Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ut-Napishtim 12-06-04, 03:34 AM	Not too long ago I put my house rules up on this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=4973099#post4973099) for folks to check out. Others had done the same, so I figured what the heck. I didn't get any response on them, but that doesn't neccesarily mean they're good since the thread had already been kind of derailed into another discussion. With that in mind I figured I'd subject myself to hostile fire here. This is what I wrote there: Well I suppose I should throw my own house rules out here for criticism. It seems only fair, and who knows - I might learn something. For starters, no crossbreeding - period. I get so tired of having to explain to some munchkin why he can't play a quarter vampire / quarter elf / quarter cloud giant / quarter dragon. I simply try and burn the image of that coitus from my mind and say: I don't allow crossbreeding in my games. Yes, that means no Half-Elves or Half-Orcs as well, even though they are core. It applies to both PC's and NPC's equally and consistently. To make up for the loss of two core races I allow the players to take any fullblood optional races with a LA of +1 or less, and all the PC's start at 2nd level so they can actually have a level of PC class along with it, or they can even take a standard race and start out multiclassed if they like, etc. Biologically crossbreeding is phenomenally rare, and it has become so commonplace in D&D I see campaigns with entire cities of Half-Elves and crap. The second one is that the Skill Focus Feat gives you four ranks in the selected skill instead of a +3 bonus on it. These bonus ranks can exceed the class and cross-class max, and can be used to qualify for prestige classes. I figure if you're going to burn a Feat on a single Skill - it should really count. Surprisingly none of my players have taken advantage of this at all, but it makes the local NPC craftsmen or whatever they might shop with good at their trades when they take it. That's it. EDIT: Ooops, in my haste I forgot one. I also allow Paladins to be of any alignment. Rather than being the golden-boy of good or whatever, they are holy warriors for a specific church or deity. Of course, unlike Clerics they must still be the same alignment as their deity, just not always Lawful Good. Powers and such are reversed as they are for good or evil Clerics, with neutrals being able to choose between the two effects as with Clerics. This doesn't really come into play much either since Paladins are pretty uncommon I don't chum my world with NPC Paladins, and I've only have a couple players try it out. Those couple that did liked the change though. There are some other variants that aren't house rules I use that are specific to the campaign I'm running. This campaign I formed around what the players decided to take, so these aren't normal things I do - just extras added for "color." For example, one of my players wanted to play a Dwarven Barbarian. I know a lot of folks view Barbarians as Fighters with anger management issues, but personally I consider them as more culturally different than that. Of course strict Dwarven society isn't exactly conducive to churning out Barbarians. So I decided that Dwarven society had collapsed for some reason in the past, and instead of dwelling in their mountain halls they roamed the hills in tribal clans to accomodate the player. The other change came about when I asked my group what pantheon they'd like to see used for the campaign. The responses varied from: I don't know to I don't care, so I just did away with deities, Clerics, and Paladins entirely. Druids and Rangers can still draw their powers from the planet, but folks associate Druids' wildform abilities with Lycanthropy and are generally wary of them. The main NPC healers for the campaign are instead Herbalists and Apothecaries, both use the Adept NPC class and their title really depends largely on the scope of their operation. Small towns have Herbalists, cities have Apothecaries. Of course this lack creates a world vulnerable to asorted demonic cults and other fringe groups, and a populace that is very fearful of the undead. Cremation is the norm and has been a long held tradition that supposedly helps keep loved ones from coming back. Folks are rather superstitious as well, and it's not uncommon to find an NPC wearing cold iron bracelets or carying around a pocket full of hickory shavings to "ward off the fey creatures." All these things were formed around the players' early decisions though, so they've worked out great of course. I just wanted to toss them in the mix in case anyone was looking for campaign ideas, and of the course in the interest of providing total disclosure.
DM Zoc 12-06-04, 08:48 AM	I disagree that there is anything wrong with a city full of half-elves. Humans and elves are both good civilizations with a lot in common, and it seems to me that inter-racial marriage should be as common in D&D as it is in real life. I also disagree that a paladin should have a non-lawful-good alignment, but that's mostly because I've never considered them to be religion-based. I would sooner allowe a chaotic-evil paladin than a neutral-good one. They are meant to be the epitome of a way of thinking. At any rate, your rules don't actually change anything; they just add flavor and reduce the options. If you have a number of balanced options, and then you remove a few of them, the remainder are still balanced.
