Post/Author/DateTime	Post
codexia 09-07-05, 09:50 PM	Yes, there is a lot here, but I'm trying to fix some things I consider broken (and annoying) and change around the systems a little bit to offer more spice or things like that. I start in about a week and a half, and just want to run things past people that have a LOT more experience then I do. Please, don't flame me. If something is really bad, offer constructive critisism...besides, it looks better then "Your rules are stuipid you @#$^ get a life!" Thanks =\ Oh, as a note: Thanks to whoever it was that came up with Masterwork Tiers...I forget who...but I borrowed/altered that concept a bit. Just tryin to give credit where credits due. Also, some ideas on what to do with wondrous items, wands, potions, and scrolls would be nice. Not sure what to do with them at all. Might just leave them as is...but...don't know if that would balance with the increased cost in magic weapons/armor. [edit 1] Changed out some prices, altered a couple of the base rules a bit. See what you think. Thanks for the responses so far, they are helping :) Still not sure what to do with scrolls, staves, wands, wondrous items, and the like though. ------ Sorcerer – no material components, random free moderate bloodline, can change out bloodline feats. Base Class – Level 1 of any base class other then one you started with at character creation (unless Sorcerer, Barbarian, or any other class from another book at DM discretion) requires training to take first level in. Medium Armor – Now has a base movement of 25 feet instead of 20. PrC Class – All PrC require training (unless GM decides otherwise) at first level and last level. You may only level one PrC at a time (unless GM decides otherwise). Rune Dice – After character creation, you may have a single roll on the Rune Dice (CC for my campaign) Deck of Many Things – Immune to magic of all forms Re-Rolls – 1 per adventure. Receive 50xp x level if you do not use yours. Class Bonus – Becoming level 10th or 20th level in base class and/or max level in a PrC yields class based rewards. Masterwork and Alchemy DC: 20 + 2/level Masterwork Tiers for Weapons Tier 1: +1 attack <2,000> Tier 2: +2 attack <4,000> Tier 3: +3 attack <8,000> Tier 4: +4 attack <16,000> Tier 5: +5 attack <32,000> Masterwork Tiers for Armor Tier 1: -1 Check Penalty <500> Tier 2: -2 Check Penalty <1,000> Tier 3: -3 Check Penalty <2,000> Tier 4: -4 Check Penalty <4,000> Tier 5: -5 Check Penalty <8,000> Mastercraft Tiers for Weapons Tier 1: +1 damage <1,000> Tier 2: +2 damage <3,000> Tier 3: +3 damage <6,000> Tier 4: +4 damage <12,000> Tier 5: +5 damage <24,000> Mastercraft Tiers for Armor Tier 1: +1 AC <1,000> Tier 2: +2 AC <2,000> Tier 3: +3 AC <4,000> Tier 4: +4 AC <8,000> Tier 5: +5 AC <16,000> Slots in Weapons cost 1,000 per level. Armor is 500 per level. Slots can only be placed into a weapon or armor with a craft rating equal to or higher then the enchantment slot. (A slot for +1 enchantments would need a Work/Craft of +1/+1). Once a slot is filled with an orb, the enhancement from crafting is gone until the orb is removed. Magical orbs can be removed and inserted into other items without repurchasing the orb. Orbs can only be placed in one type of slot. Orbs designed for weapons are round. Orbs designed for armor are square. Wondrous items do not contain orbs, and cannot be interchanged. The powers of a slot will not stack (having two +1 orbs doesn't work). Also, different sized weapons or armor have a different number of slots. Light weapons have room for 1, simple 2, martial 3, and two-handed 4. Ranged weapons have room for two, as well as one on your quiver. Exotic weapons vary depending on size. Light shields have room for 1, medium 2, and tower 3. Light armor is 1, medium 2, heavy 3. Alchemical Items: Can be placed in a +1 slot. These function as