Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aerunation 10-14-06, 03:17 AM	HEART Defines one's ability to persevere though overwelming odds with determination and luck. Your Heart(HRT) modifier determines how many bonus action points you can use each day in addition to the normal amount gained each level. Also, your HRT mod determines the amount of "action feats" one has available. If positive, you may use your HRT mod instead of Wis mod to resist fear effects. New Feat STRONG HEART prereq: hrt 13+ Benefit: may use heart mod in place of wisdom for will saves special: wisdom and heart modifier stack when making saves vs fear. Action Feats Action feats act as regular feats but, can only be used when you spend an action point to activate it. The action feat remains in effect for 1D6 rounds(1D8 with action boost feat or 2D6-3D6 choose higher number at higher levels) unless it's a one time use feat like sudden metamagics. Action feats carry the same prerequisites as normal feats with an exception- You cannot use an action feat as a prereq for a normal feat or for another action feat. You gain action feats at every "dead" level(a level where you do not gain a bonus feat or an ability boost). That would be levels 2, 5, 7, 10, 11, 13, 14, 17, and 19. You also gain bonus action feats at level 1 equal to your HRT modifier. EDIT! My original idea for the "heart" attribute came to me as part of another idea. I planned on making a new core class called "Hero". The class would have recieved bonus action points along with unique uses for action points. The "hero" core class would have represented a usually average kid who was forced into daring situations or had a noble cause. What seperated this kid from the commoner was how much heart he possessed. Strength of heart that allows him to surpass his physical, mental, and social limits when he's down and out. A good example of a fictional character that could model the "hero" class would be Samwise from Lord of the Rings. He had a great amount of heart and it made him a hero. I decided against the "hero" core class because I couldn't get the concept on paper the way I was hoping to. Our Campaign was originally going to be gestalt(advancing in 2 classes at once every experience level). Seeing how gestalt can get sloppy and overwhelming to some people I decided to find an alternate route and still be able to give players more but, with simpler guidelines. So I returned to the "strong of heart" theme that was iconic to my original "hero" class idea. There are so many feats to choose from with many more appearing each and every month that passes. Because of this we sometimes run into the problem of finding new feats that fit our character better than old ones. Sometimes there will be 2 feats that fit one's theme but, limits prevail and you can only have one of the 2. Birthed from this came the concept of "action feats". These are feats that can only be activated by spending an action point(activated for 1d6 rounds unless the feat states otherwise; like in the case of sudden metamagics). You must meet all prerequisits for them and once you choose one it becomes permanent. Action feats cannot be prereqs for other action feats, bonus feats, or prestige classes. At any level you gain a bonus feat you may "upgrade" an action feat into a bonus feat(then you may replace the action feat slot). Your HEART score modifier determines how many bonus action feats you start with at level 1. You gain action points like normal, 1/2 character level +5(these replenish when another level is gained). Your HEART mod gives you bonus daily action points. level-1(bonus feat) level-2(action feat) level-3(bonus feat) level-4(ability boost) level-5(action feat) level-6(bonus feat) level-7(action feat) level-8(ability boost) level-9(bonus feat) level-10(action feat) level-11(action feat) level-12(bonus feat, ability boost) level-13(action feat) level-14(action feat) level-15(bonus feat) level-16(ability boost) level-17(action feat) level-18(bonus feat) level-19(action feat) level-20(ability boost) .....as listed above, you only gain action feats on levels where you do not recieve a bonus feat or ability boost. This was my way of giving something extra to the players on the "dead" levels. P.S.- I also use a slightly higher point buy to give the players enough room to have a "free" 14 in the score. This is in the interest of fairness. I hope I cleared things up a bit
Lina_Inverse 10-14-06, 03:44 AM	Wisdom and charisma would like words with you.
Aerunation 10-14-06, 04:08 AM	Wisdom and charisma would like words with you.Well, why would one need to be wise and charismatic to also be strong of heart? What about the big, dumb, wittless, boring fighter who never gives up? Who believes in himself. Who pulls some intangible strength from within to overcome impossible odds? Heart shouldn't be measured by wisdom or charisma. It's an intingable force that only a special few possess. The stuff heroes are made of. ....atleast in my campaigns that is.
Lina_Inverse 10-14-06, 04:11 AM	Well, why would one need to be wise and charismatic to also be strong of heart? Because strengh of heart is something generally divided up among those things. Faith for example, is a part of wisdom, and certainly something tied to strengh of heart. What about the big, dumb, wittless, boring fighter who never gives up? Who believes in himself. Who pulls some intangible strength from within to overcome impossible odds? Heart shouldn't be measured by wisdom or charisma. It's an intingable force that only a special few possess. The stuff heroes are made of. ....atleast in my campaigns that is. Believeing in one self is the very essense of charisma in the dungeons and dragons game. If a charecter believes strongly in themself, ie has a large ego, then that person has a high charisma score.
Aerunation 10-14-06, 04:44 AM	Because strengh of heart is something generally divided up among those things. Faith for example, is a part of wisdom, and certainly something tied to strengh of heart. Believeing in one self is the very essense of charisma in the dungeons and dragons game. If a charecter believes strongly in themself, ie has a large ego, then that person has a high charisma score. Faith is the belief or trust in something, typically an ideal that cannot be proven. Heart is based off of drawing from something intangible to perservere. Which one must have faith in to believe as an ideal. Heart is seperate from faith, it's something special, something great heroes possess. It is hard for me to explain because heart really cannot be defined. Like I said before, it is an intangible force that heroes are made of. Few will possess a high score in the attribute. You are using logic and knoledge of the game to define it when it shouldn't be done. It's put in place so characters can be more heroic, and challenges be greater.