Ut-Napishtim 12-06-04, 09:56 AM	Well Elves and Humans have different anatomies, lifespans, gestation periods, genetic makeups, not to mention the cultural differences. I suppose it wouldn't be too much of a stretch for a Human/Elf couple to produce a single viable offspring thoughout the course of a lifelong relationship and a series of emotionally painful miscarriages. Of course then the Elf is looking at not only outliving their beloved mate, but also the child produced by that relationship. To have 10,000 Humans and 10,000 Elves lining up for this tragic drama to create a city of crossbreeds goes beyond the pale for me. Not that I have anything against Half-Elves. The rule is to prevent players from crossbreeding different races to create some kind of super-mongrel. Including Half-Elves and Half-Orcs in the restriction makes it consistent and all-encompassing, and drives the point home hard. Then when they say: How come I can't be a quarter Drow / quarter Dragon / quarter Vampire / quarter Demon? I just tell 'em: Dude, I don't even allow Half-Elves. If you'd like to check out some optional races though that's cool, as long as their LA is +1 or less. I've found that most players looking for a crossbreed either: A. Can't figure out what Race they really want, or B. Are powergaming. Increasing the choices to a wider range of pre-balanced options usually successfully solves both issues. Initially disgruntled Hlaf-Elf players usually perk up when they peruse the fifty-thousand or so types of Elves that have been put out, while the disappointed Half-Orc wannabe is usually very satisfied with a full-blood Orc or Hobgoblin character. There's nothing wrong with using crossbreeds in your games if you like them, it's just my preference after becoming jaded by too many PC Half-Elf / Half-Ogre's dual wielding Bastard Swords - ugh.
Thelon Fairblade 12-06-04, 11:13 AM	Interesting rules, both crossbreeding and no gods. My own players gave the same responses when I asked them about Pantheons. Here we go and make a whole brand new world with new races and new lands and new magic... and one player suggests "let's just use the standard gods". What a disappointment. I'm thinking I like your idea... ok, *no* gods! As for crossbreeding, I think you are probably right. I was reading a module for the new Sun & Scale setting... and every major NPC was a half-something. Half-hobgoblin leader, with half-drow and half-demon (tiefling) lieutenants, and half-orc bodyguard. Argh!
Ut-Napishtim 12-06-04, 04:28 PM	Yeah, this is the first time I've tried the no gods thing myself. So far it's working out alright. It's not as if the PC's can't get the various healing and restorative spells they need from local Adepts - for a price. I actually did up a mix of the Babylonian and Sumerian deities for my last game, and didn't feel like re-using them. The standard gods in the PHB are alright, but a lot of a game's flavor comes from religion and I wasn't comfortable with using them in this one. The players seem to be enjoying the stark you're on your own, bub tone of a world without Deus ex Machina. Thanks for the positive feedback.
Dragonspirit 12-06-04, 06:19 PM	Well, might as well review since I'm quoting you in my sig and all :) For starters, no crossbreeding - period. Seems fine to me. You're the DM, and get to set the makeup of your world. That's your perogative. The second one is that the Skill Focus Feat gives you four ranks in the selected skill instead of a +3 bonus on it. These bonus ranks can exceed the class and cross-class max, and can be used to qualify for prestige classes. I agree that Skill Focus should be better, but allowing it to count as ranks to qualify for a PrC is risky. Often, that is one of the built in barriers to qualifying for such things too early. So I decided that Dwarven society had collapsed for some reason in the past, and instead of dwelling in their mountain halls they roamed the hills in tribal clans to accomodate the player. That's fine, but I think you're putting too much of the work on your shoulders with that. Let your players create their backgrounds. Part of the fun of the game for the DM is to be able to weave such things in, and of course not every Dwarven society would necessarily follow the same rules. Clerics, and Paladins entirely. Druids and Rangers can still draw their powers from the planet, but folks associate Druids' wildform abilities with Lycanthropy and are generally wary of them. Augmenting healing then will have to be drastic to make up for that. Not that it's a bad idea, but to supplement the mechanic is going to require a serious change, or you're going to have a lot of downtime for characters to heal up. I had actually thought of something like this before, and though to augment healing with something like 'spice' from the Dune series. A precious commodity unique to this world that drastically accelerates healing. Then, control of said item becomes a campaign plot hook.
