Multiclassing [Archive] - Wizards Community

Multiclassing [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
darkwarrior42
12-16-05, 03:51 AM While certain combinations of multiclassing can be potent, I've always felt that multiclassing in 3.0 and 3.5 is discouraged by the system. Every class has abilities that grow in power with level, and a level 6 cleric / level 6 wizard isn't as effective as a level 12 cleric or a level 12 wizard (I'm ignoring pretige class qualifications here.) Furthermore, if you're not a human or a half-elf, your options are further limited. An elven ranger/fighter, for instance, is penalized despite being an obvious choice for an elf.

I don't like the idea of prestige classes being easy to gain, so while I don't require a test for entry (as one variant in the UA suggests), I do require some special condition to be met. I also don't allow characters to take more than one prestige class until they have completed the first one they chose, and even then it has to fulfill a significant story need for the character. If the character only wants mechanical advantages, no deal... I'm more willing to be lenient on this point if the first prestige class has less than 10 levels, for the same reason those classes have no epic progression: they represent less commitment on the part of the character.
Note: I don't force characters to only take levels in their prestige class once begun. A Dwarven Fighter 8 / Dwarven Defender 2 could take more fighter levels, but he wouldn't be able to take any levels in Hammer of Moradin until he had 10 levels of Dwarven Defender.

Here are the changes I was considering:

Fractional base attack/save progressions with the stipulation that for every class with common good saves beyond the first, you lower that save by 1. For example, a level 2 fighter/level 2 rogue would have base saves of Fort 3.66 Ref 3.66 Will 1.33. Adding a level of cleric to this would normally increase the fortitude save by 2.5, but since this is the second class this character has with a good fortitude save, that drops to 1.5, yielding a final save of Fort 5.16, Ref 4, Will 3.83. Adding a level of Monk will increase each of these by another 1.5, since the character already has at least one class with a good save in each saving throw.

Reducing the +2 bonus at level 1 for a good save to +1 for each extra class with that same good save helps ensure characters don't get absurdly high good saves while still giving a noticble boost.

Magic Ratings not distinguishing between arcane and divine ratings. Regarding psionics, I do rule that magic ratings do not help with psionics, and only classes that don't cast any spells can apply their magic rating to psionic classes (Monk, Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue). Similarly, the Psionic classes can't apply their rating to casting magic spells.

Spell Points out of the Unearthed Arcana, with the following stipulations:
-Regarding metamagic feats, characters who prepare spells must prepare the metamagic version to have access to it for the day. Spontaneous casters take a full-round action to cast the spell. Metamagic feats cost 2 points per spell level modifier to apply, and you still cannot use a spell if it's total spell level is higher than you could normally cast.
-You do not have seperate spell point pools for each class. Instead, you have a single spell point pool which you use to cast all of your spells. You still track all other features of spellcasting classes seperately (including maximum spell level known/cast, spells known, and caster level), subject to the magic ratings rule.
-Instead of using the books chart for bonus spell points, characters gain a number of bonus spell points equal to their caster level * key ability modifier * 1/2.
-I'm also strongly considering boosting the number of spell points a sorcerer gains... as it stands, there's not much benefit to being a sorcerer (at level 20, they only have 17 more spell points, and have fewer level 9 spells known than a wizard can prepare every day) My initial thought is to boost the Sorcerer's spell points by 15%, rounding down, giving them 286 spell points at level 20, but still 3 at level 1. Considering that normally a sorcerer can cast 50% more spells (excluding bonus spells) this seems logical, and provides a solid advantage to playing a sorcerer I don't feel is present in the normal spell point system.

Alternatively, I was considering giving each character two spell pools: one arcane, one divine. I dislike the original system of each class having a seperate spell pool, because the psionic classes aren't bound by this restriction. If I did that, I would probably also make magic ratings arcane v divine as well, with the non-spellcasters still applying their ratings to all classes.