Lina_Inverse 10-14-06, 04:52 AM	Faith is the belief or trust in something, typically an ideal that cannot be proven. Heart is based off of drawing from something intangible to perservere. Which one must have faith in to believe as an ideal. Heart is seperate from faith, it's something special, something great heroes possess. It is hard for me to explain because heart really cannot be defined. Like I said before, it is an intangible force that heroes are made of. Few will possess a high score in the attribute. You are using logic and knoledge of the game to define it when it shouldn't be done. It's put in place so characters can be more heroic, and challenges be greater. All things can be quantified and defined, the trait you wish to quantify is already quantified under the attribute charisma. Belief in oneself is part of charisma. Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting. Charisma is most important for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects their ability to turn undead. Every creature has a Charisma score. The key line here is force of personality. Your intended goal can be easily reached by simply adding the benefit of heart to charisma, a generally underachieveing attribute in the first place.
Aerunation 10-14-06, 05:20 AM	.....yes, I could have but, I did not want every character who was strong of heart to also be the most charismatic to be the most liked, the most persuasive or the most personally magnetic. In my campaign, it's something spiritual, like a spark of life that heroes are born of. Why can't the gruff, brooding dwarven fighter have a strong heart? You could argue that most dwarven fighter are strong of heart but, typically have a low charisma. I look at someone with alot of "force of personality" as someone who is larger than life, who draws attention to themself. Not someone with alot of heart. If that were the case, Madonna could perservere over anything. Look at Perry Satullo (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.puroresufan.com/images/saturn.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.puroresufan.com/roster/saturn.php&h=275&w=214&sz=10&hl=en&start=2&tbnid=JHsyJUlkr6XznM:&tbnh=114&tbnw=89&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dperry%2Bsaturn%26ndsp%3D20% 26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN) for example. Former army ranger and pro wrestler. Had a decent career but, never got over strong and had mild success. About 2 years ago he was driving home and had seen some sort of dispute off the road. He pulled over to check it out and found 2 men trying to sexually assualt a woman in the car. He tried to stop it and fought the men off successfully. During the heroic deed he suffered 2 gun shot wounds at point blank range to his neck which ended his career. The most charismatic guy-no. Strong of heart to perservere and still save the woman in danger and survive himself-yes
Aerunation 10-14-06, 05:53 AM	All things can be quantified and defined, the trait you wish to quantify is already quantified under the attribute charisma. Belief in oneself is part of charisma. The key line here is force of personality. Your intended goal can be easily reached by simply adding the benefit of heart to charisma, a generally underachieveing attribute in the first place. The key words I used to describe Heart were "determination" and "luck"
Darth Sephiroth 10-14-06, 12:13 PM	That would be Willpower, once again wisdom based it seems
Thiez 10-14-06, 06:17 PM	Why play a character in your campaigns if you roll low for that retarded 'heart' score? Oh, my character doesn't have much 'heart', so he obviously can't be a hero. Might aswel choose commoner as my class and spend the rest of my life farming. This heart thing of yours is more a personality trait like Alignment.
Aerunation 10-15-06, 03:10 AM	Why play a character in your campaigns if you roll low for that retarded 'heart' score? Oh, my character doesn't have much 'heart', so he obviously can't be a hero. Might aswel choose commoner as my class and spend the rest of my life farming. This heart thing of yours is more a personality trait like Alignment.I use a point buy...problem solved. I've been using it in my campaign for 2 months now. It's actually worked out well. It's given players more options and has allowed more customizations. There's alot of feats in the game now. Alot that players would like to take but, at the same time there is alot of core feats you "need". This was a away to take advantage of them without being too overpowering. No need to use the "retard" insult to make your "pecker" look big. I've been really nice so far:(
nastynate 10-15-06, 04:11 AM	Petty insults aside, this would probably be a better fit in a game without mental ability scores, where it could be used as a casting/willpower ability. Strength Dexterity Constitution Heart [Willpower would be my personal choice for a name] Perception Comliness In a game with these kind of stats, Heart would fit nicely, and it alleviates some of the things I hate, namely mental and social attributes which should be reflected in role-play, rather than by game mechanics. (How can someone possibly emulate a character with an Intelligence score of 24 anyway?) I also like action points, and can see a nice connection between the action feats and heart. Keep working at it, and as long as you're having fun, pay no heed to the detractors. -Peace-
Lina_Inverse 10-15-06, 05:52 AM	In a game with these kind of stats, Heart would fit nicely, and it alleviates some of the things I hate, namely mental and social attributes which should be reflected in role-play, rather than by game mechanics. (How can someone possibly emulate a character with an Intelligence score of 24 anyway?) That is in no way shape or form roleplaying. An 80 pound weakling can roleplay a strengh 24 charecter fulfilling, why is it the socially inept person should have no right to play a charisma 24 bard. Your arguement goes against the very concept of roleplaying, takeing the role of something that is -not you-.
