Need brainstormers for a classification of archetypes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Need brainstormers for a classification of archetypes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sinaz
08-08-05, 07:13 PM I'm toying with a weird sort of concept and just needed some brainstorming help ...

I've broken down the Ability Scores into a sort of wheel with complimenting and analogous orientations... if that doesn't make sense... think of an ability score color wheel. The only ability score that doesn't fit into the wheel (by my own choice) is CHA... which I want to be the one truly random factor of the set up (trying to make it MUCH less of a throw-away stat.)

Anyway, here are some descriptions of archetypes... I need help naming them (i.e. - which one sounds the most like a fighter, rogue, magic user, etc?) Also, think outside the box. I'm not married to the core classes, and I don't particularly see a need for there to be, say... a wizard AND a sorcerer. If you have a better catch-all idea or name for an archetype, just tag it in... it's a brainstorm and I'll filter everything once I think I have some good material.

Here we go:

Analogous Archetypes

STRENGTH - complimented by Dex and Con, lacking Int and Wis
"A physical powerhouse with bolstering dexterity and resiliance, this archetype is well suited to melee, but also proficient with ranged attacks. Both athletic and acrobatic, his body has been honed to peak performance. His only weaknesses are his mental facilities. Underdeveloped, and not very intuitive, this archetype is, by no means, a scholar."

CONSTITUTION - complimented by Str and Wis, lacking Int and Dex
"This particular archetype is a paragon of inner strength. One might call it mind over matter, but he is particularly resiliant, ignoring pain and focusing on his task. His awareness compliments his physical might, which both seem to be powered by his will to succeed. He doesn't rely on book smarts at all and is not terribly careful about avoiding taking a hit or extending his reach in combat."

WISDOM - complimented by Int and Con, lacking Dex and Str
"This exacting individual epitomizes awareness, picking out detail and clues, then piecing it all together into knowledge through careful reasoning. This archetype boasts a powerful mind that might be able to accomplish more than is natural. Seeing his mind as the weapon it is, he spends little time developing his strength or speed, letting others take care of the more savage skills."

INTELLEGENCE - complimented by Dex and Wis, lacking Str and Con
"Smart, quick, and willful, this crafty individual is good with his hands - using them to facilitate the ends that he seeks. He is strong with his ideas, motivation and ability to reason. Unfortunately he lacks brawn and the ability to bounce back from injury, so close combat is not is forte."

DEXTERITY - complimented by Str and Int, lacking Wis and Con
"This spry devil is exceptionally quick to avoid a blade while fighting with the finesse and belying power to overcome many a larger foe. He makes great use of cunning and speed against the slower brute. One might say that he has tunnel vision though, more attune to escaping a fight than finding it. That and he lacks the endurance to stick to a fight til its end."

Complimentary Archetypes

STRENGTH - complimented by Int and Wis, lacking Dex and Con
"Strong, willful, and smart, this archetype focuses on a strategic edge in battle. He relies on his strength to carry him through trials that involve wit and awareness, plus a certain level of reasoning. He focuses on precise, calculated strikes and exploiting his opponents' weaknesses. Range, acrobatics, and stamina are the only disceplines he lacks."

CONSTITUTION - complimented by Dex and Int, lacking Str and Wis
"This one is all about outlasting his opponent. He can out wait any enemy, suffer more damage than any enemy, and can easily outwit any enemy. He learns patterns and attacks from afar. Lacking much brute force or the capacity to track, this cool and collected individual relies on learned intel to get things accomplished."

WISDOM - complimented by Str and Dex, lacking Int and Con
"Intuitive, and skilled both in close and ranged combat, this archetype prefers the hunt. He has keen senses, and a way with people. Remaining on the move is key, as he lacks the patience to sit and wait or study into obstacles - making his actions quick decisive instincts."

INTELLEGENCE - complimented by Str and Con, lacking Dex and Wis
"This archetype is a strategist at heart. He has a wealth of knowledge at his aid, and the ability to fight should someone challenege him. He has a focus that grants him a peculiar edge in spellcraft should he have to compliment his sword with the arcane. Ranged weapons aren't entirely in his vocabulary, nor is he able to take a more worldy view of things. Single minded, might be a good word to describe him."