The Abominable Darkling 12-06-04, 10:22 PM	Ooops, in my haste I forgot one. I also allow Paladins to be of any alignment. Rather than being the golden-boy of good or whatever, they are holy warriors for a specific church or deity.I've thought about doing this for my next campaign as well. I think it's a little odd to call them "paladins" though. That word, after all, has a rather specific meaning. I'm calling them "crusaders" instead. Also, it seems a little odd for Chaotic Evil crusaders to be running around laying on hands, so I'm considering removing that ability and allowing Crusaders to choose a single cleric domain power from among those offered by their deity instead.
Ut-Napishtim 12-07-04, 03:29 AM	Well Dragonspirit, it seems that we think a lot alike. Many of your points I actually have considered, some I have not. Good input either way though. The Skill Focus thing could ruin the balance of PrC's, but I haven't really found out yet because none of my players have even taken an interest in that one yet. I've used it on my NPC's to make them a really good Miner, Carpenter, etc. So far it hasn't caused any trouble, but I'll keep a close watch on it if a player ever decides to take it. It was mostly for situations like if a Fighter wanted to become an Assassin or similar difficult cross-overs, but it seems most players that are gunning for a PrC select the class that will best help them get there rather than wasting Feats - probably why it hasn't come up. The Dwarf player is a first-time player. Now I have a Dwarf army for Warhammer and I'm pretty fond of 'traditional' Dwarfs in my campaigns. I didn't want to crush this poor guy's character concept with my rather purist atitude towards Dwarfs. I mean, his Dwarf's name is 'Jack' and he's currently running around in a black Chain Shirt the party got off a Drow (normal as Chain Shirt, but special black treament negates the -2 check penalties to Move Silent and Hide only.) Rather than say: No self-respecting Dwarf would ever wear that! I just figured I'd throw in a justification for why he's a Barbarian that doesn't know any better. That way he can do what he wants to, and I an stop biting my tongue - ouch! They actually have Herbalists and Apothecaries for healing and such still, and I did something similar to what you suggested in the first session. I told them the Herbalist could sell them a poultice that'd help their injuries. For 10 gp it doubles the natural healing rate. I also use the optional Constitution modifiers, so with the poultice a second-level character with a 13 Con would gain [4+1 (x2)]. Cheaper than a potion of Cure Light Wounds and effective. A lot of these Adepts have the Brew Potion Feat too, so so far it's worked out OK. Of course, my game usually only has a couple combats per session with hefty RP bonuses to compensate. The Abominable Darkling, I guess the name thing could seem a little off if you allow them to be any alignment - I'll have to look at that in the future. What I normally do is handle the powers like Ceric's. For example, the good ones heal HP with lay on hands, the evil ones cause damage with it instead, and the neurals can select which ability they'd prefer. Domain powers would be cool as well though, so I'll have to check that out.
Thelon Fairblade 12-07-04, 09:12 AM	Healing suggestion: In my next campaign, we are going to allow non-magical healing. However, to keep things distinct, non-magical healing doesn't make damage go away; instead, it converts lethal damage to non-lethal damage. So a poultice from the herbalist might still "heal" d8, for only 12 gold, but would only convert 8 lethal damage to 8 non-lethal (which would then heal at an hourly rate).
evangelion1010 12-08-04, 12:53 AM	If a 'paladin' is evil, he uses the blackguard class. If neutral, give him options like a neutral cleric. Also, CW has LE, CG, NE paladin varients
DM Zoc 12-08-04, 02:08 AM	A human rogue can get into the Assassin prestige class at level 2. A sorcerer of any race can take Dragon Disciple as the second level.
Ut-Napishtim 12-08-04, 03:18 AM	If a 'paladin' is evil, he uses the blackguard class. If neutral, give him options like a neutral cleric. Also, CW has LE, CG, NE paladin varients Oh, this is something that I stole from my first DM. He did the same thing, and one of my early characters was a neutral Paladin of Bes, the Egyptian god of Luck. I've included it ever since those 1E games, and it's been pretty well hammered out over the years. All of the other recent Paladin variants seem to fall short. It just doesn't make sense to me that a Paladin has to qualify for a PrC before he can go bad, or that he can't just start out bad, or neutral, or whatever. Simply swapping the abilities based off alignment and attuning it to the deities of the game works very well and brings some more RP possibilities to the core class.
