My take on the class defense bonus [Archive] - Wizards Community

My take on the class defense bonus [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Patrick Draken-Korin
08-31-06, 06:36 PM What I wanted was a class defense bonus that stacked with wearing armor; a bonus that represents skill regardless of equipment:cool: .
I checked UA, D20 Modern, and Starwars, then looked on the net, but didn't like what little i found:( .
I quickly gave up and made my own system; thought I'd share it in case anyones worked along the same lines:) .
Level_ A___ B___ C___ D
1____ +0__ +1__ +2__ +2
2____ +1__ +1__ +2__ +3
3____ +1__ +2__ +2__ +3
4____ +1__ +2__ +3__ +3
5____ +2__ +2__ +3__ +4
6____ +2__ +3__ +3__ +4
7____ +2__ +3__ +4__ +4
8____ +3__ +3__ +4__ +5
9____ +3__ +4__ +4__ +5
10___ +3__ +4__ +5__ +5
11___ +4__ +4__ +5__ +6
12___ +4__ +5__ +5__ +6
13___ +4__ +5__ +6__ +6
14___ +5__ +5__ +6__ +7
15___ +5__ +6__ +6__ +7
16___ +5__ +6__ +7__ +7
17___ +6__ +6__ +7__ +8
18___ +6__ +7__ +7__ +8
19___ +6__ +7__ +8__ +8
20___ +7__ +7__ +8__ +9

Column A = 2/3 + 1/3 per following level) sorcerer & Wizard
Column B = 1-1/3 + 1/3 per following level) Bard, Cleric, Druid, Rogue
Column C = 2 + 1/3 per following level) Monk, Ranger, Paladin
Column D= 2-2/3 + 1/3 per following level) Barbarian, Fighter

This defense bonus is unnamed and is added to AC in addition to all other AC bonuses.
This defense bonus applies on touch attacks.
This defense bonus is halved when flatfooted.
----
Note; I rearranged the list of which classes get which column because the bonus acting separately from armor, the qualifying factor was different. Feel free to arange them however you like.
Wayside
08-31-06, 09:57 PM I wasn't much of a fan of the way the book did class defense bonus. Basing the amount off of your armor proficiency just doesn't sit right with me. I don't like how in your system a wizard, who has half the ability in combat a fighter does (base attack) only gets 2 points less in defense. I give my players half their base attack bonus as a dodge bonus to AC and then restrict how much of their defense bonus they get by their armor. Lightly armored people get 1/2 base attack, medium armored get 1/3, and heavily armored get 1/4. This system works out well for me mainly because i also use the armor as damage reduction variant.
Seerow
08-31-06, 11:20 PM 1) Wayside, in that case why would anyone in your game wear armor? I mean, you can wear full plate for DR8/- and 5 AC, or you can go completely unarmored and have 20 AC. 15 AC is FAR more useful than most DR.

2) I think the top two tiers should be switched. The Monk and Ranger really need the defense more than the Fighter, and the Barbarian shouldn't have that much defense anyway.

Then again, as Wayside pointed out, it's 1 point of difference....
Ranger REG
09-01-06, 03:51 AM What I wanted was a class defense bonus that stacked with wearing armor; a bonus that represents skill regardless of equipment:cool: .
I checked UA, D20 Modern, and Starwars, then looked on the net, but didn't like what little i found:(
:uh-huh:

What's wrong with d20 Modern other than a very low class defense bonus progression (compared to D&D)? In that game, armor do stack with class defense bonus.
Jerks
09-01-06, 04:13 AM In the game I run I use the following set-up

Class Defense = 1/2 BAB (rounded-down)

Of this bonus, 1/2 applies to flat-footed attacks. And 1/2 to touch.

Armor has a reduced AC value that stacks with class defense up to a point.

Armor also have a Max Class Defense value (much like the max Dex bonus) that can be stacked.

Armor also has DR (about 1/2 normal AC value).

It works out that young and inexperience warriors get the most benefit from armor. Full BAB classes may reach levels in which they have tough choices to make. Lose a few points of AC for DR, or go it without the DR the armor provides.

