New AC option [Archive] - Wizards Community

New AC option [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Shike
11-06-05, 12:49 PM I was wondering if there was an option for using Armor as DR (like AC bonus/adamantine or something) and adding a fraction (such as BAB/2) to AC to represent a character's training w/ weapons in dealing with armorclass. (not getting hit). What do you guys think?
caeruleus
11-06-05, 12:51 PM Sounds good. I've done something like that in one campaign.
Shike
11-06-05, 12:52 PM here is my not so complete Idea

Armor (Grants DR as armor bonus/adamantine, or -)

AC= 10+Dex+1/2BAB+Deflection+(Special abilities such as monks wis, or dualist int etc)-Armor check penalty.

This way you can play the lightly armored fighter (which has always been my preference) and still be able to stand up agains the heavily armored fighter
Xeviat-DM
11-06-05, 03:51 PM Armor as DR, combined with adding one AC to medium armor and 1 AC and 1 DR to heavy armor, is what I do in my campaign. Then again, I have added ability scores so to hit is all Dex and damage is all Str, so I don't have to worry about so many characters having rediculous damage and to hit.

I used to think parrying rules would be nice (AoO to block attack with opposed attack roll), but now I think that parrying is perfectly well covered with the current AC feats (combat expertise, two weapon defense, and what not). I do think that tactical/light fighters could get an advantage when doing such (a varient on defensive strike, where if you use combat expertise against an opponent who then misses you with all of their attacks made against you, you gain a +4 to hit bonus against them on your following action).

But I also think that combat expertise should be it's own kind of AC bonus, a parry bonus, and shouldn't apply to touch AC (since if someone could touch your shield or armor with a ray, why not your sword?).
FlameLover
11-06-05, 06:08 PM In Iron Heroes armour is DR but instead of a fixed number is a die roll (padded gives just 1 so I guess that's a lie but it's an exeption ;) ) anyway it means only one class in the game uses armour (the armigar who is weak even with heavy armour). So making armour DR isn't good if you still want people to use armour but is quite nice if you do want them too. Ofcourse armour gets more useless as levels increase because of how much damage goes up by level so i'd make the DR scaling. Having light armour give 1DR/3levels, medium 1DR/2levels and heavy 1DR/level sounds about right to me (although 20 DR at level 20 is *abit* much... ohwell i'm sure the numbers could be worked on).
Gilean
11-07-05, 09:59 AM Its not merely 1 DR, it is, in fact, 1d1. Though, in this case, the minimum, the maximum, and the average result are all 1, so it doesn't actually matter.

Shike, one change of the variant that is popular is to reduce check penalty from the BAB/2 defence bonus.
loaba
11-09-05, 05:19 PM Here is the table I am currently testing in my game.

Armor and Shields (expanded)
with Damage Reduction rev. 8

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Armor Arm Dex Damage Reduction
Type Cost Bns Bns S P B Hrd Lbs

Light Armor ----------------------------------------------------------

Padded 5gp +1 +8 none none none 2 10
Leather 10gp +1 +6 1 1 1 2 15
MWK Studded Leather 175gp +2 +5 2 1 none 2 20
MWK Chain Shirt 250gp +2 +4 4 1 1 10 25
Mithral Chain Shirt 1100gp +2 +6 4 1 1 15 12.5
Mithral Scale mail 4050gp +2 +5 1 1 4 15 15
Mithral Chainmail 4150gp +3 +4 4 1 1 15 20
Mithral Breastplate 4200gp +3 +5 1 4 1 15 15
Adamantine Chain Shirt 5100gp +2 +4 5 2 2 20 25

Medium Armor ----------------------------------------------------------

MWK Hide 165gp +2 +4 1 1 1 2 25
MWK Scale mail 200gp +2 +3 1 1 4 10 30
MWK Chainmail 300gp +3 +2 4 1 1 10 40
MWK Breastplate 350gp +3 +3 1 4 4 10 30
Dragonhide 330gp +2 +4 1 1 1 10 25
Mithral Banded mail 9250gp +3 +3 2 5 2 15 17.5
Mithral Half-plate 9600gp +4 +2 5 2 2 15 25
Mithral Full plate 10500gp +4 +3 6 3 3 15 25
Adamantine Scale mail 10050gp +2 +3 2 2 5 20 30
Adamantine Chainmail 10150gp +3 +2 5 2 2 20 40
Adamantine Breastplate 10200gp +3 +3 2 5 2 20 30

