My crazy level-up attribute increase idea [Archive] - Wizards Community

My crazy level-up attribute increase idea [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DeathByRodent
08-15-07, 02:16 PM Slow day at work, so I came up with this. It probably is not a new idea, or maybe is too weird, but here goes…

The goal is to help out MAD classes a bit, and to provide a way for a player to eliminate a dump stat or get a real boost to a mediocre stat without hurting primary stat increases too much.

Reasoning – an 18 is effectively x4 better than a 12. Typical point buy rules has a 17/18 costing x3 that of anything <15. Yet at level-up attribute increase, it costs the same to bump an 18 to a 19 as it does a 10 to an 11.

Realism perspective – it is typically much easier to increase your strength by 20% if you can only bench press 100 lbs (20 lb increase) vs. 400 lbs (80 lb increase).

This also makes level up decisions harder and opens up other opportunities for players. It doesn’t help primary casters who just want to focus on bumping up their primary stat.

Here it is: If at level up, the attribute you want to increase is at...
18 or greater – no change to existing rule, increase by one.
11-17 – increase attribute by two instead of one.
7-10 – increase attribute by 3
6 or less – increase attribute by 4

Examples
Old New
6 10
7 10
8 11
9 12
10 13
11 13
12 14
13 15
14 16
15 17
16 18
17 19
18 19
19 20
20 Etc..

Note that only in the low attribute range do ability scores increase by more than +1.

Using the MAD paladin as an example – instead of just bumping one attribute (cha for example) 5 times for a +2 or +3 increase (20 bumped from 15), can instead bump it 3 times, probably getting a +2, but then can also improve str & con enough to get a +1 out of each.

A fighter or barbarian starting with an 8 wisdom and 17 str, who typically would have just bumped str to 22, now has the interesting choice of taking str to 20 (giving up one +1 there) and bumping wisdom to 13, turning a -1 will save into a +1.

The player could then even bump it again, and then multiclass into a decent cleric. This opens up some paths to character advancement later on that right now are closed once a player decides on attributes and class at creation. This is the part I like best about it.

A crazy part of it is, a character could focus on a low stat, taking it from a 8 to 18 by level 20 (8-11-13-15-17-18). But he does so at a significant sacrifice, as his primary stat doesn't move.

I haven't completely thought this through, so there may be some way this can be used that makes it game breaking.
Tequila_Sunrise
08-15-07, 06:22 PM Meh, if this is how the DM wanted things I'd roll with it, but I wouldn't use this rule as a DM. I don't feel obligated to help MAD classes and it adds a little more complication to the game that I don't need.
Vaelan
08-15-07, 08:44 PM Relatively inoffensive, arguably has merit, and has a clear intention behind it which the houserule actually addresses. A rarity among houserule threads!

I don't like the fact that it makes many ability scores equivalent once one point is put in (17->19, 18->19), but I don't see a way to avoid it.
DM Zoc
08-15-07, 09:44 PM I think a more "natural" way of doing this, assuming you were using point-buy to begin with, would be to let the point-values of the character increase by the amount it would normally take to increase the attribute that started at an 18. That's a poorly worded sentence, but here's how it would work.

A normal character starts with 25-points in a point-buy system. If that character had put an 18 in a stat, then increasing it from 18 to 19 at level 4 would be like increase the value of the character by 4 points (it's essentially a 29-point character now). Let the player spend those 4 points however he wants: increase a score from 8 to 12, increase a score from 14 to 16, increase a 16 to a 17 and a 9 to a 10, or increase four scores between 8 and 13 each by one.

At 8th level, the character point value would increase by another four, and at level 12 and 16 it would increase by 5 (corresponding to the increase of that original 18 from 20 to 21), and at level 20 the character would gain 6 points.

The main fault of my suggestion is that it cannot account for racial modifiers. It is inappropriate to remove racial modifiers once they are applied, yet not doing so would penalize players for playing a race with a bonus to their primary stat (half-orc fighters, for example, could not afford to increase their strength at level four).