magical items, except that they do not remove the +1/+1 granted by your crafted weapons. You can only have one alchemical orb in an item at a time. Alchemical orbs cost 1,000 gold pieces, and require a DC 25 alchemy check to create. Ask the DM for specifics if you want an alchemical version of a weapon or armor enchantment. Chances for finding orbs in items: 1-90% - No slots 91-94 – 1 slot 95-97 – 2 slots 98-99 – 3 slots 100 – 4 slots Chances for type of slot: 1-90% - +1 91-94 – +2 95-97 – +3 98-99 – +4 100 – +5 Chance for filled slot: 1-79 – No 80-85 - Alchemical 86-90% - +1 91-94 – +2 95-97 – +3 98-99 – +4 100 – +5 When pricing a weapon or armor, you add it's Masterwork cost + Mastercraft cost + slots. (Example: Long Sword + Masterwork T2 + Mastercraft T1 + (+1) Slot x1 = 3,015 gold) 15 1,000 1,000 1,000 True Magical Items: Some items are truly magical, and have no slots. These items are double the normal cost. The reason being that an item with orbs in it does not count as a magical item (the orbs do though) so they will not bypass damage reduction. Damage reduction is more powerful in this world, since it is now harder to bypass. To create a true magic item, you must have that item specially prepared. To prepare a weapon costs 2,000 gold, 1,000 for armor. Preparing a weapon does not give it any benefits. Once prepared, you can pay to have the weapon or armor enchanted. You are not required to make your weapon +1 before enchanting. True magical items in this game bypass damage reduction normally.
Endarire 09-08-05, 02:20 AM	I believe that classes are sets of related abilities, not straightjackets. If all PrCs in your game are organizational, there must be some logical reason why a character would be able and willing to join it, and there should be logical consequences for leaving it. If you earnestly wanted to be all you could in life, why would you not "do what it takes" to achieve that goal, even if it meant having a different class at each level? While swashbucklers as a class are most traditionally associated with seafaring, they are nimble melee combatants who emphasize finessable weapons. -EE
Korimyr the Rat 09-08-05, 04:26 AM	Sorcerer – no material components, random free major bloodline, can change out bloodline feats. That's a pretty big boost in power. If you made it a random minor bloodline, it'd probably work better-- and it'd also include all of the dragons. You could probably get away with moderate (ruling out ogres and other non-magical creatures), but you'd need to give something up. Medium Armor – Now has a base movement of 25 feet instead of 20. Not a bad change-- might make more characters actually bother with it. How do you handle it for Small races, though? PrC Class – All PrC require training (unless GM decides otherwise) at first level and last level. You may only level one PrC at a time (unless GM decides otherwise). This fits in with your training rule for base classes (which I disagree with, but that's a matter of taste)... but why last level? The 10th level in a Prestige Class seems like the most natural thing in the world to me. Class Bonus – Becoming level 10th or 20th level in base class and/or max level in a PrC yields class based rewards. Depending on the rewards, this might be cool. I take it you have a strong preference for single-classed characters? Left the magic item stuff alone-- I handle things entirely differently, so I wouldn't have much perspective.
lostone 09-08-05, 07:43 AM	I personally would swap the prices on attack and damage for weapons. As anyone who has played a power attacker knows, +1 attack = +2 (or more) damage. For Frenzied Berserkers, +1 attack = +4 damage. And for anyone not playing a power attacker, you can't do ANY damage if you can't hit your opponent, so being able to hit more is worth more money than being able to hit harder.
