Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Yabanjin 01-02-06, 09:10 AM	This is a work in progress. I think the base movement system is weird. E.g. The idea that ALL humans (all dwarves, all elves etc...) move as fast as each other under all conditions is simply too simple. What I'm thinking is something like this: Base as per race and class. BASE +/- 5'/Dex Mod. & +/- 5'/Str Mod. & - 5'/AC Check Penalty (and other mods not yet named). What do you think?
Sigurd van Norhusen 01-02-06, 09:54 AM	I thought it might work well with reducing the movement rate by 10 and adding DEX instead. But your idea works just as well.
Xeviat-DM 01-02-06, 10:09 AM	I think tieing it primarily to Dex is better than incorperating strength. Added strength often adds size and muscle mass, which weighs one down. I'm 200 pounds, mostly muscle, and while I am pretty fast (I think I have a 40 ft. movement rate since I can walk a mile in 15 minutes and 4 in an hour), I know many more agile people who are faster than me (maybe they took the run feat?). Strength will indirectly affect speed, because it affects carrying capacity. A stronger person can move faster when carrying heavy loads than a weaker person. What I'm saying is that I advocate reducing the current speeds by 10' and adding +/-5' per Dex modifier/penalty. This would need to be adjusted for size, to an extent; otherwise a goblin is faster than a human, and halflings are almost as fast (though that works). To play devil's advocate, a race in D&D is also a function of Initiative: if all the runners have the run feat and the same base speed (and none are carrying an anvil on their back), then the winner of a sprint is determined by initiative checks. But the proposed idea above (20 + 5/dex mod) gets you a moderately reasonable range (15 to 40 for standard PCs; you're looking at 25 or 30 on average, though). You may want to adjust armor, though (such as speed is determined by your dex or max dex, then modified for the armor's weight class).
PerennialRook 01-02-06, 01:43 PM	I like the idea of varied speed. Perhaps Racial Speed - 10' + (Dex)' is the most practical system wise. Though for combat you would have to round down to the nearest 5' increment. An 18 Dex human would move 35' as a single move action, 75' as a double move, or 190' sprinting (with the run feat). As compared to a normal 10 Dex human wo moves 30', 60', and 150' respectively. A 25 Dex elven 20th level monk with the run feat can sprint 525' in just 6 seconds (that's about 60 mph). The only losers are the races with a penalty to Dex.
PerennialRook 01-02-06, 01:51 PM	In a race you could rule that the difference in the initiative rolls of both characters is added to the distance the person who won initiative. Thus a Dex 12 (A) and Dex 10 (B) character racing where A rolls an 8 for initiative and B rolls a natural 20, a 12' headstart for B. After the first round A has travelled 48' and B has gone 52', though after the second round character A has travelled 96' and B only 92'.
Gilean 01-02-06, 02:00 PM	Take the sum of dex and str modifiers. If this is more than 5, to either direction, modify speed by 5. If it is more than 10, modiy speed by 10'. Keeps it more balanced while still giving benefit to those that really deserve it.
april151978 01-02-06, 02:02 PM	Combat and Tactics did this for 2nd edition by adding both your dex and strengh bonus (or penalty) to your base move... Can't remember if this was an adjustment across the board for all races and creatures, but would be a change that might work... I have toyed with the idea, but was wondering if anyone has done this and what the resuilts were... Any thoughts/comments?...
PerennialRook 01-02-06, 02:24 PM	Oh, I forgot about CC and Armor. I would say that you subtract your check penalty from CC and armor from your speed and that armor limits your Dex to the highest a score could be before loosing Dex from the armors max dex bonus. Thus full plate limits limits you to a Dex of 13 and subtracts 6' from your speed off the top, pinging you on both ends.
Rolof 01-02-06, 03:41 PM	There's many ways to deal with speed, in my opinion WOTC just took the easy way out in an attempt to make it less of a bother. Depending on your style of play, and realism that you desire, this is either a good thing or a bad thing. If you want some slight deviation so every character is just a little slower or faster than others, you could allow people to add their con or dex mods to speed. (Depending on whether it was a sprint or marathon.) If that still produces a tie, there is already a rule somewhere that says when one character chases another, the one with higher dex is a little faster. Just from memory, I think GURPS deals with speed in this manner, which is probably more realistic but of course adds complexity: Con + Dex = X X divided by 4 = running speed (in yards) So on average, 10 + 10 = 20, divided by 4 will be 5 yards, which is 15 ft. This might sound slow, but GURPS rounds are only 1 second instead of 6, so it's equivalent to a move rate of 80 (15 X 6). Also, GURPS has a "sprint" rule, which allows you to add 1 to running speed for short distances, in this example 5 + 1 = 6 yds (18 ft), X 6 for D&D equivalent, = 108 ft per round. Which is really not much different than the D&D average of 30 ft X 4 when running = 120 ft. Just a more complicated way of doing it.