Paladin_Egomaniac 12-08-04, 03:35 AM	Well it seems that the views you express are quite reasonable to my mind, with maybe the exception of the skill focus thing, but since that is such an under picked feat, sure why not. As for the whole cross breeding thing, would you wanna mate with your dog. Seriously, think on this, a dog lives roughly the same life ratio as a human to an elf. Now I do realize their are some obvious intellectual difference between dogs and humans, as to the human ot the elf, but some of what I said still applies. So I really agree with you on that. I myself still have half-elves in one of my worlds, but they are only possible through male human/female elf. And always products of distastful act such as rape. And boy are half-elves hated in that world, all two that exist. As for the paladin of any alignment, that is a tough call. It depends on the flavour of the world. I myself have no problem with making paladins lawful good, but I find that requirement should be left only to prestige classes and thus I use the Presitge Paladin from Unearthed Arcana. You can be a lawful barbarian if you want to in my campaigns, your capabilities are not tied to your ideology (SP?). As for gods, I hate and love the idea. Both of my campaign worlds have gods, but I have played in one or two that were godless. It all depends on how you pull it off. In short, I would not mind actually participating in one of your campaigns if that was an option open to me.
kilos 12-09-04, 12:17 AM	I just have one thing to say about the inter-breeding thing. An elf and a human cannot be compared to a human and a dog. Yes life length comparison they are the same. But one reason dnd is different then real life, is that most of these creatures fall into the same category. In real life a person can create offspring with a little person(midget... or HALFING... huh... dun, dun, dun)... It is because we are in the same group. Just like a Newfy(big dumb dog with a max lifespan of 7 years) can breed with a puddle(little annoying dog with a max lifespan of... well ours is a mix, but it has puddle in it, and it's 15 and still fine). But you see, from visial, they look nothing a like, but on the inside they're all the same. Now I have a problem with anyone breeding anything of differing types... like human(humanoid) and Harpy(monstrous humanoid), or a elf(humanoid) and computer(construct)... doesn't seem like that would work... So, yes, I don't think goblin should be able to breed with a human... goblinoid vs. humanoid... but I only think the breeding by type should work in the case of humanoid and goblinoid... no more... we don't want to see dogs getting it on with whales and harpies with mind-flayers... or a chimera with a pheonix... thats just madness... oh one more... a bat swarm with a spider swarm. HAHA! And seriously, what kind of person wants to get it on with an orc? Even other orcs don't want to do that. And a whole city full of them... I can't picture that happening... I mean, a handfull of freaks in every city pop: +5000, but a whole city full of them... seriously now. Okay I'm done...
JTalbain 12-12-04, 07:13 PM	I think there's one thing people are forgetting about for inter-breeding: Half-elves aren't mules. They can reproduce just fine on their own. If a male half-elf get it on with either a human or an elf, the offspring will be considered to be the race of the purebred (sounds weird or racist saying that) parent, because they have more ancestors of that race. A 3/4 Elf is an Elf for all intents and purposes. However, if two half-elves reproduce, they make another half-elf. This would be the most likely way for a whole city of half-elves to come about, and ironically, it would be very likely to happen in a world such as one of the ones described, where they are hated. Think about it, small group of half-elves are hated and thus are exiled from a city. They cannot find peace in other towns, where they are viewed with equal distrust, and so they are eventually forced to settle elsewhere. They begin their own town, with only each other as breeding stock, and voila! Within a couple centuries, they have a good sized village with a different pure breeding race. A few other suggestions though. If you want a very low population of interbred characters in your world, say that they're sterile. This makes for a stigma driven by practicality, since the offspring wouldn't be able to perpetuate society. Or take the Eberron approach and say that the two races, while feasible for a combination, have never lived in close enough proximity to find out (The Eberron explanation for the rarity of half-orcs). I personally disagree with barring two of the core races in a blanket statement to eliminate min-maxing. I like both the Half-Elf and the Half-Orc on their own merits , and I know I'd find little solace in the possibility of playing a full orc or one of a plethora of varieties of elves. God, I just want to vomit whenever I think of Forgotten Realms...