Phantom Lord 09-08-05, 09:41 AM	Oh, as a note: Thanks to whoever it was that came up with Masterwork Tiers...I forget who...but I borrowed/altered that concept a bit. Just tryin to give credit where credits due. I won't take claim for it, but it has been floating around my houserules for over a year now. I recently posted another thread entitled "MasterForged Arms and Armor, Revisited" which described my system. Sorcerer – no material components, random free major bloodline, can change out bloodline feats. Broken. Instead, try no 'random free major bloodline' and substituting XP for material components - at the rate of 1 XP per 10 GP. Base Class – Level 1 of any base class other then one you started with at character creation (unless Sorcerer, Barbarian, or any other class from another book at DM discretion) requires training to take first level in. As far as this goes, it could be a good idea. How does a barbarian, for example, suddenly become a rogue? Or a druid? He needs to be taught the ropes, but that doesn't mean it should take much work (on the player's part) to get there, nor does it mean he should need massive down-time. Medium Armor – Now has a base movement of 25 feet instead of 20. I like it, but once again, how do you deal with small characters? PrC Class – All PrC require training (unless GM decides otherwise) at first level and last level. You may only level one PrC at a time (unless GM decides otherwise). The point of becoming the best at something (highest level) is, well, to be the best. What sort of training could someone give to 'the best' that would enable them to attain that last level? I wholeheartedly agree about first-level training, just not last-level. Re-Rolls – 1 per adventure. Receive 50xp x level if you do not use yours. I would not give any bonuses for not using it, but instead give a penalty of 10 XP * level^2. So for a 1st level character it would be 100 XP, for a 10th level it would be 1,000, for a 20th level it would be 4,000. Class Bonus – Becoming level 10th or 20th level in base class and/or max level in a PrC yields class based rewards. That should automatically be factored into the class structure. If you don't think it is (and I completely agree that it's not) you should look at some revised classes around the boards. Masterwork Tiers for Weapons Tier 1: +1 attack <500> Tier 2: +2 attack <1,000> Tier 3: +3 attack <2,000> Tier 4: +4 attack <4,000> Tier 5: +5 attack <8,000> Masterwork Tiers for Armor Tier 1: -1 Check Penalty <250> Tier 2: -2 Check Penalty <500> Tier 3: -3 Check Penalty <1,000> Tier 4: -4 Check Penalty <2,000> Tier 5: -5 Check Penalty <4,000> Mastercraft Tiers for Weapons Tier 1: +1 damage <1,000> Tier 2: +2 damage <2,000> Tier 3: +3 damage <4,000> Tier 4: +4 damage <8,000> Tier 5: +5 damage <16,000> Mastercraft Tiers for Armor Tier 1: +1 AC <500> Tier 2: +2 AC <1,000> Tier 3: +3 AC <2,000> Tier 4: +4 AC <4,000> Tier 5: +5 AC <8,000> Way too cheap. I would suggest double the prices listed here. I'll touch on the rest later.
codexia 09-08-05, 02:43 PM	I'll respond here and edit my primary post (probobly will take me 10 minutes after I post this, so give me a little bit if you see this message) Straightjackets, no...but it's a way to prevent people (two people in my group in particular) who love to level dip 1 here, 2 here, 4 here, and try to powergame their way to the top. Most of my players don't do that...so I have to stop them from doing it, since those two ruin the game for everybody else. Might just put some firm RP restrictions on PrC. The way I saw it was, if your in the middle of training something, why would somebody else start training you? You don't have the dedication to finish what you started afterall. I'll edit it though, see what happens. For Sorc's, the random major bloodline is to actually keep people willing to play Sorc to level 20. Right now, it's the only class in my games that nobody wants to play straight through. Minor bloodlines wont tempt anybody, theres just not enough there. Maybe moderate would be better though, every other level. Medium armor with small races...let me think. Medium races is 30/20 normally, so it's now 30/25. Small is...what? I've never actually used a small race before o.O or seen one used in my games. The last level for the PrC training isnt so much as training, as a ceremony of graduation :P With one final test against the master, of course. Yes, I do like single class characters, or single class / single PrC. I hate people who think they need 5+ classes to be strong =/ or take 5+ classes just to get all the nifty powers they want with no actual roleplaying reason. I'm going to be swapping prices a bit, thanks. Will be editing prices also. Nobody in my campaign will pay XP instead of gold :/ they are a buncha cheapskates, lol. To them, gold is how they keep score. As for class based rewards, i'm refering to items, not powers. Like a fighter who hits 10th level will be able to pick from a weapon or armor thats suited for their class, things like that. As for XP penalty o.O why would I give somebody a penalty because they didn't need to use their reroll Oh, as for what I meant earlier about gaining level 1 classes in base classes with the exception of barbarian, sorc, etc. I meant that other classes could multiclass into barbarian or sorc, since they dont require training...Sorc is innate, and Barbarian is, well...a barbarian.