Ranger REG 01-02-06, 05:44 PM	This is a work in progress. I think the base movement system is weird. E.g. The idea that ALL humans (all dwarves, all elves etc...) move as fast as each other under all conditions is simply too simple. What I'm thinking is something like this: Base as per race and class. BASE +/- 5'/Dex Mod. & +/- 5'/Str Mod. & - 5'/AC Check Penalty (and other mods not yet named). What do you think? I like the fact that you're using Strength instead of Dexterity. I would go so far to create a feat that allow a PC to use Dex instead of Str to the above formula. I'd replace the "-5 feet/ACP" with a different armor penalty.
Nyaricus 01-02-06, 09:03 PM	what i do IMG's is add the characters Str and Dex scores together. This represents the major (strong) and minor (dextrous) muscles working together to create movement. Round up or down to the closest 5'. Dwarves and small PC races get -25% movement. This is applied before rounding. Medium and Heavy Armours take 10' of movement. This is appiled after rounding. --- Joe the Farmer (commoner 1) has 10 Str and 10 Dex. His base speed is 20. EX: Steve the Wizard (human) has 10 Str and 14 Dex. Str was a dump stat since he spent most of his time in academic/wizardly studies. Base speed is 10+14=24 rounded up for 25. No armour (that would be foolish) and no size penalties. He is slower than the average adventurer. EX: Dalin the Daring, Dwarven Fighter 1 has 18 Str and 13 Dex and is wearing scalemail. 18+13 = 31, 31 - 25% = 23.25, rounded up to 25'. Normally a characters speed would drop to 15 (25 -10 for medium armour) but in this case since he is a dwarf it doesn't drop, so the final base speed is 25'. --- So, fighter types, due to years of training, etc, move quicker than the commoner who is, well, common, or the mage who focused on things other than athletics. --- Thus, this system makes charatcers speed a little more realistic than the standard "you guys move 30 feet, you others move 20 feet, and as for you dwarves . . ."
Yabanjin 01-02-06, 11:21 PM	Hey All, Thanks for the thoughtful responses! Lots of good ideas so far. This whole idea stems from my days as a sprinter. In JV (thats the team for underclassmen) I was able to run 100 yards (1 yard = 3 feet) in 11.6 seconds (my best time) and 200 yards in 24 seconds. My 50 yard split time was 4.6 seconds. That means I was able to run very fast under racing conditions (not directly applicable to the game, but it helps my point) at about 150 feet in about 5 seconds. One of my rather bulky football (gridiron) friends could do the 100 in about 15 seconds. In sprint terms - that's a lifetime. I don't know his split time, it was probably something like 7 seconds. Bit slow, but he was a big guy. The point: If you put both me and my old friend in a chain mail (different suits of course :D), back then I was a scrawny kid, he would've been able to manage much better than me, I might've won a race, but I sincerely doubt it. Furthermore, If we were wearing plate, he would've still be able to run, whereas I'm sure I would've been greatly slowed - perhaps to the point of jogging and he would've certainly beaten me. Add equipment to that and I would've been hustling only. In both cases my low strength would have seriously handicapped me in both races whereas he would not have noticed nearly as much. His speed might not have been reduced much at all. His strength would have greatly aided his movement - but only when encumbered. This is really meant as an explanation of my formula. Thanks again for the all contributions.
Ranger REG 01-04-06, 02:22 AM	what i do IMG's is add the characters Str and Dex scores together. This represents the major (strong) and minor (dextrous) muscles working together to create movement. Round up or down to the closest 5'. Why? Dexterity already covers the "runner takes off from the starting line" in the form of initiative check.
starfire311 01-04-06, 02:00 PM	Hey All, Thanks for the thoughtful responses! Lots of good ideas so far. This whole idea stems from my days as a sprinter. In JV (thats the team for underclassmen) I was able to run 100 yards (1 yard = 3 feet) in 11.6 seconds (my best time) and 200 yards in 24 seconds. My 50 yard split time was 4.6 seconds. That means I was able to run very fast under racing conditions (not directly applicable to the game, but it helps my point) at about 150 feet in about 5 seconds. One of my rather bulky football (gridiron) friends could do the 100 in about 15 seconds. In sprint terms - that's a lifetime. I don't know his split time, it was probably something like 7 seconds. Bit slow, but he was a big guy. The point: If you put both me and my old friend in a chain mail (different suits of course :D), back then I was a scrawny kid, he would've been able to manage much better than me, I might've won a race, but I sincerely doubt it. Furthermore, If we were wearing plate, he would've still be able to run, whereas I'm sure I would've been greatly slowed - perhaps to the point of jogging and he would've certainly beaten me. Add equipment to that and I would've been hustling only. In both cases my low strength would have seriously handicapped me in both races whereas he would not have noticed nearly as much. His speed might not have been reduced much at all. His strength would have greatly aided his movement - but only when encumbered. This is really meant as an explanation of my formula. Thanks again for the all contributions. I am really confusd about yuor whole premise... you say that you ran faster in HS than someone that was bigger than you... in D&D terms you equate this to people with Higher Dex run faster? You stat that you ran aprox 150 feat in 5 seconds that isnt bad at all... that is about 30 ft per second or 180 ft per D&D round if you had the run feat this would equal a speed of 36ft so you had the run feat and the dash feat. When I was in High school my senior year was a running back and Middle LB for my team. I am using my Senior times only because that is what I remember, and my college times wouldn't be a fair comparison. I ran the 100m or 110 yards(330ft) in 11.5 seconds and I weighed 190lbs and could bench press almost 400lbs. I was a big guy, and I could still run fast. I like the current system of using feats/class abilities to represent increase in speed.