Heavy Armor -----------------------------------------------------------

MWK Splint mail 350gp +3 -- 2 2 5 10 45
MWK Banded mail 400gp +3 +1 2 5 2 10 35
MWK Half-plate 750gp +4 -- 5 2 2 10 50
MWK Full Plate 1650gp +4 +1 6 3 3 10 50
Adamantine Splint mail 15200gp +3 -- 3 3 6 20 45
Adamantine Banded mail 15250gp +3 +1 3 6 3 20 35
Adamantine Half-plate 15600gp +4 -- 5 3 3 20 50
Adamantine Full plate 16500gp +4 +1 7 4 4 20 50

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I am using the formula for adjusting AC and finding overall DR as per the UA but with a slight variation. I have taken the overall DR rating for a given armor and multiplied it by 3 and then redistributed the value among the three damage types (slashing, piercing and bludgeoning).

This new mechanic harkens back to the Weapon Type vs Armor Type mechanic from 1e and 2e.

EDIT: I also altered the effects of adamantium DR. Instead of 1-3 value, I went with global +1 DR to all adamantine armor types.
Shike
11-09-05, 09:22 PM Here's the Idea.

The idea I had is that armor gives a percentage DR compaired to it's original armor. +5% DR per +1 AC. Thus as characters get higher in level, the percentage of damage they are taking is the same.

And then adding 1/2 BAB (rounded down) as an AC bonus. This bonus is subject 1/2 to the normal armor check penalty. So a 10th lvl fighter w/ a +10 BAB would get a +5 AC bonus, and wearing full plate would actualy only take 60% of whatever damage was delt to them at the point as well as penalty to AC equal to the 1/2 of the Armor Check penalty. Thus he would have a 40% DR, as well as getting a +2 to AC (derived from BAB). Shields still grant bonuses to AC and their Check Penalty doesn't affect the AC bonus from BAB.

I know it probably has wrinkles, but what do you think??
Shike
11-14-05, 01:17 PM :bump:
Vapthorne
11-14-05, 01:55 PM Here's the Idea.

The idea I had is that armor gives a percentage DR compaired to it's original armor. +5% DR per +1 AC. Thus as characters get higher in level, the percentage of damage they are taking is the same.

And then adding 1/2 BAB (rounded down) as an AC bonus. This bonus is subject 1/2 to the normal armor check penalty. So a 10th lvl fighter w/ a +10 BAB would get a +5 AC bonus, and wearing full plate would actualy only take 60% of whatever damage was delt to them at the point as well as penalty to AC equal to the 1/2 of the Armor Check penalty. Thus he would have a 40% DR, as well as getting a +2 to AC (derived from BAB). Shields still grant bonuses to AC and their Check Penalty doesn't affect the AC bonus from BAB.

I know it probably has wrinkles, but what do you think??

I'm looking at this, and part of me is going 'huh?'. If I can offer my critic, I think this AC option has some flaws.

First, I cannot understand how an Armor's DR can improve over level, or can even work off a percentage. The way this sounds, a suit of armor will shrug 25% of a blow from say. both a dragon's claw (say 20 points originally, now 15) and a goblin's spear (4 points, now 3) equally? Logically, if that armor can take a dragon's claw, then a goblin's weapon should not dent it.

Second, apply the armor's armor check penality to AC is... well, it just defeats the purpose of having armor.

Not trying to be rude, but in my opinion this AC system is overly complicated where it does not need to be. If you want a different AC options, then the varients present in Unearthed Arcana has what you're looking for.

Armor as Damage Reduction (http://d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/armorAsDamageReduction.htm)

and

Defense Bonus (http://d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm)

Now you can combined these two if you want.

And, if you want a guideline to improve an armor's DR then (even though it says that you shouldn't) you can apply a magic armor's enchantment bonus to DR not AC. Example, a +3 studded leather armor will confer an AC +2 and DR 4/-. Just my thoughts.
Prince Indirian
11-14-05, 08:27 PM Why not do as somebody else mentiond before , with the DR dice. Let the AC determine the DR. For example Full Plate usually grants +8 AC. Now its DR is 1d8/- and lets enchantments to the armor stack, so that a +5 full plate grants 13 DR at most and 6 DR as least. And Utilise the Defense bonus system in the Unearhted Arcana. Tell me if its to weak or so.

Good Luck.
Shike
11-14-05, 08:44 PM There are two reasons I went this rout. The first is, I've been playing a game in the HERO system where damage reduction is percentage based. The reason I went percentage based is (on the a different forum) someone brought of the problem of scaleability. As you get higher in levels you end up fighting things that deal greater damage. As BAB and AC are somewhat Static, damage isn't.