Fargren 09-08-05, 03:25 PM	I believe ally our rules are quite nice, except the "just one PrC". A prestige class doesn't genrally nned more trainingthan a base class, it's jsut harder to start.You don't necesarily need anyone to trian you(except SOME PrCs, but I wont get into excpetion here). APrC is just a specialisation. And you can specialise a litle in many things, just you wont be as great in each as you would have been if you would have choosen just one. Just enforce roleplaying, and you'll be fine.
codexia 09-08-05, 03:58 PM	There's a lot of things open to speculation with my rules (hence why I asked for help) but the one thing I think i'm enforcing is the 1 PrC at a time. My players are just to infamous for powergaming with 2-3 levels per class to get every power and creating combinations which were not meant to be together. That, or i'm going to implement XP penalties similiar to classes. If you have more then one PrC thats to far apart...xp penalty time.
Elgonn 09-08-05, 04:37 PM	In addition to all the balance complaints so far I'd like to add: XP Debt – No XP loss occurs, instead you get debt which gets paid off as you gain xp. You cannot go below your level in this way. Functionally breaks item creation and spells with XP cost. This isn't balanced. There's a lot of things open to speculation with my rules (hence why I asked for help) but the one thing I think i'm enforcing is the 1 PrC at a time. My players are just to infamous for powergaming with 2-3 levels per class to get every power and creating combinations which were not meant to be together. Do they roleplay at all? Do the mechanics of the classes they are taking support their character's feel? Does the end result create the character they're trying to be? If you answered yes any of the questions they aren't a problem.
codexia 09-08-05, 07:26 PM	How does XP debt break magic item creation? Once they are in debt, they can't do anything else with their XP until they pay off the debt. I just don't want them to lose a level. If it's that bad, i'll remove it. And no, they almost never RP it. They just want the nifty powers. [edit] First post has been changed a bit to reflect all the stuff people have been suggesting.
Fargren 09-08-05, 07:49 PM	And no, they almost never RP it. They just want the nifty powers. That is the problem. State that a PrC must be roleplayed since before takling it, since your persanlity doesn't suddenly change when you take it. Don't allow a PrC that is not being roleplayed
codexia 09-08-05, 07:52 PM	That's what i'm going to be doing this time around...I hope they don't get to pissy about it. Also considering doing these as house rules: Critical Fumble – Same as critical hits now. If you roll a one, make another attack roll. If that one also misses, then your weapon takes the damage instead of the opponent. If you get hit with a critical, your armor takes damage equal to the damage of the opponents attack, before critical damage. Hardness/HP of weapon and armor applying of course. Considering I find it unrealistic that people wear the same suit of armor for a year and it never gets a scratch on it =/ Not sure if these are to extreme though, it's not like they happen very often...at least not in my games (people seem to have very bad luck rolling 20's)
Lina_Inverse 09-08-05, 08:44 PM	That's what i'm going to be doing this time around...I hope they don't get to pissy about it. Also considering doing these as house rules: Critical Fumble – Same as critical hits now. If you roll a one, make another attack roll. If that one also misses, then your weapon takes the damage instead of the opponent. If you get hit with a critical, your armor takes damage equal to the damage of the opponents attack, before critical damage. Hardness/HP of weapon and armor applying of course. Considering I find it unrealistic that people wear the same suit of armor for a year and it never gets a scratch on it =/ Not sure if these are to extreme though, it's not like they happen very often...at least not in my games (people seem to have very bad luck rolling 20's) so the fighters +10 sword of uberness breaks more often in his 20th level hands than a 10 year old kids hands?oh right and theres the breaking of weapons being fighters are there gear and all.