Yabanjin 01-04-06, 09:31 PM	You stat that you ran aprox 150 feat in 5 seconds that isnt bad at all... that is about 30 ft per second or 180 ft per D&D round if you had the run feat this would equal a speed of 36ft so you had the run feat and the dash feat. These are excellent points. When I was in High school my senior year was a running back and Middle LB for my team. I am using my Senior times only because that is what I remember, and my college times wouldn't be a fair comparison. I ran the 100m or 110 yards(330ft) in 11.5 seconds and I weighed 190lbs and could bench press almost 400lbs. I was a big guy, and I could still run fast. Of course, I wrote yards instead of meters my mistake. It should've been meters without a doubt. Part of the premise is that if we (at that time) were both ladened with equipment, you would've been able to beat me - due to your strength not due to your speed alone. But you're right, I've always tied speed/movement to Dex. - which of course it doesn't have to be - and according to the PHB - it isn't. My main point is that everyone having the same movement (by race and class) is a bit off... . I like the current system of using feats/class abilities to represent increase in speed.Without spending precious feats, do you have any suggestions for how to incorporate a slight variation for individuals? Thanks for the input!
Yabanjin 01-04-06, 10:03 PM	I was just thinking (this needs work of course), how about something like spending a point (from the standard point buy) to increase speed +5' ? This could rapidly become rather expensive to bump it up too much. Perhaps putting the maximum at +10' or +15' ... . What do you think?
starfire311 01-05-06, 10:00 AM	I was just thinking (this needs work of course), how about something like spending a point (from the standard point buy) to increase speed +5' ? This could rapidly become rather expensive to bump it up too much. Perhaps putting the maximum at +10' or +15' ... . What do you think? Interesting idea, there are other games, Rifts comes to mind, that have speed as one of the characters stats, in addition and independant of Strength and dexterity. Perhaps have speed be just another stat, just have the base speed = 20+ your speed stat.
Yabanjin 01-05-06, 11:23 AM	Interesting idea, there are other games, Rifts comes to mind, that have speed as one of the characters stats, in addition and independant of Strength and dexterity. Perhaps have speed be just another stat, just have the base speed = 20+ your speed stat. That might just be the reason I find this to be an issue. [played quite a bit of Rifts - sshh ;) ]
RaspK FOG 01-05-06, 01:56 PM	Base as per race and class. BASE +/- 5'/Dex Mod. & +/- 5'/Str Mod. & - 5'/AC Check Penalty (and other mods not yet named). What do you think? I assume you meant to write something like this: "Base as per race. Base + 5 feet × Dex Modifier + 5 feet × Str Modifier + 5 feet * Armour Check Penalty." Is this correct?
Yabanjin 01-05-06, 09:30 PM	I assume you meant to write something like this: "Base as per race. Base + 5 feet × Dex Modifier + 5 feet × Str Modifier + 5 feet * Armour Check Penalty." Is this correct? Yeah. '/' was meant to be = to 'per' not 'divided by.' Wasn't very clear, was it? For further clarity, I was never really happy with the formula. It was just the first thought. What did you have in mind?
Sae Cael Oanar 01-05-06, 11:12 PM	strength may effect who runs faster, but dex equates who can get away better. for instance. i can run faster than a squirrel. in a straight tunnel, im gonna catch it. bring that to an open field (no trees, or anything they can use, just an open field) it will dodge me like nobodies business. it wont be easy to get that sucker at all. hard to put in dnd terms though. maybe speed and mobility. speed being effected by strength, mobility by dex. you would have your speed, how fast you go, and your mobility, how many times you can turn or something.
Ranger REG 01-06-06, 04:07 AM	As I said, Dexterity determines whether or not you take off from the starting line before everybody else. Strength gives you speed to cover the distance. And if we're talking about marathon, Constitution determines whether you can keep up the pace.
FriendlyBiscuit 01-06-06, 05:23 AM	for instance. i can run faster than a squirrel. in a straight tunnel, im gonna catch it. I object. I tried to catch squirrels in my high school days, and I was another one of those speedy, high-dex track sprinters we're discussing. (I was a fair hand with fencing foils and rapiers, too.) If the tunnel is big enough that you fit in it, you're still gonna have one hell of a time catching that squirrel. You basically need the squirrel to be in a bucket or cage or something. They can backflip, change direction instantly, and even sorta run on the walls. This is all without spending a feat, I think. Unless those squirrels had monk levels. Holy crap, Batman, that explains everything!hard to put in dnd terms though.A squirrel's what, diminutive? Not to mention it probably has a rather high dex? Most commoners and low-level experts will not catch the squirrel. Grapple check, replete with AoO, against [what should be] a fairly high AC... that fool's gonna take a few scratches to the face. (which cause grapple checks to fail, just like real-life face scratches and bitten fingers.)