Rhialto 10-15-06, 07:08 AM	He was noting the inconsistency in mental abilities and roleplay, not physical abilities and roleplay.
nastynate 10-15-06, 12:28 PM	That is in no way shape or form roleplaying. An 80 pound weakling can roleplay a strengh 24 charecter fulfilling, why is it the socially inept person should have no right to play a charisma 24 bard. Your arguement goes against the very concept of roleplaying, takeing the role of something that is -not you-. You misinterpret me. I can convincingly dictate the actions of fictional characters of different physical qualities, and I can roleplay different personality quirks, but in no way can I realistically portray a character of phenominal or superhuman mental characteristics. Throw a complicated puzzle at me, or a tenuous social situation, and I may struggle, even if my character has the mental stats to easily handle these scenarios. There are certain things that are simply impossible to fake (er roleplay) realistically. I am not denouncing the essence of roleplay; I am actually stating that mental ability scores impede roleplay, by occasionally holding us to standards we cannot live up to in roleplaying situations. As for a "socially inept" person wanting to play a 24 Charisma bard...more power to them. We both must acknowledge however, that this person will not dictate their character's dialogue at a level of linguistic prowess that reflects the Charisma of his character. He will be rolling Diplomacy checks constantly to compensate for his own RL shortcomings. Rolling Diplomacy checks is not really roleplaying either. Laterz P.S. Removing mental ability scores will not change the way you play. You will still have the exact same range of options intellectually and socially as you had before, but when you stumble over your words, or get stumped by a scenario, you won't be able to fall back on die rolling as a substitute for real roleplaying.
Lina_Inverse 10-15-06, 06:11 PM	You misinterpret me. I can convincingly dictate the actions of fictional characters of different physical qualities, and I can roleplay different personality quirks, but in no way can I realistically portray a character of phenominal or superhuman mental characteristics. Throw a complicated puzzle at me, or a tenuous social situation, and I may struggle, even if my character has the mental stats to easily handle these scenarios. There are certain things that are simply impossible to fake (er roleplay) realistically. I am not denouncing the essence of roleplay; I am actually stating that mental ability scores impede roleplay, by occasionally holding us to standards we cannot live up to in roleplaying situations. As for a "socially inept" person wanting to play a 24 Charisma bard...more power to them. We both must acknowledge however, that this person will not dictate their character's dialogue at a level of linguistic prowess that reflects the Charisma of his character. He will be rolling Diplomacy checks constantly to compensate for his own RL shortcomings. Rolling Diplomacy checks is not really roleplaying either. Laterz P.S. Removing mental ability scores will not change the way you play. You will still have the exact same range of options intellectually and socially as you had before, but when you stumble over your words, or get stumped by a scenario, you won't be able to fall back on die rolling as a substitute for real roleplaying. If your abilitys are more importent than your charecters, it is by definition NOT ROLEPLAYING. It is as much a denial of roleplaying as useing your own strengh, dexterity and constitution in place of your charecters. As strong a denial of roleplaying as requireing weapon specilization for the player to allow the fighter to take it. IT IS THE EXACT SAME THING.
nastynate 10-15-06, 11:11 PM	If your abilitys are more importent than your charecters, it is by definition NOT ROLEPLAYING. It is as much a denial of roleplaying as useing your own strengh, dexterity and constitution in place of your charecters. As strong a denial of roleplaying as requireing weapon specilization for the player to allow the fighter to take it. IT IS THE EXACT SAME THING. Is that bold text meant to indicate you are yelling at me? I never stated that ability scores are more important than your character. I clearly advocated removing some, which would should indicate that they are not very important to me at all. EDIT: Or did you mean if my personal role-playing ability is more important than the character I am portraying? Well...we all have ranges of talent, and not all roles are created equally. I think playing a role that you play well is important. Challenging youself is fun, but even Oscar winners sometimes take on roles they portray poorly (often resulting bad movies), and they don't have to improvise their dialogue along the way. Your character is only what you are capable of portraying accurately through role-play and some numbers on a piece of paper; without you, there is no character. So yes, the player's ability is more important than what is written on their character sheet. As far as your belief that using your own physical characteristics is the same thing as using your own mental characteristics, I completely disagree. Your imagination can divorce you from your body, but it can never divorce you from your mind, and you cannot roleplay something you cannot understand. A simple example: You have a bard with a 24 in Charisma, Wisdom, and Intelligence. Now in the words of your character convince I am wrong. (Any character with those attributes should be able to do so easily, but can you?). Roleplaying involves real words, real people, and real conversation between them. "Time to make Diplomacy rolls," is not roleplaying, and even if you resolve this scenario with cunning dialogue you will still not convince me of your superhuman mental power; its the whole suspension of disbelief thing. Now, describe to me the physical characteristics of your bard. Is he sickly and frail, strong but clumsy, wiry and quick? I can visualize these physical characteristics in my mind, just from your words, and the results of your rolls in combat. You do not need to roleplay these characteristics (by putting me in a headlock to demonstrate your might for example), because they are tangible images that do not need further explaination. (Unlike the intangible mental stats, which are reflected in the role-play of the players whether they are accurate, convincing, or not). That, is why I dislike them. You are welcome to feel however you wish. -Peace- P.S. Aerunation: sorry for hijacking your thread. I'll shut up now. ;)
rydi123 10-16-06, 04:49 PM	what is the definition of roleplaying? is it using numeric representations of real life statistics to simulate characters interacting with the world? if so, then everyone can play a charisma 24 character, or an intelligence 200 character, or whatever. and using your own abilities in there to sway the game is a form of metagaming. if, however, roleplaying is acting to the best of your ability, and the decisions you make (aside from the numbers on your sheet or the dice you roll) matter, then it is pretty much impossible to accurately roleplay your character past a certain point. when one has a strength of 8, but plays a 25 strength character, there is still a good degree of accuracy possible. we have a set amount of weight that can be lifted for each level of strength, and we have real world examples of high strength that we can extrapolate from (or add onto, in the case of 25 str). though not as detailed or clear as str, the other physical stats are similar, in that we have real world examples of what high scores in those attributes represent. the only thing we may not understand is the internal experience of those with said scores, but even that can be done to a degree (the high strength character has to be careful not to hurt things with his/her great strength, for example). the mental attributes cannot be understood in this same manner. they represent things that are far less clearly defined in RL. even the one that supposedly has accurate RL measures (intelligence) is heavily debated by the psychological community. Charisma and Wisdom are even more vague. Further, to act out these attributes you have to be able to understand them, a thing that those with lesser attributes cannot do to any high degree. imagine a charisma 8 person pretending to be charming (read obnoxious and irritating) for example. they can try to be charismatic, but really the only way to represent thier charisma is with a die roll, which is not the same as acting it out/roleplaying. the same goes for the other attributes. the person playing the smart character can't actually solve a puzzle thier character could (even though many dm's ask thier players {not characters} to solve puzzles, and many players enjoy it), they can only roll dice to determine whether they do, again reducing the roleplaying component many GM's i have met over the years, because of this issue, have actually advocated systems without any mental stats, so that the roleplaying/acting experience would be more accurate. because they are tangible images that do not need further explaination. wow. that was a good way of putting that.