DEXTERITY - complimented by Con and Wis, lacking Int and Str
"He's quick and nimble with the stamina and acute senses to keep him tirelessly on the move. He has little need for strength because his enemies can barely touch him... and even if they manage, he's quick to shake off the injury, dip into a blind spot, and leap back into action. He prefers, ultimately, to trust his instinct over his reason."

...ok... that's all I got. I'd like to get some feedback and some discussion, now.

There's essentially 10 archetypes here that may equate into classes... vs. the 11 core classes, I think this might be an interesting exercise in balancing them.

And thanks for any feedback, by the way.
Sinaz
08-09-05, 12:35 PM anybody? --Reposted in the classes subforum
Xeviat-DM
08-09-05, 04:27 PM Interesting. Are you wishing to use these as replacement classes, some sort of formula for generating ability scores, or what? I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish with this, maybe that's why you haven't gotten any replies just yet.
Sinaz
08-09-05, 04:36 PM I'm not sure what I'm doing... right now, I'm just trying to match up each 'archetype' with a class name... whether one thinks "hey, this seems more like a fighter, while this seems like a rogue" or "hey this is some sort of 'hunter'... call it... hunter!"

I think then I'm going to toy with the idea of using these archetypes to assign stats... or at least make them a foundation for further class redefinement.

Like I said... it's just brainstorming at the moment, and I'm looking for what classes these archetypes feel like.
Xeviat-DM
08-11-05, 04:04 AM Well, the difference between a high charisma and a low charisma seems to be the difference between a hero and a mercenary; but that's sort of a reputation thing. Either way, I'll take a shot at what you're looking for.

Analogous Archetypes

STRENGTH - complimented by Dex and Con, lacking Int and Wis
Brave

CONSTITUTION - complimented by Str and Wis, lacking Int and Dex
Tank

WISDOM - complimented by Int and Con, lacking Dex and Str
Investigator, Sage

INTELLEGENCE - complimented by Dex and Wis, lacking Str and Con

DEXTERITY - complimented by Str and Int, lacking Wis and Con
Tactician

Complimentary Archetypes

STRENGTH - complimented by Int and Wis, lacking Dex and Con

CONSTITUTION - complimented by Dex and Int, lacking Str and Wis

WISDOM - complimented by Str and Dex, lacking Int and Con

INTELLEGENCE - complimented by Str and Con, lacking Dex and Wis

DEXTERITY - complimented by Con and Wis, lacking Int and Str

I do say, you're going to have a pretty tough time doing anything with these, no offense. But I do have something of mine to show you that may get you thinking:

Str -> Cha
Dex -> Int
Con -> Wis

Strength is the power of your body, while charisma is your ability to influence the world around you with your mind (usually through words, or through magic).

Dexterity is the quickness of your body, while intelligence is your ability to quickly analyze the world around you.

Constitution is the toughness of your body, while intelligence is your ability to percieve the world and the toughness of your mind.
Lina_Inverse
08-11-05, 04:21 AM Well, the difference between a high charisma and a low charisma seems to be the difference between a hero and a mercenary; but that's sort of a reputation thing. Either way, I'll take a shot at what you're looking for.

I do say, you're going to have a pretty tough time doing anything with these, no offense. But I do have something of mine to show you that may get you thinking:

Str -> Cha
Dex -> Int
Con -> Wis

Strength is the power of your body, while charisma is your ability to influence the world around you with your mind (usually through words, or through magic).

Dexterity is the quickness of your body, while intelligence is your ability to quickly analyze the world around you.

Constitution is the toughness of your body, while intelligence is your ability to percieve the world and the toughness of your mind.

....how could you ruin the purity of it so much.
its
Str=int
Dex=wis
Con=cha
Gilean
08-11-05, 04:43 AM ....how could you ruin the purity of it so much.
its
Str=int
Dex=wis
Con=chaWhere did that come from? Dex and wis do have a connection, though a flimsy one, but others seem to be associated simply by the order they are found in th book. Charisma does not endure, for example.
Lina_Inverse
08-11-05, 05:10 AM Where did that come from? Dex and wis do have a connection, though a flimsy one, but others seem to be associated simply by the order they are found in th book. Charisma does not endure, for example.

astral plane from 2E.
replace str with int.
replace dex with wis.
it didnt mention con and cha,but we can now assume since cha has become a truly mental stat that its a weee bit stuck.
chock it up to a larger sense of self meaning its that much harder to shred your mind in half.
Gilean
08-11-05, 05:15 AM astral plane from 2E.
replace str with int.
replace dex with wis.
it didnt mention con and cha,but we can now assume since cha has become a truly mental stat that its a weee bit stuck.
chock it up to a larger sense of self meaning its that much harder to shred your mind in half.In that contect they do make a modicum of sense. But this is just substitution, not similarity.
Sinaz
08-11-05, 12:06 PM Well, the difference between a high charisma and a low charisma seems to be the difference between a hero and a mercenary; but that's sort of a reputation thing. Either way, I'll take a shot at what you're looking for.