RaspK FOG 01-06-06, 08:02 AM	Yeah. '/' was meant to be = to 'per' not 'divided by.' Wasn't very clear, was it? For further clarity, I was never really happy with the formula. It was just the first thought. What did you have in mind? It's all right... My thoughts on this is that the d20 System fails to relate to such a rule, especially since there are spells, feats and class features that enhance your speed; in my homebrewed d6 system, where there are 10 ability scores, I use Agility as a factor that plays in one's Speed but, as I mentioned in another thread, the d20 System uses only 6 ability scores. ;) All in all, I would probably allow a playrer a skill check, if there was one, to run faster. Still, this is not the case.
Yabanjin 01-06-06, 09:07 AM	... I was another one of those speedy, high-dex track sprinters we're discussing.But within this quote lies the oft-felt fallacy - that Dex effects speed. SRD (from a linked online version) (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/basics.html) DEXTERITY (DEX) Dexterity measures hand-eye coordination, agility, reflexes, and balance. This ability is the most important one for rogues, but it’s also high on the list for characters who typically wear light or medium armor (rangers and barbarians) or no armor at all (monks, wizards, and sorcerers), and for anyone who wants to be a skilled archer. You apply your character’s Dexterity modifier to: Ranged attack rolls, including those for attacks made with bows, crossbows, throwing axes, and other ranged weapons. Armor Class (AC), provided that the character can react to the attack. Reflex saving throws, for avoiding fireballs and other attacks that you can escape by moving quickly. Balance, Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Ride, Sleight of Hand, Tumble, and Use Rope checks. These are the skills that have Dexterity as their key ability.[My highlight] I just can's seem to shake feeling that there's a stronger connection to movement that isn't really meant to be there. :tantrum:AAAARRRGGGHHHH!!!!! My revamped goal for this harebrained idea is using the Point Buy System (as mentioned before) or by possibly stripping points from already 'bought' attributes (esp. the Str score)... . If anyone has any ideas for something like this, I'll be happy to continue the discussion. Otherwise: Thanks for all of posts! :w00t: This has been very helpful.
Ruhl-Than Sage 01-06-06, 03:45 PM	I object. I tried to catch squirrels in my high school days, and I was another one of those speedy, high-dex track sprinters we're discussing. (I was a fair hand with fencing foils and rapiers, too.) If the tunnel is big enough that you fit in it, you're still gonna have one hell of a time catching that squirrel. You basically need the squirrel to be in a bucket or cage or something. They can backflip, change direction instantly, and even sorta run on the walls. This is all without spending a feat, I think. Unless those squirrels had monk levels. Holy crap, Batman, that explains everything!A squirrel's what, diminutive? Not to mention it probably has a rather high dex? Most commoners and low-level experts will not catch the squirrel. Grapple check, replete with AoO, against [what should be] a fairly high AC... that fool's gonna take a few scratches to the face. (which cause grapple checks to fail, just like real-life face scratches and bitten fingers.) This sort of shows you how poorly the abilities of animals are represented in the MM. The official rules just don't allow animals to gain all the abilities they have in real life and the movement rates and stats are often times extremely inaccurate.
Sae Cael Oanar 01-06-06, 07:39 PM	right, ill note that i actually did the whole squirrel in a tunnel bit, it wasnt hypothetical. i was at the tunnel going from giants stadium to continental airlines arena or whatever. i caught that squirrel, and i dont believe he was any less of a squirrel than any other squiirel.
Pz.Az.04Maus 01-06-06, 08:58 PM	What I'm thinking is something like this: Base as per race and class. BASE +/- 5'/Dex Mod. & +/- 5'/Str Mod. & - 5'/AC Check Penalty (and other mods not yet named). What do you think? So it's the base speed plus or minus 5 Divided by your dex mod, plus or minus 5 divided by your Str. Mod, minus 5 divided by your AC check penalty? I don't get it!? Or is it Base [-|+] 5 or Dex Mod, whichever is higher, [-|+] 5 or Str. Mod, [-|+] 5 or your AC check penalty, whichever's higher? This still doesn't make sense!? and [-|+] equals Plus or minus, just to let you know.