Your proposal has merit, likewise, but it seems a bit... arbitrary. I am loathe to ever say 17 is a "low" value for a stat which deserves a bonus to improve (many would have 17 as their highest rolled stat). Likewise, that a stat could go from 6 (very much below average) to 10 (perfectly average in every way) without passing any value in between, seems kind of... unbelievable; even my idea wouldn't change that, though. Maybe I would alter my proposal to suggest that you could not increase a stat by more than one at a time.
Illithid_Tentacles
08-15-07, 10:05 PM Realism perspective – it is typically much easier to increase your strength by 20% if you can only bench press 100 lbs (20 lb increase) vs. 400 lbs (80 lb increase).

That's your problem right there. D&D is not real, nor does it attempt to be realistic. It's a game, let it be a game. The reason people play games is to get AWAY from reality for a while.
Sphyre
08-16-07, 01:01 AM Slow day at work, so I came up with this. It probably is not a new idea, or maybe is too weird, but here goes…

If you look in my sig, you'll notice my stat acquisition method.

If you want to lower the power of your method you could use the charts for my contingency points. I could see a variant being that whenever you reach your 4th level, you get a contingency point to spend. In the past I've used contingency points as quest rewards.
DeathByRodent
08-16-07, 01:02 AM Illithid - you're right, its a game and I didn't come up with this idea because of realism. Some people always ask "is that realistic" so in a house rule, if I can come up with some "realistic" reasoning, I try to just for those folks.

My real intent with any house rule is to improve and add some flavor to the game.

Vaelan - yea, I don't like the 17->19 jump... but every character example I've used this on, the end result wasn't "out-of-wack" or unbalanced.

DM Zoc - You're right, a 17 doesn't need a bonus - but it fit the theory behind the idea. A 6 to 10 jump is a bit hard to swallow, but I like the end result in each character I've tried it in, and it doesn't seem unbalancing. Your suggestion is very much the effect I was trying to achieve, just a different way.

I like your idea, here is a different spin on that:

The character earns an "attribute buy point" every level, and can spends them every fourth level and they spend like "point buy" points. So at level 4, a 17 could become an 18, AND a 13 become a 14 (total of 4 "point buy" points). Or an 18 becomes a 19 (4 points). Or an 8 becomes a 12 (4 points). Or a 12 becomes a 15 (4 points).

I think for that to work, it needs to be applied to the "pre-racial" adjusted score, just like at character creation. mmm... I'm kinda liking this approach. I need to experiment some with it. Maybe even consider that the player can spend them at any level they want, or save them to build them up for later. Something to think on....

A driving motivation for me is that I kinda dislike the current "increase any attribute by 1 every 4 level approach". I dislike that it favors mostly pumping one stat, and therefore favors min-maxing over a diverse character. I'd prefer a system that provides the opportunity for diverse character building/advancement or min/max, whichever the player prefers.

From a game perspective, I like the idea of giving players options and choices that are not always easy to make (rock-paper-scissors kind-a-thing). I like the idea of a player sweating over "do I pump that strength to 21 or turn my -1 will save into a +1 will save".

Thanks for the responses!

Sphyre - thanks for the response. You've got some great ideas on stats. I'm going to have to get smart on them.
Vaelan
08-16-07, 05:18 PM Vaelan - yea, I don't like the 17->19 jump... but every character example I've used this on, the end result wasn't "out-of-wack" or unbalanced.
It is really just minor. Overall, I like the idea and am considering using it in my low-magic game, in which ability score increases are gained much more often.
Tequila_Sunrise
08-17-07, 03:34 PM The character earns an "attribute buy point" every level, and can spends them every fourth level and they spend like "point buy" points. So at level 4, a 17 could become an 18, AND a 13 become a 14 (total of 4 "point buy" points). Or an 18 becomes a 19 (4 points). Or an 8 becomes a 12 (4 points). Or a 12 becomes a 15 (4 points).