Fargren 09-08-05, 08:52 PM	so the fighters +10 sword of uberness breaks more often in his 20th level hands than a 10 year old kids hands?oh right and theres the breaking of weapons being fighters are there gear and all. No, since the second roll makes it unlikely that even if you roll a 1, you qill actually fumble. However, almost every 1 from a 10 year old is going to be a fumble. Lets see, level 20 warrior(assuming he hits wiht a five, normal against regular ACs at that levle if i'm not worng, but i could be since I've never played past levle 12):5 atacks=%35 of roling a one=%5,75 of damaging the sowrd in a round. Well, yes, the kid ahs a slightly minor chance of breaking his weapon....Around %4,75. However, you notice the differnece is really small. And he made 5 times the number of attacks.
codexia 09-08-05, 09:09 PM	=\ Ya don't have to be so sarcastic about it, so it was a bad idea...coulda just said so
Elgonn 09-08-05, 10:41 PM	How does XP debt break magic item creation? Once they are in debt, they can't do anything else with their XP until they pay off the debt. I just don't want them to lose a level. If it's that bad, i'll remove it. You already cannot lose a level due to either factor. Because you literally don't have the XP to spend. Just change your method so that "if your in debt" you cannot spend XP for spells and item creation. But that's only part of it really. Under normal circumstances they could lose a level and still do it if they chose but under yours they can artificially spend XP they haven't earned yet. Lets pretend a Wizard wants to increase his Int by 5 through wishes. He has to be able to spend 25k XP all at once which means without refusing to level you won't even have that much possible to spend until 25th level. It would be advantageous to hit level 17 and blow 25k XP you haven't earned yet for 5 Int. Also 3.5 has a specific methodolgy for handing out XP rewards to a party that has members of different levels. This makes is so people who are behind actually get caught up (eventually). Under your method it doesn't happen because being in debt won't ever grant them extra XP. They'll be down XP just like a normal person might be from be raised but the one that deleveled because of it will actually come out ahead on XP gain over the next few sessions. Losing a level isn't inherently bad. It works in the system well. I've even known people who have had it change their character so they leveled in something different when they got back to their previous level. I don't see any advantage to this.
Korimyr the Rat 09-09-05, 01:38 AM	If you're going to use Critical Fumbles, I'd suggest something less drastic-- for instance, if you roll a 1 and then miss the confirmation roll, you lose your next Move Action. That's how I keep track of ammunition-- takes a Move to reload, or a Move to restring your bow, and so forth. In melee, it just means you're out of position, or you're off-balance, or so forth.
codexia 09-09-05, 06:52 PM	*gets ridda the xp debt thing* Move action might be better...I never really liked the "traditional" houserule of dropping your weapon. Just doesn't seem right, lol.
Fargren 09-09-05, 09:34 PM	You may also try generating an AoO if you fumble. It works often, excpet for ranged weapons. For ranged weapons, yu could lose a move action.
codexia 09-10-05, 12:10 AM	I was considering the AoO actualy...but then realized how fatal that could be for a fighter in combat with several people. Anyway, I think, for the most part, my houserules are done. What I need now is for somebody to help with the magic items part. Does it seem balanced? Altering the rules for magic items wasn't something I was originaly going to do, but it seems like a good system...I may just go back to the default one.