Yabanjin 01-06-06, 10:15 PM	So it's the base speed plus or minus 5 Divided by your dex mod, plus or minus 5 divided by your Str. Mod, minus 5 divided by your AC check penalty? I don't get it!? Or is it Base [-|+] 5 or Dex Mod, whichever is higher, [-|+] 5 or Str. Mod, [-|+] 5 or your AC check penalty, whichever's higher? This still doesn't make sense!? and [-|+] equals Plus or minus, just to let you know. Fair point. Please allow me to restate my original idea. Base Movement (as usual) is given by race and class. The BASE is then modified by +5' per positive Dex Mod point or -5' per negative Dex Mod point. Then apply the same formula for Str. Then, to account for armour, subtract 5' per AC Check Penalty point . Undoubtedly, after further thought there will be other, as yet unnamed, modifiers to be used in the formula. and [-|+] equals Plus or minus, just to let you know. Yes, I know. However, I figured (wrongly I suppose) that readers interested in this idea would quickly catch on. Many seemed to. But it was certainly unclear. Sorry about that. If you get the chance, read the posts following the first one and add something to the thread. More input is always welcome. This particular line of thinking, which got the ball rolling for me, was abandoned.
Sae Cael Oanar 01-06-06, 11:24 PM	i do like that using your system both elves and half orcs get +5 speed, and for different, justified reasons. theres a couple things i dislike 20th level character 32 strength 26 dex equates to 115 speed. previous to this rule, youd have to near optimize to get that kind of speed.
Ruhl-Than Sage 01-06-06, 11:40 PM	right, ill note that i actually did the whole squirrel in a tunnel bit, it wasnt hypothetical. i was at the tunnel going from giants stadium to continental airlines arena or whatever. i caught that squirrel, and i dont believe he was any less of a squirrel than any other squiirel. :heehee good one! ;) ;)
Yabanjin 01-07-06, 12:52 AM	i do like that using your system both elves and half orcs get +5 speed, and for different, justified reasons. theres a couple things i dislike 20th level character 32 strength 26 dex equates to 115 speed. previous to this rule, youd have to near optimize to get that kind of speed.Right there with ya. Dizzying speeds - Somehow appropriate for such high level characters and yet somehow tremendously ridiculous at the same time! [I'm imaging the feat string to spring attack... many times many slain kobolds... :D .] Unfortunately, this is a bit beyond what I had in mind.
Pz.Az.04Maus 01-07-06, 10:19 AM	You could always divide the Modifiers by 2 to lower them a by half. Rounding down can be the lesser of 2 evils for the DM. Also, shouldn't people with epic sized abilities be able to run fast? Not 115 feet/6 seconds, but something like 60 feet/6 seconds[1 round]. I don't know about this, but I think it would be safe to have even epic characters have a little higher bonuses to account for epicness... Also, 5 per AC Check penalty would equate a full plate with -30 feet of movement. That just takes the cake in being unreally crazy. -10 x 5 ft = -50 feet for a towershield!? What the heck? These rules need a bit of a clarification to help out a little. You could just make the rule that the encumberance of armor, which already limits the max dex bonus, limits the extra speed given by the Max dex bonus, and you then subtract the AC check penalty, which is rounded to the nearest 0, 5, or 10 feet of movement, and add that on to it. Encumberance is also another factor that slows people down, if noone realized. Could the guy who caught the squirrel in a tunnel have caught it if he had heavy encumberance?
Pz.Az.04Maus 01-07-06, 10:21 AM	But within this quote lies the oft-felt fallacy - that Dex effects speed. [My highlight] I just can's seem to shake feeling that there's a stronger connection to movement that isn't really meant to be there. :tantrum:AAAARRRGGGHHHH!!!!! My revamped goal for this harebrained idea is using the Point Buy System (as mentioned before) or by possibly stripping points from already 'bought' attributes (esp. the Str score)... . If anyone has any ideas for something like this, I'll be happy to continue the discussion. Otherwise: Thanks for all of posts! :w00t: This has been very helpful. Just to let you know, I have that exact same DAMN Feeling too. Gah...
Yabanjin 01-07-06, 11:20 AM	You could always divide the Modifiers by 2 to lower them a by half. Rounding down can be the lesser of 2 evils for the DM. Funny you should mention this, a buddy of mine just said pretty much the same thing. Also, shouldn't people with epic sized abilities be able to run fast? Not 115 feet/6 seconds, but something like 60 feet/6 seconds[1 round]. I don't know about this, but I think it would be safe to have even epic characters have a little higher bonuses to account for epicness... That's the thing about epic... . I have no frame of reference... (LoTR movie Legolas? That silly oliphant attack... epic?).Also, 5 per AC Check penalty would equate a full plate with -30 feet of movement. That just takes the cake in being unreally crazy. -10 x 5 ft = -50 feet for a towershield!? What the heck? These rules need a bit of a clarification to help out a little. You could just make the rule that the encumberance of armor, which already limits the max dex bonus, limits the extra speed given by the Max dex bonus, and you then subtract the AC check penalty, which is rounded to the nearest 0, 5, or 10 feet of movement, and add that on to it. Way too true. Definitely good points. More reasons why I've come to not like my OP. :D Encumberance is also another factor that slows people down, if noone realized. Definitely a good point. That was to be the 'other unnamed factors.' This seems to be one of those ideas that was better left alone... . (still bothers me though) Could the guy who caught the squirrel in a tunnel have caught it if he had heavy encumberance? Exactly! I guess feats are the way to go... . Seems quite expensive though. Just to let you know, I have that exact same DAMN Feeling too. Gah...It's funny, there are several gaps in the game that don't bother me, but this one drives me nuts! Thanks for the input. :clap:
Leukrythus 01-07-06, 12:17 PM	I think the base movement system is weird. E.g. The idea that ALL humans (all dwarves, all elves etc...) move as fast as each other under all conditions is simply too simple. Yeah, this rule was made with the battle grid in mind. We use Move = 30 + [Strength-10], so a character with a Str=15 would move at 35. Characters can sprint for short distances up to 3x normal move.