Why restrict point alotment to every fourth level? If a second level character wants to raise their 8 Wis to a 9, why should they wait until 4th?
DeathByRodent
08-17-07, 04:30 PM Good point Tequila I thought the same thing after posting that.

I am leaning hard toward that system now. Each character gets 1 point per level to spend on attribute increases and can save them up. The point cost to increase an attribute is the same as the most common point buy cost wiht 19's or greater costing 4:

<=14 costs 1 point
15 or 16, costs 2 points
17 or 18, costs 3 points
19 or greater costs 4 points.

Cost is determined on the pre-racially adjusted value.

It my examples builds, it really opens up choices though a character's advancement. One side effect is that it may enourage more min/max at character creation because this system allows the lower attributes to be pumped in a hurry, so I'm not sure how keen I am on that aspect.

But I really like the end result. I like anything that makes a character to be more about the character vs. gear (so my campaigns tend to have infrequent magic, but worthwhile).

Here's an example of why I like it:

Take a 28 point buy fighter: 17/14/13/12/8/8.

str 17
dex 12
con 14
int 13
wis 8
cha 8

Using the old system, there is really only one way I would have ever taken him, which is bump str to 22 by level 20. So after all that adventuring, the only stat changed is str, unless he buys others up.

Using this system, I'll have 20 pts to burn.

I can take str to 20 (cost 3+4+4=11 pts), dex to 16 (cost 6 pts), wis to 10 (cost 2 pts), int to 14 (1 pt), so his final stats are:

str 20
dex 16
con 14
int 14
wis 8
cha 8

Another approach would be bump wis and cha, finishing those at 12 each and having a -1 to +1 turn around in the appropriate skills/saves, instead of bumping dex.