-Even though I'm not using the Eberron setting, any non-setting specific feats from that book are allowed, specifically the Knightly Training and Monastic Training freats to allow characters to multiclass as paladins or monks at the cost of 1 or 2 feats.

The last change I wanted to implement regards favored classes and multiclassing XP. Simply put, I don't like multiclassed characters taking penalties on experience, so I removed that from my games. Instead, if you are a single-classed member of a race's favored class, you get a 5% bonus on experience earned as long as you remain single classed. Adding any other class (including prestige classes, even racially specific ones) negates this bonus. Humans get no experience bonus, their adaptability being reflected in their extra feat and skills. Half-elves, who I feel are gypped, get a 5% bonus on experience gained while they remain single-classed. As outcasts, they are forced to learn on their own, and are skilled at doing so. I know that these changes will encourage single-classed characters to a degree, but the fact that they're set (except for half-elves) makes that impact minimal.

Thoughts?
loaba
12-16-05, 02:21 PM Furthermore, if you're not a human or a half-elf, your options are further limited. An elven ranger/fighter, for instance, is penalized despite being an obvious choice for an elf.
Hmm, about that Elven Fighter/Ranger, how exactly is this character penalized? As long as he keeps either class within 1 level of the other, there is no penalty. Also, PrCs are exempt from any penalty, so that's not a problem either.

One thing I do is highly discourage level-dips within multiple PrCs. That just feels dirty to me.
darkwarrior42
12-16-05, 04:25 PM You're right, it's not a penalty so long as the elf keeps his levels close... but an elven fighter/ranger feels natural enough to me that I don't think he should have to do that. An elf who devotes most of his energy to the woods, but was forced to fight in wartime and thus has 12 levels of ranger and 3 levels of fighter would be something I could easily see, but he'd have experience penalties in the RAW system. And I like prestige classes... I just get nostalgic about 2nd edition occasionally when multiclassed characters of all sorts regularly mixed it up without any fear, and I wanted to make multiclassing core classes, especially amongst spellcasting classes, more feasible without making them more powerful outright than single-classed versions who are more focused.

Level-dipping in PrCs (I like that term) is exactly what I wanted to get rid of by restricting how many a character could take...
Puggins
12-16-05, 05:08 PM Well, keep in mind that a 2nd or 1st ed. multiclass had no choice but to keep his classes fairly close to each other in level, at least by official rules.

A simple fix would be to lengthen the list of preferred classes, but have a character pick one. So Elves would have both ranger and wizard as preferred classes, Dwarves would have fighters and clerics, so on and so forth.

I don't really agree that 3.5e discourages multiclassing in general. It certainly discourages multiclassing with spellcasters, but non-spellchuckers multiclass quite nicely. The concept of the prestige class compensates for the poor spell multiclassing, however- I think that we now have at least one prestige class for every combination of spellcasters in the game. I forget what all the others are named, but if you wanted to do a wizard/cleric then just go for the mystic theurge class. At the end of the line (20th) you'll have a nice 17wiz/13cleric, 17cleric/17wiz, or 15cleric/15wiz (or other combinations if they rub your fancy). It combines the two quite well. There's several others too- one that specializes in bardic cominations (in complete adventurer) one that specializes in druid combinations (in complete divine, I think), one for the dark art lovers among us (True necromancer from Libris Mortis), and one for the Psionically minded (in the expanded psionic handbook).
loaba
12-16-05, 05:15 PM You're right, it's not a penalty so long as the elf keeps his levels close... but an elven fighter/ranger feels natural enough to me that I don't think he should have to do that. An elf who devotes most of his energy to the woods, but was forced to fight in wartime and thus has 12 levels of ranger and 3 levels of fighter would be something I could easily see, but he'd have experience penalties in the RAW system.
There is a way around this, if you allow the core racial sub-types in the MM. A Wood Elf does have Ranger as it's favored class, so there ya go.

Yeah, the real multi-classing issue is with PrC's, no doubt. I would love to see a hard ruling that detailed how these classes work together and what happens when you abandon one.