Esponer 01-07-06, 12:25 PM	Resultant Speed = Base Speed + 2.5*(Dexterity Modifier) - 2.5*(Armour Check Penalty - Strength Modifier) round down to the nearest 5ft increment Notes: where speed is defined, in the bizarre D&D terms, as the distance you can move with a move action. Dexterity modifier is subject to maximum dexterity bonuses, quickly frustrating those in heavy armour who aren't very strong. Strength does not independently increase your speed, but it helps you cope with armour check penalties. This system would remove speed change that types of armour have. A strong enough character (Strength 22 or higher) would be able to shrug off full-plate as if it wasn't there (note that you wouldn't be able to reduce ACP to less than 0), though even with Dexterity 20 he'd only be able to get Dexterity 12 off due to maximum dexterity bonus, which would come to base speed + 2.5, which would round down and have no influence. i.e. no matter how strong you are, in full-plate, you can't go faster than the normal without magical aid. Limit resultant speed to twice base speed for all normal quadrupeds, thrice speed for outsiders perhaps, etc. To go above this, you need enhancement bonuses. Only enhancement bonuses can let you pass twice base speed. The barbarian's increase to land speed, as not an enhancement, wouldn't let a human exceed 60ft/ma speed. Why base it only on dexterity, when leg muscles also matter? Strength more often than not doesn't refer to leg muscles. Dexterity isn't particularly accurate either, but it needs to be based on something and dexterity is the best for balance, in my opinion. Anyways, if we get too far into this, we need to start worrying about people who are overweight, and it'll get crazy. Keep it at Dex-based, it will work best. Me personally, my Strength score is perhaps 11-12, though my leg muscles are stronger, though I'm slow. My Dex is certainly low, perhaps thanks to me being a bit on the heavy side, which is why I'm slow.
Pz.Az.04Maus 01-07-06, 01:44 PM	Maybe we could make encumberance like "Armor," where it has a max dex, and everything else. For Medium Encumberance, add all the light armor max dex things, and average those out, for heavy, do the same for medium as you did light. Makes it not so hard on people, but don't add armor, as encumberance, obviously.
FriendlyBiscuit 01-08-06, 07:27 AM	Lorem ipsum dolor...yadda yadda to the hizzy... These equations are starting to look better and better. Don't forget, though, that one of the best things about dwarves is how much less they are affected by medium and heavy armors. Make sure to work a clause for them into your equations for those full-plate dwarven tumblers and leapers. ;)
Pz.Az.04Maus 01-08-06, 02:26 PM	Never mind, I found a table for Carrying Loads and their respective Max. Dex and Check Penalties stuff. Here's the data: Table: CARRYING LOADS _____Speed______ Load Max Dex Check Penalty (30 ft.) (20 ft.) Run Medium +3 –3 20 ft. 15 ft. x4 Heavy +1 –6 20 ft. 15 ft. x3
Pz.Az.04Maus 01-08-06, 02:38 PM	Funny you should mention this, a buddy of mine just said pretty much the same thing. That's the thing about epic... . I have no frame of reference... (LoTR movie Legolas? That silly oliphant attack... epic?). Way too true. Definitely good points. More reasons why I've come to not like my OP. :D Think Roland, Oliver, Beowulf, and others. Remember the Horse of Gandolf? That was supposed to be an elven Steed? It could barely keep in front of all those other horses when Gandolf was going down that hill in the second movie. It'd be safe to say that that Horse was epic, however, because of it's elven/foresty denotations. Think of also the first movie, where that Elven Woman was transporting Frodo and they were attacked by the Ringwraiths. She was barely able to as well outrun them. With a bit of urgence and sense of needing to get the job done, a person is thus spurred to go to epic heights. It would be safe to say that all of us have our "epic" moments, and thus sometimes are spurred just a bit faster than the rest of us. Thus, when I think of people with Epic Speed, I think of the Trackrunners, the olympian runners, the SeaBiscuits of us and anyone else who outran things that were fast enough and dangerous enough to run down and kill a normal human being. On a weird note, think of Forest Gump and the "Run Forest, Run!" Scene, but with the truck going to run Forest over. If he was being chased by that Truck, It would be safe to assume that he would definetly be spurred to Epic heights, just to get the hell away from that truck. That's what Epic Movement should be like to me.