Ut-Napishtim 12-13-04, 03:48 AM	Actually I don't want a very low population of halfbreeds in my campaign - I want no halfbreeds in my campaign. Yeah it's upset a couple powergamers here and there that aren't really comfortable if they can't play a character with at least two attributes over 20, but they hit the road and I can't say I was sorry to see them go. I have no shortage of mature players that are eager to get in on my game though, so that might be influencing my opinion. Remember also that most of the pro-crossbreeding arguments have used Half-Elves which are the most probable out of all the crossbreed races. There are certainly good reasons they could exist in a fantasy game. I don't see anyone arguing for Half-Ogre/Half-Lizardfolk characters though, and eliminating one and not the other seems arbitrary and inconsistent to me. One thing I've found over the years is that players are comfortable playing characters that aren't flawless superheroes if they know everyone got the same fair-shake from the DM. I'm sure you've had that experience where you roll up characters and there are one or two players that have already made their characters 'one-on-one' with the DM. Then you spend the game bored and dissapointed because your Human Fighter can't hack bad guys as well as the Vampiric Ogre Mage/Drow Sorcerer that nobody but the DM saw make up his or her character. Sure you could say: You can't use the same argument for a Hill Giant/Fairy as you can for a Half-Elf! but how many munchkins do you know that would understand why? In my experience allowing Half-Elves and not Half-Celestial/Half-Illithid's leaves the powergamer that wanted the latter feeling cheated and sulking all night and even trying to intentionally ruin the game in some cases. Saying up front: There are no crossbreeds, none, nada, nil, not even Half-Elves. If you don't like it go play somewhere else. gets me a group made up of the type of players I'm looking for.
samsael 12-13-04, 11:52 AM	Another variant on Skill Focus I would suggest: SKILL FOCUS [GENERAL] Choose a skill. You get 2 ranks in that skill and the maximum rank for that skill increases by 2. You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new skill.
samsael 12-13-04, 12:00 PM	I think there's one thing people are forgetting about for inter-breeding: Half-elves aren't mules. They can reproduce just fine on their own. If a male half-elf get it on with either a human or an elf, the offspring will be considered to be the race of the purebred (sounds weird or racist saying that) parent, because they have more ancestors of that race. A 3/4 Elf is an Elf for all intents and purposes. However, if two half-elves reproduce, they make another half-elf. This would be the most likely way for a whole city of half-elves to come about, and ironically, it would be very likely to happen in a world such as one of the ones described, where they are hated. Think about it, small group of half-elves are hated and thus are exiled from a city. They cannot find peace in other towns, where they are viewed with equal distrust, and so they are eventually forced to settle elsewhere. They begin their own town, with only each other as breeding stock, and voila! Within a couple centuries, they have a good sized village with a different pure breeding race. A few other suggestions though. If you want a very low population of interbred characters in your world, say that they're sterile. This makes for a stigma driven by practicality, since the offspring wouldn't be able to perpetuate society. Or take the Eberron approach and say that the two races, while feasible for a combination, have never lived in close enough proximity to find out (The Eberron explanation for the rarity of half-orcs). I personally disagree with barring two of the core races in a blanket statement to eliminate min-maxing. I like both the Half-Elf and the Half-Orc on their own merits , and I know I'd find little solace in the possibility of playing a full orc or one of a plethora of varieties of elves. God, I just want to vomit whenever I think of Forgotten Realms... This is what differentiates race from species. That an elf and a human can produce fertile offspring means, by definition, that Human and Elf are each different races, breeds if you will, of the same species. Muls exist on Athas as the infertile offspring of Humans and Dwarves. Making Dwarves, by definition, a seperate species. I don't know if the PHB states one way or the other whether Half-orcs are fertile, but I would assume they are not. You could probably break the core playable races up into three groups: Demihuman (Human, Elf, Halfling, Half-elf), Dwarven (Dwarf, Gnome) and Crossbreed:Demihuman/Orcish (Half-orc).