I do say, you're going to have a pretty tough time doing anything with these, no offense. But I do have something of mine to show you that may get you thinking:

Str -> Cha
Dex -> Int
Con -> Wis

Strength is the power of your body, while charisma is your ability to influence the world around you with your mind (usually through words, or through magic).

Dexterity is the quickness of your body, while intelligence is your ability to quickly analyze the world around you.

Constitution is the toughness of your body, while intelligence is your ability to percieve the world and the toughness of your mind.

Well thought out.

I'll revise the archetypes with this... I can't believe I overlooked this simple yet viable comparison.

Thanks.
Sinaz
08-11-05, 01:54 PM I created a new pinwheel of attributes...

... can't post the wheel...

I summaraized them as opposing abilities for mental and physical power, toughness, and coordination.

The top half is physical and the bottom half mental.

This is a bit of a eureka, Xeviat... I have a custom magic system I'm working on, and this kind of opens up some doorways for balance.

...more thoughts...

Consider that STR controls melee attacks and damage, DEX controls range, and CON controls hitpoints and stamina...

What if CHA controlled touch magic and potentcy (damage), INT controlled the ability to cast ranged magic, and WIS controlled spell resistance (and saves) and hrmmm... I'm going with a mental hitpoint that I'll call consciousness.

Where am I going with this? I have no idea (lol).

But maybe consciousness and hitpoints could have a symbiotic connection that works like subdual damage and stuff.