I really like the RP opportunities that this allows a player to adapt to, such as where the character started with a low cha and found himself in a campaign where he is doing a lot more talking and leading and wants a higher cha. In the raw system, the cost to his fighting ability is too high to afford bumping his cha up.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DeathByRodent 08-15-07, 02:16 PM	Slow day at work, so I came up with this. It probably is not a new idea, or maybe is too weird, but here goes… The goal is to help out MAD classes a bit, and to provide a way for a player to eliminate a dump stat or get a real boost to a mediocre stat without hurting primary stat increases too much. Reasoning – an 18 is effectively x4 better than a 12. Typical point buy rules has a 17/18 costing x3 that of anything <15. Yet at level-up attribute increase, it costs the same to bump an 18 to a 19 as it does a 10 to an 11. Realism perspective – it is typically much easier to increase your strength by 20% if you can only bench press 100 lbs (20 lb increase) vs. 400 lbs (80 lb increase). This also makes level up decisions harder and opens up other opportunities for players. It doesn’t help primary casters who just want to focus on bumping up their primary stat. Here it is: If at level up, the attribute you want to increase is at... 18 or greater – no change to existing rule, increase by one. 11-17 – increase attribute by two instead of one. 7-10 – increase attribute by 3 6 or less – increase attribute by 4 Examples Old New 6 10 7 10 8 11 9 12 10 13 11 13 12 14 13 15 14 16 15 17 16 18 17 19 18 19 19 20 20 Etc.. Note that only in the low attribute range do ability scores increase by more than +1. Using the MAD paladin as an example – instead of just bumping one attribute (cha for example) 5 times for a +2 or +3 increase (20 bumped from 15), can instead bump it 3 times, probably getting a +2, but then can also improve str & con enough to get a +1 out of each. A fighter or barbarian starting with an 8 wisdom and 17 str, who typically would have just bumped str to 22, now has the interesting choice of taking str to 20 (giving up one +1 there) and bumping wisdom to 13, turning a -1 will save into a +1. The player could then even bump it again, and then multiclass into a decent cleric. This opens up some paths to character advancement later on that right now are closed once a player decides on attributes and class at creation. This is the part I like best about it. A crazy part of it is, a character could focus on a low stat, taking it from a 8 to 18 by level 20 (8-11-13-15-17-18). But he does so at a significant sacrifice, as his primary stat doesn't move. I haven't completely thought this through, so there may be some way this can be used that makes it game breaking.
Tequila_Sunrise 08-15-07, 06:22 PM	Meh, if this is how the DM wanted things I'd roll with it, but I wouldn't use this rule as a DM. I don't feel obligated to help MAD classes and it adds a little more complication to the game that I don't need.
Vaelan 08-15-07, 08:44 PM	Relatively inoffensive, arguably has merit, and has a clear intention behind it which the houserule actually addresses. A rarity among houserule threads! I don't like the fact that it makes many ability scores equivalent once one point is put in (17->19, 18->19), but I don't see a way to avoid it.
DM Zoc 08-15-07, 09:44 PM	I think a more "natural" way of doing this, assuming you were using point-buy to begin with, would be to let the point-values of the character increase by the amount it would normally take to increase the attribute that started at an 18. That's a poorly worded sentence, but here's how it would work. A normal character starts with 25-points in a point-buy system. If that character had put an 18 in a stat, then increasing it from 18 to 19 at level 4 would be like increase the value of the character by 4 points (it's essentially a 29-point character now). Let the player spend those 4 points however he wants: increase a score from 8 to 12, increase a score from 14 to 16, increase a 16 to a 17 and a 9 to a 10, or increase four scores between 8 and 13 each by one. At 8th level, the character point value would increase by another four, and at level 12 and 16 it would increase by 5 (corresponding to the increase of that original 18 from 20 to 21), and at level 20 the character would gain 6 points. The main fault of my suggestion is that it cannot account for racial modifiers. It is inappropriate to remove racial modifiers once they are applied, yet not doing so would penalize players for playing a race with a bonus to their primary stat (half-orc fighters, for example, could not afford to increase their strength at level four). Your proposal has merit, likewise, but it seems a bit... arbitrary. I am loathe to ever say 17 is a "low" value for a stat which deserves a bonus to improve (many would have 17 as their highest rolled stat). Likewise, that a stat could go from 6 (very much below average) to 10 (perfectly average in every way) without passing any value in between, seems kind of... unbelievable; even my idea wouldn't change that, though. Maybe I would alter my proposal to suggest that you could not increase a stat by more than one at a time.
Illithid_Tentacles 08-15-07, 10:05 PM	Realism perspective – it is typically much easier to increase your strength by 20% if you can only bench press 100 lbs (20 lb increase) vs. 400 lbs (80 lb increase). That's your problem right there. D&D is not real, nor does it attempt to be realistic. It's a game, let it be a game. The reason people play games is to get AWAY from reality for a while.