JTalbain 12-13-04, 08:46 PM	On page 12 of the PHB, it states "Thanks to their penchant for migration and conquest, and to their short life spans, humans are more physically diverse than other common races... Plenty of humans have a dash of nonhuman blood, and they may demonstrate hints of elf, orc, or other lineages." This makes it fairly clear to me that humans have by far the most interbreeding, and its generally unheard of outside the human race. It would also imply that, yes, half-orcs can reproduce. I agree that players that are unwilling to play without a horrendously overpowered character should be shown the door, but to eliminate the possibility of that, you'd also need to eliminate everything else that can be potentially abused, like say feats. I've never had a game be ruined by someone multiracing all to hell; in fact, the closest I've come to that is someone playing an incubus psion with a miscalculated LA that upstaged the whole party. But, due to the miscalculation, I don't really count that. Have you ever seen the Savage Species book? I don't like most of the book, but I find the instructions for race creation to be rather nifty. Here's a suggestion for you to weed out the munchkins: Let them play what they want. Let them list off all the horrendous abilities that they have, then tally them up, plug them into the Savage Species formula, and whamm! Instant character. If the characters are as terrifying as they are made out to be, they should have about a +15 or so Level Adjustment. Now plug them into an appropriately leveled game. Suddenly, they realize the disadvantages of such a character, when they get hit once and die. Or, they may have a really high AC, then die instantly due to cloudkill. Maybe they're immune to poison, but then get felled immediately by a Power Word spell. Their character will have lots of horrifying abilities, but they'll be balanced, and everyone who's not a munchkin will be able to enjoy their character too. Honestly, if you supervise character creation, and don't let the players go overboard with heinous abilities, people could play whatever they want and still have an enjoyable game. Little things like the formula in Savage Species just grease the wheels for those that want a little something different.
Ut-Napishtim 12-14-04, 03:33 AM	Oh yeah, I've played in games where the DM's used level adjustents for all kinds of crazy stuff. They're of course usually miscalculated and the character ends up dominating the entire party. I don't start games out at 15th level - ever, so it's not really an issue for me. I don't have to do any calculations, there's no possibility of miscalculations, I'm saved a whole lot of headache and even having to deal with munchkins in the first place. Yup, works out great. I don't see it as that big of a deal. If a player just can't bear to play anything but a halfbreed, then I really ain't going to miss them when they go.
Carpe DM 12-14-04, 11:27 AM	Crossbreeding is just....stupid. Most D&D settings have 10,000 year recorded histories or more. Looking at it logically, if humans can breed with anything (and humans are the most commonly used species for crossbreeding) then over a few thousand years, and numerous generations, humans would be "bred out of existence". Here's why: Human has a baby with an elf. Half-human, half elf. Other human has a baby with an orc. Half-human, half-orc. These two now have a baby. Half-human, quarter elf, quarter orc. Now this one has a baby with a dwarf. Half dwarf, quarter human, eighth elf, eighth orc. This person now has a baby with an elf. Quarter dwarf, eighth human, 9/16th elf, 1/16th orc. The point is, if alot of people are doing this, then over time there would be no such thing as a pure human or pure elf. You would have nothing but a bunch of mutts who wouldn't reasonably be enough of anything to qualify for any ability score adjustments or special abilities. So you'd end up with a world full of people who get a straight 3d6 and nothing else. You may say to yourself, "There's many breeds of dog, and they can interbreed but it doesn't make the breeds of dog go away". Dogs also can't travel around the world. If you stuck 100 each of 50 breeds of dog into an enclosed environment where they would be safe and fed for all eternity, I guarantee you that over time there would eventually be one kind of dog in the enclosed environment. In a D&D world where people can teleport to other cities, or take magically speeded ships here and there, they can travel around the world just as quickly as you or I could in the modern day. Now, consider this: Prior to the 1800's, there were very few "cross-bred" humans in the real world. Before I begin this, understand I am not a racist in any way, this is purely an example. Let's say, based on physical characteristics, that there are the following "types" of humans: Asians, Africans (representing black people), Europeans (representing white people), Persians (people of the Persian Gulf and Middle East areas), and Natives (representing the original inhabitants of the American continents). Before the hastened travel options in the 1800's (ships were getting more powerful, and the trains were being used), there were hardly any people with Asian blood who weren't fully Asian. There were very few people of Native blood who weren't fully Native. There were some instances of crossbreeding with Africans, but this was generally due to slavery in Europe. Now, in the modern day, with airlines and other fast travel options, people of all types are interacting with eachother on a daily basis, and forming lasting relationships. I know many people who are half-Asian and half-European, or half-Native and half-European. My uncle is European descent and his wife is African descent, and their children are - you guessed it - half-European and half-African. Point is, over time there will be one kind of human. Based on dominant genes and the quanities of different types of people in the world, it's a fair estimate that your standard human male will be around five foot ten with coffee-colored skin and dark brown or black hair. There may be an occasional person who will vary from this, but not very many. Now I'm not saying this will happen tomorrow...but give it 10,000 years. Like in the D&D game's history period. Throughout that historical period in most D&D settings, people have been teleporting and seafaring for the full 10,000 years, and have had easy magical access to other cultures and peoples of the world. It is reasonable to conclude, then, that if humanoid species in D&D can interbreed, then over that 10,000 years you would end up with very few pure elves, pure dwarves, etc. I would say maybe 10% of all people would be a pure species, 20% might be a half-breed of some kind, 30% would have 3-4 kinds of blood, and 40% would be just mutts (so many different kinds of blood that it doesn't make a difference anymore). Personally I allow crossbreeds in my game, but they are sterile, so the best you can get is half-and-half. I then write down everything each of the races gets, on a peice of paper, and the player gets to select half of what's on that list, rounded down if there's an uneven number of things to pick. Then they take the ability score adjustments, add them together, and divide by two (so a half-human, half-elf in my system would get +1 Dex, -1 Con). So in this way, it's possible one half-elf may have a few different abilities than another, to represent not only what they got genetically, but also socially. If a half-human half-elf picks mainly elven abilities, then it can be reasonably assumed he grew up with his elven parent. This does, of course, mean I throw the core half-elf and core half-orc out the window. Oh well.
