Natural 1's/20's not automatic failure/success [Archive] - Wizards Community

Natural 1's/20's not automatic failure/success [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Eliza_Stormwhisper
11-27-05, 04:46 AM I really think this rule is irrelevant. If the PC's ever find themselves in a situation where they roll a natural 20, add modifiers, and still fail, or roll a natural 1, add modifiers, and still succeed, there's something wrong (with a few exceptions here and there).
Gilean
11-27-05, 04:56 AM Many monsters (e.g. monstrous bugs) have quite low ACs.

One thing the rule gives is that high-AC characters can't simply walk in the middle of a battlefield with no chance of being hit. From simulationist PoV, of course.

That said, removing them wouldn't break anything.
Tyler Do'Urden
11-27-05, 09:34 AM Dungeon Master's Guide p. 25, sidebar
VARIANT: AUTOMATIC HITS AND MISSES
The Player's Handbook says that an attack roll of natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) is always a miss. A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit.
This rule means that the lowlist kobold can strike the most magically protected, armored, dexterous character on a roll of 20. It also means that regardless of a warrior's training, experience, and magical assistance, he still misses a given foe at least 5% of the time.
A different way to handle this is to say that a natural 1 is treated as a roll of -10. Someone with an attack bonus of +6 nets a -4 result, which can't hit anything. Someone with a +23 attack bonus rolling a 1 would hit AC 13 or lower. At the other extreme, a natural 20 is treated as a roll of 30. Even someone with a -2 attack penalty would hit AC 20 with such a roll.Or better yet, Epic Level Handbook p. 110, Variant Rules
VARIANT: OPEN-ENDED ROLLS
When characters reach epic levels, the rule that natural 1s always fail and natural 20s always succeed can lead to frustrating results. The Dungeon Master's Guide presents one option that can help alleviate this situation: Using the Automatic Hits and Misses variant in Chapter 3, a natural 1 is treated as a roll of -10 and a natural 20 becomes a roll of 30. But this just delays the problem. Eventually, even a -10 will hit anything, or a 30 can't land a hit. The open-ended roll presents another option. Whenever you roll a natural 1 on an attack roll, a saving throw, a skill check, or an ability check, roll again and subtract 20 from the new result. Thus if an epic fighter swung his sword at a frost giant and rolled a natural 1, he would then roll a second time and subtract 20 from the second roll to determine his result. If you roll a natural 1 on the second roll, roll again and subtract 40, and so on, subtracting 20 each time a natural 1 is rolled.
On the other end, any time you roll a natural 20, roll again and add 20 to the new result. Thus if the same frost giant were exposed to a meteor swarm from an epic wizard and rolled a natural 20 on his Reflex saving throw, he would roll again and add 20 to the new result. As with the natural 1 if a natural 20 is rolled on the second roll, you would roll a third time and add 40 to the result, and so on.
A natural 20 on an attack roll still threatens a critical hit as normal, and the confirmation roll is made separately from any additional rolls made to determine the outcome of the initial attack.
Because this variant reduces the likelihood of creatures getting an automatic success or failure, it generally favors the PCs as does any element that reduces random chance in the game).
So yeah, it's been done.
RaspK FOG
11-27-05, 09:49 AM Are you referring to the nat20 = +30 and nat1 = -10 rules? I actually quite like them, using a veriant critical hit system which deals a critical only when you actually surpass the target's Defence by more than some amount of number or other...
Shike
11-30-05, 08:56 PM Actually, what I do is for skills and saves, nat 20's explode, as i you roll it again. For nat 1's, you roll again and then subtract that from your modifier. For attacks, i've actually kept it the same, because rolling a 1 is that rare chance that you've slipped up/lost concentration etc.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer
11-30-05, 10:28 PM Yeah, I hate automatic Failure or Success. It means that you don't benefit from a good AC and that you will lose Saves that you deserve to make.

I like and use the Epic Level Handbook Variant Rule.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eliza_Stormwhisper 11-27-05, 04:46 AM	I really think this rule is irrelevant. If the PC's ever find themselves in a situation where they roll a natural 20, add modifiers, and still fail, or roll a natural 1, add modifiers, and still succeed, there's something wrong (with a few exceptions here and there).
Gilean 11-27-05, 04:56 AM	Many monsters (e.g. monstrous bugs) have quite low ACs. One thing the rule gives is that high-AC characters can't simply walk in the middle of a battlefield with no chance of being hit. From simulationist PoV, of course. That said, removing them wouldn't break anything.
Tyler Do'Urden 11-27-05, 09:34 AM	Dungeon Master's Guide p. 25, sidebar VARIANT: AUTOMATIC HITS AND MISSES The Player's Handbook says that an attack roll of natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) is always a miss. A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit. This rule means that the lowlist kobold can strike the most magically protected, armored, dexterous character on a roll of 20. It also means that regardless of a warrior's training, experience, and magical assistance, he still misses a given foe at least 5% of the time. A different way to handle this is to say that a natural 1 is treated as a roll of -10. Someone with an attack bonus of +6 nets a -4 result, which can't hit anything. Someone with a +23 attack bonus rolling a 1 would hit AC 13 or lower. At the other extreme, a natural 20 is treated as a roll of 30. Even someone with a -2 attack penalty would hit AC 20 with such a roll.Or better yet, Epic Level Handbook p. 110, Variant Rules VARIANT: OPEN-ENDED ROLLS When characters reach epic levels, the rule that natural 1s always fail and natural 20s always succeed can lead to frustrating results. The Dungeon Master's Guide presents one option that can help alleviate this situation: Using the Automatic Hits and Misses variant in Chapter 3, a natural 1 is treated as a roll of -10 and a natural 20 becomes a roll of 30. But this just delays the problem. Eventually, even a -10 will hit anything, or a 30 can't land a hit. The open-ended roll presents another option. Whenever you roll a natural 1 on an attack roll, a saving throw, a skill check, or an ability check, roll again and subtract 20 from the new result. Thus if an epic fighter swung his sword at a frost giant and rolled a natural 1, he would then roll a second time and subtract 20 from the second roll to determine his result. If you roll a natural 1 on the second roll, roll again and subtract 40, and so on, subtracting 20 each time a natural 1 is rolled. On the other end, any time you roll a natural 20, roll again and add 20 to the new result. Thus if the same frost giant were exposed to a meteor swarm from an epic wizard and rolled a natural 20 on his Reflex saving throw, he would roll again and add 20 to the new result. As with the natural 1 if a natural 20 is rolled on the second roll, you would roll a third time and add 40 to the result, and so on. A natural 20 on an attack roll still threatens a critical hit as normal, and the confirmation roll is made separately from any additional rolls made to determine the outcome of the initial attack. Because this variant reduces the likelihood of creatures getting an automatic success or failure, it generally favors the PCs as does any element that reduces random chance in the game). So yeah, it's been done.
RaspK FOG 11-27-05, 09:49 AM	Are you referring to the nat20 = +30 and nat1 = -10 rules? I actually quite like them, using a veriant critical hit system which deals a critical only when you actually surpass the target's Defence by more than some amount of number or other...
Shike 11-30-05, 08:56 PM	Actually, what I do is for skills and saves, nat 20's explode, as i you roll it again. For nat 1's, you roll again and then subtract that from your modifier. For attacks, i've actually kept it the same, because rolling a 1 is that rare chance that you've slipped up/lost concentration etc.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 11-30-05, 10:28 PM	Yeah, I hate automatic Failure or Success. It means that you don't benefit from a good AC and that you will lose Saves that you deserve to make. I like and use the Epic Level Handbook Variant Rule.