Sanguine_My_Brother 10-16-06, 09:24 PM	*Ma-ti pulls out ring of Heart* HEART!!!!:rofl:
theblindman 10-17-06, 11:21 PM	Wisdom and charisma would like words with you. What I had in mind to say, only much wittier. Kudos. It is hard for me to explain because heart really cannot be defined. If you cannot define it, it should not be an ability score. .....yes, I could have but, I did not want every character who was strong of heart to also be the most charismatic to be the most liked, the most persuasive or the most personally magnetic. In my campaign, it's something spiritual, like a spark of life that heroes are born of. This is actually a very good point. (though taking an example from pro-wrestling is not a good tactical move) The idea that social skill is some intangible aura related to ego that erodes the free will of those in immediate vicinity is the Hollywood view of charisma. It is ludicrous, and I have some　problems with it. Moreover, the division of "willpower" between Wisdom and Charisma that Lina talks of is a legacy at best, and clumsy at worst. Will Saves, for instance, are not related to your "willpower" statistic, Charisma, but is instead relegated to the "faith" statistic, which doubles as the "perception" statistic as well, another clumsy instance of many-hats. If "willpower" is going to be an important part of the game, and the mechanics say that it is, there should be one stat to define it, in roughly the same way that Str, Dex and Con are not lumped all into one stat called Brawn or Fitness. Dividing "willpower" between Wis and Cha is untenable. That being said, creating a seventh statistic just complicates the situation by adding another layer of complexity without better defining the remaining stats. A simpler solution would be to play with "Action Points". Anyway, if you're going to convince me that this is a good idea, you're going to have to do the following things. Define Heart, Wisdom, and Charisma. Explain their functions and meaning. Give examples of how somebody with high and low numbers in each individually behaves. Give two to three examples of a heart roll. Explain what happens if they fail. Explain what happens if they pass. Give some guidelines for DMs to determine the DC of a Heart Check. Explain how Action Points are different from Heart. Explain how Heart is different from a Will Save.
Aerunation 10-18-06, 09:12 PM	If you cannot define it, it should not be an ability score. This is actually a very good point. (though taking an example from pro-wrestling is not a good tactical move) Anyway, if you're going to convince me that this is a good idea, you're going to have to do the following things. Define Heart, Wisdom, and Charisma. Explain their functions and meaning. Give examples of how somebody with high and low numbers in each individually behaves. Give two to three examples of a heart roll. Explain what happens if they fail. Explain what happens if they pass. Give some guidelines for DMs to determine the DC of a Heart Check. Explain how Action Points are different from Heart. Explain how Heart is different from a Will Save. *Wisdom and Charisma are defined already, it's slight differences in interpretation that caused the debate. I understand "force of personality" as one's presence, like a powerful aura about someone that creates emotion from another. That's charisma, not heart. Heart is perserverance. The ability to draw on intangible forces to overcome impossible obstacles. When you're down and out, have nothing else left, let live or let die, you will not give up. By this, you "use an action point". *Heart check- Heart was my way of explaining action points and making new uses for them. Example- an enemy wizard casts "ray of enfeeblement" on your barbarian and gives him a -6 to strength. You ask your DM how heart can help you perservere(there's that word again) through this that crippled your barbarian's prowess(especially at low levels). DM says "roll a heart check, DC for this 13(10 + wizard's requisite ability score-int 16/mod+3). This heart check has cost the barbarian 1 action point. If he passes, he has 1d6(his action point roll) rounds to ignore the penalty. Afterwards he is fatigued(exausted then unconscious on a progressive scale- loss of hit points beyond this). Failure should also result in fatigue or other suitible drawback. *action points and heart are related. They are to each other what bonus languages are to int and carrying capacity is to str. Using and action point to add 1d6 to a d20 roll is supposed to represent your character doing something heroic in his/her action. I believe this was explained well above. *If wisdom represents how "intuned' you are with everything and gives you a bonus to willpower accordingly then heart represents one's ability to fight againt the odds and overcome something he/she shouldn't normally be able to do with his/her abilities(by using an action point or a heart check to subdue some ill effects). P.S. About the pro wrestler story. I was giving a real life event that happened outside of the wrestling industry to a real person. Not a fictitious "angle" that played out on television.
theblindman 10-18-06, 10:04 PM	You really only answered two of my questions, so I remain unconvinced. I think your Heart mechanics are clumsy and gimp spellcasters. PS: it was a fine story. But pro-wrestling has a bit of a stigma attached to it that rhetorically undermines your position.