The other reason is I don't have unearthed arcana and thus cannot use these rules. I cannot afford unearthed arcana as i work partime and have a 9 month old son. and as much as I wish I could have unearthed arcana, unfortunately, i probably won't happen. :)

As to the dr rules using a die the same as the ac bonus, I like this. It makes sense to me. but what do you do for the armor that grants +5 and such.

As for the Defense rules, could someone explain them or am I going to have to go to barnes and noble, copy out of the book and then put the book back on the shelf? :plotting:

Any ways. Thank you very much for the comments and suggestions. I greatly appreciate them. Any help is good help when changing a roleplaying system.

Cheers :pint:
Prince Indirian
11-14-05, 08:52 PM There are two reasons I went this rout. The first is, I've been playing a game in the HERO system where damage reduction is percentage based. The reason I went percentage based is (on the a different forum) someone brought of the problem of scaleability. As you get higher in levels you end up fighting things that deal greater damage. As BAB and AC are somewhat Static, damage isn't.

The other reason is I don't have unearthed arcana and thus cannot use these rules. I cannot afford unearthed arcana as i work partime and have a 9 month old son. and as much as I wish I could have unearthed arcana, unfortunately, i probably won't happen. :)

As to the dr rules using a die the same as the ac bonus, I like this. It makes sense to me. but what do you do for the armor that grants +5 and such.

As for the Defense rules, could someone explain them or am I going to have to go to barnes and noble, copy out of the book and then put the book back on the shelf? :plotting:

Any ways. Thank you very much for the comments and suggestions. I greatly appreciate them. Any help is good help when changing a roleplaying system.

Cheers :pint:

Google, search SRD, you should come to a site with some nice stuff. It is an inline stuff with all you need.
Vapthorne
11-15-05, 07:58 PM Google, search SRD, you should come to a site with some nice stuff. It is an inline stuff with all you need.