Fenalian 12-14-04, 03:23 PM	They dont seem all that bad. I like the idea of having a Paladin of different alignment. I have always seen the Paladin as a warrior of the church, it does not make much sense for a NG church to have a LG character as the one who accepts quests and is the ideal character to whom others aspire to be. Why should a LG church be the only with a paladin? does that mean a LE churchs followers are not as devote or have such strong feelings? Now, their powers/abilities should differ with each alignment.
JTalbain 12-14-04, 03:28 PM	As has already been said, it's your game, your rules. If you don't want any crossbreeds in the game, fine. By the way, what kinds of Level Adjustment are you talking about where the character was horrendously overpowered? It's kind of hard to discuss whether or not LA is valid on the basis of broad and vague remarks like "all sorts of things". The only reason I bother bringing up LA was as a tool for accomodating rather than restricting players in a reasonable fashion. As a DM myself, I feel that if anything is going to be a logistical nightmare, I usually don't allow it. But if I can work it into the game fairly easily, why not do so? I think that being denied a simple character concept on the basis that your DM isn't willing to do any work is rather frustrating. And then, of course, there's the fact that the 1/2 Elf and 1/2 Orc are already done for you...
Ut-Napishtim 12-15-04, 04:48 AM	Oh I use LA's, the players can take optional races provided they have a +1 LA or lower. Most "crossbreeders" aren't interested in creating halfbreeds that have a +1 LA or lower, or what they calculated turns out to be horribly wrong. Yeah, so I cam up with the halfbreed that has a net +6 on ability scores, spell resistance of 10+HD, a natural ability of Improved Invisibility, and DR 10/kryptonite. I figure that's about a +1 LA, right? Wrong! Then of course they're no longer interested in playing the race when you balance it out for them, so there's really no point in letting them try.
JTalbain 12-15-04, 09:30 AM	Wow... your players suck...
HailSpork 12-24-04, 04:34 PM	The no gods thing is interesting. Bear in mind, there are multiple ways to do no gods. For example, Eberron has no gods. It has religions with beings that are worshipped, but not gods the way any other world has gods. Also, this could leave the demon-worshipping cults with the powers of clerics; they couldn't progress to high, but they could do it. Also, you may want to check out the Healer class in the miniatures handbook.
taltamir 12-27-04, 02:26 AM	*wipes tear* I wish you were MY dm! Dude your rules are awesome. The skill focus thing bothered me for a WHILE and the solution of making it actually count as RANKS is the only way to go. No gods, no clerics... AWESOME. since clerics are way out of whack (better necromancers then necromancers, better casters then wiz/sorc, better fighters then fighters, etc etc). All the munchikens I know play a half orc cleric with 4 int. and this says alot about the class! The no halfbreed thing.. awesome, I agree. First there is the whole fact of it not being done, second there is the whole definition of species to consider, then the biological aspect, and the whole point of making it into a blanket statement that is fair to everyone is AWESOME. To the few who argued.. one of you brought up you cant see why an elf and human wouldnt marry.... let me be the ones to bring up that A STORCK DOES NOT BRING BABIES TO MARRIED COUPLES. They have to have sex, and then, if they are compatible, they have a child. You couldnt have a child with a dog or a gurrila, and neither could an elf have one with a human in his world, perfectly valid, yes they could marry and have sex (and probably considered as practitioners of beastiality by both species), no they could not make a baby. so is the explaination someone else gave that the halfbreeds are sterile, this again, is no problem with a munchie though... "OK... i wanna be a STERILE half fiend". If you DO allow them to interbreed.. they will, and pretty soon they will be a single variety... same with whats happening with humans now that we have fast transportation. As somone said, in a few generations you will have one kind of human, with mocha skin and black hair and generally 5' 8'' tall. Anyways, again, all your things are awesome... and please ignore those whiners who complain about them. they dont know what they are talking about... They probably dont even remember what it is to ROLE play instead of ROLL play anymore.
