a higher armor class! What's bad about this combo (other than only a d6 hit die)?
Judging Eagle 09-07-05, 07:55 PM	How about.... A Warlock 18/ Marshall 2 on one side -get all but 1D6 of eldrich blast -with motivate charisma all cha bonuses are doubled (for UMD checks, which also applies to crafting items that the warlock doesn't know the spell to) so, your "non-caster" can just make themself a staff (craft staff) that allows them to cast utility spells (rely on EB for most damage), some random scrolls (scribe scroll) to cast specific spells (break enchantment, heal, greater restoration etc.) and probably craft wonderous item to make random 'helpful' items (like cloaks of charisma, boots of haste and a belt of expeditious assault/retreat (for +60 movement and an extra dodge ac and extra attack) or just make that belt of magnificence that adds the same bonus to all stats and wear a cloak of resitance (out of the minis hand book). And a Scout 3/fighter 2/monk 2/ ranger 6/ X on the other (this side's less well developed, I was thinking a dervish with scout for more D6's since you have to move to dervish dance and scout's D6's only trigger if you've moved). With maybe dervish and more scout lvls added in, adding more lvl's of marshall on the non-warlock side would be handy to get other minor auras (such as motivate dexterity to add +Cha to all dex checks, dex-based skill checks and initiative checks; yes, that could be around +5 dex and +6 cha for +11 on init checks, and that's before improved initative) Almost all feats per 3 levels are going to be craft feats, with a combination of high UMD, take 10 on UMD checks from warlock, a bunch of +Charisma gear and the marshall's motivate charisma should allow a warlock gestalt to get about 30-ish on UMD checks (taking 10) so they can make even divine based items.
Worguron 09-07-05, 11:13 PM	I made a build it would be Druid 15/Wizard 15/Elemental Savant 10/Geomancer 10. can buff only wis or only int for all lvles then with the geomancer can use that stat as primary for csating either type of spell, only downside is not as many bonus spells per day You can only have a max of 15 levels worth of Prestige Classes since you can't take two of them at the same time. You can also have a total of only 40 levels between the two sides of the gestalt, not 50 as you show. Interesting idea though, I think I would take Wizard 5/Geomancer10/Geometer or some other full casting PrC 5 on one side and Druid 20 on the other side. That way you would have full Druid benifits and wildshape, along with full wizard casting. All of this could also be done with only one high stat.
psetzer 09-08-05, 01:28 AM	Fighter 20-Monk 20 - You get full BAB, 114.5 HP on average, all Saves, loads of feats, and monk abilities. Fighter 10-Duelist 10-Wizard 20 - Full BAB, 104.5 HP on average, good saves (+9,+9,+12), Int bonus to AC, Full spellcaster progression. Barbarian 20-Sorcerer 4-?? 16 - Truestrike+Power Attack 6x per day, full BAB, 135.5 HP on average, and full Barbarian Abilities, only needs Cha 12.
Morka 09-08-05, 11:49 AM	Ranger 20/Monk 20: Full BAB for a monk, more skill points, eventually WIS based spells. Get the 2-weapon fighting style, since it stacks with flurry of blows. You also get an animal companion...
codexia 09-08-05, 08:55 PM	Probobly not the "best" or most optimal, but I happen to like Hexblade10/Warlock20/Dragon Disciple 10. It worked really well when I tried it out in a test game, and this will probobly end up as my BBEG in my next campaign :P it's a heck of a lot of fun to play around with.
Schmendrick 09-13-05, 05:45 AM	I'm surprised nobody has pointed this one out yet: One line consists of Monk and Fist of Zuoken The other line of Ranger, Rogue, and, after the first Fist level, Elocator. Stagger Monk/Elocator with Fist/Ranger and/or Fist/Rogue. Good saves, decent BAB, monk abilities, sneak attack, a few divine spells, PsiWar manifesting... lots of abilities focused on one stat (Wis). And low treasure dependency (so VoP is an attractive option). Oh, and, of course, all kinds of mobility. My build is off in some lost notebook, and I lost my XPH (it's buried somewhere around here) so I can't rebuild it quite right, but IIRC things get pretty darn nasty rather around mid level. (I'll repost the specific build when/if I can, unless someone here wants to crank it out. ;) )