Just to note. Those links on Defense Bonus and DR are from the SRD Here (http://d20srd.org/). These have some of the varient rules from Unearthed Arcana for those DMs with a budget. :)
loaba
11-15-05, 08:15 PM Tested my Armor as Type DR varient this weekend, worked out nicely.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shike 11-06-05, 12:49 PM	I was wondering if there was an option for using Armor as DR (like AC bonus/adamantine or something) and adding a fraction (such as BAB/2) to AC to represent a character's training w/ weapons in dealing with armorclass. (not getting hit). What do you guys think?
caeruleus 11-06-05, 12:51 PM	Sounds good. I've done something like that in one campaign.
Shike 11-06-05, 12:52 PM	here is my not so complete Idea Armor (Grants DR as armor bonus/adamantine, or -) AC= 10+Dex+1/2BAB+Deflection+(Special abilities such as monks wis, or dualist int etc)-Armor check penalty. This way you can play the lightly armored fighter (which has always been my preference) and still be able to stand up agains the heavily armored fighter
Xeviat-DM 11-06-05, 03:51 PM	Armor as DR, combined with adding one AC to medium armor and 1 AC and 1 DR to heavy armor, is what I do in my campaign. Then again, I have added ability scores so to hit is all Dex and damage is all Str, so I don't have to worry about so many characters having rediculous damage and to hit. I used to think parrying rules would be nice (AoO to block attack with opposed attack roll), but now I think that parrying is perfectly well covered with the current AC feats (combat expertise, two weapon defense, and what not). I do think that tactical/light fighters could get an advantage when doing such (a varient on defensive strike, where if you use combat expertise against an opponent who then misses you with all of their attacks made against you, you gain a +4 to hit bonus against them on your following action). But I also think that combat expertise should be it's own kind of AC bonus, a parry bonus, and shouldn't apply to touch AC (since if someone could touch your shield or armor with a ray, why not your sword?).
FlameLover 11-06-05, 06:08 PM	In Iron Heroes armour is DR but instead of a fixed number is a die roll (padded gives just 1 so I guess that's a lie but it's an exeption ;) ) anyway it means only one class in the game uses armour (the armigar who is weak even with heavy armour). So making armour DR isn't good if you still want people to use armour but is quite nice if you do want them too. Ofcourse armour gets more useless as levels increase because of how much damage goes up by level so i'd make the DR scaling. Having light armour give 1DR/3levels, medium 1DR/2levels and heavy 1DR/level sounds about right to me (although 20 DR at level 20 is abit much... ohwell i'm sure the numbers could be worked on).
Gilean 11-07-05, 09:59 AM	Its not merely 1 DR, it is, in fact, 1d1. Though, in this case, the minimum, the maximum, and the average result are all 1, so it doesn't actually matter. Shike, one change of the variant that is popular is to reduce check penalty from the BAB/2 defence bonus.
loaba 11-09-05, 05:19 PM	Here is the table I am currently testing in my game. Armor and Shields (expanded) with Damage Reduction rev. 8 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Armor Arm Dex Damage Reduction Type Cost Bns Bns S P B Hrd Lbs Light Armor ---------------------------------------------------------- Padded 5gp +1 +8 none none none 2 10 Leather 10gp +1 +6 1 1 1 2 15 MWK Studded Leather 175gp +2 +5 2 1 none 2 20 MWK Chain Shirt 250gp +2 +4 4 1 1 10 25 Mithral Chain Shirt 1100gp +2 +6 4 1 1 15 12.5 Mithral Scale mail 4050gp +2 +5 1 1 4 15 15 Mithral Chainmail 4150gp +3 +4 4 1 1 15 20 Mithral Breastplate 4200gp +3 +5 1 4 1 15 15 Adamantine Chain Shirt 5100gp +2 +4 5 2 2 20 25 Medium Armor ---------------------------------------------------------- MWK Hide 165gp +2 +4 1 1 1 2 25 MWK Scale mail 200gp +2 +3 1 1 4 10 30 MWK Chainmail 300gp +3 +2 4 1 1 10 40 MWK Breastplate 350gp +3 +3 1 4 4 10 30 Dragonhide 330gp +2 +4 1 1 1 10 25 Mithral Banded mail 9250gp +3 +3 2 5 2 15 17.5 Mithral Half-plate 9600gp +4 +2 5 2 2 15 25 Mithral Full plate 10500gp +4 +3 6 3 3 15 25 Adamantine Scale mail 10050gp +2 +3 2 2 5 20 30 Adamantine Chainmail 10150gp +3 +2 5 2 2 20 40 Adamantine Breastplate 10200gp +3 +3 2 5 2 20 30 Heavy Armor ----------------------------------------------------------- MWK Splint mail 350gp +3 -- 2 2 5 10 45 MWK Banded mail 400gp +3 +1 2 5 2 10 35 MWK Half-plate 750gp +4 -- 5 2 2 10 50 MWK Full Plate 1650gp +4 +1 6 3 3 10 50 Adamantine Splint mail 15200gp +3 -- 3 3 6 20 45 Adamantine Banded mail 15250gp +3 +1 3 6 3 20 35 Adamantine Half-plate 15600gp +4 -- 5 3 3 20 50 Adamantine Full plate 16500gp +4 +1 7 4 4 20 50 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- I am using the formula for adjusting AC and finding overall DR as per the UA but with a slight variation. I have taken the overall DR rating for a given armor and multiplied it by 3 and then redistributed the value among the three damage types (slashing, piercing and bludgeoning). This new mechanic harkens back to the Weapon Type vs Armor Type mechanic from 1e and 2e. EDIT: I also altered the effects of adamantium DR. Instead of 1-3 value, I went with global +1 DR to all adamantine armor types.
Shike 11-09-05, 09:22 PM	Here's the Idea. The idea I had is that armor gives a percentage DR compaired to it's original armor. +5% DR per +1 AC. Thus as characters get higher in level, the percentage of damage they are taking is the same. And then adding 1/2 BAB (rounded down) as an AC bonus. This bonus is subject 1/2 to the normal armor check penalty. So a 10th lvl fighter w/ a +10 BAB would get a +5 AC bonus, and wearing full plate would actualy only take 60% of whatever damage was delt to them at the point as well as penalty to AC equal to the 1/2 of the Armor Check penalty. Thus he would have a 40% DR, as well as getting a +2 to AC (derived from BAB). Shields still grant bonuses to AC and their Check Penalty doesn't affect the AC bonus from BAB. I know it probably has wrinkles, but what do you think??