...thinking thinking...
Xeviat-DM
08-11-05, 07:32 PM I use an MP system where all classes get a mana die, and your wisdom multiplier is added to the mana die at each level. Charisma determines your saving throw DC for all of your spells, and spell-like abilities. Int is needed for Spellcraft, which all casters find use for, and Int is the ability score used when making magical "attacks", such as telekinesis and a few others.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sinaz 08-08-05, 07:13 PM	I'm toying with a weird sort of concept and just needed some brainstorming help ... I've broken down the Ability Scores into a sort of wheel with complimenting and analogous orientations... if that doesn't make sense... think of an ability score color wheel. The only ability score that doesn't fit into the wheel (by my own choice) is CHA... which I want to be the one truly random factor of the set up (trying to make it MUCH less of a throw-away stat.) Anyway, here are some descriptions of archetypes... I need help naming them (i.e. - which one sounds the most like a fighter, rogue, magic user, etc?) Also, think outside the box. I'm not married to the core classes, and I don't particularly see a need for there to be, say... a wizard AND a sorcerer. If you have a better catch-all idea or name for an archetype, just tag it in... it's a brainstorm and I'll filter everything once I think I have some good material. Here we go: Analogous Archetypes STRENGTH - complimented by Dex and Con, lacking Int and Wis "A physical powerhouse with bolstering dexterity and resiliance, this archetype is well suited to melee, but also proficient with ranged attacks. Both athletic and acrobatic, his body has been honed to peak performance. His only weaknesses are his mental facilities. Underdeveloped, and not very intuitive, this archetype is, by no means, a scholar." CONSTITUTION - complimented by Str and Wis, lacking Int and Dex "This particular archetype is a paragon of inner strength. One might call it mind over matter, but he is particularly resiliant, ignoring pain and focusing on his task. His awareness compliments his physical might, which both seem to be powered by his will to succeed. He doesn't rely on book smarts at all and is not terribly careful about avoiding taking a hit or extending his reach in combat." WISDOM - complimented by Int and Con, lacking Dex and Str "This exacting individual epitomizes awareness, picking out detail and clues, then piecing it all together into knowledge through careful reasoning. This archetype boasts a powerful mind that might be able to accomplish more than is natural. Seeing his mind as the weapon it is, he spends little time developing his strength or speed, letting others take care of the more savage skills." INTELLEGENCE - complimented by Dex and Wis, lacking Str and Con "Smart, quick, and willful, this crafty individual is good with his hands - using them to facilitate the ends that he seeks. He is strong with his ideas, motivation and ability to reason. Unfortunately he lacks brawn and the ability to bounce back from injury, so close combat is not is forte." DEXTERITY - complimented by Str and Int, lacking Wis and Con "This spry devil is exceptionally quick to avoid a blade while fighting with the finesse and belying power to overcome many a larger foe. He makes great use of cunning and speed against the slower brute. One might say that he has tunnel vision though, more attune to escaping a fight than finding it. That and he lacks the endurance to stick to a fight til its end." Complimentary Archetypes STRENGTH - complimented by Int and Wis, lacking Dex and Con "Strong, willful, and smart, this archetype focuses on a strategic edge in battle. He relies on his strength to carry him through trials that involve wit and awareness, plus a certain level of reasoning. He focuses on precise, calculated strikes and exploiting his opponents' weaknesses. Range, acrobatics, and stamina are the only disceplines he lacks." CONSTITUTION - complimented by Dex and Int, lacking Str and Wis "This one is all about outlasting his opponent. He can out wait any enemy, suffer more damage than any enemy, and can easily outwit any enemy. He learns patterns and attacks from afar. Lacking much brute force or the capacity to track, this cool and collected individual relies on learned intel to get things accomplished." WISDOM - complimented by Str and Dex, lacking Int and Con "Intuitive, and skilled both in close and ranged combat, this archetype prefers the hunt. He has keen senses, and a way with people. Remaining on the move is key, as he lacks the patience to sit and wait or study into obstacles - making his actions quick decisive instincts." INTELLEGENCE - complimented by Str and Con, lacking Dex and Wis "This archetype is a strategist at heart. He has a wealth of knowledge at his aid, and the ability to fight should someone challenege him. He has a focus that grants him a peculiar edge in spellcraft should he have to compliment his sword with the arcane. Ranged weapons aren't entirely in his vocabulary, nor is he able to take a more worldy view of things. Single minded, might be a good word to describe him." DEXTERITY - complimented by Con and Wis, lacking Int and Str "He's quick and nimble with the stamina and acute senses to keep him tirelessly on the move. He has little need for strength because his enemies can barely touch him... and even if they manage, he's quick to shake off the injury, dip into a blind spot, and leap back into action. He prefers, ultimately, to trust his instinct over his reason." ...ok... that's all I got. I'd like to get some feedback and some discussion, now. There's essentially 10 archetypes here that may equate into classes... vs. the 11 core classes, I think this might be an interesting exercise in balancing them. And thanks for any feedback, by the way.
Sinaz 08-09-05, 12:35 PM	anybody? --Reposted in the classes subforum
Xeviat-DM 08-09-05, 04:27 PM	Interesting. Are you wishing to use these as replacement classes, some sort of formula for generating ability scores, or what? I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish with this, maybe that's why you haven't gotten any replies just yet.