Aerunation 10-18-06, 10:16 PM	You really only answered two of my questions, so I remain unconvinced. I think your Heart mechanics are clumsy and gimp spellcasters. PS: it was a fine story. But pro-wrestling has a bit of a stigma attached to it that rhetorically undermines your position. actually it hasn't "gimped" my spell casters. especially with use of the sudden metamagics. Anyways, spellcasters already had a big advantage, especially at higher levels. They deserve to be brought down a notch or two. P.S. tell me what you'd like for me to clear up from my above post.
EvilVegan 11-05-06, 12:20 PM	Let me try! 1) Define Heart, Wisdom, and Charisma. Explain their functions and meaning. Give examples of how somebody with high and low numbers in each individually behaves: Heart - an inner spark of heroic proportions allowing an individual to overcome even when the odds are stacked against him. A high heart skill doesn't affect how you act, but how you react. Characters with high heart typically react to adversity better than a normal person. A barmaid who saves everyone from a burning building, a guy on a plane that takes down a terrorist before they can fly it into a building (yes I went there), the kid in the school yard who stood up to the school bully, or the villain who always escapes at the last minute through extraordinary perserverence. Wisdom - Perception. Understanding. Intuitiveness. Ability to understand complex philosophical ideals that education alone cannot explain. Characters with high wisdom typically understand how "things" work (philosophically speaking) and have helpful advice ("hey, don't eat fire"). Charisma - Force of personality. Social grace. Ability to force your will on other people or the rules of the universe (for spontaneous casters). They act with determination and typically try to get their way, even if other people don't notice. Optionally they're really "hot". 2) Give two to three examples of a heart roll. Explain what happens if they fail. Explain what happens if they pass. Give some guidelines for DMs to determine the DC of a Heart Check.: Examples of heart rolls: up to DM fiat. Aerunation's example holds up pretty well. It sets a precedent for actions that aren't well defined within the rules. 3) Explain how Action Points are different from Heart: Explain how Hit points are different from constitution? Heart gives you extra action points and access to action feats. They are a part of how action points work in the campaign, not a replacement. 4) Explain how Heart is different from a Will Save: A will save is resistance to effects targetted at one's mind. Heart is an inner spark of heroic quality that CAN affect will saves. Heart can also grant action points which add to things beside will saves. From what I'm gathering Heart could also be viewed as a "Luck" attribute. But who doesn't love Captain Planet? And pro-wrestling stigma doesn't negate the fact that it makes a good example. If you can't separate your stigma from relevant simile that isn't his fault.
Thiez 11-05-06, 03:41 PM	Name a skill that could use Heart's ability modifier. :) Edit: oh, and sorry about my last post on this topic. I was frustrated at something else at the time of writing, and looking back at the post now I realize it has a bit too much flame to be considered constructive critisism.
EvilVegan 11-05-06, 05:05 PM	Name a skill that could use Heart's ability modifier. :) Can't think of any individual skills at the moment, but I don't see a reason to make a new skill for the new ability score. There are enough skills already. However, the ability score grants you action points, as such it grants bonuses to all skill checks that you use an action point on. As such ANY skill check could be a heart check.
Rhialto 11-05-06, 06:06 PM	Let me try! 1) Define Heart, Wisdom, and Charisma. Explain their functions and meaning. Give examples of how somebody with high and low numbers in each individually behaves: Heart - an inner spark of heroic proportions allowing an individual to overcome even when the odds are stacked against him. A high heart skill doesn't affect how you act, but how you react. Characters with high heart typically react to adversity better than a normal person. A barmaid who saves everyone from a burning building, a guy on a plane that takes down a terrorist before they can fly it into a building (yes I went there), the kid in the school yard who stood up to the school bully, or the villain who always escapes at the last minute through extraordinary perserverence. Isn't this called character level already?
EvilVegan 11-05-06, 06:35 PM	Isn't this called character level already? No. Character level represents ability gained through training in a particular class. Implying that this change is an unnecessary waste of time is not constructive. Unnecessary wastes of time are the basic premise behind all games. In reference to your earlier arguments about roleplaying characters with different abilities than the Player may exemplify. So you're (the character) a wizard with a 36 int but you (the person) failed basic math and can barely read (but like to roll the pretty dice and act!), your ability score helps you be the character you want without the actual intelligence to back it up (not you personally!). Now move that analogy over to a character who is able to overcome even when the odds are against him and then have him played by one of the unluckiest people on the planet. He rolls constantly below 10 and the only way to overcome is with action points. Player fault does not impede roleplaying the character he has in mind. Of course he'd probably roll all ones on his action dice. . . and the argument can't truly be quantified because luck is quite nebulous.
justdmjeff 11-05-06, 07:26 PM	Heart--Those things in the upper corner of my television everytime I play a Zelda game. It sounds as if your are trying to define a characteristic that all characters would have inborn anyway. To use the OPs definition HEART Defines one's ability to persevere though overwelming odds with determination and luck. Determination and luck-- Isn't that what feats and skills do anyway? Getting ranks in a skill or aquiring a feat improves your determination in that feat or skill. You get modifiers on your dice rolls. That improves your luck. In other words, what seperates the PC and the farmer is heart and that is brought out by the use of feats and skills. The pro-wresting analogy was very well used. If you had just said "this guy" instead of "pro wrestler" no one would have questioned it one bit. But because the guy just happened to be a pro wrestler then it doesn't mean anything to some people. Of course during the end of his wrestling career he wore a dress and talked to a mop. But he had it in him to be a hero anyway. That is why he would be a D & D character and not the innkeeper or farmer.