I generally dislike having to house rule, but I am pretty much set on limiting folks to one PrC.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
darkwarrior42 12-16-05, 03:51 AM	While certain combinations of multiclassing can be potent, I've always felt that multiclassing in 3.0 and 3.5 is discouraged by the system. Every class has abilities that grow in power with level, and a level 6 cleric / level 6 wizard isn't as effective as a level 12 cleric or a level 12 wizard (I'm ignoring pretige class qualifications here.) Furthermore, if you're not a human or a half-elf, your options are further limited. An elven ranger/fighter, for instance, is penalized despite being an obvious choice for an elf. I don't like the idea of prestige classes being easy to gain, so while I don't require a test for entry (as one variant in the UA suggests), I do require some special condition to be met. I also don't allow characters to take more than one prestige class until they have completed the first one they chose, and even then it has to fulfill a significant story need for the character. If the character only wants mechanical advantages, no deal... I'm more willing to be lenient on this point if the first prestige class has less than 10 levels, for the same reason those classes have no epic progression: they represent less commitment on the part of the character. Note: I don't force characters to only take levels in their prestige class once begun. A Dwarven Fighter 8 / Dwarven Defender 2 could take more fighter levels, but he wouldn't be able to take any levels in Hammer of Moradin until he had 10 levels of Dwarven Defender. Here are the changes I was considering: Fractional base attack/save progressions with the stipulation that for every class with common good saves beyond the first, you lower that save by 1. For example, a level 2 fighter/level 2 rogue would have base saves of Fort 3.66 Ref 3.66 Will 1.33. Adding a level of cleric to this would normally increase the fortitude save by 2.5, but since this is the second class this character has with a good fortitude save, that drops to 1.5, yielding a final save of Fort 5.16, Ref 4, Will 3.83. Adding a level of Monk will increase each of these by another 1.5, since the character already has at least one class with a good save in each saving throw. Reducing the +2 bonus at level 1 for a good save to +1 for each extra class with that same good save helps ensure characters don't get absurdly high good saves while still giving a noticble boost. Magic Ratings not distinguishing between arcane and divine ratings. Regarding psionics, I do rule that magic ratings do not help with psionics, and only classes that don't cast any spells can apply their magic rating to psionic classes (Monk, Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue). Similarly, the Psionic classes can't apply their rating to casting magic spells. Spell Points out of the Unearthed Arcana, with the following stipulations: -Regarding metamagic feats, characters who prepare spells must prepare the metamagic version to have access to it for the day. Spontaneous casters take a full-round action to cast the spell. Metamagic feats cost 2 points per spell level modifier to apply, and you still cannot use a spell if it's total spell level is higher than you could normally cast. -You do not have seperate spell point pools for each class. Instead, you have a single spell point pool which you use to cast all of your spells. You still track all other features of spellcasting classes seperately (including maximum spell level known/cast, spells known, and caster level), subject to the magic ratings rule. -Instead of using the books chart for bonus spell points, characters gain a number of bonus spell points equal to their caster level * key ability modifier * 1/2. -I'm also strongly considering boosting the number of spell points a sorcerer gains... as it stands, there's not much benefit to being a sorcerer (at level 20, they only have 17 more spell points, and have fewer level 9 spells known than a wizard can prepare every day) My initial thought is to boost the Sorcerer's spell points by 15%, rounding down, giving them 286 spell points at level 20, but still 3 at level 1. Considering that normally a sorcerer can cast 50% more spells (excluding bonus spells) this seems logical, and provides a solid advantage to playing a sorcerer I don't feel is present in the normal spell point system. Alternatively, I was considering giving each character two spell pools: one arcane, one divine. I dislike the original system of each class having a seperate spell pool, because the psionic classes aren't bound by this restriction. If I did that, I would probably also make magic ratings arcane v divine as well, with the non-spellcasters still applying their ratings to all classes. -Even though I'm not