This is of course exactly what I was aiming for.
Patrick Draken-Korin
09-03-06, 05:36 PM I didn't just take the d20 modern rules because, first of all, I didn't think that the 6 modern classes meshed with the eleven to 40 or so D&D classes, as well as the fact that there was no middle-point between fast hero and the strong/tough/dedicated hereos. Rather than create a middle point between the two, i just made my own system.

Second of all, the d20 modern system is very much like the armor grants AC and DR, as suggested in UA, on page 111. I wanted an armor bonus that is added to the AC of PHB armor; not a major bonus or a replacement, but something for higher power games to set the high-level PC's further aprat from the lower-level NPC's.

Basing a class defense bonus off of bab isn't a bad idea; i just prefer to separate the two, allowing the cleric to have a different bonus than the monk.

2) I think the top two tiers should be switched. The Monk and Ranger really need the defense more than the Fighter, and the Barbarian shouldn't have that much defense anyway.

Really? Hmm. I haven't implemented this idea for long, so I haven't even seen it applied to bard, ranger, barbarian and sorcerer.

Maybe I'll rearange it as follows:
Column A = 2/3 + 1/3 per following level) Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard
Column B = 1-1/3 + 1/3 per following level) Cleric, Druid, Rogue
Column C = 2 + 1/3 per following level) Barbarian, Paladin
Column D= 2-2/3 + 1/3 per following level) Fighter, Monk, Ranger

The only one who'll notice is the monk.. I'll have to see what the player says, at least in campaign.
------
Jerks; that's a complex system. I like it. If it weren't based on bab, then I might've copied it outright; as is, I might add a max class defense bonus to my own armor. I'll have to think about it.
Ranger REG
09-04-06, 03:57 AM I didn't just take the d20 modern rules because, first of all, I didn't think that the 6 modern classes meshed with the eleven to 40 or so D&D classes, as well as the fact that there was no middle-point between fast hero and the strong/tough/dedicated hereos. Rather than create a middle point between the two, i just made my own system.
Understandable.

Second of all, the d20 modern system is very much like the armor grants AC and DR, as suggested in UA, on page 111.
Incorrect. That additional number (+1,+2,+3) are still armor bonus to Defense ... if you're NOT PROFICIENT with the armor. Use that lower number if you do not have the appropriate armor proficiency feat.

I wanted an armor bonus that is added to the AC of PHB armor; not a major bonus or a replacement, but something for higher power games to set the high-level PC's further aprat from the lower-level NPC's.
I re-iterate, d20 Modern armor stack with class defense bonus.
Patrick Draken-Korin
09-04-06, 12:40 PM Heh. You know, I'm really not sure where I got that idea then. Oh, well. that's what working from memory can do.

I must have made some connection that since starwars uses full armor = DR, then the lower tech d20 modern based things off the armor = AC & DR. Or something. maybe it was a houserule? Eh, whatever.

Thanks for point that out anyway.
Ranger REG
09-04-06, 06:21 PM Heh. You know, I'm really not sure where I got that idea then. Oh, well. that's what working from memory can do.
Better to reference from the Modern System Reference Documents found HERE (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd).

I must have made some connection that since starwars uses full armor = DR, then the lower tech d20 modern based things off the armor = AC & DR. Or something. maybe it was a houserule? Eh, whatever.
It was the new Unearthed Arcana book that first introduced the new armor as AC & DR stats rule. That's what I now implemented into my own d20 Modern games as a houserule, simply because my players are p'ed off they're getting seriously injured by grenades (armor don't apply toward saving throws).

Not that they shouldn't be excessively harmed. I guess data from lab testing don't usually match with data from practical application.
Patrick Draken-Korin
09-05-06, 12:06 AM Thanks for the refrence, but I actually have the core books not 2ft from my home computer :embarrass (where I've been for the last two days). I just assumed I knew what i was talking about, hence working from memory.