EvilVegan 11-05-06, 11:41 PM	Determination and luck-- Isn't that what feats and skills do anyway? Getting ranks in a skill or aquiring a feat improves your determination in that feat or skill. You get modifiers on your dice rolls. That improves your luck. In other words, what seperates the PC and the farmer is heart and that is brought out by the use of feats and skills. You are indeed making a good point, but skills, feats, levels, etc don't represent innate spark, they represent training and practice. Some people just have more heart. You could indeed say that those people are what PCs are made of, but I see no reason why joe commoner with a big heart couldn't get some action points to throw towards farmin' or rescuin' babies.
theotherdraxen 11-06-06, 07:00 AM	HEART Defines one's ability to persevere though overwelming odds with determination and luck. Determination and luck-- Isn't that what feats and skills do anyway? Getting ranks in a skill or aquiring a feat improves your determination in that feat or skill. You get modifiers on your dice rolls. That improves your luck. In other words, what seperates the PC and the farmer is heart and that is brought out by the use of feats and skills. No. Heart represents the inner strength that people have to fight on and perservere when they normally shouldn't. Even farmers have feats and skills, but if I understand this correctly, the farmer does not have a heart score. Feats represent amazing tasks that your character knows how to accomplish (track is in no way made up of determination and luck). Ranks represent competence, or know-how around a skill (15 ranks in Profession chef makes me a good cook, not a determined or lucky one).
justdmjeff 11-06-06, 09:27 AM	No. Heart represents the inner strength that people have to fight on and perservere when they normally shouldn't. Even farmers have feats and skills, but if I understand this correctly, the farmer does not have a heart score. Feats represent amazing tasks that your character knows how to accomplish (track is in no way made up of determination and luck). Ranks represent competence, or know-how around a skill (15 ranks in Profession chef makes me a good cook, not a determined or lucky one). Yes, but is it not determination and perserverense that leads to gaining a feat and the ranks in skills. You have to study and practice in order to track well. 15 ranks in chef takes a long time to accomplish. There has to be an inner strength to accomplish this. And the ranks represent luck. On a DC of 15, you can still roll a 2 and accomplish your goal. I don't know (even though I'm still on the fence with the issue. I guess I'm just playing devil's advocate.) I still think that the character's overall makeup defines heart. That is why our character's become heros and not farmers. Also a character's drive and inner strength is determined by the player playing it. If the player wants to run, the character will run. Are you saying we need an extra ability to help the player keep his character in dangerous situations? Aren't action points part of the Eberron system anyway? Never played it, just read about it.
theotherdraxen 11-06-06, 10:53 AM	Yes, but is it not determination and perserverense that leads to gaining a feat and the ranks in skills. You have to study and practice in order to track well. 15 ranks in chef takes a long time to accomplish. There has to be an inner strength to accomplish this. And the ranks represent luck. On a DC of 15, you can still roll a 2 and accomplish your goal. You might need determination to get the feat, but once you have it, its the feat that does the talking, not the determination. Rolling a 2 is bad luck, and it's your impressive skill (represented by 15 ranks) that lets you succeed anyway. Luck would be represented by augmenting that 2 into a 5 with an action point. I don't know (even though I'm still on the fence with the issue. I guess I'm just playing devil's advocate.) And I'm not breaking up your text because I don't like you. I'm just doing it because it makes it easier to respond to each point. I still think that the character's overall makeup defines heart. That is why our character's become heros and not farmers. Also a character's drive and inner strength is determined by the player playing it. So are their intelligence, wisdom, and charisma. However, unlike the normal 3 mentals, heart is not difficult to role-play if you don't have a lot and your character has tons. Plus, I (and many others) like to see real game effects for our character concepts. If I want to play a stout-hearted hero or a lucky swashbuckling gambler, then the Heart Score is a good way to represent that. In regular D&D, I just have to say it is so, which is much less pleasant. If the player wants to run, the character will run. True. If the wizard wants to lose at chess, or the cleric zones out, or the sorcerer tell bad jokes and fart in public, then they get what they want. Hopefully, though, people will try to role-play their mental scores, including heart. Are you saying we need an extra ability to help the player keep his character in dangerous situations? I personally think that D&D is about heroism, and that characters should be granted immunity to fear by a certain level. Fear effects, when applied to heroes, defeats the point of heroism, and possibly, the point of D&D. Just my opinion, though. Aren't action points part of the Eberron system anyway? Never played it, just read about it. Right. This replaces the action point mechanic.