using the Eberron setting, any non-setting specific feats from that book are allowed, specifically the Knightly Training and Monastic Training freats to allow characters to multiclass as paladins or monks at the cost of 1 or 2 feats. The last change I wanted to implement regards favored classes and multiclassing XP. Simply put, I don't like multiclassed characters taking penalties on experience, so I removed that from my games. Instead, if you are a single-classed member of a race's favored class, you get a 5% bonus on experience earned as long as you remain single classed. Adding any other class (including prestige classes, even racially specific ones) negates this bonus. Humans get no experience bonus, their adaptability being reflected in their extra feat and skills. Half-elves, who I feel are gypped, get a 5% bonus on experience gained while they remain single-classed. As outcasts, they are forced to learn on their own, and are skilled at doing so. I know that these changes will encourage single-classed characters to a degree, but the fact that they're set (except for half-elves) makes that impact minimal. Thoughts?
loaba 12-16-05, 02:21 PM	Furthermore, if you're not a human or a half-elf, your options are further limited. An elven ranger/fighter, for instance, is penalized despite being an obvious choice for an elf. Hmm, about that Elven Fighter/Ranger, how exactly is this character penalized? As long as he keeps either class within 1 level of the other, there is no penalty. Also, PrCs are exempt from any penalty, so that's not a problem either. One thing I do is highly discourage level-dips within multiple PrCs. That just feels dirty to me.
darkwarrior42 12-16-05, 04:25 PM	You're right, it's not a penalty so long as the elf keeps his levels close... but an elven fighter/ranger feels natural enough to me that I don't think he should have to do that. An elf who devotes most of his energy to the woods, but was forced to fight in wartime and thus has 12 levels of ranger and 3 levels of fighter would be something I could easily see, but he'd have experience penalties in the RAW system. And I like prestige classes... I just get nostalgic about 2nd edition occasionally when multiclassed characters of all sorts regularly mixed it up without any fear, and I wanted to make multiclassing core classes, especially amongst spellcasting classes, more feasible without making them more powerful outright than single-classed versions who are more focused. Level-dipping in PrCs (I like that term) is exactly what I wanted to get rid of by restricting how many a character could take...
Puggins 12-16-05, 05:08 PM	Well, keep in mind that a 2nd or 1st ed. multiclass had no choice but to keep his classes fairly close to each other in level, at least by official rules. A simple fix would be to lengthen the list of preferred classes, but have a character pick one. So Elves would have both ranger and wizard as preferred classes, Dwarves would have fighters and clerics, so on and so forth. I don't really agree that 3.5e discourages multiclassing in general. It certainly discourages multiclassing with spellcasters, but non-spellchuckers multiclass quite nicely. The concept of the prestige class compensates for the poor spell multiclassing, however- I think that we now have at least one prestige class for every combination of spellcasters in the game. I forget what all the others are named, but if you wanted to do a wizard/cleric then just go for the mystic theurge class. At the end of the line (20th) you'll have a nice 17wiz/13cleric, 17cleric/17wiz, or 15cleric/15wiz (or other combinations if they rub your fancy). It combines the two quite well. There's several others too- one that specializes in bardic cominations (in complete adventurer) one that specializes in druid combinations (in complete divine, I think), one for the dark art lovers among us (True necromancer from Libris Mortis), and one for the Psionically minded (in the expanded psionic handbook).
loaba 12-16-05, 05:15 PM	You're right, it's not a penalty so long as the elf keeps his levels close... but an elven fighter/ranger feels natural enough to me that I don't think he should have to do that. An elf who devotes most of his energy to the woods, but was forced to fight in wartime and thus has 12 levels of ranger and 3 levels of fighter would be something I could easily see, but he'd have experience penalties in the RAW system. There is a way around this, if you allow the core racial sub-types in the MM. A Wood Elf does have Ranger as it's favored class, so there ya go. Yeah, the real multi-classing issue is with PrC's, no doubt. I would love to see a hard ruling that detailed how these classes work together and what happens when you abandon one. I generally dislike having to house rule, but I am pretty much set on limiting folks to one PrC.