Ranger REG 01-08-06, 03:55 PM	Why base it only on dexterity, when leg muscles also matter? Strength more often than not doesn't refer to leg muscles. Dexterity isn't particularly accurate either, but it needs to be based on something and dexterity is the best for balance, in my opinion. Really? So if I kick you in the buttock, I'd do less damage with my foot than with my fist, yes? Let's experiment, shall we? :devil:
Sae Cael Oanar 01-08-06, 06:09 PM	i think i heard somewhere that a martial artist does about the same damage with punches as with legs. between the legs might have a slightly different result.
PerennialRook 01-08-06, 06:49 PM	Resultant Speed = Base Speed + 2.5*(Dexterity Modifier) - 2.5*(Armour Check Penalty - Strength Modifier) round down to the nearest 5ft increment Does this mean that if I have a Strength modifier higher than my Armor Check Penalty then I subtract the negative result, thus adding the difference? Hence a character with no ACP will add 2.5*(Strength Modifier). It would make sense to change the equation to: Resultant Speed = Base Speed + 2.5*(Dexterity Modifier) + 2.5*(Strength Modifier - Armor Check Penalty) round down to the nearest 5ft increment
Pz.Az.04Maus 01-10-06, 10:57 AM	:Tiphat: Bump.
Pz.Az.04Maus 01-10-06, 11:20 AM	It would make sense to change the equation to: Resultant Speed = Base Speed + 2.5*(Dexterity Modifier) + 2.5*(Strength Modifier - Armor Check Penalty) round down to the nearest 5ft increment This is what'd I'd do to change the equation: Resultant Speed = Base Speed + [1.25*(DexMod)] - [2.5*(Armor Check Penalty- Str. Mod)]. These changes would make the impact of heavy armor hurt better than the other way, and would make Dexerity be a little less benifiting than otherwise. Dexerity also is Fleet of foot, and the ability of the foot to not trip and stumble on stuff. Speed isn't just about how much power you put into your foot, it's also where the foot goes in order to move as well. Most of that bonus is put into speed, and Str. helps it a little along. Of course, armor hurts more than heck for runners. It also makes the completely average person (Dex 10, Str 10), who wants to wear plate armor walk at a speed of 15 feet. Thus, he needs the bonuses in order to move. A guy in Full plate under these rules needs at least a Dex of +1, and a Str. of +2 in order to move effectively (At the speed at which a Medium sized Human can use Full plate under the normal Rules). This would hurt people who wear armor a little more this way (not good, but not bad either). I don't think the Max-Dex. penalty of armor should apply to this homebrewed rule, since it would mechanically hurt the living heck out of a person. And we're not talking about how easy it is to do things that require very good hand-eye coordination and flexibility of the armor; we're talking about how agile they are, and how well they plant their feet on the ground. The Armor Penalty already hurts them in Speed, so there doesn't need to be an extra rule in order to effectively react for that. Thus, it shouldn't really matter how well one can move around inside a suit of plate armor, just how well they can move Outside.
Pz.Az.04Maus 01-11-06, 01:37 AM	Stealing the thread stealing the thread stealing the thread... I'm going to try this out, see if the speed thing works or not.
Yabanjin 01-11-06, 08:48 AM	Stealing the thread stealing the thread stealing the thread... Feel free. However, I'm still getting what I'd hoped for! :dancin: You guys are doing a great job! Thanks!!! I'm going to try this out, see if the speed thing works or not.Regarding characters, it's easy to apply. Like any homebrew rule, it will only be reasonably balanced as long as the rule is evenly applied to all NPCs as well. Seems like quite a bit of extra work though. Originally, I was hoping for something with a hint of ease. Even so, it's a good formula and I'd love to hear how well it works for players - especially how both the (newly) speeded up characters and the (newly) slowed down characters felt once they've felt the effects... . If I may add something more to the mix then: How to include Constitution? Not necessarily into the movement formula, but: How many sprints (full round move actions, partial moves etc...) can someone put out in any given combat segment? After all, multiple (encumbered) sprints would exhaust even the fittest of athletes very quickly. Thanks again!:clap:
Nyaricus 01-11-06, 05:50 PM	Why? Dexterity already covers the "runner takes off from the starting line" in the form of initiative check. Well, my reasoning is threefold. 1) if you read my entry, I say in the very lines you quoted. 2) it brings back a bit of meaning to ability scores, rather than the modifiers you derive from them. 3) It is clean and simple and easy to do, the only thing to keep in mind is order of operations. Also, speeds do tend to end up close to the base of 30' - but some who are more athletic (warrior-types) or quicker/stronger (elves, half-orcs) move faster (which makes complete sense, IMO) and those who aren't (mages and commoners and such) get less speed, which again, makes sense. It should be noted that I still use Con-based checks (I don't remeber the exact mechanics at the moment, but onewards . . . ) for long distance running. This makes perfect sense, IMO, and I don't beleive that there are any conflicting rules for this.