Sphyre 08-16-07, 01:01 AM	Slow day at work, so I came up with this. It probably is not a new idea, or maybe is too weird, but here goes… If you look in my sig, you'll notice my stat acquisition method. If you want to lower the power of your method you could use the charts for my contingency points. I could see a variant being that whenever you reach your 4th level, you get a contingency point to spend. In the past I've used contingency points as quest rewards.
DeathByRodent 08-16-07, 01:02 AM	Illithid - you're right, its a game and I didn't come up with this idea because of realism. Some people always ask "is that realistic" so in a house rule, if I can come up with some "realistic" reasoning, I try to just for those folks. My real intent with any house rule is to improve and add some flavor to the game. Vaelan - yea, I don't like the 17->19 jump... but every character example I've used this on, the end result wasn't "out-of-wack" or unbalanced. DM Zoc - You're right, a 17 doesn't need a bonus - but it fit the theory behind the idea. A 6 to 10 jump is a bit hard to swallow, but I like the end result in each character I've tried it in, and it doesn't seem unbalancing. Your suggestion is very much the effect I was trying to achieve, just a different way. I like your idea, here is a different spin on that: The character earns an "attribute buy point" every level, and can spends them every fourth level and they spend like "point buy" points. So at level 4, a 17 could become an 18, AND a 13 become a 14 (total of 4 "point buy" points). Or an 18 becomes a 19 (4 points). Or an 8 becomes a 12 (4 points). Or a 12 becomes a 15 (4 points). I think for that to work, it needs to be applied to the "pre-racial" adjusted score, just like at character creation. mmm... I'm kinda liking this approach. I need to experiment some with it. Maybe even consider that the player can spend them at any level they want, or save them to build them up for later. Something to think on.... A driving motivation for me is that I kinda dislike the current "increase any attribute by 1 every 4 level approach". I dislike that it favors mostly pumping one stat, and therefore favors min-maxing over a diverse character. I'd prefer a system that provides the opportunity for diverse character building/advancement or min/max, whichever the player prefers. From a game perspective, I like the idea of giving players options and choices that are not always easy to make (rock-paper-scissors kind-a-thing). I like the idea of a player sweating over "do I pump that strength to 21 or turn my -1 will save into a +1 will save". Thanks for the responses! Sphyre - thanks for the response. You've got some great ideas on stats. I'm going to have to get smart on them.
Vaelan 08-16-07, 05:18 PM	Vaelan - yea, I don't like the 17->19 jump... but every character example I've used this on, the end result wasn't "out-of-wack" or unbalanced. It is really just minor. Overall, I like the idea and am considering using it in my low-magic game, in which ability score increases are gained much more often.
Tequila_Sunrise 08-17-07, 03:34 PM	The character earns an "attribute buy point" every level, and can spends them every fourth level and they spend like "point buy" points. So at level 4, a 17 could become an 18, AND a 13 become a 14 (total of 4 "point buy" points). Or an 18 becomes a 19 (4 points). Or an 8 becomes a 12 (4 points). Or a 12 becomes a 15 (4 points). Why restrict point alotment to every fourth level? If a second level character wants to raise their 8 Wis to a 9, why should they wait until 4th?
DeathByRodent 08-17-07, 04:30 PM	Good point Tequila I thought the same thing after posting that. I am leaning hard toward that system now. Each character gets 1 point per level to spend on attribute increases and can save them up. The point cost to increase an attribute is the same as the most common point buy cost wiht 19's or greater costing 4: <=14 costs 1 point 15 or 16, costs 2 points 17 or 18, costs 3 points 19 or greater costs 4 points. Cost is determined on the pre-racially adjusted value. It my examples builds, it really opens up choices though a character's advancement. One side effect is that it may enourage more min/max at character creation because this system allows the lower attributes to be pumped in a hurry, so I'm not sure how keen I am on that aspect. But I really like the end result. I like anything that makes a character to be more about the character vs. gear (so my campaigns tend to have infrequent magic, but worthwhile). Here's an example of why I like it: Take a 28 point buy fighter: 17/14/13/12/8/8. str 17 dex 12 con 14 int 13 wis 8 cha 8 Using the old system, there is really only one way I would have ever taken him, which is bump str to 22 by level 20. So after all that adventuring, the only stat changed is str, unless he buys others up. Using this system, I'll have 20 pts to burn. I can take str to 20 (cost 3+4+4=11 pts), dex to 16 (cost 6 pts), wis to 10 (cost 2 pts), int to 14 (1 pt), so his final stats are: str 20 dex 16 con 14 int 14 wis 8 cha 8 Another approach would be bump wis and cha, finishing those at 12 each and having a -1 to +1 turn around in the appropriate skills/saves, instead of bumping dex. I really like the RP opportunities that this allows a player to adapt to, such as where the character started with a low cha and found himself in a campaign where he is doing a lot more talking and leading and wants a higher cha. In the raw system, the cost to his fighting ability is too high to afford bumping his cha up.