I'd add armor = AC & DR to d20 modern every time; it just fits the feel of the system to me. No supprise I made that mistake earlier really:rolleyes: .
Seerow
09-05-06, 12:23 AM On a totally and completely unrelated note: Feist's books are awesome.
Thelon Fairblade
09-05-06, 08:50 AM I would switch up the "per level" progression. If the only difference between "really good" and "really bad" is 2 points, at all levels... who cares? Make it progress at different speeds, like saves. I.e. at the very least, the best gets 1/2 progression, the worst gets 1/3.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Patrick Draken-Korin 08-31-06, 06:36 PM	What I wanted was a class defense bonus that stacked with wearing armor; a bonus that represents skill regardless of equipment:cool: . I checked UA, D20 Modern, and Starwars, then looked on the net, but didn't like what little i found:( . I quickly gave up and made my own system; thought I'd share it in case anyones worked along the same lines:) . Level_ A___ B___ C___ D 1____ +0__ +1__ +2__ +2 2____ +1__ +1__ +2__ +3 3____ +1__ +2__ +2__ +3 4____ +1__ +2__ +3__ +3 5____ +2__ +2__ +3__ +4 6____ +2__ +3__ +3__ +4 7____ +2__ +3__ +4__ +4 8____ +3__ +3__ +4__ +5 9____ +3__ +4__ +4__ +5 10___ +3__ +4__ +5__ +5 11___ +4__ +4__ +5__ +6 12___ +4__ +5__ +5__ +6 13___ +4__ +5__ +6__ +6 14___ +5__ +5__ +6__ +7 15___ +5__ +6__ +6__ +7 16___ +5__ +6__ +7__ +7 17___ +6__ +6__ +7__ +8 18___ +6__ +7__ +7__ +8 19___ +6__ +7__ +8__ +8 20___ +7__ +7__ +8__ +9 Column A = 2/3 + 1/3 per following level) sorcerer & Wizard Column B = 1-1/3 + 1/3 per following level) Bard, Cleric, Druid, Rogue Column C = 2 + 1/3 per following level) Monk, Ranger, Paladin Column D= 2-2/3 + 1/3 per following level) Barbarian, Fighter This defense bonus is unnamed and is added to AC in addition to all other AC bonuses. This defense bonus applies on touch attacks. This defense bonus is halved when flatfooted. ---- Note; I rearranged the list of which classes get which column because the bonus acting separately from armor, the qualifying factor was different. Feel free to arange them however you like.
Wayside 08-31-06, 09:57 PM	I wasn't much of a fan of the way the book did class defense bonus. Basing the amount off of your armor proficiency just doesn't sit right with me. I don't like how in your system a wizard, who has half the ability in combat a fighter does (base attack) only gets 2 points less in defense. I give my players half their base attack bonus as a dodge bonus to AC and then restrict how much of their defense bonus they get by their armor. Lightly armored people get 1/2 base attack, medium armored get 1/3, and heavily armored get 1/4. This system works out well for me mainly because i also use the armor as damage reduction variant.
Seerow 08-31-06, 11:20 PM	1) Wayside, in that case why would anyone in your game wear armor? I mean, you can wear full plate for DR8/- and 5 AC, or you can go completely unarmored and have 20 AC. 15 AC is FAR more useful than most DR. 2) I think the top two tiers should be switched. The Monk and Ranger really need the defense more than the Fighter, and the Barbarian shouldn't have that much defense anyway. Then again, as Wayside pointed out, it's 1 point of difference....
Ranger REG 09-01-06, 03:51 AM	What I wanted was a class defense bonus that stacked with wearing armor; a bonus that represents skill regardless of equipment:cool: . I checked UA, D20 Modern, and Starwars, then looked on the net, but didn't like what little i found:( :uh-huh: What's wrong with d20 Modern other than a very low class defense bonus progression (compared to D&D)? In that game, armor do stack with class defense bonus.
Jerks 09-01-06, 04:13 AM	In the game I run I use the following set-up Class Defense = 1/2 BAB (rounded-down) Of this bonus, 1/2 applies to flat-footed attacks. And 1/2 to touch. Armor has a reduced AC value that stacks with class defense up to a point. Armor also have a Max Class Defense value (much like the max Dex bonus) that can be stacked. Armor also has DR (about 1/2 normal AC value). It works out that young and inexperience warriors get the most benefit from armor. Full BAB classes may reach levels in which they have tough choices to make. Lose a few points of AC for DR, or go it without the DR the armor provides. This is of course exactly what I was aiming for.