Pz.Az.04Maus 01-11-06, 06:52 PM	Feel free. However, I'm still getting what I'd hoped for! :dancin: You guys are doing a great job! Thanks!!! Regarding characters, it's easy to apply. Like any homebrew rule, it will only be reasonably balanced as long as the rule is evenly applied to all NPCs as well. Seems like quite a bit of extra work though. Originally, I was hoping for something with a hint of ease. Even so, it's a good formula and I'd love to hear how well it works for players - especially how both the (newly) speeded up characters and the (newly) slowed down characters felt once they've felt the effects... . Thanks again!:clap: I think the formula is just a little bit more difficult, about on the same lines as an attack or damage roll, so it's not that bad...
Pz.Az.04Maus 01-12-06, 08:14 PM	:tiphat:bump
Yabanjin 01-13-06, 12:09 PM	How about this: 7th Attribute: speed Positive modifiers would increase movement by +5' per point. Negative modifiers would decrease movement by -5' per point. The base movement would be as usual, by size, race, class etc... .
LordofNightmares 01-13-06, 02:24 PM	I house ruled this right wne 3.0 came out, and have stuck with it ever sicne, and was even joyous when I saw it was the official rule for BESMd20. Base Speed = DEX x 3, +/- size modifiers. Alternate movement modes are pretty much left as is. I've used this since 3.0 came out and its worked perfectly fine for me and my group. Being that I am almost as opposed to a 7th STAT as I am to psionics, I cannot really comment on your idea without saying some mean things, and I'd rahter not... So i'll jsut say, if you like the idea play test it a bit and see if it really works for you.
Pz.Az.04Maus 01-13-06, 03:17 PM	I'm already doing another attribute, that of comeliness. Besides, the extra attribute points made for a Point-buy system will be a pain. If you want, we can add in the Agility function from the other thread on this board. trust me, if you don't want to have the basics of D&D changed, this isn't really good to do. But, I'll go forth with it.
Pz.Az.04Maus 01-13-06, 03:38 PM	Also, I'd like it if we continued with both the New attribute and the new rule ways of making people go faster. Might Help.
Lady Maedhros 01-13-06, 06:45 PM	You get this problem with a 7th attribute, though. Noncasters (i include pallies and rangers in this) already require three to four good stats to be effective. Casters require only two at most (dare to be a wizard with 7 Con). With the addition of speed, you now have four to five essential stats to be effective. You've also significantly reduced the usefulness of class features like the barbarian and monk's speed boosts and the paladin's warhorse. Meanwhile casters still don't care, because they get fly spells at fixed speeds like 60. Under a point buy, it's fine for physical types because they could just leave Speed at 10 - and could be a good boost for archer types as they could give up a little speed for a little dex or strength or con that they need more - but it's such an amazing dump stat for casters that it verges on overpowered. I'd also hesitate to base it on Dex in any way at all, since Dex is already the most important stat in the game. Also, you've got things like the Run feat (Dash being a phenomenal waste of a feat slot, i won't mention it here), so the need to adjust base speed isn't that great. Why not just roll a d6 at character creation? 1-2 is -5 ft to base speed, 3-4 is base speed and 5-6 is +5 ft to base speed. Some people are just faster than others, and one square is enough to catch someone in a chase but not enough to seriously throw off the current balance of the game. And speed boosts already in the game remain meaningful.
Yabanjin 01-14-06, 12:33 PM	You get this problem with a 7th attribute, though. Noncasters (i include pallies and rangers in this) already require three to four good stats to be effective. Casters require only two at most (dare to be a wizard with 7 Con). With the addition of speed, you now have four to five essential stats to be effective. You've also significantly reduced the usefulness of class features like the barbarian and monk's speed boosts and the paladin's warhorse. Meanwhile casters still don't care, because they get fly spells at fixed speeds like 60. Under a point buy, it's fine for physical types because they could just leave Speed at 10 - and could be a good boost for archer types as they could give up a little speed for a little dex or strength or con that they need more - but it's such an amazing dump stat for casters that it verges on overpowered. I'd also hesitate to base it on Dex in any way at all, since Dex is already the most important stat in the game. Also, you've got things like the Run feat (Dash being a phenomenal waste of a feat slot, i won't mention it here), so the need to adjust base speed isn't that great. All excellent points. Why not just roll a d6 at character creation? 1-2 is -5 ft to base speed, 3-4 is base speed and 5-6 is +5 ft to base speed. Some people are just faster than others, and one square is enough to catch someone in a chase but not enough to seriously throw off the current balance of the game. And speed boosts already in the game remain meaningful. Somehow, this seems too easy. I don't have an alternative, but for some reason, it seems less well composed compared to the previous arguments. Anyway, thanks for the input! In fact, thanks again to everyone who has posted! This has been a great discussion and I appreciate the commentary! (more is welcome, this isn't meant as a sayonara speech)
Pz.Az.04Maus 01-17-06, 07:23 AM	:tiphat: Bump.
Pz.Az.04Maus 02-25-06, 04:56 PM	:tiphat: Bump.