Shike 11-14-05, 01:17 PM	:bump:
Vapthorne 11-14-05, 01:55 PM	Here's the Idea. The idea I had is that armor gives a percentage DR compaired to it's original armor. +5% DR per +1 AC. Thus as characters get higher in level, the percentage of damage they are taking is the same. And then adding 1/2 BAB (rounded down) as an AC bonus. This bonus is subject 1/2 to the normal armor check penalty. So a 10th lvl fighter w/ a +10 BAB would get a +5 AC bonus, and wearing full plate would actualy only take 60% of whatever damage was delt to them at the point as well as penalty to AC equal to the 1/2 of the Armor Check penalty. Thus he would have a 40% DR, as well as getting a +2 to AC (derived from BAB). Shields still grant bonuses to AC and their Check Penalty doesn't affect the AC bonus from BAB. I know it probably has wrinkles, but what do you think?? I'm looking at this, and part of me is going 'huh?'. If I can offer my critic, I think this AC option has some flaws. First, I cannot understand how an Armor's DR can improve over level, or can even work off a percentage. The way this sounds, a suit of armor will shrug 25% of a blow from say. both a dragon's claw (say 20 points originally, now 15) and a goblin's spear (4 points, now 3) equally? Logically, if that armor can take a dragon's claw, then a goblin's weapon should not dent it. Second, apply the armor's armor check penality to AC is... well, it just defeats the purpose of having armor. Not trying to be rude, but in my opinion this AC system is overly complicated where it does not need to be. If you want a different AC options, then the varients present in Unearthed Arcana has what you're looking for. Armor as Damage Reduction (http://d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/armorAsDamageReduction.htm) and Defense Bonus (http://d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm) Now you can combined these two if you want. And, if you want a guideline to improve an armor's DR then (even though it says that you shouldn't) you can apply a magic armor's enchantment bonus to DR not AC. Example, a +3 studded leather armor will confer an AC +2 and DR 4/-. Just my thoughts.
Prince Indirian 11-14-05, 08:27 PM	Why not do as somebody else mentiond before , with the DR dice. Let the AC determine the DR. For example Full Plate usually grants +8 AC. Now its DR is 1d8/- and lets enchantments to the armor stack, so that a +5 full plate grants 13 DR at most and 6 DR as least. And Utilise the Defense bonus system in the Unearhted Arcana. Tell me if its to weak or so. Good Luck.
Shike 11-14-05, 08:44 PM	There are two reasons I went this rout. The first is, I've been playing a game in the HERO system where damage reduction is percentage based. The reason I went percentage based is (on the a different forum) someone brought of the problem of scaleability. As you get higher in levels you end up fighting things that deal greater damage. As BAB and AC are somewhat Static, damage isn't. The other reason is I don't have unearthed arcana and thus cannot use these rules. I cannot afford unearthed arcana as i work partime and have a 9 month old son. and as much as I wish I could have unearthed arcana, unfortunately, i probably won't happen. :) As to the dr rules using a die the same as the ac bonus, I like this. It makes sense to me. but what do you do for the armor that grants +5 and such. As for the Defense rules, could someone explain them or am I going to have to go to barnes and noble, copy out of the book and then put the book back on the shelf? :plotting: Any ways. Thank you very much for the comments and suggestions. I greatly appreciate them. Any help is good help when changing a roleplaying system. Cheers :pint:
Prince Indirian 11-14-05, 08:52 PM	There are two reasons I went this rout. The first is, I've been playing a game in the HERO system where damage reduction is percentage based. The reason I went percentage based is (on the a different forum) someone brought of the problem of scaleability. As you get higher in levels you end up fighting things that deal greater damage. As BAB and AC are somewhat Static, damage isn't. The other reason is I don't have unearthed arcana and thus cannot use these rules. I cannot afford unearthed arcana as i work partime and have a 9 month old son. and as much as I wish I could have unearthed arcana, unfortunately, i probably won't happen. :) As to the dr rules using a die the same as the ac bonus, I like this. It makes sense to me. but what do you do for the armor that grants +5 and such. As for the Defense rules, could someone explain them or am I going to have to go to barnes and noble, copy out of the book and then put the book back on the shelf? :plotting: Any ways. Thank you very much for the comments and suggestions. I greatly appreciate them. Any help is good help when changing a roleplaying system. Cheers :pint: Google, search SRD, you should come to a site with some nice stuff. It is an inline stuff with all you need.
Vapthorne 11-15-05, 07:58 PM	Google, search SRD, you should come to a site with some nice stuff. It is an inline stuff with all you need. Just to note. Those links on Defense Bonus and DR are from the SRD Here (http://d20srd.org/). These have some of the varient rules from Unearthed Arcana for those DMs with a budget. :)
loaba 11-15-05, 08:15 PM	Tested my Armor as Type DR varient this weekend, worked out nicely.