Jaaz 09-10-05, 04:49 AM	Interesting take on things, but let's go for the most obvious overlap/miss point. The powers of a slot will not stack (having two +1 orbs doesn't work). Also, different sized weapons or armor have a different number of slots. Light weapons have room for 1, simple 2, martial 3, and two-handed 4. Ranged weapons have room for two, as well as one on your quiver. Exotic weapons vary depending on size. Light shields have room for 1, medium 2, and tower 3. Light armor is 1, medium 2, heavy 3. Emphasis mine. The big thing here is those are new arbitrary groupings, and more to the point overlap. How many slots does a Light Martial weapon have? Or is it that light weapons of all sorts have just 1 slot capacity, two handed weapons of all sorts have 4 slot capacity, and one handed simple and martial weapons have 2 and 3 respectively? I'd have it work on size/hand class alone. Light 1, One handed 2, Two handed 3. (though I don't know how powerful these orbs can tend to be, how they're used, etc) What about double weapons? Now that the ends have to carry seperate enchantments, will they also get a seperate set of slots? If not, it makse TWF more attractive, if so it makes double weapons more appealing than two-handed because you can fight with two different configurations. Also - ranged weapons shouldn't be grouped like that. IE, why can my throwing axe hold two orbs, when my buddy's heavy crossbow with over 10x the mass can only hold the same amount? I know the ranged weapons aren't grouped by size like they used to be, but you should split them a little further so questions like this don't suddenly pull the game to a halt. As for exotics - why should it depend on size? For instance, a two-bladed sword is little longer than a quarter staff, but will it have the same capacity for slots? A bastard sword is the same size class as a longsword, but only weildable as such with a feat from it being a hand and a half sword - What size is it for slot considerations? Could shurikens get slots? Throwing axes/daggers/etc? weapons as ammunition costing the same to get similar bonuses but costing more in the long run from lost/broken weapons etc. As for the not stacking, and enhancing weapon performance but not counting as magical, count all orbs as giving a Slotted bonus, won't stack with itself and isn't 'magic/psionic/silver/etc' on it's own so it will interface with the current DR better. Also, just as a point of note - from the sounds of it, a character could conceivably commissions a high mastercraft weapon with several slots. If I'm catching the drift right, some orbs will offer bonus damage or some such? If this is the case, DR is only harder to PIERCE, but overcoming it with sheer brute force seems easy with this setup. IMHO anyway..
Korimyr the Rat 09-10-05, 05:03 AM	I was considering the AoO actually...but then realized how fatal that could be for a fighter in combat with several people. I've actually considered it a few times, myself. It actually makes a good deal of sense for the Fighter engaged in melee with several competent opponents-- after all, that's a real quick way to end up dead in real life. D&D's supposed to be more heroic, but I've been thinking that with my other House Rules-- class defense, armor as DR, and so forth-- that it would mean that Fighters only had to worry about the fumble if they were facing comparable opponents. You could also use the confirmation roll at full BAB, instead of as the attack that missed. Takes away a lot of the factor of higher-level characters fumbling more often. (Or, if you left it in, it could be a tactical consideration-- do I want to take all of my attacks this round?)
codexia 09-10-05, 12:35 PM	Jaaz: Good point...maybe i'll just leave the magic system the way it is as far as enchanting goes...except use orbs and the new masterworks. Just don't limit the number of orbs based on size maybe. The basics to the orbs is simple enough I guess, you enchant the stone and insert it into the weapon. You can take the orb out later and put it into a new weapon. Interchangable magic items. It sounded like a neet idea originaly, but now i'm not so sure =/ Definately want to keep the Tiered masterwork though, since I find it strange in a fantasy world, there's only one masterwork, when there should be different levels of master skills. Korimyr: Might switch it to max attack...not sure. Making my players think is something I like to do, so them dropping lower and lower as they force themselves to make more and more swings could be dangerous. They get more tired afterall, how many times do you want to try and swing a Claymore in 6 seconds? :P It's very hard...I would be lucky to swing it twice without hitting the wrong thing. (We used to have a Claymore ^_^ was so fun to play with it. Till I almost cut my foot off...)
lostone 09-11-05, 07:37 AM	There's a lot of things open to speculation with my rules (hence why I asked for help) but the one thing I think i'm enforcing is the 1 PrC at a time. My players are just to infamous for powergaming with 2-3 levels per class to get every power and creating combinations which were not meant to be together.If it is roleplayed (which you said it is not), I have no problems with it. However my group isn't as in to optimization as yours seems to be. As long as the prestige classes together make sense for the character (IE two classes that offer similar philosophies and complimentary fighting styles for a monk) I would have no problem with it. However even if the requirements don't say it I would not allow something like a monk-oriented prestige class with a prestige class that is chaos oriented, lawful and chaotic don't mix, even if the prestige class requirements would.