Patrick Draken-Korin 09-03-06, 05:36 PM	I didn't just take the d20 modern rules because, first of all, I didn't think that the 6 modern classes meshed with the eleven to 40 or so D&D classes, as well as the fact that there was no middle-point between fast hero and the strong/tough/dedicated hereos. Rather than create a middle point between the two, i just made my own system. Second of all, the d20 modern system is very much like the armor grants AC and DR, as suggested in UA, on page 111. I wanted an armor bonus that is added to the AC of PHB armor; not a major bonus or a replacement, but something for higher power games to set the high-level PC's further aprat from the lower-level NPC's. Basing a class defense bonus off of bab isn't a bad idea; i just prefer to separate the two, allowing the cleric to have a different bonus than the monk. 2) I think the top two tiers should be switched. The Monk and Ranger really need the defense more than the Fighter, and the Barbarian shouldn't have that much defense anyway. Really? Hmm. I haven't implemented this idea for long, so I haven't even seen it applied to bard, ranger, barbarian and sorcerer. Maybe I'll rearange it as follows: Column A = 2/3 + 1/3 per following level) Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard Column B = 1-1/3 + 1/3 per following level) Cleric, Druid, Rogue Column C = 2 + 1/3 per following level) Barbarian, Paladin Column D= 2-2/3 + 1/3 per following level) Fighter, Monk, Ranger The only one who'll notice is the monk.. I'll have to see what the player says, at least in campaign. ------ Jerks; that's a complex system. I like it. If it weren't based on bab, then I might've copied it outright; as is, I might add a max class defense bonus to my own armor. I'll have to think about it.
Ranger REG 09-04-06, 03:57 AM	I didn't just take the d20 modern rules because, first of all, I didn't think that the 6 modern classes meshed with the eleven to 40 or so D&D classes, as well as the fact that there was no middle-point between fast hero and the strong/tough/dedicated hereos. Rather than create a middle point between the two, i just made my own system. Understandable. Second of all, the d20 modern system is very much like the armor grants AC and DR, as suggested in UA, on page 111. Incorrect. That additional number (+1,+2,+3) are still armor bonus to Defense ... if you're NOT PROFICIENT with the armor. Use that lower number if you do not have the appropriate armor proficiency feat. I wanted an armor bonus that is added to the AC of PHB armor; not a major bonus or a replacement, but something for higher power games to set the high-level PC's further aprat from the lower-level NPC's. I re-iterate, d20 Modern armor stack with class defense bonus.
Patrick Draken-Korin 09-04-06, 12:40 PM	Heh. You know, I'm really not sure where I got that idea then. Oh, well. that's what working from memory can do. I must have made some connection that since starwars uses full armor = DR, then the lower tech d20 modern based things off the armor = AC & DR. Or something. maybe it was a houserule? Eh, whatever. Thanks for point that out anyway.
Ranger REG 09-04-06, 06:21 PM	Heh. You know, I'm really not sure where I got that idea then. Oh, well. that's what working from memory can do. Better to reference from the Modern System Reference Documents found HERE (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd). I must have made some connection that since starwars uses full armor = DR, then the lower tech d20 modern based things off the armor = AC & DR. Or something. maybe it was a houserule? Eh, whatever. It was the new Unearthed Arcana book that first introduced the new armor as AC & DR stats rule. That's what I now implemented into my own d20 Modern games as a houserule, simply because my players are p'ed off they're getting seriously injured by grenades (armor don't apply toward saving throws). Not that they shouldn't be excessively harmed. I guess data from lab testing don't usually match with data from practical application.
Patrick Draken-Korin 09-05-06, 12:06 AM	Thanks for the refrence, but I actually have the core books not 2ft from my home computer :embarrass (where I've been for the last two days). I just assumed I knew what i was talking about, hence working from memory. I'd add armor = AC & DR to d20 modern every time; it just fits the feel of the system to me. No supprise I made that mistake earlier really:rolleyes: .
Seerow 09-05-06, 12:23 AM	On a totally and completely unrelated note: Feist's books are awesome.
Thelon Fairblade 09-05-06, 08:50 AM	I would switch up the "per level" progression. If the only difference between "really good" and "really bad" is 2 points, at all levels... who cares? Make it progress at different speeds, like saves. I.e. at the very least, the best gets 1/2 progression, the worst gets 1/3.