EvilVegan 11-06-06, 10:55 AM	Action points are part of the eberron system. Basically any time you roll a d20 you can spend an action point before you know the outcome (but after the d20 has been rolled) to add a d6 to the roll. It makes the characters seem less like buffoons when bad rolls come a calling. There are feats and class abilities that play off the action point system and Aerunation has expanded those, created an ability score to grant extra action points, and created a new system of feats that are accessible only with action points. The ability score, while useful to PCs, is also a way to grant action points to NPCs without them having to take a feat to do so, as a balancing mechanism for DMs. Since I plan on playing a changeling chameleon in his campaign soon, the idea of a pool of feats that I can keep and just spend an action point to access makes the concept I am going for that much more viable. Because when I'm pretending to be a fighter and need to bullrush someone I can spend an action point to activate improved bullrush, thereby proving to the audience that I am indeed a fighter. The next day when I'm pretending to be a cleric I could spend an action point to gain divine feats. I'll be using it to expand my versatility. And since monsters/villains can access these abilities also it balances it against the system.
justdmjeff 11-06-06, 12:20 PM	You might need determination to get the feat, but once you have it, its the feat that does the talking, not the determination. Rolling a 2 is bad luck, and it's your impressive skill (represented by 15 ranks) that lets you succeed anyway. Luck would be represented by augmenting that 2 into a 5 with an action point. Yes. You worked really hard to get that feat. Blood, sweat, tears. Hours of failure. You could have given up at anytime but you perservered. The feat does the talking, but it also represents all the determination that was put into aquiring it. And the added modifiers represent the luck. Chef: " I put the wrong ingredients into the stew(represented by the roll of 2) but the king liked it anyway(represented by adding the 15 ranks). The modifiers represent turning bad luck into good. I am starting to agree that action points would be a good addition to the D&D game if they work as EvilVegen has described. But I don't think that a new ability needs to be added. You just have them like hit points. If you want to call it HEART, so be it. I don't know how action points are determined in Eberron, so I do not know how that would work.
theotherdraxen 11-06-06, 12:45 PM	Yes. You worked really hard to get that feat. Blood, sweat, tears. Hours of failure. You could have given up at anytime but you perservered. The feat does the talking, but it also represents all the determination that was put into aquiring it. And the added modifiers represent the luck. Chef: " I put the wrong ingredients into the stew(represented by the roll of 2) but the king liked it anyway(represented by adding the 15 ranks). The modifiers represent turning bad luck into good. Well, you can describe things however you want, that's the rule in D&D. I always imagined that putting the wrong ingredients in (rolling a 2) was bad luck, but the 15 ranks told you how to turn it into a good meal anyway. A person using balance to walk a tight-rope rolls a 2. Luck would be catching on an edge. Skill would be wavering on the rope, but finding your balance again. Plus, considering how ranks are derived from intelligence, luck just generally doesn't cut it for me. Thats why I say ranks=skill, and action point=luck or perservearance.
EvilVegan 11-06-06, 07:34 PM	Yes. You worked really hard to get that feat. Blood, sweat, tears. Hours of failure. You could have given up at anytime but you perservered. The feat does the talking, but it also represents all the determination that was put into aquiring it. And the added modifiers represent the luck. Chef: " I put the wrong ingredients into the stew(represented by the roll of 2) but the king liked it anyway(represented by adding the 15 ranks). The modifiers represent turning bad luck into good. I am starting to agree that action points would be a good addition to the D&D game if they work as EvilVegen has described. But I don't think that a new ability needs to be added. You just have them like hit points. If you want to call it HEART, so be it. I don't know how action points are determined in Eberron, so I do not know how that would work. You get a set # of action points per level. I think aerunation is using heart to grant action points per day.
The Ultimate Dragongod 11-06-06, 10:26 PM	Strength Dexterity Constitution Intelligence Wisdom Charisma Heart CAPTAIN PLANET!!!!! I mean.. I think I might call it 'Spirit' instead of heart. I just think it sounds better, though not that great.
Aerunation 11-07-06, 12:56 AM	My original idea for the "heart" attribute came to me as part of another idea. I planned on making a new core class called "Hero". The class would have recieved bonus action points along with unique uses for action points. The "hero" core class would have represented a usually average kid who was forced into daring situations or had a noble cause. What seperated this kid from the commoner was how much heart he possessed. Strength of heart that allows him to surpass his physical, mental, and social limits when he's down and out. A good example of a fictional character that could model the "hero" class would be Samwise from Lord of the Rings. He had a great amount of heart and it made him a hero. I decided against the "hero" core class because I couldn't get the concept on paper the way I was hoping to. Our Campaign was originally going to be gestalt(advancing in 2 classes at once every experience level). Seeing how gestalt can get sloppy and overwhelming to some people I decided to find an alternate route and still be able to give players more but, with simpler guidelines. So I returned to the "strong of heart" theme that was iconic to my original "hero" class idea. There are so many feats to choose from with many more appearing each and every month that passes. Because of this we sometimes run into the problem of finding new feats that fit our character better than old ones. Sometimes there will be 2 feats that fit one's theme but, limits prevail and you can only have one of the 2. Birthed from this came the concept of "action feats". These are feats that can only be activated by spending an action point(activated for 1d6 rounds unless the feat states otherwise; like in the case of sudden metamagics). You must meet all prerequisits for them and once you choose one it becomes permanent. Action feats cannot be prereqs for other action feats, bonus feats, or prestige classes. At any level you gain a bonus feat you may "upgrade" an action feat into a bonus feat(then you may replace the action feat slot). Your HEART score modifier determines how many bonus action feats you start with at level 1. You gain action points like normal, 1/2 character level +5(these replenish when another level is gained). Your HEART mod gives you bonus daily action points. level-1(bonus feat) level-2(action feat) level-3(bonus feat) level-4(ability boost) level-5(action feat) level-6(bonus feat) level-7(action feat) level-8(ability boost) level-9(bonus feat) level-10(action feat) level-11(action feat) level-12(bonus feat, ability boost) level-13(action feat) level-14(action feat) level-15(bonus feat) level-16(ability boost) level-17(action feat) level-18(bonus feat) level-19(action feat) level-20(ability boost) .....as listed above, you only gain action feats on levels where you do not recieve a bonus feat or ability boost. This was my way of giving something extra to the players on the "dead" levels. P.S.- I also use a slightly higher point buy to give the players enough room to have a "free" 14 in the score. This is in the interest of fairness. I hope I cleared things up a bit :)
TheDarkLord 11-07-06, 02:47 AM	Heart explained by my High school football D-Line coach: Coach: Boys do you know what heart is... it is Intestinal fortitude... Me: What is Intestinal Fortitude? Coach: Intestinal Fortitude is inner strength. Me: I can crap harder? Coach: Shut-up Mike.. Heart is Balls, you gotta have balls. Get out there and WIN.