Sinaz 08-09-05, 04:36 PM	I'm not sure what I'm doing... right now, I'm just trying to match up each 'archetype' with a class name... whether one thinks "hey, this seems more like a fighter, while this seems like a rogue" or "hey this is some sort of 'hunter'... call it... hunter!" I think then I'm going to toy with the idea of using these archetypes to assign stats... or at least make them a foundation for further class redefinement. Like I said... it's just brainstorming at the moment, and I'm looking for what classes these archetypes feel like.
Xeviat-DM 08-11-05, 04:04 AM	Well, the difference between a high charisma and a low charisma seems to be the difference between a hero and a mercenary; but that's sort of a reputation thing. Either way, I'll take a shot at what you're looking for. Analogous Archetypes STRENGTH - complimented by Dex and Con, lacking Int and Wis Brave CONSTITUTION - complimented by Str and Wis, lacking Int and Dex Tank WISDOM - complimented by Int and Con, lacking Dex and Str Investigator, Sage INTELLEGENCE - complimented by Dex and Wis, lacking Str and Con DEXTERITY - complimented by Str and Int, lacking Wis and Con Tactician Complimentary Archetypes STRENGTH - complimented by Int and Wis, lacking Dex and Con CONSTITUTION - complimented by Dex and Int, lacking Str and Wis WISDOM - complimented by Str and Dex, lacking Int and Con INTELLEGENCE - complimented by Str and Con, lacking Dex and Wis DEXTERITY - complimented by Con and Wis, lacking Int and Str I do say, you're going to have a pretty tough time doing anything with these, no offense. But I do have something of mine to show you that may get you thinking: Str -> Cha Dex -> Int Con -> Wis Strength is the power of your body, while charisma is your ability to influence the world around you with your mind (usually through words, or through magic). Dexterity is the quickness of your body, while intelligence is your ability to quickly analyze the world around you. Constitution is the toughness of your body, while intelligence is your ability to percieve the world and the toughness of your mind.
Lina_Inverse 08-11-05, 04:21 AM	Well, the difference between a high charisma and a low charisma seems to be the difference between a hero and a mercenary; but that's sort of a reputation thing. Either way, I'll take a shot at what you're looking for. I do say, you're going to have a pretty tough time doing anything with these, no offense. But I do have something of mine to show you that may get you thinking: Str -> Cha Dex -> Int Con -> Wis Strength is the power of your body, while charisma is your ability to influence the world around you with your mind (usually through words, or through magic). Dexterity is the quickness of your body, while intelligence is your ability to quickly analyze the world around you. Constitution is the toughness of your body, while intelligence is your ability to percieve the world and the toughness of your mind. ....how could you ruin the purity of it so much. its Str=int Dex=wis Con=cha
Gilean 08-11-05, 04:43 AM	....how could you ruin the purity of it so much. its Str=int Dex=wis Con=chaWhere did that come from? Dex and wis do have a connection, though a flimsy one, but others seem to be associated simply by the order they are found in th book. Charisma does not endure, for example.
Lina_Inverse 08-11-05, 05:10 AM	Where did that come from? Dex and wis do have a connection, though a flimsy one, but others seem to be associated simply by the order they are found in th book. Charisma does not endure, for example. astral plane from 2E. replace str with int. replace dex with wis. it didnt mention con and cha,but we can now assume since cha has become a truly mental stat that its a weee bit stuck. chock it up to a larger sense of self meaning its that much harder to shred your mind in half.
Gilean 08-11-05, 05:15 AM	astral plane from 2E. replace str with int. replace dex with wis. it didnt mention con and cha,but we can now assume since cha has become a truly mental stat that its a weee bit stuck. chock it up to a larger sense of self meaning its that much harder to shred your mind in half.In that contect they do make a modicum of sense. But this is just substitution, not similarity.
Sinaz 08-11-05, 12:06 PM	Well, the difference between a high charisma and a low charisma seems to be the difference between a hero and a mercenary; but that's sort of a reputation thing. Either way, I'll take a shot at what you're looking for. I do say, you're going to have a pretty tough time doing anything with these, no offense. But I do have something of mine to show you that may get you thinking: Str -> Cha Dex -> Int Con -> Wis Strength is the power of your body, while charisma is your ability to influence the world around you with your mind (usually through words, or through magic). Dexterity is the quickness of your body, while intelligence is your ability to quickly analyze the world around you. Constitution is the toughness of your body, while intelligence is your ability to percieve the world and the toughness of your mind. Well thought out. I'll revise the archetypes with this... I can't believe I overlooked this simple yet viable comparison. Thanks.
Sinaz 08-11-05, 01:54 PM	I created a new pinwheel of attributes... ... can't post the wheel... I summaraized them as opposing abilities for mental and physical power, toughness, and coordination. The top half is physical and the bottom half mental. This is a bit of a eureka, Xeviat... I have a custom magic system I'm working on, and this kind of opens up some doorways for balance. ...more thoughts... Consider that STR controls melee attacks and damage, DEX controls range, and CON controls hitpoints and stamina... What if CHA controlled touch magic and potentcy (damage), INT controlled the ability to cast ranged magic, and WIS controlled spell resistance (and saves) and hrmmm... I'm going with a mental hitpoint that I'll call consciousness. Where am I going with this? I have no idea (lol). But maybe consciousness and hitpoints could have a symbiotic connection that works like subdual damage and stuff. ...thinking thinking...
Xeviat-DM 08-11-05, 07:32 PM	I use an MP system where all classes get a mana die, and your wisdom multiplier is added to the mana die at each level. Charisma determines your saving throw DC for all of your spells, and spell-like abilities. Int is needed for Spellcraft, which all casters find use for, and Int is the ability score used when making magical "attacks", such as telekinesis and a few others.