my concern about wp/vp system [Archive] - Wizards Community

my concern about wp/vp system [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
3doorsfan
09-22-05, 12:50 PM Doesnt it make for a tougher challenge at early levels ?

i mean all those monstors will have more hits to take right?

also how do you handle sneak attack damage?

thanks for all your help
dirty_rez
09-22-05, 04:54 PM actually, it seems to me that it would be harder at later levels... i mean, your WPs are equal to your current CON right? so even a beefed up fighter might have a 20 con ad mid levels... a critical hit from a CR 10 melle monster (even not multiplied) could easily kill someone.
BladeMage_1
09-22-05, 05:31 PM It actually works quite well in the SWRPG, it sets the players straight on the fact that they are mortal and they can die fairly easily. Of course there is less combat in the SWRPG too. However from my understanding is that it is somtimes harmful in DnD, with a lot more combat most of the time and all. I would use the VP/WP system but not for DnD since Players are fighting a lot more, and if they get crited, they go bye bye. :D

Although the HP system is more unrealistic. A high level fighter can get hit with a greataxe 10+ times and still be standing as normal as he would with full HP. It makes more sense to minus vitality points for hits and say "the Axe scraped your flesh, but otherwise causing no real harm."
Millennium
09-23-05, 12:55 AM Low-level monsters do indeed have more hits to take, but most low-level monsters have low Con, and so it's usually not that much of an issue. After all, the characters also have many more hits they can withstand. Even a barbarian with Con 12 gets double the "HP" he would normally have, and Wizards with Con 12 literally quadruple their hit-taking capacity. A stat of 12 is above average, but not terribly much so.

VP/WP fit better into the Star Wars system than it does into D&D, because the Star Wars system was built around it while D&D wasn't. For example, in the Star Wars system, effects like Improved Critical feat and the keen edge spell don't double your critical threat range; they only add 1 to it. This is needed to keep certain weapons or creatures (*cough* Nimblewright *cough*) from getting too broken; without it, things like the Nimblewright go from being powerful to just plain absurd. I like VP/WP myself, but I houserule Star Wars elements like this back in when I use it.

I deal with sneak attack damage by reducing it to one point per die but applying the hit directly to wounds as for a critical hit. This is still Really Scary for just about anyone facing a rogue of equal level, but it keeps rogues from becoming Instant Death Machines. With this modification rogues tend to require about the same number of hits to bring down an enemy in VP/WP this way as they do in the normal HP system, and so it's still a very potent advantage given that the other classes all need more hits in VP/WP than normal.

I also have one slight modification that I make to critical hits and sneak attacks: they still usually negate damage reduction, but I add an epic feat which allows the target a Fortitude save (DC = 10 + damage dealt) to apply the target's DR normally. Without this, a high-level rogue with a plain nonmagical dagger could take down a god with one lucky strike. No. Just no. By making the feat epic, I restrict its use only to things which frankly should be powerful enough to be able to do something about it anyway, and I let PCs take it when and if they reach epic levels so they can benefit from it as much as their foes. Further, by tying the save DC to the damage dealt, high-damage strikes are more likely to pierce DR than strikes which only deal average damage, so stronger characters can overcome the problem.

Anyway, your concerns about VP/WP are valid, and they stem from the fact that their section in Unearthed Arcana was basically incomplete. But with a little thought, some careful houserules, and a copy of the Star Wars RPG, it can add a lot of fun to the game.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
3doorsfan 09-22-05, 12:50 PM	Doesnt it make for a tougher challenge at early levels ? i mean all those monstors will have more hits to take right? also how do you handle sneak attack damage? thanks for all your help
dirty_rez 09-22-05, 04:54 PM	actually, it seems to me that it would be harder at later levels... i mean, your WPs are equal to your current CON right? so even a beefed up fighter might have a 20 con ad mid levels... a critical hit from a CR 10 melle monster (even not multiplied) could easily kill someone.
BladeMage_1 09-22-05, 05:31 PM	It actually works quite well in the SWRPG, it sets the players straight on the fact that they are mortal and they can die fairly easily. Of course there is less combat in the SWRPG too. However from my understanding is that it is somtimes harmful in DnD, with a lot more combat most of the time and all. I would use the VP/WP system but not for DnD since Players are fighting a lot more, and if they get crited, they go bye bye. :D Although the HP system is more unrealistic. A high level fighter can get hit with a greataxe 10+ times and still be standing as normal as he would with full HP. It makes more sense to minus vitality points for hits and say "the Axe scraped your flesh, but otherwise causing no real harm."
Millennium 09-23-05, 12:55 AM	Low-level monsters do indeed have more hits to take, but most low-level monsters have low Con, and so it's usually not that much of an issue. After all, the characters also have many more hits they can withstand. Even a barbarian with Con 12 gets double the "HP" he would normally have, and Wizards with Con 12 literally quadruple their hit-taking capacity. A stat of 12 is above average, but not terribly much so. VP/WP fit better into the Star Wars system than it does into D&D, because the Star Wars system was built around it while D&D wasn't. For example, in the Star Wars system, effects like Improved Critical feat and the keen edge spell don't double your critical threat range; they only add 1 to it. This is needed to keep certain weapons or creatures (cough Nimblewright cough) from getting too broken; without it, things like the Nimblewright go from being powerful to just plain absurd. I like VP/WP myself, but I houserule Star Wars elements like this back in when I use it. I deal with sneak attack damage by reducing it to one point per die but applying the hit directly to wounds as for a critical hit. This is still Really Scary for just about anyone facing a rogue of equal level, but it keeps rogues from becoming Instant Death Machines. With this modification rogues tend to require about the same number of hits to bring down an enemy in VP/WP this way as they do in the normal HP system, and so it's still a very potent advantage given that the other classes all need more hits in VP/WP than normal. I also have one slight modification that I make to critical hits and sneak attacks: they still usually negate damage reduction, but I add an epic feat which allows the target a Fortitude save (DC = 10 + damage dealt) to apply the target's DR normally. Without this, a high-level rogue with a plain nonmagical dagger could take down a god with one lucky strike. No. Just no. By making the feat epic, I restrict its use only to things which frankly should be powerful enough to be able to do something about it anyway, and I let PCs take it when and if they reach epic levels so they can benefit from it as much as their foes. Further, by tying the save DC to the damage dealt, high-damage strikes are more likely to pierce DR than strikes which only deal average damage, so stronger characters can overcome the problem. Anyway, your concerns about VP/WP are valid, and they stem from the fact that their section in Unearthed Arcana was basically incomplete. But with a little thought, some careful houserules, and a copy of the Star Wars RPG, it can add a lot of fun to the game.