EvilVegan 11-07-06, 01:23 PM	I second the motion to rename "Heart" to "Balls". All in favor?
Aerunation 11-08-06, 12:37 AM	I second the motion to rename "Heart" to "Balls". All in favor? you can write "balls" on your character sheet.
Nathreet 11-09-06, 05:30 PM	Ahh, the flames of passion we see here today. Introducing heart into anything leads to arguments & trouble. I'm going to have to go with Mr. Spok and leave heart to DM number-fudging. Sure it exists, but you don't want to talk about. "Balls" OTOH...
Aerunation 11-09-06, 09:09 PM	Ahh, the flames of passion we see here today. Introducing heart into anything leads to arguments & trouble. I'm going to have to go with Mr. Spok and leave heart to DM number-fudging. Sure it exists, but you don't want to talk about. "Balls" OTOH... ..... like it or hate it, this new house rule of mine ties into my campaign. It also allows the players to have a little more fun and that's what it's all about anyways.
TheAnthroDM 11-10-06, 02:30 AM	Wisdom and charisma would like words with you. Intellegence might be getting mad too!
EvilVegan 11-10-06, 12:58 PM	Balls always override intelligence.
starfire311 11-10-06, 02:06 PM	Heart - an inner spark of heroic proportions allowing an individual to overcome even when the odds are stacked against him. A high heart skill doesn't affect how you act, but how you react. Characters with high heart typically react to adversity better than a normal person. A barmaid who saves everyone from a burning building, a guy on a plane that takes down a terrorist before they can fly it into a building (yes I went there), the kid in the school yard who stood up to the school bully, or the villain who always escapes at the last minute through extraordinary perserverence. Wisdom - Perception. Understanding. Intuitiveness. Ability to understand complex philosophical ideals that education alone cannot explain. Characters with high wisdom typically understand how "things" work (philosophically speaking) and have helpful advice ("hey, don't eat fire"). Charisma - Force of personality. Social grace. Ability to force your will on other people or the rules of the universe (for spontaneous casters). They act with determination and typically try to get their way, even if other people don't notice. Optionally they're really "hot". seems to me that heart would modify will saves, and not wisdom, with this set up, and heart should also be the casting stat for clerics.
EvilVegan 11-10-06, 02:40 PM	Only if the clerics don't worship a deity or aren't members of a complex philosophical organization . . . And will saves are based off of being aware and fully conscious, which is a factor of wisdom. If anything I think they'd be based off of charisma, not wisdom.
theotherdraxen 11-10-06, 09:18 PM	Well, I renamed Wisdom as Focus. Things make a lot more sense to me with Focus instead of Wisdom.
EvilVegan 11-10-06, 09:49 PM	It do. Semantics are funz.
Aerunation 11-11-06, 12:51 AM	seems to me that heart would modify will saves, and not wisdom, with this set up, and heart should also be the casting stat for clerics. did you see the original post in this thread? It states that heart may be used instead of wisdom for will saves vs fear. Also, I added a feat to allow your heart mod to determine will save instead of wisdom(then wis and hrt stack vs fear effects).
theotherdraxen 11-12-06, 11:51 PM	It do. Semantics are funz. I wish 'semantic' had some synonyms... did you see the original post in this thread? It states that heart may be used instead of wisdom for will saves vs fear. Also, I added a feat to allow your heart mod to determine will save instead of wisdom(then wis and hrt stack vs fear effects). Wait, how are you getting that stacking effect? Heart goes against fearlessness *instead* of wisdom if it's higher, right? So why does taking the feat that lets you apply heart to will saves allow you to apply both wisdom and heart against fear?
Aerunation 11-13-06, 07:20 PM	I wish 'semantic' had some synonyms... Wait, how are you getting that stacking effect? Heart goes against fearlessness *instead* of wisdom if it's higher, right? So why does taking the feat that lets you apply heart to will saves allow you to apply both wisdom and heart against fear? ...because it's a feat with a positive effect just like any other feat. The feat makes you less vulnerable to fear effects as being strong of heart also gives you courage.
theotherdraxen 11-13-06, 09:24 PM	Oh, I missed the special note at the bottom of the feat.