Judging Eagle 01-04-05, 02:47 PM	Oh I use LA's, the players can take optional races provided they have a +1 LA or lower. Most "crossbreeders" aren't interested in creating halfbreeds that have a +1 LA or lower, or what they calculated turns out to be horribly wrong. Yeah, so I cam up with the halfbreed that has a net +6 on ability scores, spell resistance of 10+HD, a natural ability of Improved Invisibility, and DR 10/kryptonite. I figure that's about a +1 LA, right? Wrong! Then of course they're no longer interested in playing the race when you balance it out for them, so there's really no point in letting them try. I think that the problem lies in the fact that the players don't want to actually have proper LA's calculated on their characters. Then again, I know a DM that has efficiently (story-wise) made at least two players play half breeds (one a half minotaur/dwarf who couldn't talk, I forget the story on that one, the other was a half silver dragon monk (wore an amulet that kept her looking human except for a few instances where she needed her inborn abilities) who was the child of an NPC great silver wyrm and a pc).
Krelios 01-04-05, 03:04 PM	Well Elves and Humans have different anatomies, lifespans, gestation periods, genetic makeups, not to mention the cultural differences. I suppose it wouldn't be too much of a stretch for a Human/Elf couple to produce a single viable offspring thoughout the course of a lifelong relationship and a series of emotionally painful miscarriages. Of course then the Elf is looking at not only outliving their beloved mate, but also the child produced by that relationship. To have 10,000 Humans and 10,000 Elves lining up for this tragic drama to create a city of crossbreeds goes beyond the pale for me. Not that I have anything against Half-Elves. The rule is to prevent players from crossbreeding different races to create some kind of super-mongrel. Including Half-Elves and Half-Orcs in the restriction makes it consistent and all-encompassing, and drives the point home hard. Then when they say: How come I can't be a quarter Drow / quarter Dragon / quarter Vampire / quarter Demon? I just tell 'em: Dude, I don't even allow Half-Elves. If you'd like to check out some optional races though that's cool, as long as their LA is +1 or less. I've found that most players looking for a crossbreed either: A. Can't figure out what Race they really want, or B. Are powergaming. Increasing the choices to a wider range of pre-balanced options usually successfully solves both issues. Initially disgruntled Hlaf-Elf players usually perk up when they peruse the fifty-thousand or so types of Elves that have been put out, while the disappointed Half-Orc wannabe is usually very satisfied with a full-blood Orc or Hobgoblin character. There's nothing wrong with using crossbreeds in your games if you like them, it's just my preference after becoming jaded by too many PC Half-Elf / Half-Ogre's dual wielding Bastard Swords - ugh. I'd play with any house rules as long as they are there for a reason/make sense in the campaign. You've down well at balancing these rules and justifying them. Happy gaming!
taltamir 01-04-05, 06:12 PM	Geck, how does a great wyrm get it on with a human... X.X This is just wrong! And a PC human with an NPC dragon at that! DM: You approach the dragon lair. Player 1,2,3: I prepare my weapons. Player 4: Sorry guys, I cant let you do that... I am gonna get my mack on! DM and Player 1,2,3: Excuse me? Player 4: Yeah, I am gonna seduce her... you guys can wait outside... we need some privacy. I am really curious as to what kind of die rolls were involved in THAT.
Krelios 01-05-05, 10:59 AM	Polymorph Self
Crashy75 01-06-05, 08:16 PM	I'm with you on the cross breeding rant. I don't do em. I use half orc stats for 'orcs'.
Ut-Napishtim 01-07-05, 03:16 AM	Hey, thanks for the encouragement guys! (And the criticisms as well of course.) I was actually rather surprised to see this thread still going. I might just have to have a couple of my players check it out. :thinks: